Stosh

Yes, I was questioned before and after the BOR as to why this candidate was presented to the BOR unprepared. I explained and they are in the process of further clarification on who signs off on which requirements. Scout Spirit, POR, and SM Conferences will now be signed off by the SM and not the PL. Yes, the BOR is in recess. They felt the scout needed more time and directed him to visit with the SM as to what he might be able to do to satisfy the BOR recommendations. So to answer the question, Yes, I'm the one responsbile for helping the scout "get better". His "crakcerjack" brother was the PL who signed him off in the first place. So it is relevant. So the question the BOR had was, did he really satisfy the requirements. They had doubts and they acted on them. This is the solution they came up with because they knew it wasn't appropriate to retest him on anything, but the answers the boy was giving left a poor impression on them. Stosh

How does one "push too hard" on Advancement? Either the scout has the skill or he doesnt. Either the scout demonstrates the sucessful completion of the POR or he doesn't >> He made FC in about 7 months and had his advancement signed off by his PL. All three ranks were one BOR covering each of the ranks separately. The focus was entirely on the boy's own success and he did not do anything for anyone besides himself. He's good, but he has a high achiever older brother than he stands in the shadow of and doesn't have the natural abilities or temperament of his older brother. He has fantastic leadership gifts but not the same as his older brother whom he's trying to emmulate. >> Now that he's going for Star, the BOR was looking for more leadership/teamwork etc. and didn't "hear" that from the boy who's still operating on a "my achievement" track. When is the next BOR scheduled? In 6 months? 4 months? >> BOR's can be scheduled whenever someone would like one. The next COH is in March. It's always the 5th Monday of the month. Who will be typing up the letter outlining the steps the scout has to take to be successful? >> This will be the discussion I will be having with him next week after he has had a week to think about the issues discussed in his BOR. WHen the process of appeal was explained to the scout, did he show any interest in appealing or does he accept the committees decision? >> Who does one appeal to? I'm not thinking the Council is interested in dealing with an appeal from a Star candidate on his BOR. The BOR was conducted by the CC and Committee. Stosh

Update: Had a SM conference with this Eagle candidate and it was decided 1) he wasn't going to be kicked out of scouts because of his stunt, 2) he wasn't going to get off scott-free either. I have 2 older boys, one of which will be aging out in January leaving me with this other Eagle candidate as senior scout. It was decided he was to "step down" from SPL/PL of the older boys and another boy would take over as PL and SPL position would remain open because it really wasn't needed in a 2 patrol troop. The Eagle candidate did a great job his first year with him as a PL of the new scouts and they all progressed and the patrol was quite successful. He's going back into that role but on a troop level. At first he saw this process as punishment, but I told him it's an opportunity to actually do some leadership and that the success of the 2 PL's and any other POR was in his hands. He asked me what his POR was to be. I said no patch on the sleeve, but he's going to need to function as TG, Instructor, SPL, JASM and anything else he can think of to show his leadership. His father (my ASM) sat in on the SM Conference and was pleased with how it was handled and the second chance his boy got. We both agreed that the ball is now in his son's court. Thanks to all on the forum who offered up their input and recommendations. Stosh

The scout who had his POR signed off by the SPL yet didn't do the work did not make it through the BOR. It was their recommendation that the scout talk with the SM asap and get another POR and become functional. They assured him that if that be the case, his next BOR would be nothing more than a review of how he did on the process and then he would be ready for the next rank. This BOR was for Star. He's 12 years of age and pushing hard on advancement, maybe too hard, so this should not hurt him in his scouting career. Stosh

or the teamwork and commitment necessary for a patrol to all work together raising money so the poorest of the patrol can have a uniform... Handout? or maybe something necessary to show some good leadership. Every adversity in front of the boys is a opportunity for leadership and growth. A uniform is no different than any other adversity. Friendly and kind and thrify could all kinda play teamwork together on this one. We aren't all that different with our focus, it's just that as a method of scouting, uniforming can go a long way to build some great character, pride and esprit de corps amongst the boys that struggle together. Stosh

But paramedics, firemen and police are trained and yet are defined as heros (?) Pretty hard to take aim at a target that keeps moving around. Stosh

I think much of these awards have something to do with the degree of danger to the rescuer. We had a situation a few years back when an Eagle Scout pulled an elderly gentleman out of the waters who had gone through the ice while ice fishing. It wasn't that deep, but deep enough that the gentleman couldn't get out. The Scout ran out, jumped in and helped him out then was able to get himself out because he was more agile than the elderly man. He took the man into the house, dried him off and called for medical assistance. The boy knew how deep it was and knew the reason the man was having trouble was because of his age. The house was nearby so the scout was not in danger of hypothermia if he acted quickly. How does one define the degree of risk on the part of the Scout? The Eagle Scout marked it up as just another Good Turn. These awards are totally subjective in their definitions, but don't let that deter your boys from doing what they're trained to do if the need arises. I'm terrified of heights, so don't expect me to rescue any cats out of trees, but I've pulled accident victims out of burning cars. Heroics is what someone else defines it as. Stosh

My Venturing crew members need to cough up at least $1200 to outfit themselves and for the first year get loaner equipment that they trade back once they get the dollars together to purchase for themselves. I know it's difficult. I have a standing search on E-Bay for cheap uniform parts which I sell back to the boys at cost. I know it's difficult, but not impossible. My Venturing boys have all learned to sew so they actually make a lot of their uniforms, the dollars go to leather equipment including $100 shoes that they can't make themselves. Everytime one of my older boys purchases a new uniform, I ask if their old uniform is for sale. It's usually a smaller size for the new boys to fit into. Are there other troops in the area that might be able to help. Maybe networking with more affluent troops on this forum would help. I don't have all the answers, but a flat out, "No it won't work" just doesn't cut it as a valid argument. And as far as walking to school, all I had to do was cut through the back yard for grade school, 2 blocks to middle school and across the street for high school, so it was no big deal. And as far as your boys are concerned, it bothers me that an adult leader would lower the bar of expectations to accommodate their situation. I leave the bar high and give the boys something to constantly work for. If they don't get there, no big deal, but if they do, they then prove to themselves that anything is possible. Praising a boy for meeting the "get by" level of achievement may go a long way to build his self-esteem, but the struggle of hitting the goal in the end goes a long way for his self-confidence, and if he goes above and beyond, that makes him an asset to himself, but to the world around him as well. I'm thinking that the scout that saves up 6-7 years so he has a nice new full uniform for his EBOR, he's understood something far beyond meeting the expectations set down by the rank of Eagle. Nothing wrong with him showing up with shirt and necker, but it says something if he shows with hand-me-down uniforms, clean and ready to go, but a brand-new one? I'm thinking that 40 years later that uniform may never be worn again, but it's still going to be in that young man's closet. I'm sure we'll never see eye-to-eye on this issue, but I've seen some pretty exciting things coming out of boys that the bar set high can achieve. If decide to go the E-Bay route, let me know so I don't bid against you for the cheap uniforms Stosh

I have a number of boys in my troop right now that "owe me money" for uniforms I have purchased on E-Bay and they are paying me back as they are able. I grew in relative poverty compared to others. I have held some sort of full or part-time job since I was 12 years of age. I delivered papers, turned over gardens, shoveled walks, raked leaves, did errands, etc. I owned a bicycle so I got out of poor neighborhood where people were willing to pay for such "luxuries" as having their sidewalks shoveled. I did whatever I could to cover the costs and paid for things as they came up. I left school in 1977 with $1500 in student loans, and that was after 8 years of post-high school expenses. Not being able to afford a full uniform is a bogus argument. I had to purchase not only my uniform, but I also purchased all my camping equipment and everything else that went along with scouting. I didn't have a family that had the money to provide any of that. If I wanted it, it was up to me to figure out how to get it. Birthday and Christmas money was collected up so I could buy everything from scout knife to mess kit, from tent to sleeping bag. A scout is trifty. The quicker one learns this the easier life is going to be. My house is paid for, my three vehicles are paid for, my 2 canoes and kayak is paid for, my multiple Venturing uniforms are paid for (from private to Captain, both blue and gray), my BSA uniforms are paid for (5-Scouting, 1-Venturing), my entire cost for 100th Jamboree is paid for, ... I work as an administrative assistant (secretary), and that doesn't pay much, but what one does with what little they have is what Thrifty is all about. Oh, yes, my divorce wiped me out 15 years ago and I had to start all over. Stosh

My crew has has an ever increasing positive relationship with their CO over the past 10 years. They were wary at first but have warmed up to the group and now is great. 4 years ago I became IH and so things began to change for the positive. My troop has had an excellent relationship with their CO (American Legion). They've worked together for the past 50 years and things go very well. IH recently assisted on one of our boy's Eagle Projects and offered additional resources from other American Legions in the area to support his EP. My former troop had CO problems occasionally, but they seemed to work out in the long run. However, I'm thinking the relationship is tolerable to them so they put up with the inconvenience and costs. Stosh

In my crew we are constantly developing leadership amongst the younger boys simply to avoid what you have described here, the older leaders leave leaving a vacuum of leadership. It is also easy to "relax" when you as advisor have strong older boy leadership and then they leave, oops, you have to "unrelax". If you have had success in the past with your program, get back to basics. Treat it in the same way you did 6 years ago, but this time around you have the advantage of having some people already in place. Have those people draw on any resources they may have around them, friends and others interested in getting involved. Plan some nice trips so that your meetings are not just recruiting. Nothing worse than going to meeting after meeting being reminded of how bad off we are. Keep the program going and invite visitors to check out what you are doing. Look to the future and put out some nice expectations for activities. Plan for success, don't cut back on the program because the bodies aren't there. Go with what you have and have a great time. Remember, with 5 crew members, if each of them brings in one friend, you'll experience 100% growth immediately. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

We have to stick with apples or oranges. Getting time off for professional seminars is not the same as getting time off for volunteer/personal opportunities. I have pulled boys out of school on many occasions for reenacting reasons and have had no problems. Depending on grades and finances I'm hoping the student can work it out. I'm thinking that as time gets closer the cost in both resources and time may wane with time and minds may change. But one must always remember we are dealing with volunteers here and the amount they are willing to commit varies from one individual to the next. I've managed professional groups as well as volunteer groups and one has to make major adjustments between the two. One can't threaten to fire volunteers when the screw up, and worse yet, volunteers don't often quit when you hope they would. Big time (horse)apples and oranges here. Stosh

I know of one Eagle Scout personally who has ADHD. I know of one boy right now working on his Eagle project who has Asperger's Syndrom. It may take a bit more time and effort, but that's why we do what we do. Stosh

Buying a larger furnace isn't going to be of much help if someone always has to sleep with the windows open for comfort. There aren't many options beyond doing it correctly and expect to get the same results. Stosh

Cost is a bogus argument when it comes to uniforms. Stosh

Thanks Big Sky, I found that link as well and will be picking up a centennial uniform from them, will order this week. BSA buttons may be a problem, but I have a few months to work on E-bay for those. I'm thinking the BSA collar brass and SM collar brass should be enough to cover the basics. I do have the BSA belt from that era already, but there were special gaiters that were different than those of the military and have only seen one pair go through E-bay in the past 4 years and those were the ones that were the original uniform I saw for sale. I'll keep looking. Thanks for the link. Stosh

Kenk, you've got nothing to worry about with your son. I'd sign off on him without any hesitation. Give me a boy that lurks in the background that supports the work of the patrol/troop any day! What "leaders" don't understand is that often times the supportive grunt work is often times seen as the "follower" when in fact it's not the case. Imagine for a moment -- a coach never plays the game, the conductor of an orchestra never makes a noise, the driver's education teacher doesn't sit behind the wheel, and the list goes on and on, but these are all leaders, helping others perform at their best. The example your boy set was more leadership than society will ever give him credit for, but in fact showed his merit with the heart, not the hands. Too often we measure "leadership" in terms of SPL, ASPL, PL, and those patches on the sleeves that give some sort of illusion of honor and respectability, but in fact often times don't prove a thing. Too often we view the grunt work boys as the followers, when in fact if a task has to get done and done correctly, often times it isn't the SPL who rolls up his sleeves and leads, but the kid in the background that says, "Hey, guys, lets knock this out and get on to some of the more fun stuff." That's the real leader. The example your boy set is the real key to leadership, not the patch he may or may not wear on his sleeve. Wars may be fought by generals, but they are won by privates. Congratulations on a boy that sets the pace for all others to follow. He didn't seek the honors, but was dealt a hand of true leadership and he put his whole heart into it and did great. "I tell people that he's not the hare - he's the tortoise. He isn't flamboyant or especially fast or fancy, but he gets the job done." And That's what makes him a fantastic leader! Mother Theresa didn't seek the accolades of the world in what she did, but the example of leadership she set, very few will ever be able to emulate! You are very much mistaken if you ever think you have to apologize for a son like yours. Stosh

Welcome to the real world.... Did you know that Robert E. Lee graduated at the top of his class? Did you know that George A. Custer graduated at the bottom of his class? Graduating and graduating with honors is different. There are all kinds of subjective evaluations going on when one hears about certain awards. Somehow the discussion of Eagle has come up. So, Eagle can do one of two things. Show exempliary Scouting or just be a rank that boys stuck it out and got for at least doing the minimum of what scouting expects. If merely fulfilling all the requirements is all it takes, why is everyone running around looking for references and letters of recommendation? What is the message being sent? Stosh

evmori: he's already there for other reasons. Stosh

Adult-led troops would max out at 20-30 boys (size of a standard classroom of students). With Boy-led one should be able to go quite bit higher than that. An adult should be able to know just about anyone in a group of 200 people (like a pastor in a church congregation). But that's pretty much it when it come to one-on-one with a single adult (SM). If one wishes to go beyond that, one's going to need a strong PLC to handle a larger grouping and the SM isn't going to be able to do all the one-on-one he/she may wish to do. Stosh

At one point a few years ago I was registered as a Webelos den leader, ASM and Crew Advisor. Now I'm only SM and Crew Advisor. (Add to that I am a Youth Leader for my church high school youth group and President and senior military officer for my Venturing Crew's Chartering Organization.) By the way, it helps if you're not married and don't have kids under 18. Stosh

The teacher who is considering taking WB and can't is a college professor. He is my ASM and is 90% at all scout activities, he was with me at summer camp. He does have a family and other children not in Boy Scouts (2 in Scouts, 1 in Cubs, 1 in Tigers). To ask him to take time off from his job would be like asking him to put in 110% for Scouts. Not going to happen. Would he take a week in the summer when he's not working? In a heartbeat, no problem. The student considering WB has been extremely active in Scouting all the way through, is doing his Eagle project and will age out and become an ASM immediately in January 2010. He'll commit another full year as ASM in our troop because he is a junion in HS at this point. He can't be taking 2 Fridays off of school for this. Would he take a week in the summer when he's not going to school? In a heartbeat, no problem. I checked our Region and no council is offering WB other than a double 3-day weekend program. Would these two go a couple of states away to take the weeklong WB course, in a heartbeat. If everyone does it the same way, it really doesn't offer any options for those who find it difficult to accommodate. If I were considering WB and had 2 weeks vacation, one week for scout camp and the other for personal, I'm thinking WB isn't going to happen any time soon. I took WB as 3 2-day weekends, and it worked out great. Stosh Simple solution? Yes, one weekend before summer camp starts, but school is out and the other weekend after summer camp ends and school hasn't started yet. NO ONE in any of the regions offer this option, either they are BOTH during the school year or at least one weekend is. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

How about a 4 pocket tunic with stand-up collar and jodpur pants and leggings? 4 corner necker and campaign hat. No one will mis-identfy one as a scout...! Too hot in the summer? That's bogus, I wear wool uniforms at events all summer long and at 59 years of age, I've never gone down from the heat. Yes, in Virginia and Pennsylvania in the summer the heat indexes can reach up well over 100 degrees. 7 2-quart canteens of water in an afternoon? Yep, been there, done that. If a reproduction centennial uniform were available, would I buy one? Yep! I bid one of my size on E-Bay to $1200 and had to drop out of the bidding. Anyone out there that has a pattern for such a uniform, I'd be interested! Stosh

I have and wear one along with the more comfortable expedition hat. One of my scouts also wears one. Stosh

Thanks Beavah for the thread. It speaks directly to the problem I'm facing with a lack-luster scout who's earned the rank but shows nothing as even an inkling of anything beyond the minimum. Add to that, once the application was signed, he chose to totally disregard the safety of others and caused a major ruckus all the way up to the Council level. Don't cha just love working with kids? Just when you think you've got a handle on something, they pull some sort of stunt that leaves you scratching your head? If ya didn't love 'em, you'd shoot 'em. (Before anyone gets worked up about that statement, it's what my mother always used to say about us kids when we were growing up! No, I'm not considering turning into a serial killer. LOL!) Stosh