Stosh

>>Unfortunately only the DAM award is awarded from the district, all the rest are council or nationally awarded. Thus the reason why the knot is the only knot with an overhand knot and all the rest are the full square knot.

My experience of dealing with historical artifacts is to NOT CLEAN THEM. They are what they are, preserve them AS IS. Any amount of cleaning will harm the item. One does not polish coins, they do not clean textiles, they do not repair damage. If people in museums handle everything with white cotton gloves because human skin oil will harm the item, what cleaning agent will not do even more damage? If the item is damaged to the point where one leg of a uniform trouser may be literally hanging by a thread, repair with a contrasting color with large basting stitches. This will let the viewer of the item know that it has been repaired by the museum. If one matches colors and tries to "hide" the repair, maybe that was assumed to be part of the historical importance of the piece when in fact it is not. My necker I had as a kid has somehow over the years come in contact with paint. Do I use a harsh chemical to remove the paint or just accept the paint as part of it's historical journey. I wear it with the paint on it. Consult the archives of a reputable museum before touching anything. Remember your local historical society and the little museum they maintain at the little local public library may not have the expertise you're looking for. Stosh

Somehow I get the feeling that often times we make too big of a technical issue out of something that is supposed to be quite easy. Are we counting days or are we counting months? 4-month or 6-month means 1/15 means 5/15 is 4 months later. 7/15 is 6 months later. To count days when you're measuring months is not the intention. If your tenure includes a leap year, bummer. If your tenure has a February of 28 days, you get a break over those who don't have a February. Get over it, it's just one day and that day you probably didn't do anything related to scouting except do your good turn and live the Scout Spirit. If the scout has procrastinated to the point where his Eagle is dependent on counting days, then there's something seriously wrong with his leadership ability to plan accordingly. He's got 7 years to figure out how to get his Eagle. That should be sufficient amount of time. For those who measure in days that's 2556 or 2557 days, depending on whether there's one or two leap years and if he joined up on his birthday. Otherwise you need to add the variance of whether or not he earned his AOL at 10 1/2 years of age and crossed over. Or maybe he joined after his 11th birthday then it would be less. Then you have to decide whether one starts counting on the day he crosses over, or the first meeting of the troop, or whether one goes by the date on the application. There's a lot of things one has to consider here.... There's got to be some easier way to deal with this, but maybe not. Stosh

>> "Mmmm, I believe most scouter awards are from the district. >> Why do folks struggle with an award intended for work done at the district level?" Unfortunately only the DAM award is awarded from the district, all the rest are council or nationally awarded. Thus the reason why the knot is the only knot with an overhand knot and all the rest are the full square knot. And the reason folks struggle with it is because of the conflict between what people think it is and what the requirements state it is. Like a lot of things, the perception is not the reality. What your district traditionally holds as to their interpretation may not be what is what the program intends. It is this way with a lot of what gets discussed on this forum. Stosh

Huh? I'm in my own virtual forest enjoying myself, it don't get any better than this! Does this mean my laptop's background picture of a campfire isn't going to cook my virtual supper? What really concerns me is that there are people out there that seriously thought these ideas were really good ones! Ghayes: - whatever it is the people are smokin' in that council it's some really good S....! The ultimate high adventure! God save us all! Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

I'm beginning to think it's not the Rank of Eagle which is the problem, but the perception, expectations and emphasis placed on it as something which it was never intended to be. It's not the holy grail of Scouts, it is just another rank, the last one which one can attain. Am I to be awe-inspired over the scout who is able to finish the program? I'm not all that impressed with Valedictorians and yet they stand at the highest point of their high school success ladder and remain an even smaller percentage than Eagle Scouts. The hype of Eagle is more than the award has come to mean. All it means is that the boy has fulfilled a set of requirements by which he is measured both objectively and subjectively and had attained a rank in the scouting program. Okay is this any different than the world of education getting a diploma or advanced degree? Kindergarten (Tigers) and then al the way to PhD (Eagle). What percent of the population has a PhD? Oooh, aaah! Okay, how about the military? Buck private (Tenderfoot) and then all the way to General (Eagle), What percent of the population holds or has held the rank of General? Oooh, aaah! I know I'm going to take flack for these comments, but when one looks at the situation without all the emotional hype and star-studded enamored stares, how is it any different? And what about all the boys that just are in scouts and don't aspire to Eagle. Well, they enjoy the program and it's no big deal they don't reach the rank of Eagle. Yeah, right, and it's no big deal they don't get their high school diploma either.... How is the scout who drops out of scouts any different than the student who drops out of school? What are the cultural dynamics that make these issues different from one another or are they basically all really just the same? To me Scouting is a leadership development program whereas those who "graduate" have a solid understanding of what service, citizenship and leadership is all about. I understand that this is not for everyone. Not everyone has a PhD and not everyone is a General. So be it. Calico - I don't think that X number of service hours is the same thing as identifying, organizing and leading others in service. That's the process that makes the Eagle project supposedly better. I think the boys ought to do 2-3 Eagle projects instead of 2-3 different service thingies. The only "take-away" I can offer in this discussion is the unfortunate conclusion that we all face. If a person achieves a PhD it is expected that that person teaches and contributes even more to the world of education. If a person achieves the rank of General it is expected that that person lead the armies as needed in the fields of conflict. However, it seems to be the tradition that Eagles to just quit. Remnants of their accomplishments may be fleetingly evident in their family lives, their work lives, their contributions to their communities, but what percentage of Eagles wear the Eagle scouter knot on a shirt and promote Eagle to the next generation? How many organize community projects and inspire citizenship, community service and helping others in their arena of influence? Yeah, my point exactly! Stosh

There are those who seek the recognition of others and for the most part I don't see this as a problem. If they want the Silver Beaver, great, go for it. There are those who don't see the need for the recognition and if they never get the Silver Beaver, they'll never lose one moment of sleep over it. Both can do well and be very successful in their efforts and as long as the boys reap the benefit, this is a good thing. But there can be and sometimes are times when the position of recognition is used to determine a person's "status" in an organization. I don't know how to go about changing other peoples' feelings about why they might do this, so I don't even try. As long as there are no negative repercussions in the process that will reflect on the boys or reduce their opportunities for successful development, I say more power to ya. On the other hand if it gets in the way, I just move on down the road and find a better view of the world. I have so many hours in the day and I chose to devote them to the scouts and their program, not the adults and theirs. Stosh

To a certain degree I have to go along with Beavah on this, but not to the degree he proposes. Like any well-meaning effort on the part of people to recognize and/or honor others who are doing something special for the organization, there should be some sort of award. Maybe a plaque that can be hung on a wall or tossed in the bottom of a drawer, or maybe a bauble to hang on the shirt. I guess it doesn't make a whole lot of difference one way or the other. I have seen those who have a plain uniform shirt with minimum patches and then there are those who have so many knots on them that there's no place for the universal scouting patch. I don't have a problem with any of it. However, what I find a problem with, and which harkens back to what this thread is all about is how these recognition awards are not recognizing the person in as much as they are symbols of who is and who is not in the GOBN. On another thread there was some discussion on whether or not non-WB people should be getting woggles and/or beads. The initial knee-jerk would imply that the GOBN would lose control of who got them and who didn't and the dynamics of the network would be disturbed. Our DAM nominations come from a "committee" of those who already have the award and who gather at the roundtable meeting. Sure, others can nominate, but they have a snowball's chance in hell of ever getting considered. If this doesn't smack of GOBN, what does? As I mentioned I got "in" under some rather different circumstances (promoted by a DE who would like to see the process change a bit), and ever since I have been politely invited into the committee to nominate the next DAM awardees. I politely decline because I don't know who half these people are and how they operate in their units and what they are providing for the scouts and others in their communities. Someone from the unit needs to get that down on paper and make a nomination separate from a "review committee" whose focus is relying on who did what for the district this past year. Sally Mae did the Cub Day Camp, Judy did the Pinewood Derby and John headed up the Spring Camporee. Their focus is district only and thus the DAM award is as been suggested, interpreted as district only considerations. Nope, for me I want to look at a nomination form that is filled up front and back of all the things the ASM of a troop did to make it happen for the boys, and the work he does on his church council, and his involvement with the Rotary Club and the fact that he coaches Little League in his free time. That's the Scouter that isn't in the GOBN but deserves the award for the fact that he actually lives the Scout Spirit he teaches his boys. So, I'd be on-board for an adult award for this person and wouldn't be in too much of a hurry to totally do away with adult awards because the process has been somewhat tainted by a few GOBs. Stosh

Gotta have at least one tree to be camping.... and it can't be in a pot... and a bird would help.... If this was my camporee, I'd figure out some way to trigger the sprinkler system just for some scouting reality to the farce. Then it'd be worth the $20! Stosh

What I find troubling is that the requirements for the award do not state that the nature of the efforts be only on a district level. Only the introductory commentary may allude to it with a vaguely stated comment. I don't see this as a compelling argument for making it a district only effort. >> REQUIREMENTS >> 1. A nominee must be a registered Scouter. No one's arguing this point. >>2. A nominee must have rendered noteworthy service to youth in Scouting, outside Scouting, or both. Note: The nature and value of noteworthy service to youth may consist of a single plan or decisions that contributed vitally to the lives of large numbers of youth or it may have been given to a small group over an extended period of time. Okay, noteworthy service to youth outside of Scouting? How is this possible if it is District only service and with it being a BOTH option, how does one render noteworthy service to youth outside of scouting and not be a District effort? I'm thinking the requirement statement is very clear that it is not just a district "level" effort. >> 3. Consideration must be given to the nominees Scouting position and the corresponding opportunity to render outstanding service beyond the expectations of that Scouting position. Obviously it must be more than just the expected. >> 4. The nominees attitude toward and cooperation with the district and/or council is to be taken into consideration. How does one do a district level contribution without cooperating with the district? Kinda leaves that one up in limbo as well and if it's a district level award, what's the council got to do with it, it has the Silver Beaver to cover that... ??? >> 5. Nominations cannot be considered for posthumous awards. "So, in other words, just hang around long enough and wait in line for your turn. Yep, that award would carry a lot of respect." I work an average of 2080 hours a year for my employer. That's 40 hours per week for 52 weeks. Last year I contributed 1750 hours of volunteer hours to several organizations in my community, the bulk of which was my Scout troop. If I were just standing around waiting in line, I'm sure putting a lot of time and effort into that wait.... "Apples and oranges is exactly what I meant. You don't give an apple award to an orange. You give an orange award to an orange. Hence, the name DISTRICT Award of Merit." If I do an outstanding job for my unit, I may receive an award for those efforts. But no one will ever recognize a person's efforts for their church, their community, or other organizations (Lion's, Kiwanis, Mason's, etc.) that are benefited by a Scout leader's good turn efforts. Hence, there needs to be a BSA vehicle by which our top leaders are doing more than just being a good SM or ASM or CC, but are actually living the Scout Spirit in their everyday lives. I don't see this as limited to only Cub Day camp, camporee, committee and FOS efforts. To limit it to this is to limit the importance of the award. "When you combine the name DISTRICT Award of Merit with the General Information statement, "The award is available to Scouters who render service of an outstanding nature at the district level" I find it hard to believe anyone would have trouble understanding the intent of this award." Nope, not one of the requirements. Only a vague statement of intent, but not one of the requirements. I'm thinking that by limiting the award to district level efforts only is in fact contradictory to the requirements explicitly spelled out in the requirements section. Stosh

Obviously the phrase "The award is available to Scouters who render service of an outstanding nature at the district level." can be interpreted a couple of different ways. Just changing the words around clarifies the alternative meaning. The award is available at the district level to Scouters who render service of an outstanding nature. Now that might be just a different understanding of the phrase and one could play that game all day long and yet it does not alter in any way shape or form the REQUIREMENTS section. There it specifically does not state the accomplishments need to be done on a district level, but are accomplishments recognized at the district level. The Requirements section supports the award being awarded at the District level for outstanding service to scouting. Because of the various "interpretations" out there that everyone runs around championing, the intent and honor of the award have taken on various interpretations of it's importance and respect as well. Regardless of who wears the knot, those that have put 15, 20, 25 years of dedicated service to youth far outweigh and deserve (in my book) the award far more than someone who has put together a couple of Cub day camps or Scout Camporees, or merely served on the FOS district committee and did a couple of FOS presentations at a Blue Gold or two. For this reason the District Award of Merit and/or Silver Beaver really don't hold the respect they deserve. Of course of one is a GOB their interpretation is going to be far different than mine. I was told that when I received the DAM, it was a "break in tradition" from what they had been doing and was awarded because of my many years of service to youth and not because of anything on a district level. Because of that I wear the knot. Had it not been under those conditions, I wouldn't. Does that mean I don't do anything on the district or council level? Absolutely not, but I don't do anything "outstanding" like head up a Camporee/Day Camp, but I just roll up my sleeves and help out as much as I can to make it happen for the boys. Stosh

Buffalo, Something has changed for these boys. Either it's in his personal life or in the life in the troop. Can't do much if it's in his personal life, but if it's in the troop, you can do lots to fix it. Is he's an older boy has progressed to a point where he is becoming an adult peer with the adult cadre or is he just another boy who has all the responsibility without the rewards or even simple appreciation of leadership? Do the leaders look to him for guidance as they would each other? Do his comments carry some weight? Is he recognized for his efforts in the troop? Does he make decisions that the adults back? Boys of this age seek recognition and acceptance. Is he being accepted by the adults? Just because he's under the age of 18 doesn't mean he can't be viewed and treated as an adult, especially if he is getting to the point where his maturity reflects it. If I bust my butt for the troop and will always be "just a kid" why bother! Worse yet, he ages out, becomes an ASM and is STILL "just a kid"! There's a lot of lip-service bantered around about leadership of the boys, but is it really happening for the boys? I find it evident many times that the boys feel they are trying to do the leadership/maturity thingy, but not getting much traction. It's like they get more and more responsibility, but not the "perks" that go with it and sometimes not even the true authority to get the job done. Have you ever had a SM conference with a boy who made a stupid rule that you publicly backed and yet at a later time visited with the boy in private saying that rule was kinda dumb or unjust? My boys hang around because they are truly needed and appreciated by the adults of the troop. No, they're not perfect and they make mistakes, (so do we as adults) but as long as we have their backs and they don't feel abandoned, they don't tend to want to leave either. My boys all go to bed about 10:00 pm. My youth leadership doesn't have a curfew. The last thing I say to them before heading off to bed is a cheerful reminder to knock down the campfire before they head off to bed. If they are turning in at the same time I help them knock down the fire. It's the same thing I would say to any adult at that point. If it's a boy-led program, these boys are the closest thing to the adults in the group, treat them that way. If one can't treat them as adults, then one has to rely on an adult-led emphasis for leadership. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

The change in program identified is because of the attitude towards Eagle. Program changes were made so that more boys would be inclined to seek the Eagle and thus more boys would/could attain it. It had nothing to do with changes in thinking that Eagle was the Holy Grail of the BSA, it was only a few program changes made to entice and enable more boys to go for it. For me all it did was emphasize a part of the process that was over-emphasized in the first place. I have a young man who attained the rank of Eagle before aging out of the program. He is now taking the adult leader training and is my ASM. His requirements are over and done with and yet he continues on with the quest of his Eagle project. He cleaned up a park that needed restoration. It was a Veteran's park and although he's gotten all the "credit" he'll ever need for Eagle, he has recently attained 2 more commitments for park benches and another for putting in bar-b-que grates. He continues to seek donations for picnic tables. His emphasis has gone from local assistance to county as well as multiple support organizations. The project was done for the city's Parks and Recreation Department, but now the American Legion and Veterans of Foreign Wars are on-board. One of the benches mentioned above is from a private individual who became aware of the project through the media coverage the young man is promoting. Two national veterans groups have put his name in for Boy Scout of the Year for the state. Is that what motivates the boy? He doesn't even know of the nomination at this point. So I have to ask the question: What's going on here? He's got the Eagle rank, the project is done, he's aged out, and yet he keeps right on as if nothing's changed. Sometimes I get the feeling that the Eagle isn't as important than what he's doing for the Veterans. Is that the result of the Eagle Rank or the character/leadership development of the program? What did the lad do to just get by? - Well, he turned his Eagle project in "half done" at the last minute. Sound familiar? However, the EBOR commented there was enough work completed on his project for 3 projects. But he had to write it up and turn it in which he did a week before he turned 18. He almost didn't get his Eagle. So, one can change the "program" to create whatever interesting hoops they wish to so more can jump through, but the over-emphasis on Eagle pretty much stayed the same. Stosh

I have a 1937 necker I plan on wearing at the Centennial Jamboree. I have a 1960's uniform I plan on wearing at the Centennial. I have a 1910 reproduction military uniform with BSA buttons I am also planning on wearing. That might be stretching it a bit, but in 1910 the only uniform available were the US military uniforms. I also plan to wear my original scout necker I wore as a kid in the early 1960's at the Jamoree. It's the only part of my original uniform I still fit into. I say, go for it. A scout uniform never goes out of style. If a boy wants to wear a uniform from the 1950's or 1960's there's nothing wrong with it. I have two boys in my troop right now that wear that uniform all the time. BSA uniforms never become obsolete, and especially during the centennial year, wear it! Stosh

I'm thinking it wouldn't make a major impact on the day-to-day operations of most of the BSA program. It's nice to "graduate" out eventually and that's basically what the rank is viewed as. I have worked in rank emphasized programs of the BSA and was involved in a non-rank emphasized program. Both were/are successful in their different ways. Some of the boys in the non-rank emphasized program (Venturing) the boys had a successful program and none even considered doing anything for rank of any sort. Before anyone gets all in a tizzy about a non-rank program in Venturing, my group chose not to get involved even when the rank issue was offered. Anyone who says that by removing the Eagle rank it will reduce the quality of the BSA program probably doesn't understand that the program will remain the same, only the emphasis or over-emphasis people place on Eagle will change. Look at the issue of the palms.... a nice program to add to the importance of the Eagle, none of which is even discussed. Eagle, the minimum, is all that counts as if it's the 7th Heaven/Cloud Nine/Nirvana/Oooh, Aaah/Mecca of the BSA world. Palms are nothing more than busy work to fill the time until the boy ages out, but aren't of much value otherwise. Sorry, if a boy comes into the program and goes through all the steps of maturity and character/leadership building the program provides and doesn't dink around, come and go, and/or are pressured by parents, etc. he should be able to simply move up the ranks and enjoy his experience. 7 years is more than enough to make the Eagle rank and have change left over at the end for multiple palms. The difference would be in the attitude of the people, not the program itself. I'm thinking there will be a lot less of the returning boys that come back and take time from the program so the adult leaders can get these boys up to rank and get some personal recognition medal kinda thingy. For the most part, I'm thinking the boys are wanting the recognition over the accomplishment anyway. Stosh

Boys who "drop out" after a year or two have never found the value of the program. What good has this program been providing? If "little" or "nothing" is the answer, then it is best they move on to find something that does provide benefit for their lives. If the program/leadership of the troop cannot provide something of value for the boy, then there's something wrong. Those that do find value in the program never consider the drop-out option. If scouting is the next best thing to sliced bread, why would anyone want to go back to eating watered soup? Every time we offer up the BSA program to the scouts, are we primarily offering something of lasting value or just something that we dreampt up, or something that we found it Wood's Wisdom, etc. Is there depth of understanding, promoting a love of the outdoors, an appreciation of nature, etc. If not, then the boys will drift and life goes on. But if the program is dynamic, alive, interesting and every time the boy goes home he's immediately looking forward to the next time the group gathers, then there will be no need to having to hang on to anyone that is drifting away. Stosh

Horizon, I'm thinking your argument has a few holes in it. One cannot get a high school diploma without going to school any more than a boy can get Eagle without going through the BSA program. Yet, it is up to the child to study and accomplish the task either way. To say a child is not in control of their fate is to say it's a waste of time to go to kindergarten because they're going to drop out along the way. If a school district has a 25% dropout rate, why not just limit the enrollment and not waste the taxpayers' money on a fruitless endeavor. Pick the best and brightest and focus the limited resources where it will do the most good. Nope, one has to assume that every kindergarten student will graduate and every Tenderfoot will Eagle and it's in the hands of the person themselves to decide - 100%. To think that it is otherwise, is to assume that the credit or partial credit goes to someone other than the Eagle or graduate. I'm not thinking that anyone would assume that, or even want to assume that. Like the local school district, the BSA provides an opportunity for the kids. It's up to them whether they care enough to finish the process or not. If they don't want to, there's no amount of bribery, cajoling, etc. that is going to get them there unless the person putting the pressure on wishes to take a fair amount of credit for the achievement. We have had a few of those "shared" Eagles where the boy and his parent are basically co-recipients of the award. "When helping is a waste of time"? When the boy no longer cares and has mentally, emotionally, and many times physically divested himself of the program. Sure, he may occasionally show up, take a spot in the room, but doesn't show any interest in being involved, or just enough enrollment to get "credit" for showing up. Is this Eagle material? Even if the award is presented, is this Eagle material? Yes there comes a time when helping is a waste of time. It's when the boy has decided he no longer values any continuation in the program. That's a decision that only the boy can make - 100% control of his fate in Scouting. Horizon, we're basically on the same page, I'm just looking from the perspective of the mental and emotional investment... that part has to come 100% from the boys or it's kind of a waste of time to pressure the boy into something he doesn't value anyway, and if Dad wants his boy to be an Eagle because he's an Eagle, that may not be a valid reason to provide all the energy to get him the award. Stosh

Hmmmm.... The issue isn't the resume, it's the GOBN.... I have served as SM for SM Fundamentals. (Council-wide) I have served as the only trainer for Webelos outdoors for many years. (Council-wide) I have done my share of Cub day camp "volunteering". (Council-wide) I have done my share of camporee "volunteering". (District) I have done my share of teaching at University of Scouting (working on a doctorate at the present) (District) I have held MC, ASM, SM, and CA positions for 20 years. (Unit) I have been instrumental in starting over 40 new units over the years. I currently serve in a unit that was on the verge of collapse 2 years ago and now have solid numbers and a growing program. I can't remember the last Roundtable I missed. I can't remember the last District event I missed. Totally surprised that I was selected for leadership at the National Jamboree. Totally surprised that the two 3rd ASM's (18-21 yr. old ASM) (Council has two contingents) are both from my units. I was more excited about hearing that than getting selected myself. However, I haven't done the more visible jobs like FOS for the district which usually locks up Silver Beaver in our council. I don't hold committee positions that let me rub elbows with the GOB's directly. If given a choice of "hanging with the boys", the boys I would chose would be those under 18 years of age.... Just heard a week or so ago, that one of my boys just got nominated for "Boy Scout of the Year" Award for the State of Wisconsin by two different organizations. Nope, gonna die in the trenches... Everything else is smoke and mirrors. I don't want to be perceived as "bashing" the District Award of Merit, it just isn't as important to me as one of my boys getting recognized. I'm only saying that unless one is prepared to run with the big dogs, it may be a while before it ends up in your backyard. That process is in no way reflective of the award, just those awarding it. Stosh If it's boy-led, then I'm just along for the ride....

Troop 24: A Scout is Courteous. That means the boy courteously removes his hat if necessary and courteously leaves it on the heads of others. Stosh

My suggestion: 1) Protect the grass - some sort of heat reflective material, foil covered cardboard would work. 2) Heat insulation - (air) 3 small spacers, i.e. rocks, whatever... 3) Charcoal holder - some sort of fire holding item - pie pan, but make sure it is not just the flimsy aluminum kind in that they don't hold up to heat very well. Old steel pie pans work great or even an old obsolete fry pan would work too if the handle wasn't a problem. 4) Pop cans to hold the baking items. Remember one is baking so depending on available resources, indirect heat is better than a pie plate directly under the baked good. Tin cans with air holes poked in the bottom will hold small amounts of charcoal in the 4 corners of the box oven. Just make sure the holes are not blocked for circulation to the coals. If you do it this way make sure your baked good is still elevated. It needs hot air to circulate all around the baked good. Remember the larger the box the more charcoal is needed. A probe meat thermometer would be nice. You're looking for 350-degrees for most baked goods. Just poke the probe into the box and take a reading. If you get pretty close to 350, you ought to be able to bake right off the directions on the recipe. Stosh

I finally have my M-1912 uniform and have a question for all you BSA history buffs out there. Were the BSA uniform buttons brown painted brass or shiny brass? I have the buttons but can't tell if the dark on them is patina or paint. Stosh

If a Lone Scout can make Eagle, then anyone can. If adults are tossing in hurdles and obstacles, the boy needs to step up and call them on it. I believe that every boy that joins my troop is going to be an Eagle. I do everything in my power to keep the hurdles and obstacles out of the way. Then it's 100% up to the boy to get there. Does that mean he does it without any help? Of course not. If he asks for help he get what he needs. Every boy in my troop that doesn't get Eagle has to make that choice on his own. What he does to get it reflects on its value to him. If he gets it only because he will get his driver's license because that's the carrot mom and dad put out there, then that's all it's going to be. The boy is in control of his destiny, it's up to him to figure out how it works. Stosh

Can the report be written to file? There should be a print-to-file option when it comes to printing the report. Then have them email it to you. Then just import position delimited into Excel. Otherwise, cut/paste the report into Word from the Scoutnet display, Then have them email it to you. Then import position delimited into Excel. If you have the time, you can always comma edit the report and then comma delimit into Excel. It would be a lot easier than hand copying it. If the data is digital and or someone can see it on the computer screen, you shouldn't have any major trouble getting it into Excel. Stosh

Basement, I wasn't trying to discredit your post, only to point out that one doesn't need to be a GOB to get in on the BSA program. Anyone willing to work, even in the least bit, i.e. swing by another boy's house and pick him up for a meeting because his parents can't get him there, is "in the club" in my book. The GOBN strata that seems to permeate the BSA program is in my opinion not very constructive for the boys. Everyone's mileage may vary. Basement, what you are describing is more of a dedicated scouter than a GOB participant. And for all the WB snobs out there. I have beads and a woggle and because I got them pre-2000 doesn't mean my training was inferior to yours. And no, I'm not going to take the course a second time to come up to snuff and join your GOBN for the 21st Century. Our council wanted WB/21st for the SM/ASM corps of leadership to the Nat'l Jamboree. Because of this I didn't even bother putting my name in. However, they came to me, requested I do, was selected and I was assigned ASM in charge of the boys. Boy-led, patrol-method forever! Sometimes peoples' judgments are based on something other that GOBN woggles and beads. I'm thinking I'm finally breaking into the GOBN of the council though... after 20 years, I finally got District Award of Merit.... All my buddies have pulled off Silver Beaver many moons ago..... Why? They told me because I didn't do anything for the district or council and spent all my time working just with just the boys.... Yeah! Ain't it great! Stosh

I'm thinking the discussion about following rules doesn't over-ride the issue that hats in dining halls is a courtesy rule/issue and descent camp footwear is a safety rule/issue. I'm thinking that there probably isn't going to be any major head trauma if someone snatches a scout uniform hat off a scout who is entering a dining hall whereas there could be major foot trauma if a boy steps on a wire style tent stake in sandals. And I have had dining hall personnel try and remove my uniform hat they come into some stiff resistance. First of all it's part of my uniform and when I sit down to eat, I will courteously remove it. However, wearing it in doors is a long accepted tradition in the BSA unless the building is a place of religious worship and then the hat is removed or left on depending on the custom of the worshipers. However, if I were to be wearing a non-uniform hat then I would expect to remove it and the dining hall personnel who is standing there in their blue jeans and uniform shirt is expected to remove his/her pants when I remove my hat. So far I haven't any takers. Stosh