Stosh

Yep, as long as they have SM approval. For me this is more of a goal I have for scouting than to get them individually to Eagle. Stosh

Welcome from Wisconsin, I used to work for NE Iowa Council back in the late '70's. Stosh

One must remember that when they take a comment out of context, it can and often times leads to a completely different intent than what was originally meant. To "break the cycle" often times does not mean break the kid in the process or to do any physical or emotional harm to him. It only means to do something different to produce a different outcome. If every time Sammy has his tantrums, parents, scout leaders, teachers, etc. all react the same way, he will know how to work the system. However, if any one should happen NOT to react in a way expected by Sammy, it will throw off his ability to produce the outcome he anticipates. I do this with normal kids, (that is if any of them are ever "normal"). If they screw up, they expect adults to come down on them with both feet and when that doesn't happen, they are at a loss what to do. It breaks the cycle of behavior and forces a different outcome. If tantrums produce a benefit for this scout, what happens when it doesn't produce the anticipated outcome? They need to reevaluate what happened and it buys enough time and attention that the situation can be addressed in a whole new light. Sharky's original comment stated: "He has not been diagnosed with any behavioral problems, he's just extremely immature." and I'm assuming if there is any serious problems that need to be addressed, the parents, teachers, counselors, etc. along the way would have tried them by the time he's 14 years old. One has to remember sometimes people on this thread read just what's written and don't tend to read anything more into it. Stosh

How do you measure the speed and gait of a snake? or a bird? Doing a historical MB in a contemporary world is quite a challenge. It's too bad that the MB can't be done in Central Park, desert SW, or any place else for that matter, we have troops in all these places. I'm lucky enough to live in an area where it would be quite easy to do the MB, but I don't have a downtown Chicago troop either. Stosh

Oooh, an A. Brown fan. Me too. That's why I only use welding gloves. They work for everything. Protection when sawing wood, chopping kindling, handling logs that roll around the campfire, putting out small fires, picking up briquettes and arranging them on the lid, lifting covers, and moving DO's around, grabbing foil dinners off the fire, etc. Buy the best there is, they are pricey, but I have two pair that I've used for 20 years, it is well worth the investment and in my backpack, I have at least one for when I mess kit cook and don't need both hands for the strength of handling heavy DO's. Stosh

I'm in Evmori's camp on this one. From following the thread, there were a couple of comments that stuck out. One being that when the boy acts up, dad steps in to deal with it, worse possible time he pulls a fit, etc. Having worked with kids for 40 years, I do know that kids who seek attention will seek negative attention when they don't get enough positive attention. After all, being the center of the stage in a negative way is just as effective as in a positive way if all you are interested in is center stage. Kids learn from an early age that if they can bully their parents by having a tantrum at the grocery store over a candy bar and it works, surely they'll do it again. Ever hear of the parent that said that they are too embarrassed to take their kids to the store for this reason? The problem is not with the kids, it's the parents. They give in once, they're going to have to give in until they decide to change their attitude and break the cycle. My wife and I were at the grocery store and my son had one of his little temper tantrums. It wasn't the usual stamping around screaming and flailing of arms and legs, it was the one where he cried so hard he couldn't catch his breath and was heading towards passing out. My wife grabbed him before he hit the floor and laid him down. He did a great job of going from blue to white and then passed out. You should have hear the crowd! WE were the cruel people who were going to just stand there and watch their kid die right in front of them. Well, we were both EMT-A's and knew that when he passed out, his breathing would return to normal. A lady in the crowd finally screamed at my ex-wife and asked her what she was going to do and my ex answered, "When he starts breathing again, I'm going to pick him up with the rest of the groceries and we're going to go out in the car and go home." We did just that. I have often wondered why we didn't get someone to call child services on that one, but they didn't. A friend of mine had a kid that wouldn't go down at night and would always scream until they picked him back up. They asked their doctor what they should do about it. He suggested whiskey! They couldn't figure out how giving whiskey to a child would help. He said it wasn't for the kid. You put the kid to bed, say goodnight, turn out the light, shut the door, go down to the other end of the house and pour a glass for him and his wife and sip it slowly. If the kid is still crying and having a fit when the glass is empty, pour another one. Repeat as necessary. While I am referring to toddlers, the pattern they have learned over the years unless interrupted will continue on to some degree in later years. It's how that child interacts with their parents and if they can get away with it with them, it'll work elsewhere. Some parents even go so far in their enabling so as to join in with the tantrum. They are the Soccer Moms and Little League Dads who are always complaining about their kid's playing time, playing position, etc. And yes, even they will have a tantrum if they don't get their way. Whereas it is tempting to try and diagnose this problem as the kid's problem, I can assure you it goes far beyond that. If this kid has been around for a while in the troop, I'll almost guarantee the dad's been one step behind him all the way cleaning up his messes. I'm willing to guess mom and dad had to be there every step of the way in Cub Scouts because the DL couldn't "handle his antics". Break the cycle, the kid won't die if he doesn't get his way! It may take a while, pour a second glass if necessary, but hang in there, it's for the boy's own good. Give dad a night off and bite the bullet knowing it's but one battle in a war. You may not think at the time it's true but adults can get through it with no real injuries. Some of my best scouts have been those that have stuck it out through my antics of expecting them to grow up and break the cycle of expecting mom and dad to bail out their butts every time they wanted something. Kids have to grow up and realize that manipulating others around them, including parents, is not proper social behavior for adults. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

I've done DO cooking for 20 years, never owned lid lifter. On occasion, if handy, I use a long handled channel lock, otherwise I use welding gloves. Reach down, grab the lid, lift it off, no problem, just like lifting the lid off the pot at home. When I first started DO cooking, there was a lid lifter, but could never find it when I needed it. Just got used to using the gloves after that. The gloves were always by the fire ready to use. Stosh

Bugles, patrol flags, and patrol yells all used to serve different effective functions than what most people today understand. Like the phrase "Rally 'round the flag" use to mean something. People use that phrase today and don't even have a flag! As a non-electronic form of communication, these items work great in a non-electrical environment. However, if the only the bugler knows what's going on, it is totally useless in its functionality. Morse Code is useless unless both people know it. Here's the scenario: The SPL wants to get everyone ready to go to some activity at summer camp. Boys are all over the place maybe out in the woods gathering wood or just screwing around. Some of the boys are in their tents straightening everything up for the day (yeah, right). The SPL locates only one boy, the bugler and says: "Sound Assembly". The Bugler plays it. Everyone within a half mile can hear it. Once in camp, the PL is waving the patrol flag and giving the yell. Now the boys separate out into their patrols. They know where their patrol is forming because he can see the flag! The PL is giving the yell because it's still a bit dark and the flag may be difficult to see. Either way, visually or audibly the call to gather is made. Once everyone is where they need to be they can head out for their activity. All this without having to do anything more than let the bugler know what to play! Otherwise, you have the SPL running around yelling at everyone to fall in, boys in the woods can't hear his banshee screaming, the SM is jumping in to roust the boys out of their tents, and the place is like a Chinese fire drill. What the bugler can effectively accomplish in 10 seconds, anything else will take 5-10 minutes and frazzled nerves. Now take away the bugle, turn the patrol flag into a token to be dragged around at camporee competitions and the yell that someone made up 5 minutes before the last camporee competition, and you have a troop with no ability to communicate to itself. Like Morse Code and the signal button on the old flashlights, it's only a memory for old people. Yet, I do know that military pilots still use it and while at Jamboree I was playing with my old signal mirror on sunny days and got a couple of the helicopter pilots to stop and wave when they got my simple "Hi" message. .... .. Functionally the bugle can be a great tool when used properly. But like the telegrapher's key, unless you know how to use it is pretty much useless except as a wall ornament or in this case, a conversation piece. Stosh

Everyone is different on this process. The troop I used to be with would critique every project application, starting with the SM, then the ASM's and even members of the committee. It would seem that by the time the adults got done with it it was more their application than the boy's. On the other hand, I ask the boy what his project is all about and if it sounds like a good idea, then I merely sign it. I don't read their proposals, I take them verbally from the boy and we talk about his plans. It's the scout's project, it's up to him to do it. When I sign off, I'm signing off on their idea, not their ability to write an application. If it gets kicked back once or twice, then it's their problem, not mine. I did once have a boy's project questioned as to its merit. Members of the EBOR called me and discussed it with me. I felt it had merit and had suggested it to the boy to do. They approved it then and by the time the boy completed it, the project had made the front page of the second section of the state-wide newspaper. I guess it did have merit. To this day I have never read an Eagle application. If a boy asks me to read it for content, spelling, etc. I will direct him to follow his ability to find the best people possible in every aspect of his project, this might mean talking with his English teacher rather than his SM on this issue. True leadership involves finding the best people for the job. Stosh Stosh

While Hayward WI has this great statue of a huge muskie, a town in my area has this huge sunfish. There's just something wrong about that! Why can't we get a nice big predator fish instead of a yuppie guppy? My town has a huge 20' Indian. Man!, does that ever draw in the tourists! I'm thinking it's kinda like a car accident. You don't want to look, but you just gotta. Stosh

SPAM MUSEUM! You missed it???? My daughter and I had just taken the trip around Lake Superior and she was reading brochures on MN in the car and said she wanted to go there. Like it was 250 miles out of the way. Hey, it's my daughter, of course we're going there. It was worth the side trip. VERY nice and it's not just a blow through, it'll take some time with a load of boys. Oops, forgot to mention. Our fall camporee is going to be an Iron Chef weekend. Every patrol is to put up their best recipe in the competition. You guessed it, it has to have SPAM in it! Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

Hardly a day goes by that I don't see multiple examples of improper flag protocol. If I were a full-time flag police, I could probably put a pretty good dent in the national debt with what I see just in my town. Stosh

I would think that an issue of the US Flag Code would be a "particularly American issue". On the other hand there is not much the average scout comes in contact with on a different country's procedures. The flying of another nation's flag under the US flag is forbidden under international flag protocols. We did have an exchange scout at our summer camp last summer from Indonesia. The flags of the US and Indonesia were flown on two separate, equal height poles. I did notice that when the flags came down, the US flag was folded in the traditional triangle, but the Indonesian flag was folded differently, but the same way different every time. I'm sure this was the protocol for folding an Indonesian flag. 1) fold the flag lengthwise (same as for the US flag. 2) fold it again lengthwise (same as for the US flag, but one didn't have to worry about the union being on the outside. 3) Turn the flag so it is now vertical rather than horizontal. 4) Hold the end with one hand at the end and then with the other hand about 1' up the flag, fold and zig-zag back and forth until you get to the other end. Then the person holding the other end holds his arms out and the flag is draped over both forearms. It was very precise and purposeful and the process was repeated the same whether it was the Indonesian scout or camp staff doing the retirement. I'm sure there is national protocol for every country and none of them exactly alike. I'm thinking the International flag code would pertain to how to fly your national flag relative to other national flags, i.e. at sea, UN building, etc. but would have very little to concern itself with how to fly a flag in a place of worship. I'm thinking that would probably fall into that country's national flag code. Stosh

Dont' get me wrong, I think all the hype generated for the boys by reenactors is a great thing. As a CW reenactor, the 36 star flag gets the same respect and honor as the 50 star flag even though it no longer is an official flag of the US. According to the US Flag Code, civilians are not allowed to mark on the US flag, but these flags all have battle honors painted on. We know as reenactors we are a civilian group and not military and thus when asked to lead in a parade, as a color guard we are asked the go to the head of the parade. We do and we're the first unit BEHIND any and all other true military, and veteran groups. I remember once being asked by a American Legion group at a small town parade to take the lead because we looked better than their 4 guys, a couple of guns, and a small flag. No way was our 36 star flag going to go before the veterans with a 50 star flag. However, on occasion as part of the scenario, the flag bearer goes down and the flag is dropped to the ground. Is it an act of defiance to the flag? or is it a dramatic emphasis by the reenactors to portray the dedication and love these men had on the field of battle when the flag was still held by human hands in the face of the enemy. The historic battle flags of the civil war were huge in comparison to the staff from which they flew. If one puts the butt of the staff on the ground, the flag hangs down to about 1' off the ground. It had to be big enough that 1,000 men of the regiment could see it and keep their position relative to it on the battlefield. The pole could not be so big so as to be a burden to the flag bearer. Whereas the flag touches the ground many times during the course of a reenactment, there isn't one reeactor out there that wouldn't go to the mat to honor and respect it, regardless of what some flag code said. If it was me all personnel of the USS Kidd and USS Yorktown should be expected to wear WWII naval uniforms. That way the boys when they get piped aboard it is as if they walk back into history and are immersed into it. Sounds like a great opportunity for your boys. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

I'm kinda of the opinion that if a boy has to be pushed or dragged across the finish line of Eagle, he's a good follower, but hasn't learned anything about leadership. I'm thinking boys that get Eagle under these circumstances may be missing the point of what Eagle is all about. I'm also thinking that parents and/or SM's who do the pushing/pulling also miss the same point. Stosh

Eagle 92, Nope. Just because the service is in accordance to Navy regs, it's still not a military service. I could go through all the motions of leading a Catholic Mass, but that doesn't make it a Catholic Mass. Especially in the fact that I'm not Catholic. The boys on the Yorktown aren't navy personnel and they are not at sea. Stosh

You should be able to get FC, maybe Star, join venturing and complete your Eagle if you wanted to work really hard. BUT - instead of turning Scouting into a rank marathon, why not just pick up some skills, hang out with your buddies and have a good time and enjoy the program. Get enough information to help your brothers and when you age out to 18, get further training and become an ASM to continue helping them be good scouts. If Scouting isn't going to be fun, then you're joining up for all the wrong reasons. Stosh

And to think after the initial panic/terror that the lid is forever welded on, all you have to do is heat it up! The first time I did it, I figured my $60 DO is headed for the garbage. Stosh

I am not an Eagle Scout. Spent 4 years in scouting and got to 2nd Class. It was a poorly run troop. I've told myself that I will never do to a boy what was done to me. With that being said, I do not emphasize Eagle as much as I promote individual leadership development. I constantly prepare my boys for the world to come. If he enters it as an Eagle, great, if he doesn't, that's still great. Buddy System: Marriage Patrol Method: Family, work POR: Church boards, community involvement Service Projects: volunteerism etc. If these dynamics aren't taught, the boy will turn 18 and haven't a clue what's expected of him in adult life. Most people take a few years learning on their own and hopefully in the long run it works for them. I always ask my boys: after they're married and have kids of their own and their little 6 year-old comes up and asks, "Daddy, can we go to Disney World?" and you have to say no because you don't know how to read maps, plan meals, provide shelter, pack appropriately, budget costs and coordinate with the Mrs. etc. because you've never had to do it before. It's going to be a sad day for you (and your little one). Scouting provides an opportunity to teach/learn all these things before the boys turn 18. One doesn't need to be an Eagle to be able to be a great husband, father and friend. It's a nice perk, but not a prerequisite for life. Scouting is. I'm surely not going to stand in the way of any scout wanting to get his Eagle. That's a great thing, but I see far too often, a boy following all the steps, following all the directions, following all the best ideas, following all the advice of others, and never once leading anything and still getting his Eagle because he fulfilled all the requirements. Kindergarten 101, Following Directions. Your mileage may vary. Stosh

I realize it's just a discussion, but there are those that seem to think that the US Flag Code specifically states something when in fact it does not. I made the mistake of using an older version of the Code that was outdated and after checking it out, those references have been removed. However the tradition lives on. There are a lot of things that pertain to what the Code actually says and what people think it says. I don't mind people adhering to older versions of the Code because they are still trying to remain respectful, yet some of the older versions have passages that would today seem disrespectful, such as a man removing his hat in bad weather and simply holding it above their head, or standing there at attention without putting his hand over his heart. At one time this was the instruction in years past. It was also instructed in the original Code that when saying the Pledge to start out with your hand over your heart, but when you say "...to the Flag", you were to extend that hand towards the flag with the palm up. Well, after seeing the Nazi salute do something quite similar, but with palm down, that "tradition" quickly went by the wayside. It's also a problem when one watches the military protocols thinking they are civilian protocols. They aren't. The military process of folding the flag in a triangle is NOT prescribed by the US Flag Code, but it does look nice and there's nothing wrong if people think this is a good idea. It's just not proper to announce that this is what the Code says, because it doesn't. I still see people fly their heritage flags under the US flag. Flying the national flag of Norway, or Canada is not proper under the US flag and that is International Flag Code, but it is reflected in the US Flag Code. Another "tradition" that is often misquoted is that the US Flag draped on a coffin is only for military. It is part of the civilian US Flag Code and is proper for any US citizen to have the flag palled over their coffin. The list goes on and on and makes for interesting discussion on this forum. I just try (and was corrected earlier in this post) to use the appropriate current information from the Code. When teaching the boys, I always make every attempt to do what is proper and respectful. Stosh

The BSA flag is not backwards. It is actually displaying itself correctly to the viewer and shouldn't make any difference which way someone is walking. Is it supposed to hang down when the person stands still? Wearing it "flying backwards" is a military designation, not appropriate for civilian protocol. If someone is so dang-fired set on making sure the artificially fly's to the rear of the wearer, why not just put it on the left sleeve! After all it's closer to the heart that way! For all those who's undies are in a major knot/bundle, just remove it, it's not a required part of the uniform, or move it, it used to be worn over the right pocket, and maybe you'll get a better night's sleep. Stosh

My long-term stored cast iron items, or at least items that I plan on storing long-term, are seasoned originally with bees wax and I just cook normally with it. Sure I add oil to cook, but once it's seasoned with bees wax, I stick with it. I clean it out the same as with oil, but then heat it up to remove moisture and melt the wax. Sealing in rancid oil is not a good idea to me so I wouldn't season with oil and then wax over it for long term storage. It might work, but I've never tried it. If seasoned with oil, I stay with oil, if seasoned with wax, I stay with wax. I have both oil based and wax based items and it's easy to tell them apart. If the finish on them is shiny, it's oil, opaque it's wax. Another way to tell: if you gag when you open up a stored DO it's oil, if you open it and it smells like honey, it's wax. For short-term items, I prefer the oil, but not because it is better in anyway, it's just more convenient. I've used all kinds of oil but prefer Olive Oil over the rest. Being a fruit based oil and not a vegetable based oil, it has a higher smoking point and will eventually go rancid, but nowhere near as fast as vegetable oils. I have stored olive oil items for over a year and haven't noticed the rancid as I used to with vegetable oils. Also when storing DO's that have been stored for moderate periods of time, be sure to stick a wadded up paper towel under the cover to keep it from sealing off the inside. A properly seasoned DO won't mind having damp air circulating inside of it. I have stored my DO's in a damp basement for years and have never had any problems with rust. And, by the way, if you use wax, be sure to let the DO completely cool off before putting the cover on it or it will seal itself shut. Not to worry, just heat it up again and the cover will come off with no problem. Don't try and remove a sealed cover without heating it, it's almost impossible to do so without damaging the DO. The layer of wax is the same as one would have as oil, but be careful when applying the wax because being hot enough to melt in order to apply also means it's hot enough to burn fingers and hands. This is the rule of thumb I've always used with all my cast iron. 1) Daily use: any oil that is handy. 2) Moderate storage: Olive Oil - (6-12 mo's) 3) Long-term storage: Bees Wax - (1 yr. +) I've never done the donut treatment on my DO. I usually apply a very thin layer of oil/wax, bake at 350 for a hour, then do a second very thin layer of oil/wax. Depending on where the item is stored, i.e. basement/garage, I'll do an extra layer of oil/wax to retard the rust. Stosh

Camping or backpacking? Kinda makes a difference as to whether or not you have to carry something extra to keep the back healthy. When I'm on the ground I use 2 closed cell pads plus a RidgeRest. Then I also have an extra sleeping bag over that. But I also spend more time than usual finding a nice place and clearing it of all rocks and sticks. The boys usually cut me some slack for this because I'm getting up there in years and every time I go out it becomes more and more difficult. I have a small cot that I use that will fit in a military duffle and that keeps me 4" off the ground. That helps. When I'm in long-term/car camping, I have a standard military cot I use. I've never used an inflatable mattress since I was a kid. They always leaked and I got tired of relying on the unreliable. Stosh

CHAPTER 309 - BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA Sec. 30901. Organization. 30902. Purposes. 30903. Governing body. 30904. Powers. 30905. Exclusive right to emblems, badges, marks, and words. 30906. Restrictions. 30907. Annual and special meetings. 30908. Annual report. 36 USC Sec. 30901 02/01/2010 TITLE 36 - PATRIOTIC AND NATIONAL OBSERVANCES, CEREMONIES, AND ORGANIZATIONS Subtitle II - Patriotic and National Organizations Part B - Organizations CHAPTER 309 - BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA Sec. 30901. Organization -STATUTE- (a) Federal Charter. - Boy Scouts of America (in this chapter, the "corporation") is a body corporate and politic of the District of Columbia. (b) Domicile. - The domicile of the corporation is the District of Columbia. © Perpetual Existence. - Except as otherwise provided, the corporation has perpetual existence. -SOURCE- (Pub. L. 105-225, Aug. 12, 1998, 112 Stat. 1325.) HISTORICAL AND REVISION NOTES -------------------------------------------------------------------- Revised Source (U.S. Code) Source (Statutes at Large) Section -------------------------------------------------------------------- 30901 36:21. June 15, 1916, ch. 148, Secs. 1, 2 (words before 2d comma), 39 Stat. 227. 36:22 (words before 2d comma). -------------------------------------------------------------------- This section is substituted for the source provisions for consistency in the revised title and to eliminate executed and unnecessary words. 36 USC Sec. 30902 02/01/2010 TITLE 36 - PATRIOTIC AND NATIONAL OBSERVANCES, CEREMONIES, AND ORGANIZATIONS Subtitle II - Patriotic and National Organizations Part B - Organizations CHAPTER 309 - BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA Sec. 30902. Purposes -STATUTE- The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916. This is a direct quote from the US Code. It kinda makes one wonder about all the efforts of today's Scouters to make changes when such efforts may be in direct conflict with the Federal Charter prescribed Congress. Kinda makes one wonder... any thoughts? Stosh

"Correct. But applies to the flag, or A flag, not an embroidered patch representing the flag, which is worn with the union to the wearer's front, giving the same orientation as if the person were carrying a flag. ie: The patch is not "backwards" on the uniform." "5. Display and use of flag by civilians; codification of rules and customs; definition The following codification of existing rules and customs pertaining to the display and use of the flag of the United States of America be, and it is hereby, established for the use of such civilians or civilian groups or organizations as may not be required to conform with regulations promulgated by one or more executive departments of the Government of the United States. The flag of the United States for the purpose of this chapter shall be defined according to title 4, United States Code, Chapter 1, Section 1 and Section 2 and Executive Order 10834 issued pursuant thereto." (US Flag Code) "No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart." (US Flag Code) No where in the Code does it say it is appropriate for civilians to fly the flag as a flag patch in a manner of the direction of the person's walk. It is displayed with union in the upper left corner. Non-civilian organizations such as the US military branches adhere to such regulations as codified by Army Regulation 840-10, Navy Flag Regulations Navy NTP-13B, etc. Those Regulations may and can be different than those expected of the civilian population. Boy Scouts is a civilian organization and adheres to the civilian code. Stosh