Stosh

Dang! Because of my dyslexia,I had a Howdy Doody flashback! I'm okay, just give me a minute. Stosh

Given the fact that we might all agree that the kids and maybe their parents are making choices in the various programs, it is up to each of the programs to insure they are competitive or the choice will be easy for the kids because no one is even going to consider a lesser value program over something more exciting and different. Trying to make oneself competitive does not mean that one takes the best of the competition and make it better. Without a track record on your side you'll never do as well as they can. With that being said, if we offer a variant program, something that kids can't get anywhere else, then there is a real choice. If all we do is duplicate other youth programs then the decision making may be closer but about half the time we're going to lose. What is it about scouting that a person cannot get anywhere else? What is it in scouting that they have a track record that others wish to duplicate and try and become competitive with us on? If one cannot answer these kinds of questions, then toss up your hands and quit because butting your head against the traditional brick wall is your only choice. One of our local Outdoors programs at the university put on a one day seminar for kids in the neighborhood. The kids got to shoot guns, and bows, and they built fires and ..... It looked like a Scoutfest. But! It made the news as something that the kids were not getting an opportunity to do anywhere else. At the end of the news broadcast they announced that because the day was such a success they were going to do it again next year. Wow, what a kick in the head to their local scouting program! Let's take retention for example. Cub Scout (generally the majority of those entering the program) are all excited about this new adventure called Boy Scouts. They hit the advancement trail and knock out Scout, Tfoot, 2nd and 1st Class the first year. Then things bog down. The newness wears off and we begin the struggle of the sophomore slumps. For those that survive, tokens of adventure are doled out in limited numbers. The expectation is to pour all the older boys' energies into "training up the newbies." Toss in a Jambo, or a Philmont, or Sea Base here and there, but remember one has to go back to the same old summer camp these boys have been to for the fourth or fifth time. The reason we lose our older boys is because we have no end-game. Sure Eagle is something of an end-game, but only about 2% of the boys ever make it. There's something seriously flawed in the program. How would our schools do if all the juniors and seniors in high school were expected to interact with the freshmen and get them educated? No, the schools offer a challenge for the older students and one doesn't have to take Biology twice and then teach it to others before they graduate. All but one of my boys currently is FC or above. Everything we do should be something new and different. Every outing should be a new challenge/adventure, not just the same old camporee they have already attended twice a year for the past 4 years. The challenge should be: No summer camp this year, you need to plan a trip to the BWCA instead. No camporee this spring because you need to plan a trip white water canoeing someplace. The older boys are expected to teach one week a month basic education for the yonger boys, but the other three are expected to be planning various outings designed only for them. They cannot do what they did last year either. It has to be something altogether new. Biking weekend? Kayak instead of canoe? Hike to a different place where there are no campgrounds? Go fishing and catch fish that don't need to be counted towards a MB? Once that mindset is established, the older boys won't be in a hurry to leave. They won't be bored out of their gords and the programming for them will be specific to their interests and needs. So everyone says Whoa! That means there has to be two programs for every troop! Yep. The adults focus on training up the newbies with a wee bit of help from those older boys that may wish to help out and the older boys focus on their own program where the SM literally kicks them out of the nest and watches them either fall to the ground or soar. The older boys totally resent staying in the newbie nest and never given a chance to try out their wings which they have been diligently taught to use. What's the value of learning a musical instrument if you never play in a concert? What's the value of learning to play a sport if you never play in a game? What's the sense of learning all this leadership and scout craft if you never get a chance to use it out in the woods? We all take our shots at blaming girls, sports and cars for drawing our boys away because it justifies the poor program we are running. I have been able to compete on the girls, sports and cars level because if I have a program that offers far more excitement than that, they stick around. I can never improve my program if the only thing wrong with it is something else (i.e. girls, sports and cars) then I'm going to continue in my myopia and let the boys leave and I'll sit back thinking it's someone else's fault for my problem. In the words of the infamous Pogo, "We have met the enemy and it is us." Stosh

A quick look at a number of various websites on 4 season tents seems to indicate: 1) Stronger poles for wind/snow pressure. 2) LESS ventilation to retain heat. I didn't see any tents with the frost collector sheet in them. So, if one is going to use a tent in the winter and need maximum ventilation, they had better keep with the 3 season tent. As far as wind is concerned, it blows just as hard in the summer as it does in the winter. Snow collection on or over the tent is marked as a plus because of it's insulation properties, so make sure the poles are strong. I'm still a fan of putting one's resources into bags, pads, etc. rather than the tent when it comes to winter camping. Stosh

I always use the analogy with my boys that just because you reach the rank of General, doesn't mean you can quit the Army. Reaching rank has a reason and responsibility attached to it. Reaching Eagle only to quit speaks volumes about how that scout feels about it. If a scout reaches Eagle only to announce to himself that he is now fully trained to actually DO anything and everything he's been trained to do and affords himself the luxury of applying that over the course of his veteran years in the program, he's probably not going to get pegged a Parlor Scout in anyone's opinion. However, when a scout attains Eagle only to brag about it, it always begs the question: "So?" I don't buy into the tradition of "once an Eagle always an Eagle". It's not an issue of what you ARE, but an issue of what you DO. I'm not a fan of being a General with no army to lead. What's the point? If an Eagle doesn't do his good turn daily for the rest of his life, there's really not much value to anyone with him being an Eagle, he's only a Parlor Scout then. Stosh

This only emphasizes the point I made earlier. Is rank an award or level of training? If it's training, the Eagle scout has attained a level of training that allows him to do the absolute ultimate in high adventure. Of course if it's just an award, then get the prize and get out, I'll even hold the door for you..... My boys have picked up on the old nomenclature Parlor Scout. The scout may have all the knowledge concerning scouting skills, but until he gets his butt off the parlor bench, it is in name only. Stosh

Okay, I'm going on distant memory of an old guy here. Beavah is right about the weight of the snow. 4 season tents tend to be more rugged, but thus, heavier. The frost item inside the tent seemed to be another layer of nylon that suspended over the sleepers so that vapor coming off the sleepers rose up with the heat and collected on this extra sheet, eventually freezing rather than freezing on the sides of the tent. It was a way of collecting the moisture rather than ventilating it off thus increasing air movement within the tent. Whatever warmish air was in the tent stayed in the tent as long as possible. I'm thinking then that this extra sheet could be carefully removed in the morning, dried out and reused the next night. This would minimize the collection of moisture on the inside of the waterproof tent. It's been a very long time since I read about this topic and I might be full of hot air, but then that's not such a bad thing when winter camping either. Stosh

jblake47: My boys know the routine. A couple of weeks ago one of the boys in my troop blew the zipper out on his uniform pants and so he wore blue jeans and the rest of his uniform. At flags he did not give the scout salute and instead put his hand over his heart. No one said a thing. ScoutBox: Sorry, but I think that is wrong. This isn't the military. and the boy had an excuse. But not being about to Salute the flag as usual is wrong. I think that that is exclusion.. not what I want any boy to feel in my troop. In the field, do they wear 1000% uniforms for morning and evening Flags? I know at Summer camp we do, but a weekend camp out? I really don't think it would be appropriate to pass onto the boy that his decision to use the civilian salute while not in uniform is wrong. Either way the boy showed proper respect to the flag, but by recognizing he was not in uniform also showed respect to the uniform. Those that give respect get respect. I'm thinking the boy did just fine. Of course that also begs the back-handed question as to whether or not using bits and pieces of the scout uniform as a uniform shows proper respect as well. I might be a wee bit old world when I think that getting by with the minimum when it comes to teaching boys leadership isn't really a very good idea. Do I expect that getting 2% of my boys to Eagle is good enough to get by? Do I expect that tying the square knot once is good enough to get by? Esprit-de-corp and pride in one's unit is dependent upon the general attitude of each of it's members. My boys quietly take pride in the fact that they are the only uniformed troop in our council and when they show up for adult meetings like Roundtable and University of Scouting, they notice that they are uniformed more than the majority of adults present. It is in a silent recognition of this attitude that maybe the boy used the civilian salute rather than the scout salute in this situation. I did not ask him, it was a private matter unto himself. But then esprit-de-corps works that way. Being a boy-led program, I don't often question the boys' decisions about certain things, but by what they decide and do, speaks volumes about what's going on inside their heads, not just some patch they wear on their shirt. Stosh (Forgot to mention: my boys have all learned that having an excuse about the past has no bearing on being excused in the future. Having an excuse doesn't mean it dictates towards decisions pertaining to tomorrow.) The boy could have used the excuse of a broken zipper to justify the Scout salute, or he could just rely on the basics that have always been around from the beginning, when in uniform salute with the Scout salute, when not, salute with the civilian salute. He didn't need the excuse, it's worthless anyway.(This message has been edited by jblake47)

This type of discussion always peaks my interest. One has a scout that is fired up about the program and there are a few concerned that he may burn out. Seriously people, how many people have ever burned out on having a good time? I kinda get a feeling that the two ASM's might be a bit jealous when it comes to their own kids. They have a couple of slugs that are plodding along and comparing them to a thoroughbred race horse chomping at the bit. It's going to be a lot easier to rein in the horse than spur on a slug. (Sorry for the extreme anology, but it does make the point.) Too often rank is viewed as comparable to an "award" rather than a level of training, and this causes way too much angst and wringing of hands. Let's use another analogy. One gets a new ASM on their team and this guy has just come out of Cubbing and is chomping at the bit to get going with the new boys of the troop. As a wise and aged SM, you council the gentleman to first get his YPT training out of the way. Yeah, Yeah, got that done last night, what's next, what's next! So the SM says why don't you wait a bit, practice what you've learned and then in a couple of months you can take the basic adult training. Sure, why not, but why can't I take it right now, maybe yesterday, huh? huh? So the SM calmly tell him that in his best interest they don't want him burning out by being too excited about the program. He reassures the new ASM that in about a year's time he'll have all the training and experience to start working with the boys. Yeah, right. This is going to work????!!!! As long as the boy is having a great time, reviewing his skills because he has already mastered them before getting into scouts, and doing what the book says he needs to do, why would anyone think it would be in his best interest to slow him down and bore him out of his skull? Give me a handful of boys like this and I'll revel in a whole patrol of 15 year old Eagles that are planning their next canoe trip to the Yukon! On the one hand one has some who are complaining about keeping the boys interested in the program and some who are complaining about boys that are too fired up about the program and are on the verge of burning out. One can't have it both ways! Sounds like the SM has a good handle on this boy's progress and is doing it right. Now if the two jealous ASM's quit bickering and plotting, this boy will do great things for the troop. If one has a boy destined and motivated to do leadership, get out of the way and let him do his thing. I have a boy right now that will finish FC in 8 months and has already signed on as a Wolf DC while a TFoot. He has two older brothers in the troop. One is Eagle (JASM, age 15), one is Star (PL/QM, age 14) and this young Tfoot (DC, age 11) is showing signs of being an even greater leader than either of his older two brothers. The father of these three boys is one of my ASM's and is himself an Eagle w/palms and SM experience. Whenever I ask him how his boys are doing, he always answers with a "I don't know, didn't ask them lately." Runintherain, you're son sounds like a spitfire of a scout. You are one lucky man. Stosh

Always go with what the book says and ignore everyone else's 2-cent worth of interpretation. If the book says overnight OR day-hike, then a day-hike is just fine. Of course it has to be a whole day-hike, like 6:00 am - 6:00 pm in order for the boy to get credit. Going out in the late morning with the boys, having a nice sandwich lunch in the woods and walking around looking for plants and animals and tossing a few stones in the nearby lake instead of hiking is not going to get proper credit for the hike. (And if you believe this you don't deserve being a Web DL.) Stosh

I've camped in the northern climes most of my life and year around. About the only thing I know about 4 season tents is there's some sort of frost thingy inside to control moisture somehow. With that being said, it is obvious I have never needed or even used one. One can do very nicely with 3 season tents in the dead of winter. The only problem is getting those flimsy wire stakes into the frozen ground. As a matter of fact I have a 4 season tarp for sale right now if you're interested. Put your money into a -20 sleeping bag and you'll do just fine even if you meadow crash where the meadow is buried under 2' of snow. Remember tents are waterproof and in the summer you want to keep the moisture OUT, in the winter with the dry outside air, the concept of the frost thingy is to collect moisture on the INSIDE of the tent because it doesn't have a way to dissipate away from the sleeper. Moisture is the evil in winter that bugs are in the summer. Basically tents offer very little if any real shelter during the winter. At best they are a windbreak and you don't need a tent for that a nice 4 season tarp would work well for that. (Did I mention I have a nice 4-season one for sale?) If the temps are heading sub-zero, it's best to build snow shelters because they can actually insulate the camper whereas a tent cannot. After 55 years of camping experience, I've never even considered buying a 4 season tent and never was curious enough to know the principles of why they are even rated as a 4 season tent. Stosh

If one cannot afford a uniform, then don't. It's not a requirement. However, don't put it half together thinking it's really a uniform. My boys know the routine. A couple of weeks ago one of the boys in my troop blew the zipper out on his uniform pants and so he wore blue jeans and the rest of his uniform. At flags he did not give the scout salute and instead put his hand over his heart. No one said a thing. Stosh

Kinda have to make an observation here..... There is THE uniform and then there is NOT a uniform. No one takes the field at a football game without THE uniform. No one marches in the band without THE uniform. To think that anything that is not a uniform really IS a uniform is fooling themselves because they aren't really fooling those who are in BSA and have an inspection sheet handy. If I wear a BSA uniform I wear THE uniform. When I don't I don't try and pretend by wearing a BSA camp t-shirt and fool myself into thinking it's some kind of an "Official Class B" thingy. Stosh

Quartermaster of Meals???? Sounds like a government job. Shouldn't it be Grubmaster? Stosh

Hmmm... $140 for a BS uniform comes to $20/yr. If he outgrows it he can trade up with an older boy for a bigger size. I can think of a lot of things I spend $20/year on.... When I was doing reenacting with the Venture Crew, the boys were investing $800-$900/outfit. That didn't include a $450 gun. The shoes alone were $90 and they weren't Nikes either. It's all relevant. I just read an article where a grade school cheerleader was kicked off the squad and the parents were upset. It surprised me that the uniform the little girl was expected to wear was over $150. My boys all wear full uniforms and there aren't any complaints because we use a lot of Ebay items when we can get them. There are some things I just can't get used to, like going to an ECOH last Sunday for a couple of boys and one wore blue jeans with a uniform shirt. The other boy went to National Jambo so he did show up with a full uniform. All the boys that showed up for the ECOH from that troop could easily be identified as to which ones went to Jambo and which ones didn't. It always amazes me how much a fuss the parents make when they spend $2000 for Jambo and get bent out of shape because their boys need TWO uniforms! The really sad thing is when I went out on a personal kayak trip this summer, I had difficulty finding suitable clothes for it. When I did come up with something I felt out of place because I wasn't wearing tan/green. Stosh

I'm thinking that there might not be enough international emphasis in BSA, but I can assure you it isn't universal amongst the troops. My boys have had the opportunity to meet exchange scouts at summer camp. By the way, the Indonesian scouts have a great uniform! Camo pants! Yep. Three shades of brown with the fleur-de-lis mixed into the camo pattern along with the sprouting coconut, the symbol of Indonesian scouts. The Dominican scout the previous year was female and the boys thought that was great too. A few years ago I heard too late that the Canadian national jamboree was being held less than 500 miles from us and we missed out. It would have been a great opportunity for my boys to have the chance to attend. I had the opportunity to campfire at national jamboree with boys from Barbados, Scotland and New Zealand. Best part of the American jamboree in my book! The Scotish lads were on their 3rd AMERICAN jamboree! They as a group have attended more American jamborees than American scouts! I'm thinking that a lot of what is not happening is not because of apathy or politics, in as much as it is a poor communication system between the different international factions of Scouting. It isn't really a priority for some. Why are the non-BSA scouts around the world more knowledgeable about our National jamboree than we are about theirs? Can that be corrected? Sure, but the effort has to be made by national to make it a priority and at the present time seems quite myopic at best in this area. Stosh

I've stayed out of this discussion for quite some time in order to sit back and take a look at the whole picture. What I see is: two different emphasis being promoted. One is the instruction of what to do and the other is why one would want to do it in the first place. If I'm out in the woods and cold, do I know what to do? Sure. Start a fire. Sounds simple because it is too simplistic. First of all the assumptions may all be wrong. Maybe just putting a coat on would solve the problem or maybe take a quick walk around to get the blood flowing. Why would you want to start a fire when there are other options out there for solving the "being cold" problem. Unless one knows why one is cold, maybe starting a fire might not be the right solution. Do we teach how or why? One of the qualities of leadership is evaluation and decision making. One cannot make the right decision if they build their evaluation on all the wrong assumptions. A military scout who is out beyond the front lines would probably take into consideration that starting a fire would be a rather stupid decision in his situation. Do we teach (EDGE) how over the initial lessons of why? If we look at the big picture, sometimes the individual solutions to the problem will eliminate many of the options right away and a more profitable solution can be decided on. This is the difference between leadership and management in my book. I can manage the situation with a quick fix, but it may be a poor leadership decision in the long run. I spend a lot of time teaching my boys more than just the skills. They have to know which skill (tool) to use at the appropriate time. Simply knowing one or two skills may not be sufficient. If I'm lost, building a signal fire in the middle of extremely dry area might not be the best choice no matter how effective I am in getting a fire going. This is the difference between managing the situation and making proper leadership decisions. I guess I don't want to be the scout that is found smack dab in the middle of 300,000 acres of burned out forest. When one spends all their time teaching skills and managing actions, one can easily see how important the real issue is: leadership, that process by which skills and management are properly used to effect a best solution to a problem and not just a quick fix solution that manages the situation in the short term. A FC scout should be able to start a fire, but an Eagle should know why. Stosh

one has to also be able to see the difference between teamwork and aspirations. No one "advances" in a group without beating out the competition and this contra-indicative of teamwork. The analogy holds true. If my boss doesn't show up for work and someone needs something for the operation of the business in his stead, I know who that person is depending on the problem. I don't have to take over his position, only direct the responsibility accordingly. As far as APL being a goof-off position, that is what it entails in a ton of troops out there. As a matter of fact with a strong SPL running the shows, the PL's often end up his assistants and tend to goof-off too. Then there's the real problem of adult-led programs where if the boys goof-off enough, the adults will run the show just to keep things going. It's not that I'm judging any POR on it's merits, I only judge the person wearing the patch on HIS merits. This is why there are no popularity elections for any POR in our troop. Scouts only hold the positions because they are doing the job. Stosh

Show me the money. If one wishes to know where the commitment lies, check the $$'s. Better grades means more scholarship ($$). Better grades means better jobs eventually ($$). There's no $$'s connected to maturity, leadership, honesty, etc. Need I go on? Stosh

Check with canoe rental/dealers in your area. They tend to dump their rental inventory every end of season and have new models for next year to rent in the spring. I picked up my kayak that way. My two aluminum canoes are from a rental place as well. Both beat up looking tough, but with a little duct tape, they'll float all day long. Try Ebay/Craigslist, etc. and don't pay for shipping! buy local. As far as aluminum only, you might want to do some research. Although I have two aluminums, I would prefer two plastics because they offer more opportunity for rough handling than do the aluminums. Stosh

I took over a WebI den and for two years ran the program twice. First time the boys got their pins etc. at the CS level. The second time through the requirements were "reviewed" and then we went on to the challenges of those requirements using the BS handbook. Readyman/First Aid, Swimming/Swimming, etc. In fact the boys basically earned AOL twice but the second time through it was a wee bit more challenging/exciting knowing they were doing "Boy Scout" stuff. (Our spring campout, was a mini-camporee where the WebII boys would get some idea of what a campout would be like, ran some competitions, did the meals, slept out, etc.) The boys did a "shake-out" backpacking trek. Got backpacks, loaded them up and went for an afternoon hike where we stopped and did a meal out in the woods on a fire they started, etc. We could have done it with a daypack, but the big boy packs with waist belts, etc. were a bigger sell. 90% of an adventure is in your head anyway. With this system, we wouldn't have any problems had any boy wanted to join "in the middle" of the program and still get his AOL. Stosh

I was in HS marching, concert, jazz and pep bands. Marching/concert band was for grade. In college I reduced that to marching, jazz and concert only, all of which was for grade. Of course it did not reflect solo and ensemble competitions either. But I was in Scouts, in photography club, Foreign Student club, drama club, rifle club, Latin Club, French Club, CAP, and a ton of other clubs and organizations, i.e. church youth group. I was involved in every drama production the school put on during my 4 years (Made National Thespians). According to my mom, I spent too much time in front of the TV. I didn't make Eagle, but I camped more back then than I do now (camped last weekend). Now I'm too busy... Stosh

Yep, keep those adults handy. It's the best way yet to make sure the boys follow along. Sorry, I'm all for leadership, not follower-ship. When my boys ask me questions (on their time table and as their needs dictate) I answer them and even make suggestions as to what they might want to consider in their deliberations on the matter. My boys "actively serve" and the final "test" is going to be their Board of Review! TEST? You can't re-test!!!!! Nope, but my BOR's are the boys' BOR's not some adult's commissioning board or approving body by which my boys are evaluated. My boys are trained up to go into a BOR with an agenda and brag about their accomplishments. What if they haven't done anything worth bragging about? They're in trouble. I had two Eagle candidates going before EBOR's on the same night. One boy did not take my suggestions and came in, did the requisite hoops the EBOR expected and then sat and answered questions. 14 questions were posed to him of which some of them he was prepared for and some he wasn't. He struggled and often times seem a bit uncomfortable if not embarrassed. The other boy came in, took charge of the EBOR, laid out his agenda and preceded to tell the Board all the great things he had done to get to this point in his life. The Board managed to squeak in 3 questions which he handled quickly and got back on his agenda for them. In this case, it was the Board that seemed a bit uncomfortable and embarrassed. Both candidates received their Eagle. As I mentioned before boys in my troop do not wear POR patches on their shirts unless they have proven themselves with a consistent track record. One boy wears CA, been doing it now at every event for almost 18 months. One boy wears JASM, Eagle scout who has proven he can handle any position in the troop effectively. Last Monday, my "popcorn chairman" gave a report on the Show-and-Sell project from the weekend and presented the schedule of future events coming up soon. He also warned them that the cubs were already in the neighborhoods beating them to the punch on sales. Popcorn Chairman is not a troop POR but ours is 13 years old (FC). A second boy asked if he could do the summer camp organization for the troop like he did last year. It involves registering, collecting money, and signing up MB's, etc. Summer Camp Coordinator is not a troop POR, but ours is 14 years old (Star). He had so much fun doing it last year he wanted to do it again this year. A third boy (TFoot) had asked the CM of the support Pack if he could be a DC. He had a meeting with the CM at the troop meeting last Monday night. He came prepared with his trained certificate ready to go. CM had a Wolf den in mind for him. The CM asked him how long he expected to serve and the boy said 12 months because that was necessary for the National DC Award. The CM was hoping for at least 9 months to getting the den through the school year. The CM knew that POR's are only required for 4-6 months and was worried about having the DC leave in the middle of the year. It was suggested to the TFoot that traditionally POR's were for 6 months, but the CM might expect more. The Tfoot told me he didn't need a POR for advancement and that the 12 month expectation for NDCA took precedent anyway. For all those who are aghast about a Tenderfoot serving as Den Chief, the boy approached me about the possibility and I was kind of dragging my feet about it (typical adult reaction). He said he took the training on-line, showed me his certificate and informed me he knew more about Cub Scouts (He's AOL) than Boy Scouts at the present time and felt he could do a better job for the Cubs than for the troop because of that. He said that a year from now when he has FC, he will be in a better position to take on a troop leadership position. Leadership means doing (serving) more than just following directions. Do this and do that, then you will be a leader. Nope! Get out front and lead, then you'll be a leader. Does it work? Sure! My new ASM, who just Eagled, having spent one week in summer camp as a boy in the troop and one week of summer camp as my ASM, received a job application from the camp director for employment next summer (same boy that "took charge" of his Eagle BOR). We aren't talking CIT here, but actual staff. Not bad for a young man who does his resume every day and doesn't need it on paper to be considered for future opportunities. Opportunities come looking for him. When it comes to training up new leaders amongst our young people, it's get in, get out, and then get out of the way. Stosh

Gotta love this level of paranoia. Everyone is so concerned about leaving minors alone to fend for themselves that it has gotten ridiculous. Prior to high school graduation my buddies and I camped without adult supervision all the time. We were all good woodsmen and could take care of ourselves. And that's the key. We knew what we were doing! The prevalent paranoia is heading onto a slippery slope and eventually will run headlong into Youth Protection issues. How can we continue to hold their hands at every turn and not run into YP problems? There is plenty of training in the BSA literature to insure our boys are properly prepared to go out and enjoy the woods sans-adults. Only those who are rushing through that training or not properly addressing the requirements will ever be affected by this paranoia. The boys by the time they are first class should be able to go out on their own. They have woodsman skills, first aid, camp life skills and have been trained. If not, one needs to go back and review this training and/or the troop's training program because something isn't right. In our society we have picked this magical number out of the air of 18 to say that the day before your 18th birthday you cannot go camping with the BSA alone, but the next day you can. What kind of training program is that? Stosh

Hmmmm....really good question.... I guess I don't see the APL a "learning experience". Otherwise ASPL would fall into that same category. I work as an administrative assistant for the general manager of an international business. I have only one job, and that's to make my boss look good. I make sure the details are covered and he is freed up to do his job without worrying about whether or not his back is covered. I'll take a good APL over a poor PL any day because in spite of a PL's inability to lead, a good APL will still make it happen for the patrol. I take an opportunity for all my older boys to NOT take a POR and still try and lead. A coach makes no plays on the field, a band director makes no noise in a concert, the drivers' ed teacher sits in the passenger seat. Yet they are all considered "leaders". What is it that they know that we don't! A good APL is priceless and if he is in fact working so hard at making his sorry excuse of a PL look good, when it comes to advancement he will be considered having been the PL for the advancement time period. Hint: the SPL that makes all of his PL's look good in the troop will be far more likely to demonstrate true leadership than the SPL that dictates and delegates to them. He's going to be more successful in the long run, too. If APL is viewed by everyone as a goof-off, learning POR, then they are truly not making the most of a great opportunity for some of the better scouts. Stosh

Bands are adult led, not boy led. If the band director says be there or your grade will take a hit, the boy follows along like a puppy on a leash. A boy led program is viewed in today's society like a gang, which of course BP said it was, but with the negative connotation to the word gang, it's going to take a hit from parents, teachers, community leaders, (i.e. any adult led endeavor). If adults can't control the program, then it cannot not be a good thing. These immature gangsters would turn into hardened criminals without the directing hand of an adult to old the leash. Why not compare a gang with Scouting. Today's adults would hit the ceiling, BP would say, "Yep, that's the goal!" Once your pulse returns to normal you may resume your normal activities. Stosh