Stosh

A lot of times young adults do not get mistaken because of how mature they act. Fortunately for me at age 60 my physical appearance has finally taken precedent over my maturity. It's taken a while, but I'm finally there. All in all, I have found that treating scouts as if they are adults, addressing them by Mr. A____, for example, does reduce a lot of the problems in the patrols. Giving them adult expectations also goes a long way as well. I did notice that at the Roundtable last night that myself, my 18 year old ASM and two of my boys (one there for OA the other is taking lead on the Popcorn promotion this year) were all sitting together at the table while the DE passed out the Popcorn packets. He came up to our table and seeing the troop number on the two boys and knowing we have been pushing boy-led for 3 years now, looked at the two boys and asked which of the two of them was going to be doing the Popcorn sales. The one boy said he was and the packet was handed to him. Nothing was said throughout the evening by anyone as to why two scouts were at the Popcorn Kick-Off Roundtable. The other boy stirred the waters a bit when he asked where the OA boys were and OA advisor weren't there at the Roundtable. On the other hand, my 18 year old ASM was told that now that he's 18 and an ASM he can call me by my first name. He smiled and said, "No, I can't." And BTW, no one calls me Stosh. Stosh

I'm thinking upright might mean vertical, like on a wall with the grommets on the top. But even then the union should be on the flag's right, viewer's left. The exception to this would be when displayed over a street where the union is to the north or east depending on which way the street runs. This rule is used because the flag is viewed from both directions. If the flag is displayed in a window, the person placing the flag should consider the direction the flag is facing. Is it "facing out the window" then the flag when viewed from the room have the union on the right. If it is "facing into the room", then it should not be used as window dressing and displayed properly on an open wall. Then there's all the people out there who feel it proper to fly the flags on mounts on car windows. Proper flag etiquette says that the flag should be displayed on the right front corner of the vehicle or on center hood, not from any window mounts. So, when all the dust settles, one might wish to consider: if someone wishes to show their patriotism by displaying the flag and hasn't a clue on how to do it properly, display it in a way that at least demonstrates that patriotism and they will at least be close! I drove by a house that had their flag hanging from the eaves of their front porch, vertically. The union was to the right, in other words, backwards according to the US Flag Code. I stopped by, rang their doorbell and explained it to them. Then the two of us switched it around and they thanked me for getting them straight on it because they heard the blue had to be to the right and they only knew that part and not the part where it says to the flag's right. To this day the flag still flies there and it's always been correct. The "upright" part is really kinda no other way, because it is totally inappropriate to display the flag horizontally. These people who find it a good idea to drag a huge flag out over a football field are totally in non-compliance to the US Flag code and they might as well lay it on the ground if they're going to be doing that. If the flag is going to be displayed at my house, it's on a pole flying free. After all, it's a symbol of freedom, why not let it symbolize it's meaning by flying free. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

Lesson learned, and a costly one at that. Always get the money up-front, no exceptions. If the money is not in hand, their son does not go. This leaves full responsibility on the parent. They can then explain to their kid why he isn't in the car on the way to camp. I learned my lesson a long time ago and it only cost me $100. Must be inflation that has that number up to $150! Everyone either gets a heads up on this, or they pay the price, but we've all gone through it. My former troop had a boy go to Philmont without paying the full amount, only partial. The SM took the mother to Small Claims Court and she didn't show up. The SM had a warrant issued for her arrest for contempt of court. Judge granted it and she was served. He got his money on the spot. Stosh

As a WDL, what could I offer the Tiger DL? or the Wolf or Bear DL? I was there for the Pack meetings, my boys did their part, and that was that. Please don't confuse appropriate DL training and DL social interaction/communication as equals. If there are Tiger DL's out there who haven't a clue what's going on, get them training! The CM should be driving this point every step of the way! The Webelos DL is not responsible for training the Tiger DL. If a Pack falls apart because of untrained DL's and ineffective CM/ACM's, that's a far different story than if a trained DL who's running his/her den effectively doesn't show up for a communications meeting when he/she has all the information readily at hand. If the CM is communicating effectively and doing their job, the DL's are running their dens appropriately, extra meetings are pretty much a waste of time. Stosh

My most recent Eagle scout, turned 18 in January (got his paperwork in on the day before his birthday). He immediately took an ASM position with the troop. Has taken all the adult training and today is starting his Wood Badge training. He's now starting his senior year of high school. On the scout meeting following his birthday, I commented during the announcements following flags that Andy should now be referred to as Mr. Blank (not real names). With a couple of slips here and there, the boys have taken that suggestion, but because of his age, sometimes call him "Mr. B". In our troop this transition doesn't seem to be an issue, but when the young man is elsewhere at scout activities he is often misidentified as a scout even though he wears the Eagle knot and ASM patch. He was told last night by a veteran scout that he couldn't be involved in OA as a youth officer, when in fact he could. At Jambo he had to constantly show his credentials as an adult because he is an avid patch trader. As well meaning as one might be, a quick glance at the uniform should immediately convey what position in scouting a person is. I have never seen this young man at any scout event without up-to-date full uniform on at all times. I can see why young people at this age get kinda peeved after a while. Just remember, a scout and scouter may in fact have birthdays only a week apart. If trained bartenders can't tell ages in young people, they have to ask for proof. It might be a good policy to do the same in Scouting. At least in Scouting, the "proof" should be indicated on the uniform shirt. A scout is courteous. At least make an effort. Some young people can be kinda sensitive about it. Stosh

My references, I guess, were from an older generation of US Flag Code. After reviewing the current Code those references no longer appear. However, the US Flag Code is not law, it is only intended for guidance for civilians on how to display the flag, salute, and show respect. There is no civil or criminal penalty for doing it differently. Some of the references in the Code are for informational purposes only. For example, the flying of the flag during naval services at sea is really a military protocol and NOT a civilian protocol. The reference is to indicate a difference when viewed by the civilian population. The same holds true for the military wearing the flag "backwards" on the right sleeve of the uniforms. The military can make up it's own rules and protocol and are NOT bound by the US Flag Code in any manner. They may be quite similar, but they don't have to be. The military fold the flag into a triangle as part of their protocol. Civilians witnessing this have traditionally followed that protocol, BUT no where in the US Flag Code does it give instructions on how to fold the flag. Civilians can fold it any way they wish as long as it is in a respectful manner. For those who wish to become informed of this variance in the US Flag Code over the years, it might be wise to go back to earlier generations of the Code. For example: in the original code, males "saluted" the flag by standing at attention, females, standing at attention, put their right hand over their heart. HOWEVER, if a man was wearing a hat, he took it off and while putting his right hand, with hat, over his heart and his hat was more in front of his shoulder. BUT, if it was raining, the man was to only lift his hat a few inches over his head, thus removing it, but retaining it's protection. According to the original US Flag Code, the flag would never have appeared as printed on anything, it was displayed ONLY flown free. (funeral pall was the only exception) No patches, no bumper stickers, etc. It could not be used by any private company for business promotion. As a matter of fact there was a big flap when the first US postage stamp came out with the US flag on it. First of all it was not displayed flying free and secondly by canceling the stamp, one desecrated the flag. Obviously attitudes over the years have changed as much as the US Flag Code. Yet, I can remember within my lifetime when wearing clothing made out of flags was accepted about as well as burning the flag. Cutting a hole in the flag and wearing it as a poncho was a common way to protest the War in Vietnam. Again, my apologies for not keeping up with the latest and greatest revision of the US Flag Code. Stosh

When I was a "rogue leader" my CM gave me a calendar of when the Pack meetings were and whether or not my den needed to be prepared to do something, i.e. flags, bring treats, do a program, etc. that rotated around in the dens. For our pack that was sufficient communication and I'm thinking that the leaders' meetings were more social than practical. I didn't attend them, so I wouldn't know. I don't know what more information I would need to "help the Pack go". Stosh

As I have mentioned before, the boys pick who they want in their patrols. Because of our numbers we presently have Tfoot through Eagle in our single patrol. Most of them are FC. Once we get back to 12 members, they can then decide who goes in what patrol. Our only "rule" is 6-8 boys per patrol, they make all the decisions as to how it works out. Currently our one patrol doesn't have a PL/APL, but two of the boys switch back and forth taking the lead on various projects/activities the patrol is involved in. Other patrol members take on activities and might act as PL for just that activity. When a boy is not taking point on an activity he is free to do anything else, i.e. QM, etc. to fill up his "free time". At the present time I have: 1 boy lining up Popcorn Sales for the fall drive (FC) (with funding going to new equipment) 1 boy lining up wreath sales for the pre-Christmas fundraiser (FC) (with funding going to Summer Camp) 1 boy planning our fall camporee (Star) 1 boy working on a recruitment drive for the Blue/Gold crossovers in the spring. (FC) 1 boy looking into service project opportunities because of the need for service project hours (TF) 1 boy planning out our winter camp location/program.(FC) 1 boy working with OA getting next year's eligible boys ready for an election (FC) 1 boy not involved in any leadership work presently (autistic) (FC) 1 boy just finished up putting together next year's activity calendar and putting it up on the website. (Eagle) 9 total This is the "structure" that the boys have decided on with an emphasis on tasks rather than job positions. Two of the boys will be attending the "adult" Roundtable program this evening to get information on the Popcorn Sales and OA contacts. With this blend of boys, it's difficult to decide who gets to wear PL for 6 months and get advancement credit while the others who are doing a ton of leadership work for no credit. The boys have decided that elections for PL will "just get in the way" and encourage boys to sit back and let whoever gets stuck with PL do the work. At least this way we avoid the "10% of the people do 90% of the work" issues. When we had a NSP (boy's decision) the TG acted as PL for the group, but rotated all the new scouts into the PL position so they all got a feel for taking lead on different activities for their patrol. Instead of one boy taking camporee responsibilities, one boy might do menu, another equipment, another finances, etc. Getting a piece wasn't overwhelming for the younger boys this way. Stosh

One must remember that the federal government adheres to the US Constitution and cannot establish itself in any religious matters. However, no where does it state that the individual states under their own constitutions are forbidden to. Interpretation, reinterpretation and further interpretations which are the problem, not the Constitution. A glaring breech of Constitution law occurred when the Territory of Utah applied for statehood and was told it had to reject it's religious principle of polygamy before it would be allowed statehood. Such a mandate is establishing religious tenets for a state. At the present time this religious freedom only seems to apply when convenient. This is what the Founding Fathers were trying to avoid in the first place. Unfortunately it didn't really stick. As far as a flag in church? It has three proper locations acceptable. The US flag can properly be displayed on the right of the congregation when it is down on the floor of the sanctuary. Located on the congregation's right, displaying itself towards the altar area. If the flag is up on the riser area of the altar area, it is displayed on the right of the speaker/clergy. The flag is now presenting itself back towards the congregation. If the flag is within the the railing of the altar area, if it is present, the religious flag is on the right of the officiant/clergy, not the US flag, it is on the left. The only other exception is for military purposes when the religious flag is flown ABOVE the US flag aboard naval vessels during the worship service. Most churches do fairly well with these guidelines, but not all. Stosh, MDiv

I guess I was a rogue den leader when I had my den. I didn't attend any leader meetings, was faithful to my den meetings and pack meetings. Did my paperwork and no one questioned my lack of participation in a leaders' meeting. My boys all got AOL (WDL) and everyone was happy except we got our AOL before it was official. The boys had a ton of fun and were excited about transitioning into Boy Scouts. What more could one ask for? Stosh

Group dynamics always seem to follow the pattern that 10% of the people do 90% of the work. This is not a good thing. If I'm doing 90% of the work that means 90% of the people out there may never get a real opportunity to get involved. This is a formula I have always kept in the forefront of my boy-led program. Unless the boys are doing 90% of the work, then I'm not doing my job of getting out of their way. I have often wondered how many people of that 90% would like to get more involved in any group activity but held back because the 10% were too busy doing the work they didn't notice. It's not that easy breaking into a clique group of well organized, high powered leaders that seem to have everything under control. Until some of the high powered 10%ers get out of the way, the 90%ers are going to sit back and let them burn themselves out. That's the only way an opening for them may occur. As a side note, ever notice how the 10%ers are always complaining how they always get a boatload of work? Most of that is because that's really what they want. We all like to feel we are indispensable. What the 10%ers don't realize is that if everyone of them found another person to help them, they'd become a 20%er and the workload would be cut in half. Duh! Stosh

For special occasions I have seen a lot of military veterans drag out their old uniforms and put them on. They are no longer in active service to the country, but I'm thinking they have earned the right to wear it in a dignified and honorable way. Anyone who has earned Eagle kinda fits into this same category for me at least. Stosh

I've been thinking about this thread a lot and came to a couple of questions concerning this issue. Are POR contracts necessary because we have failed in our responsibility to develop real leadership in our boys? Are POR contracts a last ditch effort to at least if they aren't going to lead at least follow? The message of contracts has an underlying assumption that because we don't trust we need written and signed agreements. Contracts are nothing more than adult "rules" by which youth must comply (follow) because any and all youth leadership endeavors have failed. In the 40 years of working with youth in a variety of different environments with social dynamics, I have never used nor ever needed any sort of contracts with the youth. After all when a kid screws up, the last thing he takes into consideration is any contract that he might have signed. But it does give recourse for the adult to dish out punishment without having to deal with the problem, just send the boy away and one doesn't have to deal with it, it's in black and white. It's kinda like the person who in a conflict situation in a group, instead of trying to work out the problem, merely digs up a copy of their bylaws, dusts them off, and starts quoting anything they can find to entrench their position. It's always easier to quote chapter and verse than it is to negotiate any resolutions of problems. Stosh

It's a known fact that cotton against the skin in cold weather is not a good idea. So to wear a turtle-neck or sweatshirt under the uniform is not as warm as say maybe a jack-shirt or wool sweater over the top. If you have a nice wool cardigan, plenty of sweater shows and it's easily removable for flags, special occasions, etc. For those who are really into warmth materials, be sure to wear you poly-lined wool long underwear so it looks nice coming out of the short sleeves. After all most are a neutral grey that shouldn't clash with any of the uniforms and might look a bit more dressed up with the commissioner's epaulets. Stosh

Our original can stoves used paraffin and cardboard for a fuel source. No leaking of any fuels into the backpack. It's still a viable option for mess kit cooking in that if one puts the tuna can burner inside the mess kit's boiler and uses 3 tent stakes for a "stove" one can even forget the bigger can. The tent stakes are a bit of a problem with sand, but in dirt, they work just fine. The tuna can doesn't leave a burn scar even on grass and the three little stake holes does fit into the LNT philosophy. Our tin can stoves used 2 cans - 1 tuna with fuel and the other (3# coffee) was placed UPSIDE DOWN over it and then instead of the elaborate set up described in an earlier post, one just cooked on the bottom of the inverted coffee can. We would put a series of holes around the rim of the coffee can and another around the "bottom" just under the cook surface. The more adventurous also poked holes halfway down the coffee can to run metal clothes hangers through and provide a shelf that would support the fuel off the ground and closer to the cooking surface. I just never like dragging a 3# coffee can around, but the tuna can is still around. When the fuel is gone in the tuna can, just make a new cardboard wick and melt in all that paraffin left over from Grandma's jelly jars! Like when you're making egg carton/sawdust fire starters, remember how flammable liquid paraffin can be. And yes, I know exactly where my church key is! Now all you need do is teach your boys how to make a bug light. (Now there's a terrifying idea!) Stosh

LOL shortridge! "While we're at it, whatever happened to the tradition of the tin-can stove?" Funny you should bring that up. There have been times when I have used the boy's charcoal chimney to cook on while they are getting the coals ready for their DO's. I'm usually done with my cooking by the time their charcoal is ready! Those old lessons are never forgotten! Stosh

Hmmm, off on a tangent here. "To clean a DO, fry pan, etc. that's in bad shape,..." I'm not talking about general cleaning of a DO, I'm talking about the DO you get at the antique store, the DO that was found in the back of the garage that Uncle John used to own and no one's used for 20 years, the DO that has been stored way too long and the rancid smell will gag you when you lift the cover. Okay? Got the picture in your mind? These are usually foul smelling and rusted in about 95% of the surface area. You know the ones I mean. These are the DO's, fry pans, etc. that you wish to take back to their original condition and restore! The steel wool is used only on the UNSEASONED cast iron that has come out of the self-cleaning oven. Then to get the rust off which will now be about 100% of the surface area, use a wire brush, steel wool or anything else you can think of to get it down to as much metal as you can without grinding. If you use water for this process you might want to heat it up when you're done to get the water out of all the little pores. Then put all metal grinders, brushes, pads back in their storage and don't use them again until you need to restore some cast iron! Then when it's all clean, now re-season using the appropriate material, veg. oil, olive oil, or beeswax depending on how you are going to be using the piece. Then clean as you would after you cook normally. I use only the 3-M green scrub pads on my cast iron which I use every day. My DO's get used every couple of weeks, some are in long-term storage because of their specialty status. As far as the fire in the oven is concerned. I have restored some fry pans with a heavy coating of chipped "varnish" that has accumulated over many years and never had a problem. I would not heavily oil a piece I was planning on restoring before putting in the oven. I have seen people clean off old oil and restore using the campfire, but regulating the cooling off process is a wee bit trickier. Cooling too fast can crack the piece. Same for pouring cold into a hot pan. Sorry for the confusion. Stosh

I use the standard wooden army cot. I use standard twin bedding which is too big for the cot so I tie an overhand knot in the corners of the sheet and they stay tucked around the four corners of the cot very nicely. Then I tie corners on the top sheet at the foot only. The wool blanket I use is too thick to tie a knot in so I tie a sheet bend with a small cord that I tie to the legs at the foot, one on each side. very thing stays in place nicely. Just untie the two knots at the head of the cot and the whole thing removes nicely to take outside and air for the day. Stosh

Didn't want to high jack the other thread. A couple of tips for those who have cast iron cookware, including DO's. To clean a DO, fry pan, etc. that's in bad shape, toss it into your self-cleaning oven. Put on rack upside down. Run the cycle. Let cool completely before opening oven door. The cold air could damage the cast iron! Before you get too mad, it will look terrible when done, and terrible is an understatement! Take it out and wash with water, scrubbing it down as much as possible to get the rust off. Wear old clothes. Use steel wool or 3-M scrub pads! Depending on your usage these are the three options: 1) For pieces that get a lot of usage and very little storage, season with vegetable oil. 2) For pieces that get little usage and long term storage (up to 1 year), season with olive oil. It doesn't go rancid as fast as vegetable oil. 3) For pieces that get minimal usage and extended long term storage (1 year+), season with beeswax. A stored beeswax cast iron piece can be stored in a damp place for 50 years and never go rancid or rust. The only difference with beeswax is that to apply a storage coat on the piece after usage, clean as you normally would, and then heat up. Rub the block of beeswax in the bottom and with paper towel coat all the cast iron. Let cool. You can always tell which pieces are beeswax because they are opaque and not shiny like oil treated pieces. And if you've stored it for any length of time, the smell will tell you as well. All DO's store with a wad of paper towel between oven and cover to get air inside. Stacked fry pans do the same thing. Pots with covers again, the same thing. Store in dry place. Stosh

I guess maybe I'm an agnostic when it comes to DO cooking. I use both charcoal and wood, which ever is handy. However, I do use equivalency when it comes to use of coals. I figure charcoal heats evenly for about a hour but wood heats evenly for only about half that time (oak) and about 15 minutes for softwoods (pine) It just means I have to change out coals 2-4 times as often depending on the type of wood is available. Where one puts the DO is important. Putting in the middle of the fire is one option, putting on tin foil is another, using a DO table is still another and burying it and building a fire over it is still another option. I find that the ground is notorious for draining away heat from off the bottom layer of heat. Those that stack know this and adjust for it by putting more on the bottom of the bottom DO. Using a DO table is like having another DO below. My rule of thumb for coals is the 3-up, 3-down rule (#12 DO means 9 briquettes or equivalent wood coals on bottom and 15 briquettes/equivalent on top) which gives me about a 350-degree oven. If I'm doing pot roast or stew I could care less, but if I'm baking, it gets real important really quick. If I'm on the ground I'm a bit more generous on the bottom, if I'm on the DO table, I don't adjust. I've done this for both aluminum as well as cast iron DO's. One must take care not to ever overheat a dry aluminum DO (baking) but all you'll do is burn your food in cast iron if you overheat. The only thing I have never tried is burying the DO after breakfast with dinner in it and then kept a fire going over the top. That is reserved more for the stews and pot roasts. It is like a slow cooker, not ever to be used for baking. One also has to consider there are two depths to DO's That means the top of the DO is farther away from the hot cover (Stewing DO) and won't brown as nicely as in the shorter one (Baking DO). Unless one knows what piece of equipment (sizes, depths, materials) one uses and the differences between charcoal/wood and pine/oak, it's just a major crap-shoot as to what you're going to get in the end. I cook all the way from #8 through #14 using exclusively the shorter bakers. I have one #12 aluminum which I use canoeing. And yes I have a personal aluminum DO I use as well, it's my mess kit and makes a nice blueberry muffin in the morning. 3 briquettes on the bottom, 4 on top. Make sure your mess kit isn't damaged and forms a nice tight seal. Stosh

I like to sleep on a cot and do it as often as I can get away with it. But, once the temperature drops, I'm on the ground. That constant exchange of cold air beneath me makes me colder than if I'm on the ground. The ground may draw off some of your body heat through the insulation, but it will eventually warm up and stop. The constant exchange of air beneath will never stop drawing off heat and as the air actually moves, it accelerates cooling. I've slept better on snow/ice with vapor barrier, foam pad combo with -20-degree bag than same set up at 0-degrees on a cot. Your mileage may vary. Stosh

Oooh, ooooh, ooooh, I get to hijack my own thread. What's your favorite mess kit recipe? The one I always use to impress the boys: ZipLock bag #1 1 boneless pork chop, cut up into pieces. 1 small union, chopped up into pieces 1 pat of butter (or wee bit of oil) Salt and pepper to taste ZipLock Bag #2 1/2 c. Minute rice (adjust to appetite, could go up to 1 c.) Use equal amounts of water/rice. Add your salt to the bag. ZipLock Bag #3 1 sm. jar of sweet/sour sauce. Open jar toss into bag directly, seal well. Ziplock Bag #4 After getting all the air out of ZipLocks 1-3, put into 4th bag with cooking instructions and squeeze the air out of it. Cooking Instructions: Dump ZipLock #1 into fry pan. Brown contents. Bring water to boil. If you boil too much water, don't worry just pour it off later. Dump ZipLock #2 into boiling water, take off fire, cover and let sit 5 minutes. Dump Ziplock #3 into fry pan to warm up Dump drained rice onto plate. Dump sauce and pork over it. Whittle two chop sticks. (pun intended) Knock yourself out! And you thought the dried out foil dinners were easy! This process should take about half the time as foil dinners. The double plastic bags on everything makes it safe in a pack. On a 2-3 day trip, I put ice in 4th bag to keep cold to extend a day, wrap in clothing which is in a ziplock of it's own. When it's melted, just pour the water into your drinking bottle. If the bag leaks on your cloths, just dry them out, it's only water. Stosh

Quick question for all. I'm not in an area of the country that does much with burning bans so we do a lot of wood fires all the time. However, in a burn ban area is the use of charcoal restricted as well? Stosh

I have seen these 10# tans at a lot of the swap-out, refill places. The 20#'s stand about 2' tall and the 10#'s are the short squatty ones. The hook-ups are the same for both. I can't be sure but it was one of the major chains, (like Wal-Mart) that had them in their cages. Just keep an eye out for a source in your neighborhood, I'm sure they're out there. And yes, the price was outrageous. Whereas the 10# should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 1/2 the price of the 20#, that simply is not the case. What you might consider doing is investing in enough 10# tanks and then (because they are refillable) just have them refilled at your RV place that will charge just for the propane itself. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

On cold days I wear a long sleeved shirt with wool jacket. I never wear long sleeves under a short sleeve shirt. If a boy needs more warmth, put on a sweater, sweatshirt or coat. If one is going to do flags, just take the coat off for a few minutes. If it's too cold to do that. "Salute" with your hand over your heart and keep your coat on. No big deal. Personally, I think a long sleeved shirt under a short sleeved shirt looks worse than putting on a coat when it's cold. If one has a tendency to be uncomfortably cold when others aren't, then see a doctor or buy a long sleeved shirt. Most organizations that expect uniforms, except when indoors all the time have both a winter and summer uniforms or some process to accommodate the changes in temperature. None of them use long sleeves under short sleeves as an option. Stosh