Stosh

Gotta love these games people play. No one ever heard the little childhood ditty: "Sticks and stones can break my bones, but nobody's words can hurt me"? It's about time the boy apologizes and the adults grow up. And by the way, I think it's stupid to wash dishes at a campout just to toss them in the dishwasher when I get home, too. I do it all the time. Usually I'm extremely busy getting things packed up that I don't have time to do the dishes if they are going in the dishwasher the minute I hit the door at home. However the comment was "devolved" down to "respect is earned, not conferred." The apology goes something like this: "With all due respect, I apologize because respect should be given whether it is earned or not." In 40 years of working with kids I have never disciplined anyone for disrespect. Freedom of speech is an important concept to me. Have I ever had anyone call me a jerk, or worse? Yep, and my standard answer to it is: "Sorry you feel that way, everyone is entitled to their opinion." Just think about how much disruption, hurt, and relationship destruction this whole incident created.... what a total waste of time. Stosh

Interesting thought Eagle92, but one must also consider the issue of forgiveness (A Scout is Reverent). In the Christian tradition at least we are called to forgive. Why? Because the other person deserves it or because my inability to forgive will eat away at me over the long run? Forgiveness for those who have "lost respect" is not for them. It's for me. Whether it be forgiveness or respect, the issue really boils down to: how does it affect me? Does it drag me down to their level? Or can I rise above and take the high road? It's a tough decision and we aren't always up to the challenge. It takes strong character to be able to pull that off. I guess I'm not ready for someone out there who has wronged me to dictate to me how I must then live life. Do my boys occasionally "dis" me? Sure. Am I going to let them dictate to me how I must then react? Nope. I just keep treating them with respect because that's what I do. Do they eventually come around and treat me with respect? Some do, some don't. But that's their choice and it has no bearing on how I treat others. As far as having others "earn" my respect, does that mean that if they behave for a while they can start to manipulate me and seek my favor? Nope. Does that mean I'm to demand respect and they must conform to my will before I can respect them again? How's that going to build character in them? I find boys do better when they want to, not because they have to. Really interesting discussion! Stosh Stosh

I used to work for a very wealthy individual who had many different businesses throughout the area. His payroll was handled by the office in which I was an employee in. All payroll checks were printed by the old impact printers so that all checks could go out in a pre-sealed envelop. Tear off the edges and you have a check. Well, these checks were all pre-signed.... Yeah, don't go into the comptroller's office and tell him there are two missing checks in the sequence of check numbers. I'm thinking that was the last April Fool's prank I ever played, it took me years to grow back my eyebrows.... There are some things you just don't ever want to see in your life.... Stosh

I had a gentleman remind me many years ago about this word respect and how it has "changed" over the years. Respect is not something other people "earn" which seems to be the general consensus of most moderns. But the word respect is derived from the Latin words "re" which means to repeat or do again and "spect" which derives its meaning from "to see". Specticals (glasses) and Spectator, one who sees or watches. The onus of this respect situation does not rest upon the other person, such as earning respect, but on the one who is doing the respecting, i.e. taking a second look. The issue of respect is: do I allow myself to offer a second look at this person and/or situation? If I have no respect, then I feel my first look was sufficient and the other person doesn't warrant a second look. It is a judgment I participate in. Is that other person worthy or have enough value to me to warrant a second look? It's easier to place the responsibility "on the other person" to absolve all blame on our part, but respect is not an issue of "the other person", but on my part, my judgment, my evaluation, my tolerance, my ability to be able to pause long enough to give the other guy a second chance or at least a second look. People who are concerned only about themselves as is pointed out in Mr. Irish's link shows the immaturity of the younger mind when it comes to this issue. Self-concern when it takes precedent over in a situation allows me to self-justify my own actions to the point where one can even blow off any and all others including one's parents and any others out there who have been given responsibility for one's own welfare. Selfishness, narcissism, intolerance, and a total disrespect for others is but a step away. The scout in the original post made his comments about the cleaning of the camp equipment relative to his own welfare. "Why do I have to do this extra work?" Obviously he was seeing this not as a disrespect to anyone, just the rule. Obviously this rule did not set well with him in his judgment. So he decided not to take a second/broader view of the situation and wrote it off as a dumb rule made by a dumb person. On the other hand, the adult saw this as a personal attack and taking it on face value, decided not to give a second look at the situation and concluded the best route to take was to preserve his personal "honor" and deal directly with the "attack". Both parties were concerned about themselves and offered no second, more mature and thoughtful, look at the situation. This lack of "re-spect" boils down to a rather ugly, win/lose attitude which does no one any good. So, how much respect is due?" Depends on whether or not one wishes to make oneself look like an intolerant jerk. Respect is not for the other guy, it's for me. Do I owe it to myself to re-spect (take a second look at) the other person to better understand why they are doing what they are doing, or do I blow them off as not worthy of my selfish wellbeing? Sorry for the long post, but when it comes to respect, we need to make sure we are all on the same page when it comes to this word respect. Does respect involve me or the other person? Your mileage may vary.... Stosh

Sometimes as SM I wear the green tie. I put that under my collar. Sometimes my WB necker, over the collar, sometimes the troop necker, over the collar, sometimes no necker at all. Sometimes I wear campaign hat, sometimes expedition hat, sometimes garrison cap sometimes a stocking cap when it's cold enough. Neither of these items is official in the troop although most boys wear no hat and troop necker. However, they always wear a uniform shirt and pants. Most have the official scout belt and socks, if they are wearing uniform shorts. Regardless of how well we uniform up or not uniform up, we still wear more uniform than any other troop in the council. Stosh

What goes around comes around. Lead by example. I don't think I or the boys need to earn respect, it should be an assumed given for everyone equally regardless of whether or not they are entitled to it. Giving of respect is a reflection on me, not the other person receiving it. Too often we can make excuses for treating people badly because they didn't measure up to what I think is earned respect. Sorry, that concept will get one in trouble in quick order. People I don't know get respect, not because of THEM. They get it because of ME. I have been questioned on this practice over the course of my lifetime many times. How can you treat that person nicely when they treat you so badly. I always smile and say, "Because I am me and don't want to be like them, and there's nothing they are going to do to change who I am." The young gentleman in this situation needs to learn how this works or this process will occur over and over again in his life. Waiting for someone to earn my respect took too long in many instances in my life, and I just didn't want to waste a lot of my time waiting for it to happen. Because of this, I rarely get pegged the "bad guy" in the situation. Stosh

With a boy-led program, we get very little problems with those associated with Lisabob's comments. As SM I try really hard to keep the issue of respect in the forefront of any situation. When I address the boys, I always use their last name with the "Mr." preceding it. The boys do the same for me. When I address the troop/patrol I don't use "sign's up". I simply wait for the group to quiet down. Interrupting the boys with "sign's up" is just as bad as their interrupting me when I'm trying to talk. If the equipment comes back in bad, it goes out the next time bad. When they complain, it is addressed as, the patrols need to address their problem. It's not something the SM is involved with. However, they did come to me last week with a number of old cast iron fry pans that were in terrible shape from having set in the storage closet for many years. They knew I had cast iron at home and asked me if there was anything that could be done to fix them. I took them home and they look brand new now. That's the first time in 3 years I have had such a request and it was my experience with cast iron. When I talk to the boys for any "infraction" whether it be safety or one of the 3 troop rules, I talk quietly to them, kinda "in their face". This holds their focus, emphasizes the importance of the problem and keeps the issue "private". What goes around comes around. Lead by example. I don't think I or the boys need to earn respect, it should be an assumed given for everyone equally regardless of whether or not they are entitled to it. Giving of respect is a reflection on me, not the other person receiving it. My boys are all taught early on the phrase, "With all due respect....". This means they can address anyone in the troop, whether it be youth or adult, with their concerns without being insolent or insubordinate. That phrase also settles the person down to carefully phrase their concerns in a thoughtful and respectful manner. Stosh

Scouting and Soccer? Why, if one is trying to run a completely different program, would anyone want to compete with something else? Not all boys are athletically inclined. I don't like soccer but I do like Scouting. If one wishes to make scouting more like soccer, I'd get involved in an already established soccer league. The unique thing about Scouting is it's unique nature. I don't need leadership skills to be on the soccer team. That's why there's a coach. I don't need to be a leader in the school classroom, that's what the teacher is for. Same for church activities (pastor) and musical activities (director/conductor). Scouting seems to be the only youth organization that relies on membership leadership development, unless the SM and other adults insist otherwise. No other youth program is designed where the youth are expected to "run the show". The more we make Scouting like all other youth programs, the more we will need to compete for the youth's time. It isn't going to pan out well for Scouting in the long run because all these other programs already have a step up on Scouting. Be prepared might just be a motto that Scouts recite every week at flag ceremonies, but is it a mantra of what the program is supposed to be designed to do? If my Scouts haven't figured out what the Buddy System is after several years of Scouting, how can they understand what marriage is? If my Scouts haven't figured out what the Patrol Method is after their experience in Scouting, how can they understand what family is? These are leadership and maturation skills that are not effectively taught in the schools, churches or YMCA's and they are supposed to be intrinsically built into the program for the Scouts. I view youth programs in just a few diverse ways. Programs that educate, programs that entertain, programs that offer unique experiences for maturation. Only Scouting provide for all these dynamics. Cramming for "finals" might do well in the education department, but lacks a lot in the entertainment area and maturation gets a hit for the last minute push to achieve. Soccer has a wee bit of education to learn the game and teamwork dynamics, but excels in entertainment. Maturation is optional. I could go on forever evaluating all the different youth programs out there, but as far as I can tell, Scouting is the only complete package. I hope it stays that way and doesn't water itself down to be more competitive with programs of lesser overall value to the individual. Just my thoughts, your mileage may vary. Stosh BTW, welcome back Kudu, I missed your input, it has gone a long way to shape my efforts in Scouting!(This message has been edited by jblake47)

Besides Scouts? Let me put it this way, with all the church youth work, music, rare book collecting, reenacting, gardening, coin collecting, sewing, cooking, kayaking/canoeing, x-country skiing, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. I haven't got time for any hobbies. I do take a break at least once a day to go to work. Stosh

Gotta love the Toyota jokes. Runaway Toyota? 1) Put it in neutral. 2) Apply the mechanical handbrake/parking brake. or just call the newspaper and tell them the harrowing experience you had not doing those two simple things. Stosh

There are some other reasons one may wish to "cap" a troop. If the CO's meeting room for a troop can only accommodate 30 boys and the roster is 50 boys there's going to be a problem. Some troops recruit like mad, but their attrition rate is horrendous. They don't have room for the boys they have yet they recruit more. Looks good on paper and the council loves the numbers. We poke along with our little boy-led program, but there's no way these boys can compete with the savvy pitch of an adult-led recruiting program. Our troop meets in a 350 capacity banquet hall while the other in question meet in a 30 capacity club house. We have the room to do anything we want and they have difficulty just having a place for everyone to sit down. Otherwise I don't think I would ever want to deal with the issue of capping membership. If a boy wants in, I'll find him a spot and give him a chance. Stosh

I'm thinking that the 1 on 1 issue in YP that is of concern to everyone might be taking it too far. Obviously there are many times when I'm 20'-25' away from everyone talking to an individual scout that no one is privy to what I'm saying to him. Is this an issue with YP? Generally not. If I am concerned about the conversation I have someone with me especially if it's an issue that I need protection from any accusation that might arise from the youth I deal with it at a later time. Whenever I call a scout at home, I introduce myself before I ask to speak to the youth. That way the parent knows I will be talking to him. If the scout answers the phone I only speak to the issue for which I called. I don't do any "How's it going", kind of personal conversation. That way if the parent has any concern, s/he can address it. "Mr. B called to notify me of the camporee." Any other discussion the boy will not have to discuss with his parent because it doesn't exist. If for example there is tension between the scout and myself, I address it only to the parent and invite them to speak on the issue when the they and the boy can be physically present at the same time. I will not call the scout to set that time up, it will be with the parents. If the parent does not have an email address to cc: to, I cc: the CC instead or an ASM who is familiar with the situation if ever I have a need to contact a boy through email. General messages to all boys are on a distribution list so they all get the same message and I save sent messages for any future considerations. When in doubt, get a witness, but I'm not going to worry about a 1 on 1 conversation I have with a scout about cooking supper at a campout if no one else is in the kitchen area of camp. If I put a boy in an awkward situation, it not only endangers him, but me as well. If it seems awkward, get others in on the conversation. If the conversation starts out okay and then gets awkward, I cut it off and say we will continue it when your parents can be present. If I can't define what that line in the sand is, I shouldn't be a SM. No amount of training will cover up stupidity on my part. Stosh

I would think that on the first day the boys put on the Webelos uniform and start as Webelos they begin the process of organizing themselves. If this entails a new patrol name, etc. then go for it. Anything to get the boys excited about their new role is a good thing. Stosh

The thing that amazed me with that program was the lack of knowledge one had for receiving the message. With modern communication we can interpret and decipher on the fly. With Morse Code in that situation, they were trying to decipher each symbol coming at them before moving on to the next. What they should have done is simply written down the dots and dashes to make sure they got the message and then "decoded" it. The same would hold true to semaphore, Myers, or any other form of communication that is a bit different than direct verbal communication that everyone is used to doing. Even if someone spoke to me in a foreign language, if I write it down phonetically, I might have a chance to translate afterwards. Loved the WWI airplanes in that piece! The uniforms the race contestants wore were BSA Centennial repros! Stosh

I guess I just took it to "too basic" of a level. Cars w/out gas, heck, I can walk or use my bike. But it depends on where I want to go. Grocery store that's closed? Not much truck in that process. If I needed water, do I know where to go and what to do to treat it? If I needed food, do I know where besides the closest closed grocery store to find it? If I find a can of food, can I get it open and process it if I need to? It just depends on the situation and how far back to basics one needs to go to survive whatever calamity may befall. Do I know how to deal with the dead if the situation arises and can I avoid the diseases prevalent following such natural or man made problems? Do I even know what to do if a calamity hits? There's gotta be some form of survival one needs to do besides hiding under the bed. Even if I go to the basement and hunker down in the southwest corner for a tornado do I have the tools, water, first aid supplies and food to get myself out from under a collapsed house? Now these things might be happening someday in the future, but are we preparing our boys to be able to "Be Prepared" for such contingencies? Anything less that a total disaster should be a piece of cake if they are prepared for the worst. Even if they are given personal survival skills, what about spouse and family? Do the boys have the organizational skills to reform community in the collapse of society around them? All of these things are interesting and to a certain extent be prepared for should the occasion arise. Stosh

Whatever food menus one chooses, the basic concept behind my experience was to do all the food preparation prior to the outing. All the food processed and put in plastic bags based on individual amounts per person. If one does this they can control the amounts used/not used and won't be wasting a lot of food. Foil dinners? Prep all the food and everyone gets a bag to make up for the fire. They can decide on their own whether or not they are going to leave out the onions and one doesn't need to make one-size fits all. Chinese Dinner? Everyone dumps their packet of meat and veggies into a dutch oven, dump so much sauce in for every X # of packets added, toss rice into put and then serve up when heated up. The more elaborate the meal the more complicated the process is going to be. For example, how many dutch ovens does one need? Adults eat more than kids. Now, immediately one has to recalculate the whole process. If an adult thinks he/she is going to want two packets, give them two, it adjusts on the fly at camp. Joe and his two kids didn't show, don't make up the food just to toss away. It requires a bit more preparation up front, but one will truly appreciate it once one gets out into the field. The military didn't come up with MRE's out of a void. One meal, one packet, one person. Can't be any simpler. Stosh

I'm thinking that because one puts cake mix in a cobbler, it's really a cake. But then again, a DO is round... Stosh

While we no longer live in a subsistence society, there are plenty of skills that are necessary for self-sufficiency. A decade ago when Y2K was a big thing, everyone ran around like chickens with their heads cut off thinking the world was coming to an end. When they asked me what I was going to do, I simply said I was going to drag out my dutch oven, make a fire and eat supper just like I always did. I figured my house wouldn't disappear overnight, and living next to a woods, I figured I could handle camp cooking for a while. I figured the plumbing still worked until it might have frozen up, but then a dug latrine would work too. My mother taught me all the woman's work skills of cooking, cleaning, etc. and so I can "survive" in a hostile environment quite nicely. In today's world, there are kids that wouldn't last a day with the skills they have. If electricity alone went out could they feed themselves? Without an electric stove or microwave, I'm thinking probably not. In the interest of protecting our children, we have in fact made them defenseless. They couldn't hunt and kill food, they wouldn't know what to do with it if they caught it and it all makes for a pretty dire outlook for the next generations. Heck, without electricity they couldn't even look it up on their blackberries what to do. While interdependency is a great team building goal, if everyone in the group doesn't know a thing about survival, the group becomes nothing more than a group destined to a long slow decline in existence. Even the tried and true vegans out there don't know what plants can be eaten and which ones might be poisonous. Of course, withstanding any mushroom identification process, there might be a few out there that develop the mindset of they don't really care. Stosh

The position of bugler seems to have taken on the image of a passe/historic relic that has hung round for a bit too long. However, if one were to review what the bugler actually did 100 years ago, it would renew a bit of interest once more. The bugler was pre-radios, walkie-talkies, and cell phones. These new forms of communication have taken over in the past 50 years. However, how does one communicate in a non-electronic outdoor world. Bugle of course. But we don't do that. We yell, we send runners, we do all sorts of things that would be facilitated by a better organized outdoor communication system and the bugle fits the bill better than anything else. It used to be that a PL was identified by the whistle he wore on a lanyard. It wasn't just a pretty thingy he wore around his neck, it was how he communicated to his patrol members. The bugler was used to communicate to the troop. Bugle calls carry further than whistle calls. Unfortunately the position has fallen by the wayside. Now we have sirens and such at camps to be used in emergency situations only. Other than that, how does one get the boys down at the beach back to camp? Send someone down there and tell them to head back. How efficient is that? Bugling has become nothing more than a ceremonial relic of the past. Historically the bugle was used to get the boys up in the morning, call them to meals, church, flag ceremonies, get them to bed at night, etc. Now, only two or three calls are even identifiable and then they are used (except for reveille) are used at inappropriate times. A few on the forum may know and have heard reveille in the morning and taps at night. But taps is also inappropriately played at closing flags. Ever hear anyone play Assembly? Here the troops are to collect up their boys and get ready for flags, about 15 minutes before flags. Then To the Colors, and the troops proceed to the flag field. Your troop is scattered all over camp and it's time to eat, anyone know what mess call is? Today's bugler, plays a couple of ditties a day and gets POR credit. However, an operational communicator/bugler just doesn't fit into today's world because most people have forgotten what the POR is really supposed to be doing. Whenever I attend a Civil War reenactment where the boys do know what these calls are, the first thing I do as adjutant of the regiment is find out if I have a functional bugler for the weekend. If I do, I know my job is going to be a ton lot easier. The bugling MB has these calls as do many military bugle manuals. BSA used to produce a pamphlet that has all these calls in them and when to use them. If I'm a SM sitting at the campfire drinking my coffee and the boys need to be back in camp, all I do is say, "Bugler, get the boys back in camp." or "Grubmasters have the dinner ready in 10 minutes, call the patrols in." A good bugler will immediately cut, at least, in half the time to get the boys back to camp. Sending a runner or relying on watches the boys don't look at anyway, means a 5 minute job can turn into a half hour ordeal of looking all over the place without a functional bugler. Stosh

I don't adhere to the idea that too much camping will burn out the boys in Boy Scouts. There's no such thing as too much fun from my point of reference. However, with that being said, one does not have to camp to have a quality outdoor activity for the boys. Suppose they want to do some cooking. They plan the meals, get the items needed, toss in a day pack, hike 5 miles out into the woods, build a fire, cook lunch and then hike home. Take time to identify plants and animals, enjoying the day. All these things are great for getting the boys ready for Boy Scouts but don't need the heavy work of camping out every time, especially in the winter months when it might be a wee bit cold. Hikes, fishing, day at the pool (all do the BSA swim test), all build relationships with the boys and cost little or not investment money on the boys. Of course all these things tie into the Webelos pin program as well. Get to know a bit about the Boy Scout program, identify areas where the pins over lap the Boy Scout requirements and have at it. National as introduced the historic merit badge Signaling. This would be a great thing to get an old Signalling MB book and use it as a challenge to the Communicator Pin. Anytime you can kill two birds with one stone, go for it. The boys will have a great time whether it's on a campout or a hike. Maybe do a few hikes for cooking, packing, etc. as a means to build up to a really nice campout in the summer time. I like the idea of a monthly activity but it doesn't need to be all camping. I started camping when I was 4 years old and have kept it up for 55 years without burning out. The burn out argument is bogus. I used to camp with my family from late April to middle of October, every weekend in Wisconsin. When I travel I always camp instead of hotels. The key is to build up to it and not start out with your first race being the Indy 500. Let your boys work into it gradually and give them time to appreciate every step of the way. Stosh

I'm thinking that swine herder was a close relative to the sheep herder who in the interest of LNT had stuffed a gut full of whatever was left over for a couple of weeks' dinner, boiled it up and had a feast. Stosh

I usually don't think pointing out spelling errors in a post, and I apologize to bearshark for mentioning it. But it is kinda important to me. Is the proper spelling beret or barrette? I would think that green beret would be totally appropriate, but a green barrette might have some GSA overtones that caused some concern for the CC. Stosh

Hmmm, how is trail clearing not maintenance? We had a boy clean up a hiking trail that was built back in the 1930's by the CCC. It was stone paved and needed to be found, cleared and surface turf removed to expose the original surface. Major project that the state park really appreciated. Sounds like there is more to this issue than what appears on the surface. I have had Eagle projects questioned by the approval board as to its merits, but never rejected. I had one project questioned where a boy was to go through multiple cemeteries, evaluate military graves to make sure there was a stone (family or military) and if the stone was legible and in good condition. The "labor" on the project was to evaluate all the stones and record their condition. This information was complied and the boys sat down and filled out applications to replace, which the VA did at their own expense. Leadership was in the organizing teams, surveying the cemeteries and coordinating the follow up paperwork. The board was not all that impressed but approved. The boy got front page press in his local community newspaper, front page/second section of the regional AND state newspapers. Even if BSA didn't quite see it's merits, the rest of the world surely did. My most recent Eagle project was the restoration of a Veteran's park that had been left to deteriorate for 40 years. The park existed on paper, but one wouldn't know it existed. The boy did not "finish" the project because it was too extensive for one project, but what it did do was spark enough interest in the VFW and Am. Legion posts in the area to commit to future tables, benches, flag pole and memorial stone which he organized to make sure the park in it's entirety would be some day "completed" back to it's original state. I'm thinking that there are probably another 4-5 Eagle projects in that location to complete the park. If the boy feels it is within the appropriate scope of an Eagle project, I would suggest to the boy he go back to the board and make his case. That's part of the leadership necessary for the project. As an adult, I wouldn't step in and take that opportunity away from him. Stosh

Gee OGE, now you've gone and turned a perfectly innocent thread into a major controversy! Pie is basically a crusted baked item. Cakes are not. So where does cheesecake fit in? Or how about Shepherd's Pie? Chicken/Beef pot pie? Pizza pie? Does the pie have to be round and cooked in a pie pan? Or does a pasty count as a pie because of the crust and ingredients? A custard pie is really no different than a cheese cake in preparation except one has an egg base while the other has cheese. When I'm at home I make a chocolate chip cheesecake in a 9" X 13" cake pan, but when I'm doing Dutch oven cooking, I use the same recipe with 2 - 9" pie pans. Is it that I just suffer from some identity crisis here? Is there some culinary rule that if one can't measure the baking utensil using Pi, it isn't pie? I'd carry on this argument further, but I'm beginning to drool on my keyboard. Stosh

BWCA, Sea Base, Philmont, Isle Royale, RAGBRAI, fishing in Canada? Appalachian Trail, Estes Park, ... Gee, there's a ton of things out there that one could do. Some of them have established programs, others would require a bit of organizational planning, but the boys have a whole 2 years to make plans. Shouldn't be a problem unless one waits until the last minute... All the resources are in the BS literature, meal planning, MB books, etc. all offer "program" for the week. Maybe do backpacking/hiking MB's. Cycling, etc. all lend themselves to a bit more adventure than showing up at summer camp and having someone else "plan out the fun". I have found that some of the older boys who have been there and done it all, like a more laid back, less structured, doing something 24/7 is a drain. Maybe the only accomplishment one gets done all week is just having fun. Stosh Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)