Stosh

Hmmm... I have 10 years experience as a Venturing Advisor, 20 years as SM/ASM in Boy Scouts, and 40 years experience with working with youth groups. Except for the Girls and handguns, all the rest can be handled within the average troop. So if one is hammering on the SM to start a Venturing Crew, my vote would be leave him out of it. Go do your own thingy and good luck. To stlhiker, try barking up a different tree. I'm with the stubborn SM on this one. Starting a Venturing crew isn't necessary. "10. FINALLY we can become a scout-run unit. No adults planning the same program year. Thankfully those adults reliving their boy scout days tend to stay back in boy scout troops (Oww, the truth hurts)." A properly run scout troop wouldn't have this problem. I don't have this problem in my troop. As a matter of fact, I have more problems with trying to get the boys to lead themselves than I do keeping adults out of the way. Without proper training, the semi-experienced adults will still run a better program than inexperienced youth. "9. No Advancement Method. No adults on our back about badges. Have enough pressure with SATs, college entrance ... We learn, help, go on adventures, and have fun." Yep, we ain't no MB Mill. The boys do the advancement they wish. If along the way they aren't having fun, they are breaking one of the troop rules! A lot of my boys like the advancement thingy, it gives them a sense of accomplishment that they control at their own pace. Sometimes leadership, i.e. leading others, requires more than worrying about one's self, i.e. SAT's college, etc. "8. No attendance pressure. Fewer, BETTER meetings and outings. We can now do it all - School, Sports, Jobs, and Scouting without "participation penalties" (which of course are illegal)" Family, church, and school are all higher priorities than Scouting and my boys don't seem to miss many meetings/outings. Those priorities held for both troop and crew. Attendance was pretty much the same between both groups. "7. No camp (and only camp) outing every month mentality. We decide our own interests and plan activities accordingly to fit our schedule." Yep, same for me. My boys planned out their activities and now that they didn't have anyone qualify for OA # of camping nights in 2 years, they are angry and putting in more than enough camp outings for next year. Sometimes when given enough rope, they'll actually hang themselves. It goes along with the old adage, "Be careful of what you wish for." "6. More fun to be in a small group of similar age, interests who want to be there than a large troop of 11-18 year olds who mostly don't want to be there. Have not met a Venturer yet whose parents made him/her join." Yep, no adult (including SM) says who is in what patrol. The older patrols have their activities focused on their interests and the younger boys plan their activities. We call it the patrol-method and it works just fine. By the way, my newest Eagle Scout has requested to be the new scout patrol's TG. Not everyone is focused only on one's self interests. "5. At MOOTs, Quests, etc., we give adults something to do - usually training. It can be anything really - "Survival tootbrush - Fraser fir or Balsam fir?" add free coffee and a patch and you can keep them busy for hours. Meanwhile we are COPE, rock climbing, or shotgun shooting." Yeah, I hear ya. It's a full time job as adults in our troop to make sure the boys don't hang out at the campsite and miss out on all that fun. Adult contingent at summer camp last week: SM - Cub, Webelos, Boy Scout Venturing and WB trained - 20 years scout leadership, 40 years youth group leadership. Has taught U of Scouting, SM fundamentals, and Webelos outdoor training. ASM - Eagle with palms - 7 years SM experience, WB this summer. ASM - Eagle just turned 18, SM training this spring, WB this summer. Not much the leaders need to learn, but I did spend the week learning about any and all wild flowers I found around the camp (Learned about 30 new ones) and the three adults were the only ones to see the International Space Station fly over while working on constellation identification. Adults can have just as much fun as the boys and in many cases, actually have more fun than the boys. "4. Easier on adults who want to help, i.e., it is far easier to become a Venture consultant than a Boy Scout merit badge counselor." Not if you know what your doing.... It is obvious that anyone making that statement doesn't know much about the training and qualifications necessary for a successful program. If one thinks that all they need is an adult lacky that will let the crew run wild, then yes, that statement will hold up everywhere except in court. "3. We can shoot pistols." Yep, that'll get the kids knocking down the doors to sign up. Of course, that's a biased sarcastic remark, but may hold up if one has an inner-city troop where a walking stick and buck knife might not be sufficient gear to hike with. "2. No more little kids." Spoken like a person who knows little or nothing about true leadership. Only a ego-centric personality will ignore the fact that the age difference between 11 and 18 (troop) is somehow not the same as 14 and 21 (crew). "and number 1 1. Girls " One will find that this isn't as big of a deal than what adults think. Not many guys want gals to compete on a level playing field with them. And if one has girls in the group who have more attraction ideas than the crew's interest specialty, one is just begging for a major headache along the way. I have had been involved with co-ed groups for over 40 years now. It's not that big of a deal as what adults have been lead to believe. Boys are attracted to girls not because they need to be part of their group, but because they wish to date and Friday and Saturday (two scouting prime times) conflict with those opportunities. It's nothing more than adolescent prioritizing. Let's see: Get the car and take a girl for pizza and the movies OR go hang out camping with the guys that I see everyday at school. If you take more than .5 seconds to decide that one, you obviously never were a male teenager. So, as far as convincing the stubborn scoutmaster? Don't bother. Just go off and start your own crew. The fallacy of one's whole premise of having the SM involved means that some miraculous transformation will occur in the mind of the SM when he puts on a dark green shirt. Well guess again. All he'll do is run the crew like he does the troop. You will be disappointed and everyone will quit for the same reasons they want to quit the troop. And if one is planning on running a competitive crew, why would anyone think it remotely possible to get his blessing? I'm thinking one hasn't thought this through very well. I'm thinking the SM has enough been-there-done-that experience to see through hassles that are coming down the road in this situation. Stosh

Camp Freeland Leslie is where we went this summer and it is a patrol-method camp. They had all the equipment necessary for each patrol. I'm thinking that camps that don't have dining halls invest in patrol chuck boxes instead. Some of it was old and beat up, but it was all there and worked just fine. Stosh

If one is worried about the nutritional loss from canned goods over time, one can be rest-assured that 90% of all the nutritional value is take out of the food at canning time. Dried fruits, meats and vegetables have had their water removed, not their nutrition. Invest in a book that specializes in edible plants in your area and then spend a training time looking for them. It's all free if one finds the items that the boys may like. I just spent a week at summer camp and had fresh berries on my cereal every morning. The boys ate the pancakes and bacon and I snagged up all the cereal they didn't want and spent each morning collecting a couple of hands full of berries to the fare. Hmmmm, fresh berries and cereal with milk vs. pancakes, syrup and bacon/sausage. Nutritionally, I win. In case nobody realized it, there are a lot of free camping places in the area. I live on the Mississippi River and its tributaries and there are a lot more sandbars than there are campers. Works for me. Maybe we'll do a collecting wild rice weekend this fall. Or would it be better to just buy a box at the store? Stosh

Traditionally outdoorsmen carried a possibilities bag before there were a ton of pockets to fill up. This over-the-shoulder bag carried everything one could possibly need along the way. I don't have to worry about what I have in which pocket. Everything from firestarters to compass, to whistle, to books, to poncho, to pencil/paper, to knife, to pills, to food all get put in the bag and before I leave home, it gets grabbed up and taken along. The bag I use is a WWI bread bag and the size is just about right. BSA did at one time make a single strap bag for the boys, but they are rare to find. Most of the boys preferred the double strapped rucksack, (small book-bag size). I find that I can't get into the rucksack without taking it off, but the single strapped possibilities bag can be accessed on the march. Just swing it from around back to the front, open and grab. Man-purse? Yep, mens' clothing prior to the mid-1800's didn't have pockets and everything was carried in pouches and possibilities bags. The original pant pocket was nothing more than a coin pouch sewn into the seam so that it didn't bounce around and wasn't as obviously bulging with coins when hung from the belt on a string. Back pockets were added at a much later date. The inside breast coat pocket was the favorite choice for wallet, not the pants. Stosh

My boys are uniformed for travel, meals and flag ceremonies. At summer camp we were the only uniformed troop in camp. The rest of the troops were a mix and match of uniform parts and pajamas, blue jeans, and/or sweat pants, etc. They use the wrong salute, having justified their fuzzy logic to include any article of clothing with a BSA emblem on it qualifies for a scout salute of respect. At flag ceremonies, all non-BSA hats, water bottles, towels, books, etc. are all tossed behind the line of scouts and the PL "inspects" the boys to make sure they are properly prepared to participate. If the scout is missing any part of the uniform, they are asked to stand behind the line and salute as a civilian. In our troop there is no such thing as a "class b" uniform. The BSA does not provide one so it doesn't exist. There is a uniform, (aka, full-uniform, Class A uniform, Field uniform, or whatever other made up name one wishes to use). I have had my adult leaders "dressed down" for expecting a full uniform by other adult leaders. We just quietly reiterate BSA uniform policy and that usually ends the "discussion". The only piece of non-BSA equipment that our boys have adopted as part of their uniform is the 6' stave they carry. Like the hat and scarf, the boys felt it was an important piece of equipment to carry with them. Water bottles are required to be carried, but not during official acts such as flags, they only need to be "at-hand". These rules hold for the adult leaders as well. Because our code of conduct only has 3 "rules", -- 1) Safety first, 2) Look and act like a Scout, and 3) Have fun, it's no big deal to remember it's importance. Insurance? I don't know about that but when it comes to esprit-de-corp, it carries a lot of weight. Stosh

Gee, I guess my boys haven't heard about this, I had a boy practicing up last week to take over as a troop bugler. He's a French horn player now so it shouldn't be a problem with the instrument. He's just got to learn the music. Modern military no longer needs the bugler they have radios and PA systems. There's no need. However, unless the troop has invested heavily in walkie-talkies and have a portable PA system with them, it's going to be more feasible to have a bugler. The biggest problem with the POR Bugler is the low-tech approach to communications that the bugle offers in a high-tech world. A good bugler is more valuable to a troop of less than 3 patrols than an SPL and his assistant combined. If one doesn't agree with me on that, they have no idea what a bugler is supposed to be doing. Stosh

I'm packed and out the door for Camp Freeland Leslie in Central Wisconsin. Been looking forward to this day for a whole year. Stosh

The palm-back V sign was given to the French at that battle to let them know that each of the long bowmen had sufficient appendages to do them some real damage, i.e. those two fingers were necessary to shoot the bow. Kind of a fist up, slap your bicep kind of gesture. It was definitely not a derogatory as it may be today. It was an "in-your-face" gesture. As a kid I also remember that the Texas Aggie sign of first and little finger when reversed (palm back) was not something your mom and dad should see. Stosh

I have a masters/professional degree in business management and yet I have worked with volunteer groups for over the past 40 years (both adult and youth) as well and there is a big difference between leadership and management skills. Managers can "manage" either tasks (Theory X) or people (Theory Y). Leadership can only lead people. A good manager is able to translate the goals, expectations, and directives of the leader into reality. He is an excellent follower! A rare individual may be able to be both. A good manager with a bit of leadership can accomplish some great things. However, a great leader may be a terrible manager. He may inspire, motivate, excite, and challenge, but he may not know how to put that into reality without a manager or two giving him support. I'm thinking that the reason NYLT is so successful for some troops (and here's where I'm going to draw flack big time!!) is the fact that the leadership is coming from the adults and the youth are thus directed, coached, mentored, etc. into managing, (aka following directions). The good SPL is able to functionally get the boys to do the program given to him by BSA/adults and coordinate the boys (management of people) into accomplishing it (management of the tasks). They don't need leadership skills to do this. All they have to do is follow the taught processes of management (i.e. EDGE, for example) However, I don't see leadership in those terms and although I teach the management skills to my boys I also take them back to the original dynamics of BSA and teach them real leadership. That is quite a bit different and has no curriculum capable of being written to do that. Everyone has a slightly different leadership approach, a slightly different leadership style, and to teach an EDGE skill in that situation is trying to get everyone to be the same and that just isn't going to happen. As I mentioned on the forum before, I had one Eagle candidate really screw things up and I sat blocking his EBOR for 6 months. During that time I stripped him of his SPL position, and made him just another member of the patrol. He was then directed to prove his leadership or I would continue to block the EBOR. He only wanted to get his Eagle so he could quit the troop at age 16. Well, since then he learned to lead from the backseat. He figured it out, he struggled and he taught and he took care of the boys as he never did before (servant leadership). The boys looked to him as SPL even though he didn't wear the patch anymore. Basically he convinced everyone, including himself that he was indeed a leader. Well, he's had his ECOH and when he tearfully pinned his mentor pin on me, it got to me as well. He's my JASM (who is basically working as a functional TG!) and working on his palms while training the next SPL what leadership is all about. All of this had nothing to do with how well he was trained in management skills!!!! "There is nothing in the NYLT syllabus about management. There's developing a vision, goals, planning, problem solving, EDGE, conflict resolution. All put into practice with hands-on outdoor activites. No management." So what was his vision? He didn't have one, the SM basically took that away! His goals, getting his Eagle and the SM was blocking him? Survival in the troop and program was his challenge. Planning? Fish out of water, this gentleman didn't even have a Plan Z. Problem solving? Okay, he had to figure out how to lead from the backseat, lead by having others lead. EDGE? Not even in his vocabulary! Conflict resolution? How am I going to win back the troop and have the SM get out of my way and let me really lead. Nothing in NYLT would have been much use to this boy because he didn't need management skills, he needed heart, and the confidence and opportunity to find out how to use it for the betterment of others. The others followed him because they began to realize that for the first time this boy actually cared about them and not just himself and his Eagle. One can't always define the difference between leadership and management, but like the fire alarm, once you experience it, you know what it is. Stosh

Local option per CO's choice. We struggled with female leaders, then female Explorers/Venturers, and now we're addressing the rest of the program. It's just a matter of time. Scout camp? Co-ed weeks, female weeks, and male weeks. Everyone is happy. Camporees? Go with Kudu's 300' rule and there shouldn't be a problem. Maybe not mix the patrols due to the male/female chaperon issue. For those that really are concerned, maybe a 301' rule for the mixed troops. That's a US football field of separation. Most troops don't separate themselves that far. I'm thinking it's more political/emotional problems than it is practical ones. I've dealt with co-ed groups for 40 years and haven't had a problem (yet). I lay out high standards and no one has ever challenged them. I've had some great trips over the years with mixed groups. It's not as hard as people make it out to be. If a CO has a problem, they can work around it, i.e. all-male week at camp, etc. Stosh

Our troop does something very similar to what you do. Excellent program. Our only difference is that the flag is not unfolded when it is put in the fire. The scouts salute the flag as it is put, folded, in the fire and then hold the salute until the flag is no longer recognizable. The reason for this is that it takes quite some time for a cotton flag to burn and while holding the salute in silence it gives the boys an opportunity to think about what has just happened. A number of boys have commented that during the silence it is the most emotional part of the ceremony. For flags that were once placed on the coffins of veterans, it would be appropriate to actually re-read the obituary for the veteran for whom the flag honored. Yes, one is "destroying" the flag, but to take the time to reflect on what that particular flag did in it's "lifetime" is well worth the effort. Like you, we dig the grommets out and give them back to the person who once owned the flag. If the flag had once been on a loved one's coffin, it is the last remnant of that honor and the family may appreciate it. Nice post. Stosh

National Jamboree does not accommodate special dietary needs. Kosher and vegan, yes, but everyone else they can eat PBJ for the week. Unfortunately peants, strawberries (etc.), butter, and gluten are some of the worst allergens. Could they bring their own food? Nope, only Jambo food allowed. Yes, there are boys that wanted to attend National Jambo and couldn't because of dietary restrictions. Unfortunately it ultimately comes down to taking care of yourself, camps won't do it for or even with you in some circumstances. Stosh

Just a heads up on the military awards. It is a federal offense to wear a military honor one did not earn. Other organizations, there is no legal restrictions. Stosh

One of the real problems that is not being addressed in leadership training of today as it was in the past is: Management is only a small part of leadership. If that's all that's going to be taught, it could bode poorly for NYLT in the future. I have had only a few boys attend NYLT and all have found it "not very useful." I guess I'm not a big fan of that kind of money for such little results. One of the major "mistakes" one makes in teaching management skills as leadership skills is that in the managerial world, all the subordinates one works with are paid for being there and they are there because they want to get paid. Take that dynamic away and replace it with volunteers and the whole playing field changes. Well, the game changed and the training didn't. Going to be tough to work that one through if they are teaching everyone to play football and on the day of the big game the coach shows up with bats and gloves. Stosh

My troop does not attend our local council's camp because of too many problems concerning patrol-method vs. mess hall as just one issue. If this is a concern, as many have said go with a camp that does not have a mess hall and prepare food in your campsite. Refrigeration? All RV refrigerators are designed to run off of propane. Otherwise, we've done the cooler/ice for years. Yes, I have camped for 2 weeks in a camper that does not have a refrigerator only an ice-box. It works. Otherwise, have the boys do summer camp using self-prepared backpacking menus that don't require refrigeration. One won't even have to limit oneself to lightweight because you can haul in the food in your trailer. The camp we finally found and our boys fell in love with allows the boys to plan all their meals by patrol, box them up, i.e. Monday-Breakfast-Eagles, Monday-Lunch-Eagles, etc. That way when they come up to the commissary to pick up food, they are handed the box of food for the meal. This way refrigeration is not a problem because all the commissary food is kept at proper temperature anyway. With the ease of Internet searching, I'd start looking for a new camp next year and get one that has NO dining hall, NO kitchen, expects in site-cooking, and provides an option to bring your own food. It works, we found one, and we're heading there this Sunday! Stosh

Once they have earned rank and are supposed to know this stuff, you can't take away the rank. However, for high adventure in my troop the qualification for going relies on how functionally FC the boy is. Just because he has FC on his shirt doesn't mean he automatically goes on the trip. He doesn't get POR just because he wears the patch, and he doesn't automatically go to BWCA just because he's collected up the FC, and Swimming, First Aid and Canoeing MB's. He has to show proficiency in those areas before he is qualified to go. While being able to tie a double half-hitch may not be a life saving skill to maintain, proficiency in First Aid may make all the difference in the world. The reason these skills are taught is so that the boy can use them, not forget them. Do I retest? Yep. Do I take away rank? Nope. Do some of my boys miss out on certain outings? Yep. Stosh

Both articles went to everyone I know on Facebook. Thanks! Stosh

Eagle92, I'll try just about anything to get the boys wet. I've even considered the Chinese water thingy, heard about it, but will have to get the details. Stosh

What's with the clean freak stuff????? I went on a outing in wool uniforms and hot, hot weather. When we got back to the hotel at the end of the event, we drew straws as to who got to shower first. I "won". First in.... Yeah, right, when I came out I couldn't believe how bad the other guys smelled! The real winner was the last guy in the shower! So, the simple solution is: don't take a shower until after closing fire bowl! Seriously: Our rule is: either in the pool/lake or in the shower every day! Those that don't comply, are marched down to the lake and tossed in with the SM's blessing. If he's a non-swimmer, we tie a rope around his ankle so we can reel him back in. Stosh

I always tell my boys that FC is the minimum requirements necessary to take care of yourself in life. Now one can start thinking about taking care of someone else (i.e. leadership). Stosh

Have him read the Hillcourt material and then have him move towards BOY-LED! He's the SPL! It's his right to leave a legacy and one might as well leave the correct one! It's time to take seriously those words of the Law, arm oneself with B-P knowledge and go for it. At least he won't ever be accused of leaving with a whimper! I always tell my boys that when they leave the room everyone should notice. You may have left a good taste or a bad taste in their mouths, but at least while you were there, they had something real to chew on. Have him review the meanings of the words of the Law and focus on Obedient and Brave. My best to him! Stosh

An update: Last weekend the boy received his Eagle rank at the ECOH. He did a nice thank you presentation and called me up at the end to present me his mentor pin. (Yes, I'm the one that held him back for 6 months because he screwed up, and he did mention the SM was a bit zealous in his expectations at times.) He then thanked me for everything I had done to challenge him and help him grow in maturity and confidence and that he had changed his mind and would not be quitting but accepted my offer of JASM and will be continuing to work with the troop. Afterwards we had a little visit and he's got one more MB for his Bronze palm and he's making plans for the Silver and Gold as well. I'm thinking that somewhere along the way I may have done something right with this situation, it seems to be working out pretty well. Stosh

If you rent canoes from a local outfitter by that particular river they would be able to tell you how long the average time would be after you give them in and out locations. Even if you don't rent from them, most are glad to help you with that information. Some outfitters even have brochures with maps that give that information they would be glad to hand out/send to you. I'm sure the boys could do a little leg work on this and come up with some information. Stosh

The sad downside to this are all the boys that come to this conclusion, realize they're butting their heads against the wall, and 1) quickly get their Eagle and quit or 2) just quit. Stosh

Gee the only way to make the flat brimmed campaign hat dorkier is to flip the brim up in the front instead of curved down. Flipped up on the side might be cool. The two-toned color of the expedition hat comes from 15+ years of sunlight. I just like the look of the old paintings/photos of the boy's wearing the hat in slouched fashion. It looks relaxed and comfortable. The flat brim looks stiff and authoritarian. All hats of personalities just like the wearer. It says a lot about the person. Please just don't flip the brim up in front, okay? Can we agree on that much? Stosh