Stosh

In our council, 1) The Eagle Coordinator introduces the candidate to the Board. 2) The SM sits quietly and listens. 3) The candidate is then asked the leave and the SM stays, available for further clarification during the panel's deliberations. 4) The candidate returns for their decision and the Eagle and SM leave together. During the deliberation for the two EBOR's I attended as SM, I only answered specific questions the Board asked me. I did not feel it was necessary to state my feelings/opinions on this candidate unless specifically asked by the Board. Stosh

Being a PL requires more than just wearing the patch and getting the credit. In order to "get credit" the PL must maintain at least 6 scouts in his patrol, plan activities and functionally lead the boys. If this does not happen, whether they wear the patch, win the election, or whatever, they don't get credit. If the patrol does not attend an activity and the PL is the only one that shows up, he has no one to lead so he cannot fulfill his obligations. Obviously he doesn't know anything about the needs of his patrol members or they would be there. If this situation occurs, he can surely go along on the activity and hang out by himself, but he is obviously not leading anyone, thus no credit. If he wishes to have a patrol to lead, he better get his patrol membership fired up so he can get his credit. If one is elected to be the "coach" on the team and he shows up for the games, and the team stays home, obviously that team isn't going to win any games that season. I don't think anyone is going to consider this person for the Coach of the Year award, nor do I think a winless season is going to work well on his resume. Do the work, get the credit. Simple as that. Stosh

Our boys are given the authority and responsibility to make all decisions within the following guidelines that they have all agreed to. 1) Safety first. 2) Look and act like a scout. 3) Have fun. Unless the decision runs counter to any of the above, it's a go. We teach our boys that if an adult says, directs, or "strongly" suggests, that means they must follow. This is not leadership. If they are going to take leadership seriously, they need to functionally lead. We do not have a PLC that directs the activities of the troop. Each PL is responsible for the leadership of his patrol. If they wish to do a patrol activity and can muster the resources and 2-deep leadership of the adults (or are mature enough to go alone) they can do the activity. If more than one patrol wishes to do the same activity, the PL's work it out amongst themselves. Because it is far more difficult to get 2 adults to go to summer camp at different places at different times, they take the easy route of coordinating these resources to coincide at the same time at the same place. However, they are not required to do so if they can gather up the necessary resources to do what they want. If patrol A wishes to go to one camp and patrol B a different camp and there are 4 adults that can make it happen, it happens. If there are only 2 adults available, they need to make a decision based on the resources available. Any patrol member can offer up suggestions as to activities. The "troop" officers are available to the patrols for assistance. If patrol A wants to do an activity, they check with the Quartermaster for available resources based on first-come, first-served. If there is only one dutch oven and it's committed to another patrol, the second patrol needs to reevaluate their situation based on the lack of resources. Either they change their menu or pick a different date, which may cause other problems with lack of 2-adult resources. These kinds of responsibilities and problem solving forces the boys to either actually lead or miss out on a lot of things. Once patrol members realize their patrol is missing out, either they correct their situation or continue to miss out. If a scout can validate their decisions based on the three principles listed above, the adults MUST step aside and let the boy's take the lead. Stosh

Our CO was very active with our Crew until some of the adults in the crew didn't like the directives of the CO and took everything and went and found a new CO with the blessing of the Council. It works both ways. Stosh

As part of my leadership training I try and instill in my boys just a couple of "ideals" that help them translate what they are doing into something productive. From your explanation I see a couple that might help. 1) "The best leaders are the best followers." By this I mean that if he cannot follow directions, he will never be able to inspire others to follow as well (i.e. leadership). I give "suggestions" to the boys just to see how well they "follow" so that they can be leaders. 2) "Get out in front and beat the adults to the punch." This means that as soon as an adult tells them what to do, they immediately switch from leader to follower. If they are going to run the show, they have to anticipate and lead before some adult takes the opportunity away from them. 3) "Take care of your boys." By this I mean if one is going to lead they are going to have to quit thinking about themselves and start concentrating on helping the others. If the boys don't think their needs are being met, they will find a leader who does. These are the three messages I leave with my boys and they are always making reference to them when teaching leadership to others so they must have some kind of positive impact on their own lives. I hope that with this boy, simply giving him a couple of simple statements like this will help him focus. Once one gets into a long explanation, the eyes of most boys glaze over and you've lost them. I have one boy going in for his EBOR tomorrow night who has taken on so much of these dynamics I had to all but slow him down long enough to finish his own requirements for Eagle. The excuses I kept getting from him was Johnny needs help with his patrol, so I'll get to my Eagle project as soon as he's up and running, etc. Now that he's 18 and has his Eagle, I've got a fantastic ASM already to go. He's been so active as a leader, there are those outside the troop that have frequently mistaken him for an ASM rather than just a Life Scout in the troop. Stosh

The biggest frustration I have with the patrol method is the differences in the patrols' joint personalities. One patrol (usually the younger boys) are fired up and work really hard at it. The older boys tend to blow things off and screw around a lot more. Gotta love the young 'uns that go out recruit and design some great programming for themselves and others. Congrats! Stosh

My kid brother had a hunting dog that had a command collar he attached to train the dog. When he pushed the button nothing happened. He took it off the dog and put his thumb on the probes and pushed the button. His arm was numb clear up to the shoulder. He put it back on the dog and nothing happened again. Needless to say, my favorite was the Dorito commercial! Stosh

Any Council in the area one is wishing to visit should be able to provide some nice activities that fit well into "high adventure" for your scouts. Northern Wisconsin has a couple of nice hiking trails (i.e. Ice Age). BWCA is nearby, as is Isle Royale. There are a few nice whitewater rivers as well, i.e. Bois du Brule and the Flambeau. Just contact the Councils. None of these activities I have mentioned are in my Council, but I surely know about them from talking with others who have been there, which in many circumstances is far more enlightening than looking at a map. Our area has a lot of primitive camping along the Mississippi River as well as a ton of bicycle trails. I'm sure every Council has a tale to tell about what they have to offer. Bay Lakes in Wisconsin also has within it's boarders the Oshkosh EAA fly-in which is totally fabulous for the boys. They also have many sea kayak opportunities on both Lakes Superior and Michigan hosted out of Wisconsin. Dang, I'm beginning to sound like a travel agency salesman here... Stosh

The weight/height tables are only part of the whole approach to the situation. It's a big part, but only part. When I went to Philmont I trained for a whole year, but because I didn't have the thin air to acclimate to, the trek was a struggle. I have flat feet, flat enough to be 4-F during the Vietnam War when anyone breathing was taken. I was 50 years old at the time and I was 20#'s UNDER the upper limit on the height/weight table. It was a personal challenge/struggle for me. I made it through, but I would have enjoyed the trek more if I had been 18 years old. At 59 years of age, my doctor says there are no restrictions keeping me from participating in any activity including any and all in the BSA program. Yet as each year passes, getting that 80# canoe up off the ground is that much more difficult and I'm still under the height/weight table requirements. I'm a lot happier with my 40# kayak where I can still get out with the boys and enjoy the activities. If one is planning on Philmont this summer there is plenty of time to make the adjustment to the height/weight table. Maybe 4-6 miles a couple times a week, extra weight in the pack, and less time at the dinner table would help out. I know of one gentleman in my former troop that was "overweight" according to the table. He was all muscle and could easily carry two 80# canoes, one on each shoulder. But the BSA needs to implement some kind parameters to insure proper dynamics to everyone involved. I know that's tough to bear by 1% of those who don't face these problems, but the other 99% is what BSA worries about. Stosh

I can see this issue from both points of view and both are equally valid. There is no wrong choice, so go with what you feel is appropriate. Me? I'd wear the uniform because it encompasses both parent and scout leader at the same time. The uniform is the outward expression of scout leader, and the man in the uniform is the outward expression of parenthood. Many of us wear two hats at the same time and letting your boy know that both are important is a strong message for him. If you wear the suit/tie combo, you let him know you are a proud father which you have every right to be proud. But by wearing the uniform you let him know that being a scout leader for him is just as important. Either way, Dad, job well done for not only your own son, but the Eagle whom you have mentored! I'm sure the affect you had on all the boys has had a positive impact on their lives as well and by wearing the uniform you let them know they are included in your scope of pride as well. Stosh

I agree Kathy, but then one opens up the door to all the DOB, SS#, background check, etc. that some are not comfortable with. As far as 2-deep is concerned, we have our boys in a very dangerous environment with reenacting. Guns, bayonets, black powder in paper rolls, fire, etc. and we try to keep the adult away time to a minimum. As far as the CO members helping out, it's not a problem with being with the boys, it's a problem with the legal insurance issues. I have felt we were always covered, but when they questioned it, I, too, became doubtful and began to second guess myself. Now I have some sources to assist with explanations. I never have worried from within the group because the boys are threatened to within an inch of their lives on safety and even a very minor infraction will have them sitting on the sidelines. That applies to any adult as well and the boys have always respected that. The only real concern I have always held in the back of my mind is what would happen if someone outside the realm of what we can caution for that would affect our boys, our leaders and our CO members. Stosh

I think I have the answers from the comments made. The question arose when members of the CO wanted to help out with the Crew but held back for liability reasons. We always had a trained, registered adult with the crew, but at times when CO members were asked to be a second adult when the trained registered leaders needed to leave the area for a short period of time. It isn't a big deal, but I was unsure of the legal recourse if something should go wrong. If two leaders were with the crew and one needed to leave to get something from their car or perform a task away from the area, that would leave the crew short of two-deep adult leadership. We would just ask one of the CO's there if they could stand in for an hour or two. Most of them didn't have a problem, but a few did. I just began to question the practice myself and needed more information on the subject. Stosh

Prior to potluck assignment issues, when I was a kid we had a church potluck for a returning missionary to give a slide preso. After about 20 minutes of watching people arrive, it became apparent there was a problem. EVERYONE who attended brought a Jello salad. I would say there were about 100 families in attendance and needless to say a quick trip out to the local chicken place saved the night. They later checked with the local university to see if they could calculate the odds for such an event and they said it would rank somewhere in the high billions to one. Stosh

I'm to assume then that members of the CO that are not parents are not covered at all during an activity under any circumstances if they happen to be at the same activities? Stosh

It's cheaper yet to just to say no and let someone else deal with the hassle. Add to that the increased cost of higher limits on the auto insurance and it's a lot more than "just a few bucks." It used to be everyone just jumped in Mrs. Smith's car and off we went to camp. It's not that simple in today's world. Everyone's starting to read and re-read the fine print in more than just the labels on food products. Everyone is entitled to full disclosure on insurance policies. Has anyone seen what the BSA policy really does and doesn't cover? Even as a registered leader there are enough questions being raised that it has peaked my interest as well. Stosh

Camp Freeland Leslie in Wisconsin.

I have a unit that has raised the question of insurance for the adult leadership. While the registered leaders are covered by BSA liability insurance as the primary provider, the unregistered adults are not. This difference is causing a number of our parents to question their participation and feel that because of their situation it would be better to leave transportation and supervision responsibilities to only registered leaders. Any thoughts? Stosh

I hate to toss cold water on all this discussion, but the obvious solution to the problem is a stitch-ripper (or small blade on jack-knife. Needle and thread (any color, it isn't going to show anyway. Pull the stitching out of the collar band where the collar connects to the collar band. Once the collar fabric has been removed, restitch the collar band. This is no big deal. This is an old trick on how anyone can prolong the life of a shirt that has collar wear from whiskers or stains from hair oils. Turn the collar around and keep on going. For those who are even too lazy for that, simply cut the collar off. The stitching in the collar band will hold everything in tact. If the edge becomes uncomfortable when the shirt is worn, sew on a trim of hemming tape. It's under the necker so it's a matter of comfort, not visible appearance. For the little more industrious, cut the collar off leaving 1/2" of the collar still on the collar band. Then fold 1/4" roll down each side of the collar band and sew like one would do to put a badge/patch on. This will leave a "hemming edge" of the appropriate color. We need to be more resourceful if we are going to expect it of our scouts. Stosh

The boys in my troop all use a handmade Turk's Head woggle but instead of using it horizontal, they turn it a quarter turn, but the ends of the necker in each side and then tie a small square knot in the ends. With the knot it there the woggle CANNOT be removed from the necker. To date no one has lost their woggle unless they lost the necker too. I got the idea for this from a photo of BP Stosh

Our troop gives only this guidance: Patrols need to be at least 6 but no more than 8 boys. They can determine their groups as they see fit. If 8 boys cross over into a NSP and all want to stay together until they Eagle. So be it. If they cross over and all want to go different routes and the older boys want them in their patrol. So be it. If after 2 meetings the boys can't stand each other, they are free to change. After the Webelos cross over, it usually takes a month for the boys to shake out what works best for them. For a few meetings when they line up for flags, the patrols are all over the place, but eventually it settles down and things run smoothly once more. Stosh

Here's my take, and it may or may not be with the consensus of others. CUB scout parents/leaders are setup to direct and lead because the boys are in many ways unable to do it for themselves. This dynamic has been successful for many years. I have no problem with adults leading the Pack. However, BOY scouts are expected to start the transition from being told everything to start in the process of self-leadership and because they are more mature this transition is facilitated. If someone has come up through the ranks under one premise and does not mentally and emotionally make the change with their boys they will always remain "cub" scouts in their development. The boys will always look for leadership from the adults directing the program. This is what they have been accustomed to coming through the CUB scout program. However, if an adult comes in and doesn't feel it necessary to run the show, has no CUB background, gets training in the expectations of the BOY scout program, they should do quite well. If a CUB scout leader transitions over with his boys, gets BOY scout training and makes the appropriate focus changes should do quite well also. The common denominator is in the focus/attitude of the individual and the supportive training to assist them in that focus. When I was a CUB scout leader, I spend a lot of time doing everything for the boys. I designed the program, got all prep ready and the boys had fun. However, when I switched hats, I had to start teaching them to do it for themselves. It's difficult because it was in no way coming up the the standards I had enjoyed if I just did myself for them. I later went back into CUB scoutings to work on the Webelos transition issue for my WB ticket. I had to switch hats from one meeting to the other and it was a challenge. It's not easy, but it can and needs to be done. One does not teach kids in grammar school the same way a professor on the college level does. The teachers have to change as the kids change. Stosh

I guess I am going to go along with what I see is a basic premise of the program. Scouting should be fun, no doubt, no argument here. Free-for-all's are a lot of fun, but with no goal or purpose intended. I have a problem here. There are a lot of things boys can do that fit easily into the scouting program that are fun. I am a firm believer that the two go hand in hand. Belching is fun for boys of this age, but serves no real scouting purpose, but as everyone knows to their own chagrin, fire is even more fun. I have yet to find a boy that doesn't want to play with the campfire, including peeing in it. Can that fun remain and still be channeled and focused into a safe and useful purpose? Boys love to play with knives. Can this fun be channeled and focused into a safe and useful purpose? Sure they can. Can the whole family enjoy it with their boy? Sure they can. To me family outings can be a lot of fun, but only if everyone has a good time, remains safe, and serves a purpose oriented to scouting. Why select non-scouting activities when there are a ton of fun things that are scouting activities? After all, if one doesn't want to do scouting activities, why are they in scouts? Stosh

My Council scout shop has the old badges and knows nothing about the "new" ones. They have no intention of getting them in. Stosh

I have refrained from signing off on a letter of recommendation on an eagle candidate until he fulfilled sufficiently the expectations I had in order for him to receive a letter of recommendation from me. The boy had "fulfilled" all the requirements by doing everything spelled out. The Council added to it that a letter of recommendation from the SM go in with the application. The boy was an excellent student 4.0 GPA, excelled in doing what he was told but showed no leadership and refused to anything more than what was minimumly required. When asked if I would heartily recommend him I said no. Others on the forum said it was going above and beyond the requirements, I agree. Yet it was a Council expectation, nonetheless. After 6 months of an attitude reevaluation on the part of the scout, he is now a JASM with a totally different approach in how he does things. Last week I signed off on the letter of recommendation and am looking forward to presenting him with his Eagle. Was it worth the hassle? Yep. Would I do it again? Yep. When I pin the Eagle on these boys, I'm going to be 100% satisfied he has made the effort to stand heads above the rest of the crowd. If this is not acceptable, my CO has the right to get someone else in the SM position that will think differently. In this case I was backed by my CO, my CC, and the boy's parents. Will I be as lucky next time? I hope so. Stosh

We have functional leadership in my troop. As SM I spend 100% of my time with the boys. My CC deals 100% with the parents and we compare notes at the committee meetings. If the SM is spending any time dealing with parents he is taking time away from his/her boys to do so. To train SM's to deal with parents is to train them for a job they did not sign on to do. When I have boys come to me and ask me questions I direct them to their PL's. When I have parents ask me questions, I direct them to the PL of their boys. If it's an issue that I know the PL can't handle, I send them to the CC. I spend time as SM developing friendships and trust with parents. The program of the BSA is set and given from National/Council. If parents have a problem with that they can take it up with the CC. Stosh