Stosh

Sorry, Barry, I stand corrected. I'm not always johnny-on-the-spot when trying to quote and interpret what others are trying to say. We do vary a bit on this in that 100% of my time goes towards working for the boys and 100% of my CC's time goes towards working for the parents. Thanks for the clarification. Stosh

Pre-fab kits are a joke. Take a plastic waterproof box down to your local ambulance station and tell them what you are going to be doing and let them tell you what to put it in. They may even put stuff in there for you. Invite them to come in an teach the boys about their personal first aid kits. Remember, there is a big difference between a first aid kit and an emergency first aid kit. You don't need splints for a first aid kit. Duct tape works great no matter how much doctor in the ER frowns. Been there done that and it was tough winkies if he didn't like it, it worked and the EMT's left it on because it was doing it's job. Bandaids belong in a personal first aid kit, not the PATROL emergency first aid kit. If you only need a bandaid it isn't an emergency. There is nothing useful about a troop emergency first aid kit. Every patrol needs a patrol emergency first aid kit. I'm not going to wait for a boy to run 600' to retrieve an emergency kit. Think first aid with personal first aid kits. This should cover the blisters, the cuts, the bruises, the poison-ivy, etc. Duct tape, bandaids, moleskin, etc. is what goes in here. Small items that will fit in a pocket-size box. Emergency first aid kit is for the scout that sticks his pocket knife in his thigh, breaks an arm, burns his hands on a hot pan, etc. Here's where you need the heavy-duty pressure bandages, duct tape for splints, gauze for burns, etc. Calico Penn: Stay away from the Ace bandages. Use gauze instead!!!!!! Ace bandages if put on to tight will actually do more damage than what you can imagine. Using gauze allows you to put the right amount of tension on the wrap. It's a lot harder to judge with an Ace because of it's elasticity. You might think you're putting a pressure bandage on, but it could end up a tourniquet. Just having the equipment is not enough. Learn how to use it!!!! For 15 years I was a Nationally Certified EMT-A and what I carried in my car was not what most people think of as a first aid kit. I was in a small town and one person went for the ambulance and the other two headed for the scene. It cut down a lot on our response time. I never knew what I was getting into when I walked on to the scene and as a general rule of thumb, a bandaid, or aspirin wasn't what the person needed. The next time you look in your patrol kit can you honestly say it is adequate to handle broken bones, massive bleeding or major burns? If not get it down to your local ambulance and get educated. Stosh

I don't see a whole lot of difference between a porta-john and a pit toilet. Okay, so you have to dig a hole for one.... If this be a Cub Scout issue, then when the boys invite the Webelos II for a winter camp outing at the COUNCIL CAMP, the scouts walk 20' to the latrine and the Webelos boys have to walk 1/2+ mile to the flush toilets. That makes sense.... somewhat. When I was working on my WB Ticket, I took a group of Webelos II boys out for a "primitive back country canoe outing." Sounds better than reality. We paddled out 30 minutes to an island and camped for the weekend. Every boy had his dad in tow. The best part of the whole outing for 3 of the boys was digging and lashing together the latrine. They did a right fine job. The lashings held and no one fell in which was nice too. The statute of limitations as expired on this trip. Stosh

SR540Beaver: Maybe I'm like most other troops on the forum, but somehow I end up sticking out like a sore thumb around my corner of the woods. But after listening carefully to others I see many small but significant differences. Barry feels he works for the parents as he stated in his post. I never think that way, I work for the boys, after all it's their program. I spend very few precious moments worrying about the parents and what they think. Parents are allowed to come along, but discouraged every step of the way. I haven't had a parent other than a new scout show up for an activity during the three years I have been with my new troop. Once they figure out what is being done in the troop, they get hands-off right away. We would never have 13 adults and 14 boys on any trip (no matter what you called it), or even at a troop meeting. Every time I've had too much parent involvement in a boy-led troop, I've eventually lost the boy. Controlling parents just can't seem to let the boy mature and grow with his buddies. I don't want my boys bonding with their dads on my nickel, I want them bonding with their patrol buddies. If dad wants bonding, he can play catch with the boy after he gets back from camp. My CC handles all adult/parent relationship issues. SM works with the boys, CC works with the parents. We try hard to keep everything separated. There's a standing rule between the CC and SM... if someone doesn't like the way the troop is running, they are encouraged to get trained and take over. The only exception to this whole process is when we do our local hometown festival. We handle the corn station at a Cornfest because our CO sponsors it. We have all the boys, their friends, their parents, their brothers and sisters, their neighbors, etc. to come and shuck corn. It's a blast and everyone has a big party doing it. Other than that I wave to the parents when they pick up and drop off their boys for an activity/meeting. As a matter of fact, the more I think about it, if 13 adults want to take 14 boys on an outing, I'm going to grab my kayak, a couple of friends, find some water in a different direction and have a welcomed weekend to myself. Oh, wait, the boys planned an outing this week starting on Wednesday and running through tomorrow. I had to work, so tonight I'm heading out for a two day paddle with friends. At Monday's troop meeting we'll compare notes to see who had more fun. Stosh

Looks kinda pricy ($50/troop, $30/girl), traditional values, open program, ages K-12 can all be in one troop. No insurance available unless sponsored by a non-profit organization that will cover you. I did like the idea that one of the badges was for chocolate. That alone would get me to join. Stosh

SSScout: LOL~! It's been replaced with orange flavored Gaterade. Stosh

My former troop purchased 4 man tents but only allow 2 boys per tent. The only time we break with this is when we are canoeing and/or backpacking. Then we will push 3-4 boys per tent, we have the room. The larger tents are more problematic for backpacking, but one boy takes poles, one fly, one tent and one groundcloth. It works out just fine. They are very cramped during these outings. Just because it says 4 to a tent, they had better be small people. While at Jamboree, we as adults discussed the durability of tents and most of them said 4-6 years was about all most tents could endure. The Eureka TimberLites my former troop used were still in great shape after 20 years. Eureka no longer makes that style of tent and so when we added to them a few years back we used Kelty Gunnison 4 tents. When it came time to pack up at the end of Jamboree I found out why their tents were not lasting very long. They folded and rolled all the tents up before putting in the STUFF sack. I have a Kelty that is over 20 years old and it looks brand new. I take it out 8-10 times a summer. I STUFF it into the STUFF sack. By doing this the tent nylon folds in different places each time it is stored. The adult leaders were pressuring my boys to pack up and they had to drag the tents back out of the stuff sacks and "do it right!" Lay the tent out, fold in half and then half again, then put the poles on one end and roll up! It's simple and yet it is a 100% guarantee way of making that floor tent leak within 3-4 years. As far as a good quality tent? Take any tent, no matter how good of quality it may be and without proper instruction boys can wreck them in a heartbeat. Take care of them and a poor quality one will last for many years. 1) Always use a ground cloth. 2) No shoes in tent. 3) No packs/backpacks in tent. 4) No food in tents. 5) No walking between tents. 6) UNZIP THE ZIPPER ALL THE WAY before going in or out!!!!!!!! 7) Never fold, always stuff. 8) Make sure it is dry before storage. 9) Seam seal when brand new and then again every other year 10) NEVER EVER tell your boys to treat these tents as if they own them themselves, tell them to treat them as if the SM owns them! * if one uses a cot in a tent be sure to protect the floor from the legs. What I do is put "shoes" on the cot legs. My hiking boots, camp shoes and shower thongs all do nicely on each of the 6 legs. Otherwise a folded t-shirt will work too. When I car camp I have a braided rug that works for this as well. Stosh

I understand that some parents are cautious, some overly cautious and some down-right paranoid. To some degree every mother bear will protect their cub, but they will also do everything they can to insure that cub matures and is capable of survival. The baby birds are fed by their parents, but soon they are going to get kicked out of the nest and if one hasn't learned to fly, they have to figure it out before hitting the ground. I don't have a problem with parents being at events to observe and learn. Interfering is a whole different subject. I have a policy of any parent that wants to go along may do so but they do so as an observer only. About 90% of the parents don't take me up on that. The boys struggle and fail, then struggle and eventually figure it out. New parents often sat with me at troop meetings and I explained what they were doing/trying to do, and that satisfies most of them. Even the parents that drive boys to events when needed seldom stick around for the actual event. Our summer camp is only an hour and a half drive and parents have no problem driving them up just to turn around and go home, returning on Friday. I had one overly protective dad at his boy's first camporee. We were sitting in the adult area chatting when I noticed he was watching his boy rather closely out of the corner of his eye. Their patrol was struggling with starting their cook fire. As he stood up, I asked him where he was going. He fessed up and said he saw "the boys" struggling. I said either sit down or go home. He was kinda shocked. But standing there he finally smiled and said, you need your cup refilled? They got it figured out and had breakfast just fine on their own. One of the biggest problems I have are the well-meaning parents. They aren't paranoid, they aren't hovering, they are willing to let their boys risk a bit, but it's tough for any parent to see their children struggling. After all, I promote a servant leadership style which means some of my best natural leaders come from servant leadership parents. That's a difficult process for the servant parent to pass on to their children. Stosh

When you have doubts about the situation, it's your common sense giving you the heads up! Cancel and don't regret it. Your only other alternative is to ignore your gut feeling and if something goes wrong then you'll get to regret it for a long time. Stosh

No one is going to turn down a free ride. Like the hitchhiker, they pay nothing for gas, nothing for insurance, nothing for upkeep on a vehicle, yet get just as far down the road as the person driving. Laying out expectations is important. None of our boys pays one penny for registration or re-registration. However, our CO (American Legion) expects us to march in the Memorial Day Parade and help with the hometown festival they sponsor. It works just fine for us. The CO is not even upset if a boy is out of town on vacation when the hometown festival is going on. They pay his way anyway. That's their choice! On the other hand if the boy doesn't raise money for trips, outings, and equipment, then it comes out of the pocket of the parent. That is between the parent and their scout. That's their choice! Fundraisers are all spelled out in the beginning. A certain % goes to pay for the product/event, a certain % goes to the troop, and a certain % goes to the boys' individual account that can only be used to pay for high adventure or summer camp. This money is not used for annual registration, camporees or weekend outings. The boys are encouraged to have a personal bank account and supplement the cost of activities from that. That's their choice! Money collected for troop use is to be used for troop activities, not sponsor individual freeloading. A Scout is Thrifty: he pays his own way! Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

By the time I reached Boy Scout age, I was already a skilled woodsman. I had carried a pocket knife for two years before becoming old enough to earn my Totin' Chip. I had built more campfires before scouting than I did in scouting. This weekend I'm packing up my kayak and heading out for a two day run on the river. PoraPottie? Heck no! I have dug more latrines than any scout of today. When I went to camporees as a scout, digging the latrine was one of the camp setup chores we always had to do. Having an outhouse at summer camp was a treat. Every time I hear a SM yell at a boy for not unzipping his tent far enough, I think back to my SM. He never had to yell at us for that, none of the tents had zippers. I was way beyond scout age before I bought my first tent with a screen door and zipper! One of the reasons why many of these skills are now obsolete is because we camp at developed campsites, cooked pre-processed meals, set up modern tents and flies and eat off of picnic tables. Philmont and BWCA even have developed sites. In the past 3 months how many registered scouters have put down a wool blanket on the ground, laid down on it, covered themselves with another wool blanket and got their 8 hours of zzzz's in? It's getting tougher now that I'm 60 years old, but I can still survive in the woods like I did 50 years ago. Woodcraft/Scoutcraft are still important skills. To think that one can promote an effective program without them is to assume that all scouting activities involve flush toilets and picnic tables. That really limits the adventure possibilities along the way. Does real adventure involve a backpack stove instead of a two-burner camp stove? or does it involve tinder, kindling, and maybe a match or two or for the really adventurous, flint/steel, magnesium, or a couple of sticks one whittles? I cheat, I use a magnifying glass on sunny days. Anyone still know how to make charcloth? The more woodcraft/scoutcraft a person knows, the greater the adventure they can plan for. I just hate to think that Scouting adventures will be limited by the lack of those skills. When I was SM of the old SM Fundamental course, I was always amazed by the number of future SM's I was teaching that had stopped by Wal-Mart to buy a tent and sleeping bag for the training weekend. I often wonder how much adventure the boys these SM's had ever had a real adventure in the woods. Stosh

I got my beads, woggle and scarf in the mail one day. I wore them at the next troop meeting. I occasionally wear the scarf, most of the time I just wear the beads, but the training is what I was after, not the recognition. I guess the biggest plus for the beads is they are there as a constant reminder to me as to why I'm doing what I'm doing. If I ever lost my beads, I don't think I would be all that upset and probably wouldn't bother to replace them. Who knows! After wearing them for 20 years, it's just kinda part of the uniform, kinda like the epaulets. Stosh

I think BP would have preferred tea! No grinding, no French press, no percolators, heat up water, toss in tea and enjoy. For the backpacker, put a bag or two in your water bottle and you can brew without hot water on the march. Toss the bag in a hot fire and there's no clean up at all. Calico would like that. Stosh

Parental paranoia is not a good process in today's society. The parent worries about who the supervising adult is. Then they worry about when their child isn't supervised. They worry about their child's self-esteem and confidence, and they get involved with sabotaging it by interfering in their development. Every tree has some predatory adult waiting behind it, and the further into the woods you go, the more opportunity for their sons to become victims. Stifle their development and these boys will never grow up, be savvy about the world and prepare them for the possibility of dangers down the road. When they're 35 years old, still cowering at home with their parents, then maybe they'll realize the mistake. Until then, these kids don't have a chance. Scouting is their chance. Stosh

"Of course the most thrifty way of all is to cut the orange in to wedges, pop a wedge between the teeth with the peel outside the lips, and bite and suck - juice with pulp - no squeezing - no glass to clean." - Calico Penn I love the example and it only shows how un-Thrifty we adults can be. All you have to do is put the coffee beans in your mouth, chew a bit to grind them up, knock off a couple of gulps of water from your water bottle and you'll have all the a.m. caffeine you'll need for the whole day! No perking - no cup to clean! Love it. And for all you skeptics out there who think this is outlandish, try some chocolate covered coffee beans sometime! Stosh

"Back when I was a kid..." (don'tcha just love it when the old farts start out that way!) I would be out of the house as soon as chores were done and if I wanted supper I had better be back home by dinner time. We had a group of guys and bikes that did everything from swimming, to camping, to building forts, to fishing, to sledding, to skiing, to ice skating, to.... etc. etc. etc. My mother only worried when it got dark. After all I was only 11-12 at the time. Once we got wheels (16 yrs. old) it was camping and road trips from Sat am to Sun pm. My parents loved to camp and went just about every weekend. I did too, but not always with them. Today's youth has to be carpooled everywhere he goes and chaperoned to death any other time. Just because you let your 14 year old child out of your sight for 5 minutes does not mean that they are going to turn into a career criminal. A Scout is Trustworthy, give him a chance to prove it! Stosh

Okay, all this discussion begs the question: Do you use a hand juicer or just squeeze the oranges for OJ in the morning? Stosh

Is it an ego boost to wear a fully patched shirt for a COH and a minimally patched shirt for all other activities? Those service numbers dig in when bumped, same for the nametag. Scouter key medals are the same.... List goes on especially for the devices one needs to put on the knots when serving in two different programs. The dress uniform looks kinda impressive, but the field uniform without the pins etc. is far more practical in the field. By the way the "dress" uniform and "field" uniform are distinguished only by the number of pins and patches, it's the same tan shirt. In the long run, I really don't worry too much about how many patches and gadgets a uniform has as long as it's a full uniform and not a Christmas tree shirt and blue jeans. Stosh

2 adults except for patrol outings where, with SM permission a patrol can go on a "scout outing" without any adults. I instruct my boys that Eagle is not the "goal" of Scouting, patrol outings without adults IS! Do I maintain a "lifeline" for the boys? Depends on the boys. If my JASM wishes to accompany a patrol of boys, I don't see a problem. If a patrol of all 16-17 year olds wish to go on a hike with overnight camping in the area and carry a cell for emergencies. Depending on the boys, no problem. If a group of mature 14-15 year olds wish to do a day hike into the back country. Go for it. I'll sit home and pout because I didn't get invited! Stosh

13 adults and 14 boys?????? Why not just have an outing for parents and leave the boys home. There's something seriously wrong with 13 adults going on an activity. It sounds like a tiger cub outing with that many adults. This is BOY scouts. RickK might be new to the forum, but he saw through that pretty quickly. And by the way, no adults eat with the patrols. I'm not walking 300' for any meal. Adults make their own and stay out of the patrol's business. Stosh

My suggestion: Each patrol have 6-8 members depending on the boy's choices. Let them work it out to those numbers. If they want 7 - 7, fine, if 6-8, that's fine too. After 3 years of SM at my present SM position I have never had more than 3 adults along with as many as two patrols. Normally we have only two adults at any event. This weekend the boys are going out with an ASM and his wife on a backpacking outing. The only time I had three it was a SM, an ASM and an extra adult skilled in canoe/kayak safety on a whitewater outing. Stosh

Holy cow, guys, with the effort everyone seems to be putting into their coffee, why not just hike over to StarBucks! A pocket full of beans and a tin cup and you can make coffee! Stosh

The one thing about the presses is that it is just one more thing to tote along. I have made coffee in the boiler of my mess kit as well as making it camp style with grounds in an individual metal cup (be careful not to burn your lips!!!!!) I got desperate once and made coffee in a fry pan. The only problem was with the pouring. The top layer of grounds was not that far from the bottom layer. But with a bandanna over the cup, I could just pour away and not worry about it. Once one gets good at pouring, I bet I can pour less grounds than one gets with a french press because 95% of the grounds are stuck in the egg. It's the egg that clarifies and holds grounds. It also reduces the bitter oils a ton. The ladies of North Dakota made the blackest Norwegian coffee I had ever seen in my life but it never had a hint of bitter in it ever! And so what if you don't have eggs and are backpacking? Go to the fabric store, buy cheap cotton material, $1/yard or less. Any color, just 100% cotton. Cut into small squares, fold, sew two sides, fill with pre-measured coffee grounds, sew last edge. Doesn't need to be pretty, just sealed. Toss in a small plastic container to stay fresh, and head on out. Boil water, toss a packet in your cup, pour in hot water, let steep for a while, pull out the bag and drink your coffee. For those that need it, you can also include your creamer and sugar in the packet..... OMG! One does not need the guts of the "cowboy" pot, That's the first thing that gets thrown away, even before the first grounds. Mine always get bent and dented when it hits the bottom of the trash can! If you wish to backpack your coffee, I would assume that if you filled your nalgene bottle with water, tossed in a packet, screwed on the top, within a quarter mile down the trail you'd have hot coffee. I've never tried it, but I don't see why it wouldn't work. For those that really enjoy their coffee fresh ground/fresh brewed, carry the beans, grind them up with the handle of your camp knife in the coffee cup then proceed as if you're doing regular camp coffee. It takes a while to grind them, but it's worth the wait. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

There is a combination of instant and grounds in the packets. I would suggest just doing it the old fashioned way. Works just fine, makes great coffee and is a lot cheaper. The farm wives of North Dakota taught me how to make great coffee, nothing can beat it Buy a small campfire coffee pot. Toss away the innards (aluminum perk basket and tube). Fill with cold water. Toss in coffee grounds. Crush a whole egg and drop into the pot, shell and all. Do a quick stir for a few seconds. Put on fire, wait for it to boil, let boil for about 3-5 minutes, depending on your level of darkness/taste. Pour slowly. If you're worried about a few grains of coffee grounds, put a filter over your cup as you pour. The reason you pour slowly is some grounds float and get caught in the egg and some sink and if you pour slowly the grounds will stay in the pot. Clean up? Toss out dregs from the pot, egg should come out in one lump. Rinse, fill with cold water..... You'll never go back to regular coffee again. Stosh

Pick whatever the boys want. The yell is irrelevant, it's like bugling. The meaning for the yell has been lost, we use it only at camporee competitions to help with padding the score and for the most part, no one knows what the yell is and why it was at one time important to know. Have a blank white patrol flag, call yourself the generic patrol, get the blank patrol emblems and use "Rah" for your yell. It covers all the bases. Stosh