Stosh

Don't cha think it's kinda strange to have zero-tolerance rules at a school that goes to great lengths to promote diversity? What's the message our kids hear? Some of these schools do things the KKK, Neo-Nazis, and Black Panthers wouldn't even dare to try and pull off. Stosh

My council consists of 3 districts. At one point my Venturing Crew was in one district, my Boy Scout Troop was in another and I physically lived in the third. Now that I am no longer involved in Venturing, I'm down to two districts. I haven't lived in the same district as my Boy Scout Troop for the past 17 years. Where I live has had no impact on my BSA responsibilities and I would think that if asked to serve on the district committee, saying I don't live in the district would be sufficient justification to disqualify me. Stosh

People who don't bother to understand the situation inevitably call the wrong shots on it. We attended an out-of-council camp a number of years back and one patrol had adopted the BSA expedition hat for their uniform. The announcement before flags was to remove hats. The boys left it on. This was outside at the flag field. The second time, they made the same announcement more emphatically. The boys left them on. Finally the third day the staffer came over and stood in front of our troop and said, "This announcement applies to you!" When he was done, the SPL replied, "With all due respect, sir, just how much of the official uniform do you wish us to remove?" He then removed the hat to show him the BSA emblem on the inside of the hat and put it back on. The staffer apologized and the announcement was never made again. I have had adults make critical comments about our boys because when they are not in full uniform they do not use the Scout salute, but use the civilian salute of remove hat and put hand over heart instead. While that may be rather harsh, it is very rare that any of the boys in my troop show up without full uniform. As far as wearing the hat indoors, all one needs to do is look at the old photos and paintings and one soon realizes that although it may have been tradition for those in civilian attire, those in uniform left the hat on unless in a house of worship that requested it be removed out of courtesy. Some houses of worship expect you to keep your hat on to be courteous. Stosh

As an ordained minister, I was asked to do the "sermon" for the chapel service at camp last week. A lay-minister put together the order of service and asked me to review it. He was not "happy" with my suggestions in that I had him remove the Lord's Prayer and replace it with a Psalm. The prayer was one accredited to one used by American Indian tradition and the songs were pretty generic. Focusing in on the "old Testament" allowed the service to appeal to Islam, Judaism and Christianity. I preached in the 12th Scout Law as it applied to the tenants of all three religious bodies as they viewed Servant Leadership. I received appreciative comments afterward from both Muslim as well as Christian attendees. If there were any negative concerns they might have been addressed to the Camp Director, but I didn't hear anything. It just takes a little time to consider a number of traditions in the area, "knowing the audience", and being sensitive to a variety of different traditions. It's a pretty thin tightrope, but it can be done. Stosh

No grandfather clause in the "new revised and a lot better" WB program. Of course if one wishes to go through it all over again, they'd be happy to take your money. On the other hand, the one nice thing about this new approach is that they no longer ask me to teach any of the fundamental type programs, I don't get asked for U of Scouting, and of course I would never be considered for teaching WB. It did kind of surprise me they wanted me on the Jamboree contingent. Both youth SM's for the two council contingents are both products of my work in scouting. When all is said and done, I don't get asked to do any district or council leadership thingies, so it frees me up to spend all my scouting time and experience working directly with the kids, exactly where I want to be.... Maybe those old beads are good for something after all.... ! Stosh

Unit Leader Qualifications Scoutmaster Have served as a Scoutmaster for at least one year during the three-year period prior to July 1, 2010. Completed basic Scoutmaster training or Boy Scout Fast Start and Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training, No. 34879. Completion of Wood Badge for the 21st Century. Be able to serve as a role model of physical fitness. Have participated in the prejamboree training experience. Have filed a Jamboree Personal Health and Medical Record, Class 3, No. 67-34412, before the prejamboree training with the council jamboree committee. Complete the 60-minute Youth Protection Training. Be approved by the local council. Although not required, Scouters Key is a desirable qualification. Then there are those who have worthless beads. I meet every requirement listed above including the Scouter's Key but my beads are pre-21st. Century so I don't qualify. I have Cub, Webelos and Venturing training too. But my beads are useless. I'm working on a doctorate for U of Scouting, but my beads are useless. The council came to me and asked to to apply for the Jamboree contingent, but I couldn't be the SM because my beads are useless. I don't get asked to serve on WB staff because my beads are useless. It never used to be, but it no longer is just about the beads because some beads are useless. Obviously there must be something different about the new program so as to make the new beads better than the old ones, but I've never really taken the time to check this all out. I'm assuming the new 21st program is majorly a big deal in the changes or everyone wouldn't go to such great lengths to make sure everyone knows how much more important 21st beads are and how they are so much better than the old ones. I always stand in awe when I see these new beads.... Would someone tell me again how one can tell the difference? Maybe someone should paint them gold or something because they kinda look like the old ones. It must be my failing eyes or something. It sure is helpful with everyone telling me how much better the 21st's are because I wouldn't be able to tell on my own. Oh, did I mention that my beads aren't as good as the new ones? Stosh

I have always viewed camp services as an important but temporary measure while folks are away from home. There are a lot of people that think this way and that's okay for them, but I tend to think God goes with me wherever I go and that taking the time to recognize this is a good thing and the more it "feels like home" the nicer it is. I never want to feel that "someplace else" is not as good or a temporary fix as the "normal" place. As a matter of fact, when I look into the sky from my backyard I see a lot of stars, but when I stand in the meadow at Boy Scout camp, often times I see a ton more stars and even the hand of God. For a long time I thought my eyes had gone so bad over the years I would never again see the Milky Way. Duh, at camp away from the city lights, it's right there just as it always was. So, sometimes away is better than at home. Worship can be that way too. Stosh

Huh? My activity must of lapsed.... Stosh

For those who feel patrol method would hinder program consider these two camps. Camp A - Mess hall - 3 MB sessions Camp B - Patrol Cooking - 5 MB sessions Would my boys eat more meals with a mess hall? Yep, they chose to sleep in a couple of times - missed breakfast. Would they ever consider going to a mess hall camp? - nope! This year we tried things a little different and the adults did not eat with the boys. We did our own cooking and realized we enjoyed it as much as the boys did! Stosh

Duty to God seems to be taking a backseat in this discussion. I'm thinking that this Scout Law deserves a bit more attention than maintaining a warm spot in the pew for an hour once a week. Every major religion expects it's followers to contribute to the welfare of others in a variety of different ways. Monetary collections is one of these ways and it is always 100% voluntary, as is any expression of one's faith. If this lesson of faith is not taught and only valid for adults, then the religious law needs to be stricken from the BSA Scout Law. We wouldn't want our children exposed to such intense religion until they are old enough to handle it.... ????? And the purpose of the contribution is for the benefit of the giver, not receiver. If one worries about where the money is going and if it is really going to a good cause, then they are assuming those collecting the money are not trustworthy, another one of those tricky Scout Laws. It also indicates that the "donation" is a "donation with strings attached" and is not really a donation at all. Yes, there are some causes in everyone's minds that is more worthy than the next guy's. I preached at summer camp last week and could have felt it appropriate for an honorarium as is the custom in my religious tradition, but none was offered. So what? It's not a big deal and I was glad to do it. And anyway, I was staying free for the week in God's Country, so I was coming out ahead in the process. As an expression of my faith, I tossed in a few bucks when the hat was passed at our chapel service and thought nothing of it. It was something I needed to do as a way of responding to the faith system I adhere to. I have no idea what the money is going to be spent on, but I trust those who have it are putting it to good use. I'm thinking if one is going to look at this situation as a monetary transaction, then it's probably a bad business decision in some people's minds. But if one is going to look at this situation as an act of faith, then it's time to move on to more important issues. I prefer to view it as an act of faith. For those who wish to collect money for some other issue, maybe they can put a tip jar at the Trading Post instead. Or the staff could walk around the different campsites and pan-handle some support. That's always a good technique for raising money. At Philmont pocket Testaments are offered to anyone that wants them. Does anyone really think for a moment that these are produced free of charge? No, someone somewhere put up some money so that the Christian scouts that attend Philmont, who would like a pocket sized book to assist them in their "A Scout is Reveent" trek, to have one. I still have mine and although I own many bibles of different translations, there's always one that never gets taken out of my backpack to be read except in the woods. I wonder if the person who dropped a few $$'s in a plate/hat somewhere is even aware of whatever happened to it. If some scout somewhere keeps a small laminated prayer card with his summer camp picture on the back, tucked in his shirt, or maybe uses it as a book mark in his Bible, then the $20 some scout tossed in the hat got his money's worth out of the deal. And in case anyone is even remotely interested, the Philmont Testament in my pack replaced the small Testament I had received as a first year scout at summer camp back in the early 1960's. My advice? Toss in whatever you feel you need to toss and then forget it. Trust in the other scouters to do what's best, it's part of their honor in doing their duty to God as well. Stosh

Whatever happened to ASPL taking over when SPL wasn't able to attend? I'm thinking that with all the rules and regulations things have a tendency to bog down and fall apart. Okay, SPL goes out for cheerleading squad for the football team , and the ASPL takes over. Oops, the ASPL is busy too, so the senior most PL steps up. Or maybe TG can garner up some experience at that level, so he steps up to the plate. Sometimes we over-think or over-regulate some of these things and paint ourselves into corners. I just figure that if everyone in the troop goes out for football (and the cheerleading squad) that maybe the troop shuts down for a while. Otherwise if there's only a handful of boys left over because they are in orchestra instead of sports and band, then why is it so vital that there even BE an SPL and ASPL. Reorganize a bit, and let the boys do some fun things on their own until the other boys are done with sports/band. Think paper bag instead of iron box! "Hey, guys, there's only five of us left until the football season is over with, how's about we all rent some kayaks and head on out to the river? Anyone game? Pete, you want to take point on this? It'll give you a chance to try on the PL role for a few weeks to see if you like it. Fred, you want to try out Grubmaster?" (Yes, this sounds a lot like adult lead leadership, but remember, your leadership team isn't around and it's time to start back into training mode as a SM.) Too often rules and regs tell you want you can't do, it sometimes kinda crimps everyone's style. Stosh

My boys always prefer (unanimously) to go with the patrol method. They will not consider a camp with a mess hall as an option. Stosh

The suspected person is a master at deception. They have kept it from the police, from their parents, from school teachers, and many of their friends. Why would a SM think any kind of search is going to produce any results, and if it does what's next? Are you prepared to go to the police with what you found? Parents?, SE/DE? etc. Unless you plan on doing a drug-dog, and body cavity strip search, I'm thinking you're pretty much wasting your time. All this on an anonymous tip? I don't think so. An anonymous tip doesn't constitute probable cause. What kind of can of worms is being opened here if it's just one boy jerking the chain of another for fun? At best, I'd give the heads-up to the parents that I got an anonymous tip on their son and let them handle it. Stosh

If it was me and I suspected potential problems, I would head it off at the pass. Announce that before you leave a thorough inspection check will be held for everyone to make sure they have what they need and nothing more..... Stosh

If one has a lot of young boys, ANYTHING not related to an organized camp would be high adventure. If they camp on a "remote" island (any sandbar along the river where you can't see any buildings) will do. It could be a 5 minute paddle from the landing, but these kids don't care. Camping in the national forest 100' from the path/fire break is high adventure. Having to carry your gear a couple of miles before setting up is high adventure. Getting there by bike is high adventure. For a lot of these kids if they are out of cell phone range, it's out beyond civilization. Rigging up a sail and sailing the canoe across the lake and back is high adventure. Canoeing down any flowing river that turns is high adventure. The whole world is new to the new scouts, it doesn't take a whole lot to make any trip high adventure. Older boys are more challenging: Why not get the 1911 handbook and have the boys make tents and bed rolls and go out for the weekend using homemade equipment. The only thing that limits anyone is the extent of their imagination. I may have cooked hundreds of meals in my mess kit over the years, but the first time a new scout burns his first pancake in his mess kit, it's high adventure! Stosh

An old box fan, paper furnace filters and a couple of bungee cords and you can dehydrate food very inexpensively! Just remember, just because it's not a skill that is suggested by BSA literature doesn't mean you can't teach it to the boys. Stosh

I have stated this story previously on the forum, but every meeting night I go out for dinner because I'm always running late. Twice in the past couple of years someone has picked up my dinner tab. The first time I thought it was because my uniform looked military. I went over to explain to them that I wasn't military and the elderly man at the table said, yes, he knew that, he said you're a scoutmaster and that's just as important. The other couple that picked up the tab and also the tab of the person with me was a young couple with two small children, one in a high chair. I assumed the same thing as before and when I talked to them, they assured me they knew I was a scoutmaster and thanked me for all I did for the boys of the community. I always thought it was the older people in our society that appreciated what the scouts did, but I was corrected that evening. Stosh

You got it! Any scout that feels their "leader" is taking care of them, they'll follow him anywhere and do anything for him. Any scout that feels their "leader" is taking care of only themselves and their buddies, will find someone else to follow. This is why good TG's and DC's make such great leaders. Stosh

AvidSM, Using your example?.... "I'll use the example of the scouts assigned to clean up after their patrol's dinner. A Patrol leader uses mostly management skills to assign the task to a few of his patrol members, and lists their names on the duty roster. He reminds these boys that it is their job to clean up after dinner." He's there to babysit? He's taken away their opportunity to lead, instead he takes the time to remind them that they are following.... Unnecessary and somewhat condescending towards his patrol members. "Before his patrol left for the campout, he made sure his patrol box was not missing anything - wash tubs, soap, scrubbing pads, disinfectant, etc." That's what he has a Quartermaster for. Again, he's taken away an opportunity for his Quartermaster to step up and lead. Again, he is managing and keeping his patrol members under his control and away from leadership. "He watches over them to see if they actually do the job." Again, he's managing to convince the boys they can't be trusted with doing it and doing it right. Lovely adult technique to be passing on to the boys. I always love it when my boss hovers over my shoulder to make sure I do my job. I don't know why he just doesn't just cut to the chase and say "I don't trust you!" That'll make my day for sure and endear me to my boss. "He inspects their work afterward. Very little leadership skills required, in this example." I would say NO leadership skill is needed, but a good dosage of distrust, bullying, intimidation could easily be accounted for. "Now, lets use the same example, except one of the boys assigned to cleanup is sick in his tent and the patrol box is missing the cleaning tubs and there is no dish soap." Obviously the Quartermaster has not taken care of his buddies by providing any leadership and made sure the boys were ready with a properly outfitted chuck box. "Now that same patrol leader has to convince some other boy in his patrol to do cleanup." A manager would do that, a leader wouldn't. "He has to be a leader and somehow get someone else to do something for the good of the patrol and that is not their job. He may do this by asking a favor, using his charisma, pleading, promising something in return, etc." I'm thinking intimidation, coercion, threats and such would be much better than begging and pleading, bargaining and indicating to the patrol members they hold the upper hand. I'm not seeing any leadership yet. "Also, he has to improvise by finding some other containers to do cleanup in. He also has to talk to another patrol leader about using some of their dish soap, most likely in trade." Yeah, right. There is very little if no leadership in this process as well. Sorry, it doesn't work for me. Where's the QM in all of this? Nope, I'm seeing no leadership in the second example either. Okay, John is sick and he's responsible for cleaning up supper. PL realizes everyone in the patrol has been given duty sometime for cleanup and to add and change would be unfair to someone else on the roster. Okay, roll up the sleeves and get to work leading! PL: Hey, APL, give me a hand, we need to cover for John, he's sick. (Translated: Hey APL, come and join in the fun I'm going to lead in!) APL: okay, but there's no soap or wash bins. PL: Find the QM and get him over here. I'll get the water heating. (Translation: Take the lead on getting the QM, I'll take the lead on getting the task done.) APL: Okay. QM: What's up? PL: Need some dish soap and pans, do your magic and round some up. John's sick and we need to cover for him. QM: Got it covered. (Translation: I'll take the lead on solving the problem that I've created.) APL: I'll wash, you dry. (Translation: I'll take the lead on the chore.) PL: No problem... here comes the QM QM: The other patrol's QM had soap, dump some in a cup, I got to get the bottle back to him. He said we can use the pans, but need to get them back before the next meal. Sorry for the mixup. Anything I can do to help? (Translation: I screwed up, I fixed it, life goes on.) PL: No problem, we got it covered now. (Translation: All's forgiven, forget it.) QM: You check on John, see how he's doing. I'll wrestle with the APL for the dishrag. (Translation: You're the PL, get back to your duties, the APL and I'll cover this situation.) It's called teamwork and everyone looking out for the other guys to make things happen (Leadership). The only thing that was managed in this scenario was the problem they faced and it was managed as different people took ownership of it and resolved it. When confronted with a problem, everyone stepped up (Leadership) and took a share in it's resolution (Leadership). It's also known as taking the lead and all three of them took the lead and passed around the leadership opportunities amongst each other as they did so. It is for this reason I find it a lot easier to teach boys leadership than management. It is also the same reason my boys basically don't give me grief because of my leadership. Example: Summer camp last week... The latrine was a mess, it hadn't been cleaned since last summer. We were the first in the site this year. When the boys went off to MB classes on Monday a.m., the latrine was still a mess. SM (me) went in and swept it out, dragged out the fire ring that was stored there, put up the TP on top of the partitions, swept it out, including all the cobwebs, then took the hose and rinsed everything down. Was that the SM's job? Nope, but then one leads by example, (so we've all been told!) it's what leadership is all about. Did I take away someone's opportunity to lead? Yes, but because they had all day Sunday to do this and didn't, it was time for a lesson/demonstration in leadership. Well, from that point on all the rest of the week, that latrine stayed absolutely spotless. On the last day, just before we left I made one last visit to the latrine before heading out, it had been swept out and hosed down for the next troop. They had learned their lesson well. No one in the troop is so goodie two shoed that they can't take the toughest job and do it up right. The boys knew it was me who had cleaned out the latrine in the beginning (no one else was in camp at that time) and yet by setting the bar high, they stepped up and maintained the standard throughout the week without me ever having to say a word. As a matter of fact, I never did say anything about camp chores and when it came time to leave the site, the SM does one last walk through the site. Well even after having a raccoon raid the camp one night and the boys had garbage all over the place, when I walked through I found one black twist tie that needed to be picked up. I was impressed with their leadership and LNT attitude that I didn't have to even remind them, and I don't think I'll even have to checkup on them next time either. None of these boys are over the age of 14. When one expects miracles, sometimes they actually get one or two along the way. Leadership is an attitude, not a skill. Stosh

RememberSchiff, it just might be a difference in locations, but I don't seem to find any SM's who really find it necessary to start a Venturing Crew just to keep the older boys interested in Scouting. Around here Venturing tends to be those items of interest the boys might be involved in that are specific and simply wish more specialized opportunity for the boys. They don't tend to compete with the Boy Scout program. When I was working semi-professionally with a scout council, I formed about 50 new Exploring posts (Pre-Venturing) and only 1 or 2 of them wanted to be General Interest Posts which would compete with the Boy Scout program. The vast majority wanted to do Medical, Law Enforcement, SCUBA, Nature, Service, Legal, Aviation, etc. Those that chose to go the General Interest route either stayed small or collapsed after a couple of years. I guess I'm the stubborn scoutmaster that stlhiker is talking about because I really don't see a viable reason to having a venturing crew when one has a solid troop already running. I'm thinking that a good Venture Patrol would work just as well except for the handgun thingy. I'm not seeing that as a deal-breaker or convincing argument for a completely different program. Now if one wished to start a Handgun Venturing Crew, then go for it, I'm sure it would be nice for a few scouts. But being limited in scope, only a handful of really dedicated crew members would keep it going for any length of time. It would not in anyway compete with the SM and wouldn't need any stubborn scoutmaster's approval, input, assistance, to get it going. As far as answering stlhiker's concern, no, I don't know of any tips one might employ to convince the SM that getting a venturing crew going is a good idea and unless there be at least a convincing argument of sufficient weight, it just isn't going to happen any time soon, and if the SM is stubborn, then I'm thinking stlhiker may in fact be truly wasting his/her time on this issue. From the rather short request for information, stlhiker doesn't really specify why he even needs to get this SM on-board with the issue. Get a few adults together to form a committee, find a CO and 5 kids and go for it. That process sounds a lot easier than trying to convince a stubborn SM. Stosh

Buffalo, One year I had young boys go to local camp, 10 minute drive to camp. Remember that camps have to provide staff, equipment, program, etc. Each boy pays for those services. That same year I took the older boys to BWCA, 500 miles away, that they planned out on their own. The young boys paid more that year than the older boys even when the cost of gas and out of state fishing licenses were calculated in. The boys did not use any local outfitters, but did their own planning, budgeting, etc. and it truly paid off in the end. Stosh

I haven't done such a program with scouts, but I have known troops that have done their own summer camp. One troop came up from another state and did a Island Survival week on one of the islands in the Mississippi. They had a ton of problems because they were an adult led program that had too many chiefs and not enough Indians. If I remember correctly, they didn't last the whole week. The kids were having a blast, but the adults weren't and they were calling the shots. The only program I have ever run as such was with co-ed church groups of Boy Scout age. They all turned out pretty good with a lot of nature scavenger hunts, map/compass stuff, and outdoor cooking. The kids loved it. There is a camp from the W.D.Boyce council that has water only access, no staff, and a waiting list a mile long to get into it. Only so many troops per year are allowed to go. All they get is a campsite out in the middle of nowhere. Hey, if that's all they're looking for, I know of a ton of spots right in my neighborhood that fit that requirement. We've done the high adventure alternative to summer camp and that was well received by the older youth. It tended to be a little light on program and heavy on the fun. I would only counsel on the idea of whose definition of camp is going to be operational that week. Adults (self-defined adult led troop) or the boys (their expectations are far different). Summer camp? Okay. Canoeing MB, Fishing MB, Water/Soil Conservation MB, Swimming MB, Cooking MB are the only MB's offered. No more than 1/2 hr. paddle to safety. Dug latrine, water purification, packed in only. Special programs for LNT, Plant/Animal ID, Sailboats made from canoes, Fishing Derby, Iron Chef using the fish caught, local edible plants found, map/compass of the area, making gunpowder, (just tossed that in to see if you're paying attention), etc. Stosh

Yes... Wisconsin and Minnesota both have licensing requirements, but for a few $$'s the boys can learn the importance of edible grains. They might also be able to harvest cattails and arrowhead while they are out there waiting for 10:00 am. There's no restriction on those plants. Also the 16 year old limit might be something for the older boys to focus on. Keep it in mind I don't expect the boys to subsist for the weekend on this process, just to give them the idea that all their supplies don't need to come from a can. At the end of the day, a buffet of all the different foods could be cooked up and the boys could sample the different foods to see what they might like and/or not like. I wonder if the boys would be interested in making home-made dandelion wine. "High Adventure" Smrgsbord... Stosh

Hmmm, so it's the scout's fault that dishonest people will nail BSA insurance/assets because the boy's wearing a uniform while traveling? Sorry, but I'm not going to blame the scouts because of others' dishonesty. Stosh

Welcome to the forum! Our troop has no elections and no term limits. All positions are fulfilled by the boys themselves. If a boy wishes to be PL he simply rolls up his sleeves and does the job. If a second boy wishes to be PL he can either pitch in and work with the existing PL and work it out to transition when it is convenient for both, or the second PL can go out and recruit a second patrol. Another boy just this past week asked to borrow my bugle so he could learn to play and be the bugler. No problem. Another boy started doing the meal prayers, now has a prayer at every closing flag ceremony and has worked up devotions for the evenings of campouts. He's been doing this faithfully for 3 months now and asked if it would be okay to wear the chaplain aide patch. Yep. No problem. A boy lined up summer camp this year, worked out the equipment (QM), signed the boys up for MB's (Scribe), collected the funds (Scribe/Treasurer), etc. When it came time to put on paper who the troop SPL was, he asked whose name should be put in there, I told him to put his name in there because he was doing all the work anyway. He functioned as SPL of a single patrol troop and the regular PL stepped back to APL and let the boy do the PL/SPL for the week. Another boy came and said he needed a POR for advancement. The boy who is the chaplain aide sat down with him and basically did a TLT session with him explaining all the POR's, their duties, and answered any questions he might have on the subject. By the way, the CA is a second year scout who's Star rank and the boy seeking POR is a third year scout who needs POR for Star. Every boy in the troop has the same opportunities as the next. It is based on whether or not he is going to step up to the plate and play ball or sit around for 6 months, collect the reward just because his buddies voted him the patch. I have another scout who fancies himself as a "leader". However, he does nothing but cause trouble. He "volunteered" to be the OA Rep, but has never attended a single OA district meeting, did not line up elections last year, didn't remind any OA member of any OA event going on, etc. All of these things he was told will be part of the SM conference/evaluation when it comes time for rank advancement, and unless I begin to see some functional leadership developing, he's going to have a tough time justifying completion of the POR requirement. Another boy wants to be instructor, but over the past year has not been able to produce one teaching opportunity for anyone. Yet, he's the first to admit that he has done nothing to justify wearing a patch or getting POR credit. The opportunity to change remains open for him when he's ready for it. Leadership is based on what one does, not what they are or whether or not their buddies vote them into a position. I guess our boys feel that elections really aren't really an honest way to deal with leadership in the troop. Right now I have two boys vying for top leadership in the troop/patrol. My second oldest scout (Star) who did the summer camp logistics (QM and SPL/PL/Scribe) and my second youngest scout (Star) who is function as chaplain aide and instructor. Neither of which I would have placed money on as a bettin' man, but who have stepped up to the opportunity and are doing quite well. Stosh