Stosh

acco40 is exactly right. If we don't like the rules, we are to petition to change them in an orderly manner. Now, I say that as the company policy. However, when I have a boy who has waited a month for the committee to come up with enough registered MC's to hold a BOR only to have a room full of parents and turn him down because Joe got sick at the last minute and we'll need to reschedule, I get a wee bit upset. It's not the boy's fault, and he does need to learn a lesson on disappointment, etc. but this isn't the time or place for that. When the adults don't hold up their end of the deal and are not trustworthy, I think it's okay they do what it takes to make it work. If it's not quite kosher, so be it. Two MC's and grab a parent and get it done. Like everyone else the parent learns by doing and maybe at the end of the BOR the parent can sign up as a MC so that this problem doesn't happen again. I'm not recommending this process as a recruiting tool for the committee, but the committee needs to be functional to be supportive of the boys. If it isn't trustworthy, maybe a review of what is important to show the boys needs to be addressed. Stosh

Like school, church and family, scouts tend to be there for the boys with a worthwhile program for all of them during their developmental years. Sports, music, etc. cater to a few during certain times of their lives. T-Ball through Varsity for baseball, but the kids come and go according to their ability. All these programs offer a ton of opportunities and are flexible as the boys mature through the years. And like school, church and family, scouting can continue on throughout the life of the individual. The schools may change, the churches may change, the family changes, troops change, but the underlying dynamic stays the same. One of the strongest assets of the scouting program is it's ability to be there for all boys throughout their lives. It's tough getting 10 70 year olds together for a bit of scrimmage bball. But 10 old scouters can still pack it up and head out into the woods. I'm thinking today's BSA doesn't really take itself seriously and is often times more focused on numbers, $$'s, etc. and leaving the real value up to whoever us running a unit. As long as the unit has the numbers, sends in the registration, makes a stab at popcorn, schedules a FOS, then the councils are happy. Stosh

moosetracker: "All I am stating is they run different programs. At the time when Kudu told Jblake he was running his program wrong, because he had a troop committee and he should not, I did not see how Kudu could tell other people they are running their troops wrong by following the current BSA policies.. I did not realize it was both of them were looking to run troops built on the 1912 philosophy.." I missed the part where Kudu told me I was "wrong" for having a committee. Even though I like a ton of what Kudu has to say, my boys still have the final say-so in certain areas. However, in order to even exist at all as a unit, BSA requires a committee. So I have an agreement with my old CC and now my new CC. You work with the adults and keep them informed and in line with what we are doing, run interference with anything from outside that will interfere with the boys, and watch my 6. So in my case my committee is a good thing. They entertain the adults while I work with the boys. Functionally all registered adults are support personnel in the troop. If some boy needs help, we provide it. We don't do anything unless asked to help. Our troop structure is not what is taught by BSA but our boys prefer it because it requires more leadership on the part of the boys. The PL is the highest ranking authority in the patrol and there are NO troop officers "over" them, they only support as would an adult. If one of the PL's were to be elected, selected, asked, fill-in the SPL spot, it would not be a step UP anywhere, it would be a step DOWN into a support role for the other PL's. So Kudu does it his way and others do it other ways and like everyone else I pick and choose everything and give it to my boys to consider for the functionality of their troop. If the boys like a lot of Kudu's ideas, we go that route. If they didn't we'd be looking a lot more like the traditional troops of today. My boys can't seem to get enough of the old ways, at least at this point in time. If 99.9% of the restaurants in my town had "drive thru's" and the only place in town that had sit down, metal silverware and china plates seemed to still draw in a few loyal, historians, and that restaurant could continue to turn a profit, it will survive. Are they wrong for not updating their menu and customer service? To some, yes, it's time to get with the program and conform to the 21st. Century! Oops, Yes you can clear the dirty dishes, and a warm-up splash would be nice. Now, what were we talking about? Oh, yes, dinner in a paper bag...... Stosh

Okay, laser printers really are great, ink jet does pretty good, 9-pin and 24-pin were a major step up at one point, but does anyone remember the old chain printers that needed soundproof boxes to be tolerated in a room on the other end of the building? Word Processesing programs so powerful you could embed your own format codes for bolding, underlining, and such. Fonts beyond pica and elite were still pie in the sky. I remember the day I tossed the cassette player and replaced it with a 5.25 floppy! That was a banner day, even more exciting than replacing the punch cards with the cassette. And yes, I have a networked machine that can still read the 5.25's. Or the big dilemma of whether to get single or going the extra cost of HD 3.5's. And yes, Beta was better than VHS. 8-tracks better than cassettes and nothing could beat a good vinyl. One phone that hung in the kitchen? How did that work? Going over to the neighbors to watch the game in color on their 24" console! TV Guide always indicated which programs were in color so you could put it on your wall calendar and not miss it. Gas stoves that lit with a pilot light? And for us early Boomers, rotary dial, and for the small town/rural Boomers, all you needed to do is crank and tell the operator who you wanted and she knew the number for you. Remember the button rotary phones that let you push a button that would tick off the number of clicks instead of spinning the dial? Most Gen Y's/Millenials have no idea what life was like with no TV, Computer, Cell Phone, Microwave, fast food, pizza, SUV/Minivans, or stay at home mom's. But then again every generation thinks it grew up in the Golden Age of America. That may be a good thing. Maybe not. Yellowstone used to have bears, having a boat meant it came with oars and a small motor if you were lucky. Boys used to make boats, not buy them. We didn't need keys to the car, we had our bikes. Fishing meant a cane pole, line, hooks and a can of corn. Maybe your buddy would bring a trowel to dig up a few worms if you wanted some. Maybe today's generation speaks an entirely different "language" than the others, but why do so many of them continually ask to know more about what it was like, "way back then."? I remember when we used to carry matches, flashlight and signal mirror in case we got lost in the woods. Now kids carry cell phones in case they get lost at the mall. Maybe I should do a 1960's reenactment sometime. Maybe instead of donating my body to science after I die, I should consider a museum instead. Yet, because of scouting, the next generation knows about dutch oven cooking just like their pioneer relatives did. It's nice to know some things just don't have to change... Stosh

Hey, Shortridge! I'm a Boomer! I've been outdated for a long time! However, I do have a personal website, I'm on Facebook, can program in basic, C, C++, Fortran, Cobol, know my way around Microsoft and OpenSystems, and have Debian Linix on my machine at home. Best operating system ever invited: OpenVMS. Sad to say my old C/PM system is gone as well as my OS-2, but my Radio Shack Coco with floppy drive and C-compiler still works just fine. SuperCalc anyone? How about DOS 1.0 I was doing video chats way back in the days of ICU. I may know more about computers than the average kid, but I can also cook them under the table on an open campfire too. Age and treachery will win out over youth and exuberance any day!!!! Stosh

I know the Medal of Honor doesn't fit in the same category as a Scot's tartan, but to a certain degree wearing something usually indicates some kind of honoring of it. Even the blue-jean generation needed it's jeans to be correct. Riding a Harley with dress pants just seems to be a bit offensive. I think a BSA tartan would be a great idea, it harkens back to the original intent of they will know who we are by the color we wear. Although I can wear the Melville tartan, I never have except as a dress tie, and every time I put on a piece of clothing with a tartan pattern, I wonder who's family this is from. Stuart is one of the more common, but there are others. Sometimes simply remembering is a strong form of honoring. Stosh

Yep, we do it a bit different. The new CC called her first committee meeting. She talked to me about having a SM report of the program and it's goals/aims and where we stand with that. She also asked permission to approach the SPL for a report from the boys. I figured she could relay her expectation without me as a middle man and said that would be fine. She asked the treasurer to be on hand to give a full accounting of where we stood as a troop financially. Every parent was invited to attend and offer input if they wished to do so. Every scout was invited to attend and offer input if they wished to do so. Everyone had their marching orders. It wasn't any witch hunt kind of thingy, she was genuinely interested in where we stood as a troop as she took over the reins from a CC that had held that post for at least 3 years and was SM before that. She came prepared with adult applications for any new adult volunteers and had MB sign up sheets for those parents who felt capable to doing MB's for the troop. She took copious notes and didn't interrupt anyone making a presentation or comment. I'm thinking that the only one who didn't come prepared was the SPL who felt he might be able to wing it at the last minute. He guessed wrong, that's all. I'm thinking he won't make that mistake next time. The treasurer got a whole litany of questions about how the funds are handled, how the popcorn sale was going, how they handled education costs for adults, who paid for what, individual scout account system, etc. etc. The treasurer had precise and explicit answers for all the questions. The SM got his questions too. Why Boy-Led, Patrol-Method? Why full uniforms? Are the boys all trained for their positions. What are the ranks and levels of expertise for each of the boys, are they progressing according to their abilities, etc. What POR does each boy have, when's the next COH, etc. etc. I had to do some light quick-stepping here and there too. I'm just thinking everyone but the SPL was taking this meeting very seriously. "In a truly Boy Led troop the SPL would have more control over the checkbook and not have to justify to some CC that the troop needs stoves. That's a program issue between him and the SM." First of all we don't have a standing SPL, this is the PL of the one patrol we have, as soon as we recruit two more boys, we will be back at 2 patrol strength. I don't foresee a standing SPL until we get up around 4 patrols and need a full-time PLC. Usually the boy that is doing PL just steps up when some adult asks for an SPL. They could have just as easily asked for the PL if there was only one patrol. If there had been two patrols, I'm thinking with her philosophy and mine being so similar she would have invited both PL's and requested two reports, one from each patrol. Nope, the QUARTERMASTER doesn't need to justify anything to the committee, but a careful study of troop equipment needs would allow the committee to decide okay, we need stoves, tents and flies. We have enough for 2 of the 3, and might have to send the QM proposal back to see if he can adjust the numbers to fit the amount of money in the bank. The committee doesn't decide whether or not the purchase is going to be made, so the QM isn't looking for any adult approval, just adult support in getting the equipment paid for in an appropriate manner. They might toss in some suggestions as to waiting for the tents to go on sale at the end of summer, etc. And no, the SM is not involved in the equipment of the patrols/troop. The QM and committee treasurer work that out without the SM's interference. "Some of us think maybe the SPL getting chewed out by the CC may have been a little harsh, but JBlake (who is either SM or ASM not sure).. Was perfectly fine with it, meaning we don't have the complete background story, or their troop has a different set of expectations and runs a little differently then ours would." I'm the SM. And to a certain degree I got a bit of marching orders to get this troop moving forward, too. One has to remember this CC is a mom of one of our boys and is very soft-spoken but doesn't fluff anything up. It's straight forward and lay your cards on the table. Don't have any cards? Why not?! She does it rather quietly and along with the "Mom Stare", it's unnerving even to me. I walked out of the meeting thinking about the adage: "If Mom ain't happy, nobody's happy!" "Kudo - Everyone runs a different program. Yours is different because it is living in the past and in many ways going against current BSA policy.. You can not expect everyone to follow your ideas and buck the system." Nope, but I'm kinda a lot in Kudu's camp because the ideas he proposes work for my boys. Along with TLT, they have all completed the Green Bar Bill materials and prefer it over the new stuff. Living in the past, outdated, buck the system, etc. I don't care, because if that's what the boys want and it works for them, we go that route. It must be working, I've got two Eagles through the program, one Life Scout with special needs working on his project, and my chewed up/spit out "SPL" turning Life at the end of next month and will be starting his Eagle project at age 14. Not bad for only my 3rd year as SM. All the boys currently in the troop crossed over or transferred in because of the way we do boy-led, patrol-method. We've lost a lot of boys that didn't want to work very hard at scouting to the other troop and missed out on 40+ Webelos cross-overs the past 3 years because parents want an adult-led program for their boys. Does it work? One of my Eagles is aged out and is currently an active ASM and the other boy is only 16 and is still in the troop working with the boys and their projects as a JASM. My lousy HS program isn't really all that lousy. Stosh

I was rather put out by Mr. Mazzuca's little story at Jambo this past summer. It would seem that he had to travel in his uniform for some reason and was surprised by how many people recognized it and commented and opened up a conversation about it, etc. etc. Huh? Why did our chief scout not know this? Why didn't he wear the uniform all the time? If it's a such a great thing, why is it in the suitcase and not worn? At Jambo I wore the 1910 uniform, but also the 1960's uniform at various times. I was surprised at the number of YOUTH that would like to see the '60's uniform come back!!!!! A scout uniform is an icon of the program. Stop and think about it. When you see the Stars and Stripes you think of the United States. You think of a maple leaf...? yep, Canada. You see a uniform? Well it could be police, fire, military, etc. but if you put a neckerchief with it.... Yep, BSA, no question about it. Show me a kid in blue jeans and t-shirt and I'll show you the average kid out there and that's about it. Stosh

If one is going to give someone responsibility to do a job, they must also give them the authority to do it. An adult-led program will give responsibility to do something and retain the ultimate authority. This creates good followers, but until the authority is also given to the boys, they will never develop leadership. Just watch a "boy-led" program and if someone needs some help who do they go to? The SM? an ASM? .... Usually the last person they seek help from is their PL because the boys all know he doesn't have the final say-so in anything anyway. Any SM who has to say, "Go talk to your PL" is admitting out loud that they have totally failed in setting up any leadership amongst the boys. Like the "money trail", when it comes to leadership, look at the "authority trail." "YOU CAN'T LET THE BOYS JUST DO WHAT THEY WANT!!!!" Why not, that's true leadership. If one has trained them up in the ways of BSA, one shouldn't have any concerns about turning the reins over to them and let them go off and do something like real leadership, maybe a patrol outing without adults. (insert gasp! here) A scout is trustworthy, but not many SM's can trust their best boys with total authority! Maybe it's time we actually let our boys live by the Scout Oath and Law so that they can honestly get that requirement checked off. I had an interesting troop committee meeting last night. New CC called everyone together. When it came time for the SPL to make a report from the boy's perspective on the program, he didn't have anything. The CC tore into him full force! Basically, you have let down your buddies by not coming prepared. We went on and when it came to what the boys are planning to do in the next year, the SPL didn't have the calendar filled out ready to go. Well, he then got the other barrel from the CC. We went on with the treasurer's report (while the CC reloaded the double barrel) He then asked the SPL for the QM report and wanted to know what equipment the troop was short of. The SPL hemmed and hawed a bit and said maybe two stoves. At which time the CC asked white gas or propane? wanted a cost breakdown, and usage costs. (all this info had been made available to him over the course of last year) He couldn't remember.... The CC told him he had 2 weeks to come up with a cost proposal in detail for tents and stoves for the troop and presented to the treasurer for the committee's consideration. Her final shot was she expected to have a proposal for some kind of high adventure trip next summer for the older boys besides summer camp. The older boys had a month to make their wishes known in writing to the committee. The boy finally got to the snapping point and basically said that the boys didn't really want to be doing all this kind of planning, studying and making reports because some adult is going to go and change it all anyway. There was a long and painful pause after which the CC said very quietly, This troop is a boy-led, patrol-method troop. The quicker you figure that out and start running your own show the less likely you'll have a bad day at a troop committee meeting because every adult in this room is in agreement that you are to run the program, so you had better start doing so. If you have any questions on how this is done, talk with your SM and quit wasting everyone's time. I really think now that one of the reasons the boys have been reluctant to be boy-led is not because they didn't know what to do, but because they didn't really trust the adults to give them the authority along with the responsibility to run the program themselves. I'm hoping my CC clarified it a bit for the boys last night. Stosh

Well, the categories might be silly, they might not apply, etc. etc. But... http://www.sciinfo.com/resources/generational_diversity.html http://www.austin-tmc.org/event-archive/managing-generational-diversity They are accepted sociological groupings that have been around for some time. It's not something I made up, I'm not that smart. However, others have, they are addressing it widely in a variety of different settings, especially business/management, but the dynamics of such cultural differences and all I was bringing up is how do those differences affect the BSA program? Sure broad generalizations aren't always helpful in specific situations, but an understanding that the youth of today did NOT grow up in the world we knew when we grew up! etc. I dated face to face with girls. Today with email, text messaging, chat rooms, match.com, etc. etc. people "date" electronically. Gen Y people have difficulty with interpersonal relationships, especially conflict situations, because they lack experience with talking to other people face to face. Gossip used to go over the backyard fence, now it is spammed out in e-mail at the speed of light. So how does one get a boy interested in grass and trees when all he's known is keyboards and monitors? It won't be long before the next generation figures out how to do a virtual Philmont trek. The issue I was addressing is with the life-style of today's BSA personnel, one can actually interact with as many as 4 different generations rather than maybe the historical 2 or 3. Parent/child of the pioneer generations. Grandparent/parent/child, and now due to the health improvements and longer age expectancy we have Grgrandparent/grandparent/parent/child interaction in scouts. I have hadn't any gr-grandparent/child relationships in Boy Scouts, but there's nothing in the book that says a gr-grandparent can't be a tiger cub "parent". We have had evidence of grandparent/child in an ever increasing number. Do you as SM/CM need to know how to relate to different generations now more than one did in the past? If your troop/pack is in political turmoil does everyone play by the same rules? etc. I am seeing more and more of this type of thing coming into play in our area. Kid is getting his Eagle, dad has had expectations different than kid, grandfather has an even different set of expectations than either the dad or the kid. Have fun sorting that one out.... Stosh

Get your COH and DE involved, they need to know what is going on. A Cub can "skip a rank". It depends on their school class and age. Scout application dictates this. If for some reason a boy does need to repeat a grade he can use his age to determine level of scouting. If he comes into Tigers having been held back because of his schooling his school class and age might be almost a whole year different than his classmates. I have a September birthday. I went away to college at age 17. My daughter has a September birthday. She turned 18 at the beginning of her senior year and turned 19 soon after going to college. Did my daughter flunk a grade? Nope, we decided to have our kids get an extra year at home before school started for them. My daughter could thus read at a 2nd grade level in kindergarten and graduated Valedictorian of her high school class. Although birthdays only 3 days apart on the calendar we attended school a whole year apart relative to each other. A boy in her situation could have started Boy Scouts a whole year earlier than I did if you measured by age instead of grade level. I was lousy at math, so I hope it makes sense to everyone. Stosh

I kinda hijacked another thread with a topic but got to thinking it might be something to consider on its own merit. How readily to the different generations cooperate in the world of scouting today? 1) There are the Traditional generation of those who grew up and although quite rare still hang in there doing scouting. 2) Then there's the Baby Boomer generation of what would be many of the old guys out there still quite active in scouting. 3) The Gen X crowd had Boomer parents with little structure and "do your own thing" emblazoned on everything. This is the 70's and 80's. (parents of today's boys) 4) Finally the Millennial generation (Gen Y) where one has the hover parent, fear of litigation and computer savvy and just about everything foreign to the way others think or have experienced. I'm a Boomer that grew up in a world far different than the boys I have today and I've worked with Gen X/Y kids all my life and find it quite difficult to comprehend a lot of the attitudes and expectations tossed onto scouting the past few years. I used to think my folks were old-fashioned, but we saw the merits of such dynamics although wouldn't admit it in front of our peers. Is that still the case today? Are the Boomers out of touch? Are Gen X'ers totally without structure and have Gen Y'ers been self-esteem stroked so much that they really do believe they are God's gift to the world and can do no wrong? Stosh

Hmmm, let's look at it another way. 1) Hand saluting the flag while in uniform respects both the flag and the uniform. 2) Heart saluting the flag while not in uniform respects the flag and there is no uniform to honor. 3) Hand saluting the flag while not in uniform as a veteran respects the flag and honors the veteran for his service. So, where's the respect due anyone or anything while in half-uniform? Maybe in this day and age doing things half-way is good enough. It wasn't in my day, but that's the bane of those of us who were taught that in spite of everyone not stroking our self-esteem, there just are somethings that might be wrong. Sorry to burst one's bubble, but a half-uniform doesn't cut it as a full-uniform. For those who find this difficult to experience, just send me your name and self-addressed stamped envelop (if you don't know what that is, I'll understand) and I'll send you a star for your, "That's the way life is... adjust!" chart. I might even have a few old charts of my own I could send you. I've collected up a ton over the years. Stosh

Gee, the most common knot I tie is the double slip granny. All this discussion on knots and I got to looking really close and dang, been doing it wrong since kindergarten. Stosh

It's my personal opinion that BSA does away with the inspection sheets because no one respects them anyway. It's my personal opinion that everyone can decide what they want for a uniform. It's my personal opinion that even though everyone looks different we still say they are uniformed. It's my personal opinion that there can be hundreds of different uniforms as long as somewhere there's a fleu-de-lis affixed to any one of the various articles of clothing. It's my personal opinion that even though I forgot to wear my troop designed uniform I can still salute to show my honoring the spirit of the rules. It's my personal opinion that because I sewed one official BSA button on my tan dress shirt that I can count it as a uniform shirt. It's my personal opinion that I have patch magic-ed my patches wherever I want, it'll ruin my shirt to move them, so I get to leave them wherever they are, right or wrong. It's my opinion that scouts do away with the idea of having an uniform in the first place because the other kids at school think it's dorky anyway. It's my opinion that adults no wear uniforms because they only do it to appease their egos, anyway. Ever wonder why we have so many excuses to not wear the uniform right and very few excuses to do so? Wearing appropriate clothing for the occasion is not just military. Wearing a tux with blue jeans to prom might not be as outlandish as it once was, but then why not wear blue jeans with your marching band outfit and save the taxpayers a bit of property tax along the way. After all, all you need in an instrument to be in the band, everything else isn't as important. Stosh

sailingpj, I'm thinking that the "errors" one finds during BOR's is just a cop out. I'm thinking that following a BOR the SM getting feedback on why the boy didn't pass, etc. are all bogus. Two requirements for advancement are have a SM conference and complete a BOR. Okay, what SM sends a boy off to a BOR without making sure ever "i" is dotted and ever "t" is crossed? If this is the case then the SM needs to be brought before the Board and asked why are boys coming into the BOR unprepared and incomplete? A Board that grills the boy after the SM has done his job isn't playing by the rules either. Any time either of these two issues surface it doesn't appear to be the boy's fault!!! Either the SM is setting him up to fail before the Board or the Board is failing him because he wasn't prepared for the questions. It's time the Board and SM work out a process that works for the troop! If I as SM know I have a hard-nosed Board, I'm going to work that much harder on making sure the boy is fully armed and armored for them. If I am a CC and have a SM that is sending his boys up to the Board with only half their requirements done, I'm going to be riding that SM on a regular basis. Then as a SM and/or Board there might be times I randomly pick out a scout and sit them down, knowing full well they are not ready for rank advancement and simply inquire: "How's it going for you? Let's review where you are on your next rank advancement." Sure, the BOR is "not complete", but the boy doesn't "Fail" anything either. A boy that "fails" a BOR is a victim of adults that don't have their act together. The petty politics that occur are more likely than not be based in the adult's hangups than with the boys. These two requirements are part of the adult association that is necessary for every scout. In your troop, do they help or harm? I don't worry about feedback, I know what will occur when my boys go into a BOR. I had a SMC with them. If I want feedback and it was important, the Board will pass it along. No news is good news. If I have a boy that can't tie a certain knot and he knows it, I may toss him under the bus and let a board member know this. All he has to do is have a SMC to find this out. It's not something he passes but he might get a chewing out for not being prepared, it is suggested he work on the requirement to perfect it. If he goes into the Board and he still can't tie the knot, they chew him out too, then the next time I won't be in such a hurry to sign off on his advancement, he knows he has to step up to make it work. I had a boy that needed POR and asked if he could recruit a patrol from the new Webelos boys that would cross over soon. I figured it would be a good idea, said yes, and the boy did absolutely nothing to be or do anything PL during this 6 months. He didn't even bother to collect the names of the AOL crossovers so he could welcome them into our troop. None of them ever came. It was a total disaster and at the SMC he told me that he had the patch to prove he served as a PL. He then informed me he had now had his SMC and would be lining up his BOR in the next week. Yep, I tossed him under the bus. When the BOR got around to his POR, he had nothing to tell them. The CC informed me he would wait a full 60 seconds of silence. So, what POR did you do? "PL" And how did that work out for you? "Fine" Fine? What did you do? (60 seconds of silence) Surely you must have done something as a PL. (60 seconds of silence). Did you enjoy doing the PL stuff? (60 seconds of silence), etc. 60 seconds of silence is a VERY long time at that age, any age for that matter. My CC did an excellent job on supporting me, the SM, in this process. The next rank SMC, I asked him what he was going to tell the BOR about his POR. He had a list a mile long. He took on PL for the patrol that existed and actually did the job, he did QM inventory of all troop assets, organized everything for the boys to get to summer camp and then served as SPL for it, helped his brother on his Eagle project by taking on one of the work crews, etc. etc. etc. They had to politely interrupt him so they could go on with the rest of the BOR. He passed both the SMC and BOR both times, but how it was handled was very different. Stosh

My first gut reaction would be to smile nicely and slowly back out of the room. "Tonight his father came by our troop meeting to talk about THEIR transfer back to our troop as soon as HE finishes his Eagle in the other troop." Sometimes the words say more than you think they do. When the transfer happens, I'm thinking the whole circus is returning. Then being a stand alone paragraph, we start out talking about the father stopping by, so I'm assuming the "HE finishes HIS Eagle" is referring to the father as well?????? I'm thinking this discussion is really moot. The boy only wants to get his Eagle. Sounds like he and his parents may have worn out their welcome over there or he wouldn't be back trying to recruit project help from a troop that a year ago wasn't necessary. It's too late in the game to take on a third troop, so troop #1 becomes a better target. Come back, toss out a little flattery about how good your troop is (well it sucked last year when we left.) This is nonsense. NOBODY out there is good enough for their little boy. I'm thinking this family spent the whole time in your troop bad mouthing your troop. Once they transferred and they didn't get the Camelot they thought they deserved, the bad mouthing got going again. And somehow you really think that coming back to your troop is going to rectify this???? A scout does not need to "recruit" Eagle project help from any troop. He can do his whole project with the assistance of his friends, the group he's doing the project for, other service organizations, etc. So schmoozing your troop by dangling the "I'll come back when I get my Eagle," isn't necessary and taking him back to reintroduce the hassles you had before is going to be a problem. If everyone gave a sigh of relief when they left, what damage are you going to do to them when the flood gates come back? All I see is the writing on the wall. This scout has serious leadership and image problems but once he gets his Eagle he can come back and rest on that for a nice position of authority and running the show of the troop. Once that doesn't happen, he'll just quit and the problem will finally go away permanently but not without a fabulous swan song that will harm your troop in the process. As a SM, I would politely decline to sign the transfer. It's not like you're keeping him out of scouting, he's already in a troop. As far as your boys helping him with his project, that would be great. If a scout is having difficulty, then roll up your sleeves and help other people at all times. There comes a time when one has to decide, the fate of an individual over the fate of the group. There's a straw for every camel's back and by taking on one more scout too many, the whole program and all the good work for others would/could be destroyed by the antics of just one. Just my 2-cents worth, your mileage may vary. Stosh

It's easier to follow along with a job description than it is to get out in front and lead. If everyone has to have a job title to follow along with, then I would suggest a bit more leadership training or everyone's going to not do anything until they are told to do it. This is the problem with management. There's a task to be done and some manager gets told what the task is. They tell someone to do it and thus it gets done. Ever notice that as the directive comes from top down, everyone follows, no one leads. Sure the problems/tasks are managed, but there's really no leadership going on in the process. Every time I hear people needing job descriptions, it's time for a leadership training opportunity. All they are saying is that they need some to tell them what to do. "I'm wanting to follow something because I have no idea how to lead!" This is why adult-led programs run so smoothly and boy-led don't. Stosh

One thing about the non-class structured Colonial Yankees have forgotten over the years is that the Old World still operates on a different set of long honored traditions than they do. Family and/or Clan designations are for those who are of the family or clan. Although I am 100% American I did take the time to properly, genealogically prove my family line and am thus certified to wear the Melville tartan. Would I wear another family's tartan? Not without insulting them. I take it very seriously that a small piece of the McLaren tartan is on my WB scarf to show an honorable brotherhood to the family. However, to think it proper to usurp the family tartan just because you can, doesn't show much scouting honor in the process. I wouldn't want my daughters to sign up for Daughters of the American Revolution unless it could be proven, which has been done and they could join. I wouldn't presume it was appropriate to portray myself as a Son of a Union Veteran unless I had proof of that lineage, which I do. I would not for one second presume to wear a Congressional Medal of Honor if it hadn't been awarded to me. If there is nothing honorable in the process, then I don't suppose it's any big deal for a foreigner to make a dress out of a US flag, because to them it may be nothing more than a pretty piece of decorative cloth. On my honor.... Ever wonder why the whole WB scarf isn't the McLaren tartan? Why just a small piece? For those who may wish the information: The kilt worn as part of a military uniform was not for show or to impress those around, but so that when that soldier was killed, those cleaning up the battlefields afterward would be able to get the right bodies back to the right family. Irish fisherman's knit sweaters were so that when a body washed up on the shores somewhere, one could tell by the pattern which family to notify and come get the body. Long and honorable traditions mean something to some people, and for others, it's getting someone else's kilt so they can show off what they think is a cool uniform. Well, it just doesn't set well with me. I'm happy with the honor given to me by the McLaren family to wear a small bit of their tartan. I wouldn't assume or presume any more than what is offered. Maybe it's a bit like Halloween. Being offered a piece of candy isn't the same as taking the whole bowl. One has to give respect in order to expect any back. By the way the Melville tartan isn't very pretty, wide blue and green with thin black and white. One doesn't get to pick family. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

This subject always kinda sticks in my craw. This is a Board of Review. Board: meaning group of people, who review: look again... at a boy's progress in scouting. Are they there to decide anything? NO, just review. Are they to draw any conclusions and/or restrict or require anything more than what is being reviewed? NO, just review. Do they need expertise in every aspect of scouting to sit and go through with the boy and get a second chance to re-see the boy's progress and re-identify/clarify his goals? No, just review. NOWHERE do I see it written that the boy needs to "pass" a BOR, only COMPLETE it. Any adult whether registered or not who feels they are passing judgment on this boy as to whether or not he qualifies for the rank simply should not be sitting on it in the first place. I would much rather have Joe Average from down the street come in, sit on a Board and have him ask my scouts to tell him what they've done and learned because he knows nothing about scouting than have an adult say to some boy he didn't "pass!" All this tells me is to what extend a troop has become adult-led, adult-controlled and adult-manipultated. When it comes to selecting members for the board, I hope there is more going into the process than just checking out some paper pedigree of registration to think for a moment this makes anyone qualified to do a BOR. I'm thinking that maybe a judge or lawyer be on each BOR to make sure that when the boy passes his "boards" he's qualified, certified and documented as such by the proper people in authority. If any of this even causes a slight twinge of one's nerves, it might be a good time to do a board of review on your board of reviews. Just remember that when a scout goes before a group of adults to review his scouting efforts it is HIS BOR, not theirs! I always train up my boys that when they go into THEIR BOR, either they can 1) come prepared to let these folks know all the things you have done in scouting since the last BOR and what you plan on doing before the next BOR, or 2) they can walk in and wing-it and try and field all the questions these people can think up to ask because you're not telling them anything. Most of my boys try and go for option #1. Stosh

I would agree that most troops run an excellent middle school program and lousy high school program. One of the big reasons for this is because adult-led programs work better for the middle school scouts. Boy-led encourages the boys of the high school level. So, depending on whether you are boy or adult led determines which program does better in each troop. There are not many troops that can actually transition WITH the boys. Boy-led older boy troops do poorly with attracting new scouts who need to be getting up to speed to "get in on the fun". Adult-led younger boy troops seem to be a wee bit extensions of Webelos with a challenge rather than the foundation of a whole different scouting experience from Cubs. When the boys mature a bit they drop out because it is no longer relevant to be an 8th grader when you're a junior in high school. So, how do you transition your troop? Run two programs at the same time! and keep them separated for the most part, but it doesn't have to be exclusive in nature like a Venture Patrol or worse yet, and whole different exclusion like starting a Venturing Crew. We often spend so much time on the structure we forget for whom it is intended. Last Monday, I read a brochure from our council letting us know they had two treks for Philmont in 2012. I told the boys here's an opportunity for them to think about. I then tossed the paper on the table and walked away. I noticed on the Website on Thursday that two other troops in the council got the spots, but that our boys are signed up for a trek in 2013. I have no idea who did the footwork on that, but it wasn't any adult. I couldn't pull that off in a group of pre-FC scouts. I would have had to do most of the phone calls and arrangements, or at least walked some of the boys through it as part of training. So, do I treat my boys all the same? Never! I run two programs within my troop, one for older boys and one for the new guys. It does work and those boys who transition over are quickly assimilated into the older boy program and greater challenges of responsibility, along with greater opportunities. Oh! What about the older boys teaching the new boys their skills? If one had a Venturing Crew of kids, would you even think about having them come in every week to teach scout skills to the TF? Never going to happen. If one had a Venture Patrol, would they teach the TF's? So, can one have a program for the older boys without having to slap on some artificial label to make it sound appealing to the older boys? Yes you can. Just follow the BSA process of taking in the new guys, training them up and getting them out on their own in independency as quick as they are able to handle it. What would you say to a group of 16-17 year old boys who said they wanted to go to summer camp, but not sign up for any MB's, camp by themselves, hang out all day and 3/4th of the night around a campfire, do some fishing, spend too much time at the climbing wall and shooting range, and maybe go off for a day or so on a canoe trip by themselves? Most SM's would toss out the idea with a NO right away. Some SM's would want to talk about it in order to talk the boys out of it, but very few would say, "I like that idea. Sounds like fun, keep me in the loop." But if a group of 12-13 year old boys asked the same thing, they're going to get a flat out NO from me without a bit of hesitation. No two boys can be treated the same in the troop. The troop's program needs to be flexible to meet the needs of all the scouts, not just those that are easiest to deal with. Stosh

Thanks Dances, I was about to bring up the Drum Corps issue. Anyone ever wonder where the Madison Scouts Drum Corps originated as? They have competed all over the US for many years. Our local Drum Corps competes nationally as well and it is made up of members from ALL the high school bands in the area, even as far as 50 miles away. To say it is impossible for scouts to compete against high school bands with a totally different program hasn't seen how drum corps can compete against high school bands with a very similar program and still find common ground. Stosh

How can a BOR refuse advancement to a scout that has fulfilled all the requirements? Obviously they shouldn't be retesting to see if that's true. If the boy produces his handbook with everything approved how can a BOR refuse? Sounds like adding to the requirements by a group of leaders who are not hands on with the boys in the first place. In my previous troop, on occasion I was asked to sit in on a BOR when I was serving as ASM. I would normally remain quiet and sign off at the end. The boy was cheated some feedback, but at least he had his BOR and moved on. It was interesting however, that the first words the CC spoke to the boy as he came into his BOR was, "Congratulations for advancing to the rank of ______. Sit down and let's talk about it." Stosh

Having had 10 years experience in marching band, I can assure you that most older members do not teach the younger ones, the band director does about 99.9% of the teaching unless someone just can't figure it out in practice. I have been everything from newbie to first chair to squad leader in marching band and I never had to teach anyone anything. In high school most of the kids came in and were taught by the band director and all we did was make sure the newbie got to where they belonged. I don't think pushing and shoving counts as EDGE teaching, but it worked. When I went on to college the same process applied but for the most part these students all had 4 years of experience when they came into the program so the pushing and shoving was minimal. Marching band was far more militaristic than what the vast majority of parents would tolerate in a scouting program so it's basically apples and oranges. It was interesting when I got into reenacting where the men were taught military drill of the 1860's. When I started out one of the old veterans said to me on the first day, don't worry, you'll know when you're doing it right, nobody's going to give you a shove. He was right. As a matter of fact if one were to treat scouts like high schoo/college marching band you wouldn't have a troop. My senior year of college we were taking the band to the Orange Bowl to play the half time. The band had 250 uniforms and 400 people "tried out for the band" that year. The band director prided himself in never having to tell someone they couldn't be in the band. But on the first day of practice, as a squad leader I was told how many tenor saxes were needed in the band. I had 3 extras and was expected to weed out those that didn't want to be there. What I ended up with was the cream of the crop, but the right number. Suppose I figured I needed 20 boys in my troop and when the Webelos came in, I "weeded" out those that weren't dead set on Eagle from day one. I wouldn't last 10 seconds in scouting. But, on the other hand, we ended up with the most dedicated musicians one could ever have and an excellent band. Expectations if placed high enough will produce very high quality, but it does have it's human price figured in. Stosh

Sometimes awards are nothing more than political tokenism. Once that gets to that point the whole value of the award falls off. Giving a trophy to everyone win or lose is just such a situation. However, there are other times when awards can be cheapened by how they are handled. For example: 3 adult leaders all received the "sparkplug" award on the same evening of district award night. Well 20 years later, two of them are Silver Beaver and the third just received District Award of Merit a couple of years back. The only difference between the three is that 2 of them did council FoS. The same year they did that they got Silver Beaver. Kinda makes one wonder how important it is in the long run. While words like Silver Beaver and Eagle might mean something by definition, in reality it is as diverse as there are people. One of the three is for the most part no longer active in Scouting. The other two are SM's. I wonder how many boys look at Eagle in the way some adults look at SB? Stosh