Stosh

Hey now, I take that as a personal attack! Not only am I stupid, you're calling me lazy too? LOL~! Stosh

Buffalo, you may wish to address the issue of procrastination and the possibility that if there are any questions about his Eagle, he won't have time to correct them. Make every contact with the boys a learning experience for them. The SMC shouldn't be any different. I like to leave a wee bit of doubt in the minds of my over-confident boys. It makes them think about things and maybe take them a bit more serious next time. Congrats to the boy... Stosh

I'm with TwoCubsDad on this one. This level of discipline is not the responsibility of the youth. They are there to avail themselves of the opportunity of the program, not enforce the behavior of others. If the adults cannot provide a safe and constructive environment for the boys, then it's time to get adults in there that can. If these boys are causing problems, separate them out until they get their act together or show them the highway. 20 boys and their parents ticked off because of these two boys or 2 parents ticked off because their little ones got the boot.... do the math. I am responsible to provide the best program for the most boys, if there are those that hinder that process, they are asked to find some other opportunities for their boys. End of discussion. Stosh

I received the centennial BS History book for Christmas and was surprised to learn that two Canadian Scouts came to the 1936 National Jamboree in Washington, DC. No big surprise? Well, they bike to it from British Columbia. Try getting a National Tour Permit under those circumstances today! Scouting war stories back when are always interesting, but I do remember getting wall tents that actually had another piece of canvas one used as a floor. Floor in a tent? Luxury! It wasn't until years later that we had bug screens on the tents. I'm not thinking there are many scouts today that are capable to camping as we did 50 years ago. The #10 can was one of the most important pieces of BSA equipment back then and today at camp one can't even get a pair of them for fire safety anymore. Bug lights? Anyone know what they are? or how to make them? Try to find a flashlight today that is capable of Morse Code (2nd Class Requirement). Fuzz Stick anyone? Anyone still use the mess kit as a personal dutch oven? Makes great blueberry muffins. I went to Florida over the Christmas holidays and held two week worth of gear in 2 Yucca Packs.... With a waxing moon over vacation, didn't need a flashlight. Still own and use WWII pup tent. Hit the Lodge outlet store in So. Pittsburgh, TN and bought $400 worth of iron. The new BSA centennial dutch oven and fry pan was too much of a temptation. The 14" dutch holds the muffin tin really nicely. Don't touch the canvas in a rainstorm.... Yes, I own a brass collapsible cup and a brass match safe. I take medications daily. Cup and match safe are part of my first aid kit. My aluminum match safe holds my matches. 6 large safety pins are still needed for a double wool blanket sleeping "bag"/bedroll. That's what the 12 extra rings on the Yucca pack are for. Reflector oven? Sure, it's called a roll of aluminum foil. Backpack stove? Sure, large juice can with vents. Mess kit balances nicely on top of it. When done, fill #10 can with water and drop it in. Nests inside #10 boiler on the march. Need to find a nice source of wire coat hangers to complete your kitchen setup. Nice canvas tarp makes great tent/fly. Too much weight to carry? Buddy up with someone and lash a travois of walking sticks and that problem is solved. Tie it down with a diamond hitch and off you go.... Use your tumpline if it's a bit heavy or your arms get tired. You know, the tumpline, the thingy you use to help keep the weight of the canoe off your neck when you portage and to carry twice the weight of your backpack... Stosh (This message has been edited by jblake47)

The old adage says: "There are no stupid questions." Sometimes when I want to catch the attention of my audience I use the phrase, "There are no stupid questions, only stupid people asking questions." Once I have everyone's attention which is the normal reaction to such a statement, I further clarify it with: "...and if you wish to stay stupid, don't ask questions." The best way to get educated is not to attend classes and lectures, the best way is to actively ask questions and find out the appropriate answers so one doesn't stay uninformed (aka stupid). If one doesn't understand, ask. If something is unclear, ask and keep asking until one gets a satisfying and accurate answer. It's the only way to learn. Whenever I get the chance to "bend the ear" of an expert, I flood them with questions! The purpose of this forum IS to ask questions because, like me, most of those here are uniformed, misinformed or just plain thick when it comes to running a scout program. It's not working for me, to whom to I go? I have questions and need answers. There are a fair amount of people on this forum that have the answers I need. What's working for them may or may not work for me, but I still need to ask. I may not like the answer I get, but it's still helpful. Personal attacks? Yep, had those too. "How can you be so stupid as to believe that?" Well, I do believe that, but maybe someone can help me get smart. Is it a personal attack? Sounds like it, but maybe a swift kick is what I need to start getting squared away. A little courtesy may cushion the comments along the way and they don't actually say I'm stupid, but just maybe they're on to something that I need to get smart about. So to answer the subject line question: Is it just me?? Maybe, maybe not, but if it's true, then maybe I need to start listening to WHAT is being said instead of focusing on HOW it's being said. I constantly evaluate what is being said and asking myself if I am really hearing what is said or is it what I think is being said. If I'm unsure, I'll ASK!~ because I'm being dumb and don't want to stay that way. Stosh

Over the holidays I toured historical sites in the south. If one wishes to know what farb is, go to the Shiloh battlefield and view the 1956 video in their interpretive center. It is so bad I couldn't help laughing. As far as I could tell, the smokeless bolt action rifles weren't invented for at least 50 years after the Civil War, but were plentiful after WW II in 1956. I won't even start on the uniforms in the film... On the other hand 25 miles to the south at Corinth, MS a new interpretive center opened up there for the Battle of Corinth that had a preso that was absolutely fantastic! I liked it even better than the one they made for the new Gettysburg visitor center that opened up last year. The Corinth people really know their stuff. Eagle92: there's no such thing as too much research. Once you realize you have the wrong stuff, then you are on your way to a great impression. It's those who don't know that create the biggest problems and perpetuate incorrect information to the public. Stosh

What? You think KOA camping with a Civil War theme is authentic? Obviously one has not attended many national events where people all gather for a mega event. Cell phones, Colman coolers, plastic wrap, etc. all are evident every place one turns. If one were to do a truly historical event the public would be appalled. We did an event where there was no resurrection following the main battle. Instead the "wounded" were carried back to the surgeons and holes were dug and the "dead" were buried under a thin layer of dirt. The members of my crew look their ages and when they were carried off to the surgeons the crowd followed. They were "tended" to, yet they died and had a blanket thrown over them, dragged off and piled up. People were crying. On of the members lost a leg in a motorcycle accident and had to have his leg "amputated". It was thrown out the window when they were done. A few people passed out. Common language of the day was prevalent and many folks were upset. Prisoners were treated as prisoners and solders went through the pockets of the dead and took their boots and wallets. Chickens in the farm yard were caught and butchered, and eaten the civilians who fought back were shot. The "rations" for the reenactors were buried in the garden and they helped themselves to it by digging it up. Silverware and valuables from the farm house was "stolen". By the time we were done, the organizers of the event told us we were NEVER to do that again, it was too realistic and people were upset and complaining. Years afterwards the reenactors still comment about that one event and how "perfect" it was, but you'll never see it happen again any time soon. Modern society is not in the mood to know what really went on in history. They prefer the mythological legends portrayed by Hollywood because if they really knew what went on back then it would grate on their sense of civilized humanity. VERY few reenactors have the courage to do real living history. If they do, the world around them simply won't accept it. Stosh

Farb is shorthand for "far be it" from authentic. One must also remember that TV, Movies, Novels, etc. from most sources is produced as entertainment, not documentary. After 10 years of reenacting, VERY FEW reenactors are, or try to be, authentic. The "'taters" (spectators) don't know the difference. Equipment wise, they are pretty "good", but their speech, manerisms, and social context seldom exist at most reenactments. 'Taters are a hoot. They ask where we sleep at night, i.e. in our tents, is the fire real, yes, stand back, and the food you're eating, is that real? I think a lot of people spend too much time in museums looking at the fake fires and wax characters. Our boys are taught to portray history correctly. They know the drill, they personify a character and they act the part. They can talk the history of the time period, know about their civilian life background and know camp-life as well as battlefield tactics and drill. They are all capable of putting on at least an hour's worth of legitimate presentation to a general audience without inaccuracies. We are not the norm, however, and asking groups for your packs and troops need careful scrutiny as to the material they give. Yes, there are a ton of people out there that know the North fought the South, but can't place the Blue/Grey colors correctly, even if they are certified teachers. Go figure. Watching the History Channel is a hoot, but it does go a long way to educate my boys by providing a lot of "Don't use this material" examples for their presentation. Know your stuff and present what's correct! Stosh

Too bad that he took the reward, now he can't count it as his daily good turn. Stosh

This is not a public forum. When one registers they register to participate in a private forum. The owner of the forum sets the decorum for their forum. If one is invited to another's home, the host has the right to set standards of behavior, i.e. don't swear in front of their kids and keep your clothes on. If one cannot abide by these expectations the host can and does have the right to ask the offenders to leave. If one wishes to have a "freedom of speech" forum where anything goes, they have the right and opportunity to do it on their own and invite whomever they wish. Until that happens, I appreciate the moderators doing their job as expressed by the forum owner. Stosh

I spent many years moderating other forums and there are a number of things one can do to "clean up" one's post so as to not appear offensive. 1) Stay on topic. 2) Use 3rd person as much as possible. First person: "I always do it this way." Second person: "You always do it wrong." and Third person: "If one would want to consider this alternative they might...." It takes the conversation out of the "ME" and "YOU" conflicts that often times interfere with the discussion. 3) Arguing only reinforces the fact that one disagrees, it does nothing to change another person's beliefs. 4) Apologize when one has offended. 5) Give a little leeway in the discussion. Often times the written word is far more misinterpreted than when discussing things verbally. Give the benefit of the doubt and assume nothing. If one is unsure of another's intent or viewpoint, politely ask for further clarification. I don't know if any of this helps and often times I slip up, but maybe it might help some of those on the forum come across a bit more gentle and encourage some of the newbies to join in. Keep it in mind that very little is chiseled in stone and most troops and packs are given a bit of leeway to adapt their program to meet the needs of their boys. Also just because someone does something different in their program doesn't mean it's wrong, nor does it mean that it's going to work in one's own program. Whenever I comment about how I do something, maybe I should put a disclaimer on it saying that what works for me may not work for you. But in the long run, someone who's up against a wall might find a wee bit of wisdom in the post and nudge their troop along a bit or get them over the hump. I seriously doubt anyone I've met on this forum has a serious desire to cause harm or problems for others regardless of how harsh they may appear in the printed posting. I have had a lot of people who's opinions I have garnered up and used in my troop that although was harsh in it's presentation still benefited my boys along the way. I hope some of this helps. Stosh

I have a co-ed crew, but no registered female leaders, never have. I've held no FOS nor had any BSA fundraisers. The UC (if there is one) never has contacted us... ever. Our DE has come to one of our events since we started. Our re-chartering kit is picked up at the council office because the DE lives a long way from where the crew meets. We have been successfully operational now for 10 years and have more in our treasury than our chartering organization. We have two trained leaders. Stosh

Last weekend I put my kayak in the garage, put my '74 Nova in storage, and dragged out my cross-country skis. I'm already to go! Just another day in paradise! We have 6-12" planned tomorrow! I'm counting down the hours! Stosh

If your son discussed his palms with you the SM, it sounds as if he has done his SM conference. It doesn't have to be anything official, just a conference. It sounds as if he isn't interested in the palms so that should be the end of it. His only step left is BOR which he'll have to set up with the CC and committee. All you can do at this point is give him encouragement to follow through. It might be a good idea to find out the reason why he is reluctant to follow through. It may take a few "SM Conferences" to get your answer. Stosh

Sounds like a nice research project for the boys. May lead to a greater appreciation to the culture they're trying to portray. Just remember the Colonial era (1700's) and even the Woodland Indians (Early 1800's) were far different than those of the Plains (Late 1800's). The Golden Age of the fur trade you referred to would be the late 1700's to early 1800's and would encompass more of the Woodland culture. Have fun with it, sounds like a nice project. Keep me posted! Stosh

One of my boys got all over my case when a boy let the flag touch the ground and I didn't say anything. It was totally accidental, so it was no big deal except for this one other kid. I told them that I had read the rules and regulations over and over for flag etiquette and it doesn't say the flag has to be burned, but the one doing it had to be court marshaled and shot by firing squad if found guilty of treason. For a long time he believed me but about 6 months after that he came back, had researched the Flag Code and said that it didn't need to be burned and the person letting it touch didn't need to be shot either. He's my next Eagle in the troop! Turned out to be a great kid with a keen insight into my sense of humor. Stosh

My crew started out as a personal project I DID NOT want to do. I tried everything I could to get out of it. My DE kept pressuring me to come up with an idea for a Venturing crew and whatever excuse I came up with he countered. Once my excuses ran out, I formed the crew and it's been active for over 10 years now. When it comes to OA and their outfits, they seem to do whatever it takes to make it look close. Unfortunately a little time and effort along with some research, one could a lot better job coming up with appropriate clothing for the lodge. Like le Voyageur suggests, get the correct stuff! Unless you're portraying a Mandan Indians, blonde hair and blue eyes just don't cut it. There's a lot ways one can go to improve the image of OA Indian traditions and hokie isn't one of them. Stosh

I do historical reenacting and would be able to give you a few pointers along the way. First thing I would do is seek out any adults in the area who already do this kind of thing and form up a Venturing crew for historical reenacting. This opens up the opportunity to get some gals and guys interested in doing this on a regular basis. I find these groups very helpful in resource materials and ideas as to how to get started. I could not have gotten my Crew going without their expertise. Then do research with the kids. Have them research clothing, camping, and equipment needed. The groups will know of events in your area that you can go to and go with the kids as spectators and have them take copious notes as to what they see. Many of the fur trader units are selling the kinds of stuff you'll need, but you have to be educated before you buy. If you buy crap to begin with, you will need to spend more getting the correct stuff later on and the crap will not be able to be sold to anyone else except people who didn't do their research in the first place. After a couple of events, start your budget process to purchase what you need or collect up patterns for clothing and make your own stuff at a greatly reduced price. A hand-sewn shirt may cost only $5 in material but would sell for $50-$75. This extra money can then be put into equipment you can't make yourself. Also if anyone can knit along with sew, you've hit a gold mine. I know of a gal who knits and sells stocking caps that are period correct for about $75 each and is in the process of knitting two now for a customer's Christmas gift list. Once you've figured out 1) historical research, 2) a source of income, you can then 3) begin purchasing equipment for the Crew. After 10 years of doing this, our crew has $2,000+ in their treasury and still taking orders for hand-made items that they can do in their free time. Once you have your Crew outfitted, then you can decide on a scenerio (reason for why you are dressed and act in a certain way) and can interact with the public and draw attention to yourselves. This will open up opportunities to do historical presentations to groups in the area (schools, public, packs, troops, and other reenactment groups.) The income from these presentation can go into purchasing more equipment and cover travel expenses to get to events further away. These presentations are a piece of cake because the kids have researched the topics and can talk freely and the better they are the more they are in demand) Just be sure that when they do a presentation they know the material accurately. Once the kids are outfitted they can get into such things as traps, canoes, weapons, etc. that will assist in the presentations. Down the road a ways the kids can take on certain personifications and make their presentations in the first person. This really adds to the enjoyment of the presentations, as if a real person that did this 150 years ago has come to make a presentation. Remember, whatever "costume" the kids wear becomes the uniform of the Crew. Ultimately, the goal is to go to an event, set up camp as if they are "in the field", cook, demonstrate, and educate the spectators in the ways the historical people they represent would have done. I would leave the door open for other opportunities along the way. One might have a Crew that is not restricted to just the Fur Trade Era. With the equipment already have could expand into the French and Indian Wars or Colonial America without much more equipment. This opens up all kinds of new research and activities to the kids. Feel free to contact me off forum for any specific questions you might have. It's a fascinating opportunity for kids and because of it's educational as well as fun opportunities, you will attract some high caliber kids when they come forward. Stosh CA, US History Crew #2, BSA

DWS - On the contrary! Any brass player knows how to make a bugle work, regardless of its size. They also know how to read simple music and the best part is there are no valves or slides to mess with. Our local bugler (CW reenactors) is a tuba player in our community capo band. He does just fine, but does realize the difference in mouthpieces as you have pointed out. Difficult? Yes, Impossible? No. Just a little more practice and you should do just fine. As a matter of fact, the practice on the bugle has improved his tuba playing, making it more precise and fun once he builds up the muscles for the bugle. The nice thing about it, is you do know how to make a brass horn work so it should be reasonably easy to teach one of your boys to be a functional bugler. Some of the old BS handbooks have basic bugle calls and back in the 40's BSA put out a small pamphlet "Learn to Play the Bugle in 5-minutes". It is grossly misnamed, but it does start with a boy who knows nothing about music and/or bugles and can get him up to functionality in about 3-4 weeks. Instead of thinking about the bugle as a ceremonial music instrument, think about it in terms of communications. That bugle can be heard quite a ways depending on weather conditions, but a good bugler standing in your campsite at summer camp should be able to get to about 75% of the average camp to communicate something from the leadership. (i.e. medical accident in campsite. Bugler sounds the alarm, any boy in your troop close to the health lodge can relay that information to the health personnel quicker than sending a runner. Response time is cut in half.) What's really fun is when one goes to a national reenactment and there are multiple regiments and each bugler is playing different things at different times for different reasons. Learn to pick out the calls for you and it's a piece of cake keeping thousands of people in the loop! (Envision a summer camp where every troop has a functional bugler!) Ever wonder why the military used a bugle? (and drums for that matter) It wasn't ceremonial, but became such, once the radio came into existence. Stosh Forgot to add! All those flute players out there that are in Boy Scouts (okay, okay, once you get done laughing...) the fifer was even more important than the bugler. Drums were for communicating to 100 men in a company, bugle was for communicating to the company commanders of the regiment (10 companies, 1,000 men) and the fife was used to be able to communicate between regiments. The drum's range in battle was about 50 yards and wouldn't interfere with the communication of the next company. The bugle is about 1/4-1/2 mile depending on weather conditions. When General Buford had the confederates pinned down outside the village of Gettysburg in the opening hours of the 3 day battle, the infantry was about 2 miles away when the command was given to amass all the fifers to the head of the column and to play "The Campbells are Coming". Over the din of battle, Buford was assured reinforcements were at hand even when they couldn't see them as yet. Never underestimate the importance of the Bugler as a genuine POR! Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

As many of you know, I do Civil War reenacting and as Captain of our CO and senior Captain of our reenacting association, which means I have seniority over all the other company captains. Because of this I often times get tapped out by the major to be regimental adjutant. Whenever I accept the assignment, the very first thing I do at an event is find out if any of the companies have functional musicians! Yes, even before organizing the companies, I need to be able to communicate with them. I can stand out on the parade ground a quarter mile from camp, turn to my bugler and say, "First Call". That notifies the 6-8 companies back in camp to get geared up, we're going to be doing something. 10 minutes later I turn to my bugler and say "Assembly". This lets all the company commanders to get their boys lined up in the camp streets. 2 minutes later I turn to my bugler and say "To the Colors". The men march out and fall into line on the parade grounds ready for Inspection. Can you imagine how much more difficult that process would be if I didn't have a bugler? Try notifying 6-8 company commanders to get their men ready, then tell them to march out to the field to a place I have not yet located? That bugler's only job is to dog my heels throughout the weekend. I get the men up in the morning, get them to inspection, call officers together, etc. all with the bugle. Buglers may be an old remnant of what Scouting used to be, but there was a vital importance to that job besides just making it nice for the flag ceremonies in the morning and evening. So the choice is easy, get two-way radios for all your boys or train up a functional bugler. Both work equally well. I'd trade in 3 excellent SPL's for one adequately functional Bugler any day! Any boy that's a brass player in the band can do bugle. Even if he were to learn from scratch, he should be able to become functional with maybe a month or less worth of practice. If the Bugler POR is a blow off in today's world, it's because most people don't understand what a bugler's supposed to do besides play reveille in the morning and taps in the evening. Just think of it as each boy is a virtual blackberry and the bugler is the person who texts the message to everyone. It's communications, not ceremonial. Stosh

According to modern science it takes on average: 3 minutes lack of air to die. 3 days lack of water to die. 30 days lack of food to die. On our last campout one of my patrols (5 boys, the older boy patrol) had a TOTAL of $16 for food for the whole weekend. They thought it would be easier not to cook. I'm sure they were really hungry come Sunday morning when the NSP was having dutch oven French toast and they were eating their granola bars. We all live by the choices we make. No, we as adults do not "check up on the boys". Bon apetite! Stosh

Jersey, I see you doing it totally correct. Congratulations! It takes time and patience to pull off a good boy-led program. There's a lot of real growth that occurs during that long learning curve. Once the boys realize no adult is going to step in and start laying down demands, they will pick up the slack. I've been working on this boy-led thingy for two years now and am just starting to get a faint glimpse of success off on the far horizon. Night before last there was a heated discussion between one of the parents and one of my PL's. (Remember, I'm the one that advocates the highest ranking officer in the troop is the PL.) It didn't look good and wasn't pleasant for anyone involved. I was watching from the sidelines and went over to another parent who was within earshot of the discussion (also a committee member) and asked if this was something I should get involved in and she said, no, the PL is doing a very good job of handling the situation. I did a follow-up review with the PL after the meeting and he was upset but determined to resolve the problem and would be making more phone calls this week to straighten out the situation and calm the tension that was caused. I asked him if there was anything I could do to help, he said, no, it's an issue that he needs to get to the bottom of. Of course I'll keep an eye on the situation, but I'm not planning on jumping in and rescuing this boy any time soon. He did ask me if this was the kind of hassles that SM's and ASM's have to handle all the time? (He's turning 18 in a couple of months and will be signing on as a ASM right away.) I said, not necessarily, especially if the troop has good PL's that can really take the reins and lead. Stosh

My 2 cents, for what it's worth. The defiant boy is basically isolating himself and his self-worth is dependent on how successful he appears. If someone else comes up with a good ideal, it reduces his self-worth because the idea didn't originate from himself. If that other idea succeeds, it's a threat to his abilities. Step One: I would focus on HIS ideas and comment on them periodically with a "That's really a good idea." or "I'm thinking that would work pretty well." Step Two: After he realizes that your interest is supportive, one could introduce such ideas such as: "I like that idea, have you come up with a solution that follows?" "I like that idea, but if it doesn't work out exactly like you have it designed, do you have a plan B?" This way you can introduce thought processes that will encourage him to seek solutions from within himself and increase his self-worth. Step Three: Eventually you will be able to offer suggestions for him to modify so he can think they came from him. I find that boys that are afraid to fail will struggle and fight, coming up with every excuse to justify it was someone else's fault so they won't be seen as the one that messed up. If you can convince this boy that you are his ally and not the enemy, it will go a long way in helping him feel secure that someone genuinely is helping looking out for him and will be there when and if something goes wrong. If he think's he's the only one looking out for him, it's a tough spot to be in. If the "plan" fails, share in the "blame". "I guess that idea WE came up with wasn't as good as we first thought." or "I sure wish I could have given you better advice or I wouldn't have messed this up." If the "plan" succeeds, give him all the credit even if it was an idea you planted in his head! He knows where the idea came from and if you give him all the credit, it will go a long way to build a good relationship with him. Once he realizes you can survive failure this way, then he will be able to as well. Lead by example. Stosh

Buffalo: Just a couple of observations: 5 boys with no patrol? So you have no one that attempts to get these boys more involved? I'd put a couple in each patrol so those patrol members can "recruit" them back into their patrol activities. If you have 2 older patrols, and a potential NSP early next year, I'd put all the troop officers in one patrol that will support both other patrols. NSP should have an older scout that doubles as PL and TG. That would mean the troop officer patrol could have a PL that operates as a SPL as needed. He's going to be handy to assist the other two PL's in their duties along with "taking care" of the boys who really shouldn't require a full-time PL and can kind of take care of themselves, or at least should be able to take care of themselves somewhat. Until the troop gets big enough for these boys needing to commit full time to a job, double up two part time jobs. So the boy wears a PL patch on his shirt doesn't mean he can't function as a TG at the same time for the benefit of his boys. Stosh

Two of my boys wear the OD green uniform shirts from the 60's. They are cheap on E-Bay. Getting the correct patches is a bit more difficult. I have worked on my uniform and one of my boys has gotten back to all the correct patches including the R/W community strip and state. Red piped, mule-eared pocket pants are also available as well as garrison caps. Otherwise, a red beret goes with the tan shirt as does the brass buckle belt. Just get the correct patches from the early 70's. Pants at that time were the 6 pocket cargo pants. Go with the older red/black patrol patches on these uniforms and one can also get the matching patrol flags from Ebay too. A lot of this stuff is readily available on Ebay, set up searches and it's really not that hard to come up with stuff. Mess kit cooking as well as tarp tents is a good idea. The 1909 Reprint of the handbook also has plans for making many of the older tents as well as double wool blanket "sleeping bags" Yucca packs are running about $15-20 on Ebay. Look at the pictures of the boys in the handbooks of the eras you wish to copy and that will give you an idea of what you're going to need. Stosh