Stosh

Got me thinking.... Webelos in blue shirt wears blue uniform pants and belt. If the Webelos changes over to the tan shirt, do they wear cub or scout pants and with what belt? I don't think I've ever seen any uniform guidance on this unless it's the cub inspection form and I don't remember reading anything about the full uniform, only the shirt change. Thanks Stosh

Do they have a potty-trained belt loop? How about cell-phone thumb texting belt loop? Or maybe a TV marathon belt loop? Just checking.... Stosh

Hmmm, I wonder what would happen if a boy showed up for a football game without his uniform pants, or a soccer game, or a parade if his band was marching? Or if the police wore blue jeans, or combat soldiers had Wal-Mart knock offs? If a scout can't afford a full uniform, he wears civies. This half-way attempt is sending the message that a job half-done is okay. Hey, if I wear blue jeans to work on days not designated as jeans days, I will be sent home to change, and my pay will be docked for the time. A scout is Thrifty. Get off the sofa and away from the computer and go out rake a few lawns, run some errands for a neighbor, or shovel some walks, but it's not a hardship to expect the boys to wear a complete uniform because a half-hearted attempt just doesn't cut it. My Venturing boys cough up $1200 for full gear and don't complain one bit. A $15 pair of E-Bay pants isn't asking too much of anyone. After all $15 is about the cost the boys would kick in for on a Camporee. It's not the cost that is the problem, it's the attitude. Stosh

And so that brings back the original question. If the requirement has been marked off by the PL, can it be recinded by the SM? Stosh

I don't expect my boys to pull leadership out of the air. They are given numerous SM conferences that allow the boys to receive suggestions, ideas, and opportunities. If they need help or what to try something off the wall, the SM backs them 100% even if it won't work. (Hey, sometimes hair-brained ideas DO work!) After 3 months of prodding, the other patrol organized an open house, put together a program, went over to the Den meeting and had a great time with the boys which then came to join up with that patrol. That patrol was large and had to split and the NSP picked someone other than the designated PL who hadn't done anything. He knew the other patrol would have worked with him to get the recruiting done, but when they invited him in on the process he told them it wouldn't be necessary. Boys today know that if they stand around with their hands in their pockets and something has to be done if given enough time, an adult will step in and take over. With a boy-led program, the other boys stepped in to help and ended up taking over because the boy wouldn't take his hands out of his pockets. I can only offer opportunities, I can't make the boys take hold of them. Now he's faced with having to explain this all to the Life BOR next week. (No this is not a young boy that doesn't know how the system works, he's just not interested in doing the work.) It's not the end of the world and he's still young. There will be more opportunity, but quick signing off for a no-show job isn't going to endear him to the BOR's and that's a lesson he'll be getting next week. And yes, the boy's father is aware of the situation and doesn't have a problem with how it's being handled. Stosh

If it was just a letter, I could possibly suck it up and write something, but what they sent me was a fill-in the blank questionnaire that has check off boxes. The last line indicates that "I heartily recommend this Scout for the rank of Eagle." Now, if I start crossing off things, it's going to look a little suspicious. Or worse yet, if I send in a water downed letter instead, it's going to look a little suspicious. If I don't send anything in, it's going to look a little suspicious. After seeking advice from the parents, CC, UC, DE and Eagle Committee Chair, it's going to look a little suspicious. If the last line of the letter doesn't say "I heartily recommend this Scout for the rank of Eagle", it's going to look a little suspicious. Not many options here, is there? In light of all this, the DE said I had grounds for kicking the boy out of scouts completely, but said that if the UC and Eagle Committee Chair will cut 6 months slack the Council will back that option. Don't cha just love these cans of worms? Personally, I appreciate the option to give the boy yet another chance. Maybe this time something will sink in. Stosh

When I was a youth scout, both Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts we all wore full uniforms with belts hat (blue w/yellow stripes, and garrison cap) and socks. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

He didn't make any effort to recruit, talk, interact, call, any of the Webelos boys eligible to cross-over. I would have kinda expected him to at least make a token effort, but I can't even say that much. Stosh

The point that this discussion all falls back to is whether or not the SM can block an EBOR. I think the EBOR has total responsibility for this process and all the boxes for the boy are checked. He has done just enough to fulfill all his requirements, so it should be a done deal regardless of what the SM says either pro or con, but they won't unless I give a positive recommendation which I can't. All these requirements are sometimes vague. Demonstrate leadership... well he completed his project but I don't know if he did anything to really show leadership except delegating all the work off to others. When he was PL is patrol didn't fall apart, so he must have been successful by default. Everything he does in terms of leadership is either nothing or getting someone else to do it. That's kinda leadership by some people's definition. So he got all the boxes checked. He didn't fail the requirements but he is well below average if one had to put a grade on it. I would grade him maybe a solid D or a D-. He's a A+ student in school. On the other hand I have another boy that when his recommendation form comes through I can sign it with all capital letters and a couple of exclamation points to go along with it. Am I playing favorites? Nope. These two boys are best of friends and the one boy can't figure it out either and has often commented about having to do the heavy lifting for this other boy to help get him through. I'm not ready to write this boy off and yet how does one communicate all of this to the EBOR who is expecting more than the BSA requirements state? It's not my call, don't ask me to make it. Stosh

The neckers we make are bigger than the 34" square of the true flag. Because I personally make them, I found it easier to do the math (hate math!) to go with 36" square with a 12" red square in the center. The bigger size also makes a better necker, but more difficult to get through a standard slide. The necker at that size hangs to just above the waistline. I also make the Turks' Head slides to go with it and make it big enough to fit the extra material. The extra size makes it easier to fasten to their 6' walking staves with their shoe strings/cords using the sheet-bend knot. When we are in massive groups of other scouts taking their rank neckers off and replacing with troop neckers they fix their flag to their staves and the adults can see them in the sea of tan shirts! The SPL can also see all the PL's in the crowd too by looking around for the flag on the staves. My SPL has a second flag above the Meyer's flag which is the traditional patrol flag white bullet with 3 green stripes on it. My ASPL has a second flag white bullet with 2 1/2 green stripes on it. I carry a white bullet flag on my staff that has the old red/black Beaver patrol emblem on it (WB-Beaver) so my boys know where I am as well. I can spot my boys a mile away with the system. If it has an extra flag at the top it's my SPL or ASPL. At my age I can't always tell the length of the third stripe without telescope. Neckers should be more than ornamental, they should be functional. Stosh

The minute BSA said a uniform was optional. Stosh

Being boy-led, our PL's sign off on their patrol member's advancement. One boy requested a POR and with Webelos cross-over at hand, asked if he could be PL and recruit a new patrol using the Webelos boys and their friends that may not have been in scouting. I thought it was a good idea. Well, he did absolutely nothing. But he was collecting POR for his own advancement and when his time was up the SPL signed him off on advancement. The SPL signs off on all PL advancement. The SM signs off on the SPL advancement. During the SM conference a discussion on this issue came up, of course. Well, the book was signed. What's the next step? Stosh

This situation is not unique to BSA and the Eagle process. Imagine for a moment a high school principal is faced with providing a recommendation for two students. Student 1 has a 4.0 GPA and has involved himself in a ton of extra-cirricular activities/sports and is a shining example of what anyone would want from a high school career. Student 2 has a 1.0 GPA, done all the work, did no extra-cirricular activities and for the most part everyone is in agreement that he at least did the minimum work to pass. They are both high school graduates with diplomas in hand. Would you "heartedly recommend" Student 1 for any college? Would you "heartedly recommend" Student 2 for the same? I'm sure that in 99.9% of the cases, the principal would hesitate and have reservations about Student 2. Yes, this boy has a 1.0 GPA in scouting. The EBOR has a responsibility to make the call, but they won't even consider it without a SM recommendation. By asking for an extention of time, does it help the boy and keep his options open? It is not the responsibility of the SM to "make the call". But in our Council the "rules" are not fair to the boy or the SM in this situation. Stosh

Our camporees tend to be so competition/trophy oriented that some troops will go to any and all lengths to "take home the prize". This becomes a turn-off for the other troops. If one is trying to promote patrol-method, why not register and assign camping as patrols instead of troops. Too often ad hoc patrols are formed by troops the morning of the competition, wishing to win it all and their older boys get the glory and their younger boys are left out to dry. Troop-method units will need to at least consider a balance of patrols so everything remains an even playing field especially in the campsites where real patrol dynamics come into play. Instead of such a focus on competition, why not adopt a University of Scouting approach to the camporee, offering instruction on a variety of different levels where patrols can go to develop their team-work skills and coordinate a patrol program rather than compete troop to troop. Like schools with different divisional levels depending on size and make up of schools, why not rank patrols into various divisions. Take the age of each patrol member and come up with an average. Have 7 divisions, one for every year of scouting. If you have a NSP and the average age is 11.1 they compete in Division 1, if the second year boys average 12.3, they are in division 2. If it's a mixed patrol, their age average dictates their division and a troop can't put a ringer patrol in to wipe out all competition. This means 8 17 year-olds don't compete with 8 11 year-olds. And it doesn't mean a mixed patrol of 17 year-olds and 11 year olds will be at any advantage or disadvantage. 4 17 year olds and 4 11 year olds averages out to 14, or Division 4. By leveling the playing field, each troop registers their patrols individually, mixed patrols will find this a good way to engage boys of all ages in the day-to-day operation of the camp and not be penalized in competions. NSP's will need more adult supervision, but the older scout patrols will not need much, if any. "Classes" for the camporee would be designed on the division basis offering 101 classes for the NSP and 701 for the advanced patrols. These all could be the same class taught by the same person - i.e. Fire Building, where Fire Building 101 would be how to collect tinder, kindling and do fire lays, teepee, hunters, etc. and Fire Building 701 would be how to make charcloth and start fire with flint and steel. This would not be for individuals to sign up for, but patrols, so that discussion and teamwork would go into the selection of classes process. One could also have a graded "test" at the end of the class which would accumulate into a GPA for competition purposes. That way if the younger boys come in taking the process seriously they might get a better "grade" than an older boy patrol that comes in an screws around. Just some ideas of what I would think a productive camporee be and what might encourage better participation. Maybe some of the new young troops will have a chance against the 75 year old troop in the next town and be more inclined to bring their patrols of 1 - 2 year boys. Stosh

John: Everyone is on board with this issue and a lot of communication is floating around from first-hand sources...me. I, of course, believe that the boy has in fact gone through all the motions to get by and earn his Eagle. Not the problem. The problem is: the Eagle Committee is expecting me to sign a letter of reference that states "I heartily recommend this boy for the rank of Eagle." Well, I can't. I can assure everyone that he has gone through all the motions and met all the requirements, but then don't ask me to "heartily recommend" him. That's adding to the requirements. However, if I don't "heartily recommend" him he won't get an EBOR. I know that during the EBOR the interviewers excuse the boy and then visit with the SM and ask for his recommendation. I was going to simply state that the boy has gone through all the motions and met all the requirements for the rank of Eagle. From the records as they have been recorded, I can honestly make that statement. But at that point the EBOR has already convened and the decision would be at their discretion. However, the issue has been dropped in my lap prior to convening the EBOR and won't give him an opportunity without my recommendation and I become the fall-guy. 1) If I toss the letter, no EBOR.... Problem solved for me but screws over the boy. 2) Lie and sign it... Good example of honest leadership? 3) Postpone signing it until the issues that are bothering me get resolved. 4) Convene the EBOR without SM's hearty recommendation. #1 isn't fair to the boy. #2 isn't fair to me. #3 is a valid compromise. #4 Eagle committee can take responsibility for the award they are considering giving, and leave the SM off the hook. Maybe this is why National doesn't want councils/troops adding to the requirements. Stosh

When I did Webelos I, I totally blew away the parents when I announced that we will meet weekly and that would include the summer months. Some put their foot down and said that was too much and so I said, not a problem, come when you can. It took about a month and the boys all wanted to come weekly and with all the plans we were making for the summer hikes, outings, etc. they weren't going to miss out on any of it. All the boys had AOL in 1 year and the second year we just went out and had fun using the skills we had learned. The boys took great pride in wearing their AOL for a long time before crossing-over. It made it clear that AOL and Cross-over were two entirely different issues. Although a Pack may have a tradition of a 9-month calendar, an individual den leader can make adjustments. Typical month: 1 meeting was the Pack Meeting 2 meetings were fun events (focused around advancement) 1 meeting was planning, "Hey, guys, what do you want to do next month?, where should we go to have fun? etc." During the summer the pack didn't meet (nor did the other dens) but we were out there hiking, biking, etc. doing all the stuff you couldn't do because in the winter it's too cold. Stosh

My high level scouts wear the Meyer's Flag for a necker. It's the white square flag with the red smaller square in the middle, used for single flag signaling. I as well prefer the 4 corner necker, it is far more practical than the triangle. The only drawback on the 4 corner necker is the double material make them quite warm in the summer months. I notice the boys wear them tight in the winter and wear them looser in the summer. I don't have a problem with that. Stosh

John: The parents of the boy are aware of the wait. My CC is aware of the wait. My Committee is aware of the wait. My UC is aware of the wait. My DE is aware of the wait. The Committee Chair for Eagle Review is aware of the wait. The suggestion for waiting came from both the UC and Council's Committee Chair on Eagle Reviews. There is no way that the action I've taken can in anyway be perceived as vindictive against the boy. The only person as of yet that doesn't know about this is the boy himself. He has arranged a sit-down meeting with me to discuss this whole issue and I didn't want to go into that meeting unsure of my options in dealing with him and I surely didn't want to go into that meeting without the advice and insight of all those listed above. The universal consensus of everyone is that the boy needs time to develop a bit more and all are hoping this will catch his attention and wake him up a bit. A flat out "NO" requires no time limit, a second chance for the boy does. Everyone, including me, wants this boy to be successful and have the Eagle, this is why everyone is going the extra mile to make it a possible option for the boy. Stosh

Gee, my boys like the old red-piped pocket pants that button shut. Things don't fall out. The garrison cap fits nicely into the pants pocket or tucks in belt. E-Bay provides scouts with lots of uniforms for about 1/3rd the price of National. Some of my boys (new boys) do wear the new uniform and that's great. Most don't. One of my boys is very hard on uniforms and totally destroyed one of the new ones in about a year's time. Mom and Dad weren't happy. He is now wearing an old all green uniform, the dirt doesn't show as bad as the tan shirts. If it says BSA on it and is economical, durable and practical, the boys are allowed to wear it. They tend to wear the older uniforms. Stosh

As long as the boy wears a necker, he's good to go. Some go over, some under, and it's a larger necker (custom made) so it doesn't matter. My SPL and ASPL wear a different colored necker so I can spot them quickly, and I wear my Wood Badge necker or tie. Our boys are taught that the necker is a tool to be used in place of a towel on campouts and for First Aid. Some are rolled, some are folded, some are gathered, but they all wear them and that in and of itself a step ahead of a lot of troops. One patrol recently started wearing them all the same - over the collar so maybe in time the "tradition" of uniformity will catch on. I still have 2 hold outs that do not wear BSA belts, but maybe that will change as well, too. Stosh

Okay, how about the SM who calls the council and says he will be holding the reference letter for 6 months to give the boy a chance to mature properly in developing some leadership to justify the rank of Eagle? (The boy just turned 16 so aging out isn't a problem.) Stosh

1 year before a boy turns 18 I have a SM conference with him. I flat out ask him if he wishes me to kick him before he turns 18 or would he prefer to do it himself after he turns 18. I warn him that it's not my project, nor my Eagle, nor my job to keep him on task, and then visit with him about once a month on how he's progressing. Stosh

kenk: I was thinking along the same lines but didn't want to be so blunt, but that approach might work for those with the thicker skulls. I often remind my boys that ignorant men don't know many words and thus supplement with explatives. An articulate man doesn't need to. Stosh

gwd-scouter: I'm not on the forum to seek agreement, everyone at one time or another disagrees and agrees with everyone else's postings. The only common thread that runs throughout every post posted is that there are a whole ton of people out there that care about their boys and basically that's the only score I keep. Stosh

Would have, should have, could have, are all alternative options, but with the confusion of the meeting wrapping up, the parents all picked up their boys and headed out and before we realized what had happened, it was too late. So the cards were dealt, and not all are winning hands. The key mixup was with the boy and his parent driving two different vehicles and the parent left. By the way the parent should have, would have, could have known better because he is the former SM and current CC of the troop. We both messed up as did the boy. Stosh