Stosh

There's a lot more to lighting a candle and fusing a rope being taught in the Firem'n Chit. A 2 second lesson on fire safety should suffice and a full Firem'n Chit training later on. Same applies to the Totin' Chip. Don't need to do the whole program with axe and saw, and most Cubbies have already had the Whittlin' Chip training so they should be able to cut rope safely. Stosh

As compared to: "Do Show and Tell" as we were taught in kindergarten. No wonder us old guys can figure it out. Stosh

I'm thinking the only way a scout can wear military and BSA at the same time is if he's wearing the BSA uniform inappropriately. Wearing the scout shirt and military camo pants is not wearing the scout uniform. Wearing the scout shirt and black dress pants is not wearing the scout uniform either. Stosh

Don't cha hate it picking off all those little thread frizzies after cutting off patches. It leaves all those little hole patterns that make sewing on the next patch too easy too! Been in scouting for 30 years, have 5 uniforms and have only sewn patches. I did cheat this last time for Jambo. I sewed my contingent numerals over my troop numbers and simply cut them off when I got home. Try that with Badge Magic. I didn't even need to go to the dry cleaners either, but correct me if I'm wrong.... I want to remove a temporary patch, toss the uniform into a mesh bag and give to the dry cleaners. Won't ALL the patches come off? That's gotta be a bummer somewhere along the way! Stosh

allangr1024, You sound very similar to what I'm facing. Maybe by sharing a bit of what we do it might help you. "This is the size of my troop right now. I have 10 registered, but have average 4 to 6 on campouts and at meetings." I have 11 registered, but I have maybe only 1 or 2 at the most missing any campout or meeting. All were in attendance last night at our meeting. I attribute this to the boys have the ownership of the program. "My SPL is really a glorified PL, an I interact with him like that. His job really is to see that the camping stuff gets done. I still have the troop come up with a patrol flag and yell, and respect the leadership." I have no SPL, I just have a PL over the 11 boys. It's not a good situation (too many boys in one patrol) and as soon as I get another boy or two we'll split into 2 patrols. Even then I don't see a need for a SPL. As far as PLC the PL can make all the plans for his patrol so again the PLC group is unnecessary to us. It sounds like you have just a patrol anyway, same as me. "My big problem is that with 4 to 6 at troop meetings, I am afraid that visiting cub scouts will see hardly anyone there, and decide to find a "substantial" troop." Yep, been there, done that. But, the other troop in town has taken on close to 50 Webelos cross-overs over the past 3 years and we got maybe six or seven and then most of them didn't want to work very hard and transferred over to the other troop anyway. Even with that number setup, at most district events like camporees, they don't have any more in attendance than we do. Most of their boys have quit or are inactive. On the other hand, I explain to the Webelos parents that in spite of the low numbers, I just did a double ECOH this past spring and have 2 boys at Life rank that will begin looking seriously into their Eagle projects this coming winter. All but one boy are FC or above. "I would love to have 30 scouts in 4 patrols, but am just learning the recruiting job. It seems that it took me 3 years as SM to see how this works in my district." On this point we diverge a bit. I'd rather go for quality rather than quantify. I've been at it for 3 years too. Our numbers might be small but it would seem that a lot of other troops keep hanging around asking a lot of questions about our program to take back to theirs. If we get at least 6 cross-overs this winter and with our older boys number up around 12, we can conceivably have 3 small patrols in the troop. That will maximize the leadership opportunities for the boys. "I also have to keep telling the other 3 adults working with the troop, "Let the boys do that." They always want to step in when something is not done "right" and see that it gets done." Yep. I find the #1 job of the SM is to keep the adults from interfering with the boys! You're on the right track, don't back down. "I don't think they trust the scouts to run a weekend camp out." Get adults that can trust. After all, the boys are working towards being Trustworthy. If never given the opportunity to show trustworthiness, then the adults are interfering in the boys living up to the Scout Law. "But I think a troop of one patrol can still be boy led and PLC directed. Our PLC has only the SPL and a troop guide on it, but they are given the authority to make decisions for the patrol." There's a lot of unnecessary titles and labels here, but you really don't need a PLC or SPL or even a TG. All you need is a good PL and APL and let them just lead their patrol. That's what the patrol-method is all about. If you have a PL, and APL, an SPL and a TG and you have 5 boys go on an outing, that means one boy is left to be the patrol. Maybe he could be the Chaplain's Aide and then you'd have all chiefs and no Indians. Unfortunately you need a few Indians to lead to develop real leadership. You're on the right track and just deal with what you have, you'll appreciate the smallness and closeness you have with the boys because if you get up to 30 boys, you're going to lose a lot of that and it'll be missed. Stosh

Guy, I surely didn't want to single you or anyone else out, I was only using the references to show how easy it is to slip into adult-run situations. I'll use your example, not of any judgment but because it can illustrate the differences that I'm thinking we both agree on. Adult-led: SM notices the PLC is stuck in a rut, makes a suggestion to SPL with full expectation he pass it on to PLC for resolution. (In a nutshell with over simplification overtones, of course. ) Boy-led: PLC sees it's in a rut, goes to SPL for assistance in getting everyone moving, SPL seeks insight into the problem and asks SM for advice. The dynamics of movement is what I was hoping to point out. Adult-led has the flow of energy (leadership directive) originating with the adults and moves towards the kids. In the Boy-led dynamic the flow of energy goes from the boys to the adults (for advice/support, if necessary, but hopefully they can resolve the issue themselves). I generally don't get involved unless asked. To often the dynamic flow of movement towards the boys by the adults can have a "better do it" flavor to it that forces the boys to follow that "friendly advice", or else. Looking at the thread: "PLC Stuck In A Rut", who seems to be upset about this? The kids or the adults? Who want's to initiate change? The kids or the adults? How come it always seems to come back to the adults? If the kids like it, leave it alone! However, if the kids themselves are not satisfied then what may be helpful for the SM to do in this situation may mean nothing more than leave a seed of doubt in the minds of those on the entrenched PLC. Maybe he is a catalyst for the boys to originate some leadership movement. But being a catalyst is not the same thing as taking over! Let's say the SM says: "I wonder if the older boys are really all that happy about going to the same summer camp now for the 5th time in a row." Or: "I bought a canoe this past week and the Mrs. and I are thinking about taking on some of the rivers and lakes in the area next summer." Or: "I was on the internet last night and I found a summer camp out in the middle of Nowhere, USA that had some really different opportunities." It doesn't have to be anything earth-shattering, just a little nudge to let the boys know it's okay to stretch a bit. I tossed out a flier from our Council that has two contingents going to Philmont in 2012. My boys picked it up, looked at it, made a phone call and although they didn't get the 2012 opportunity, they will be going in 2013. In the 50 years of this troop it has never gone to Philmont as a troop. They spent last night looking for a new hiking opportunity in N. Wisconsin for next summer. I have no idea where they are going, but I'm thinking I'm going to find out sooner or later. They also want to do some spelunking. Well, I'm not a cave person and neither is my ASM. I hope they can find registered adults to take them. I don't have boys stuck in a rut, I have boys coming up with too many new ideas that they aren't going to be able to do even a tenth of them. Yes, seriously!, I had a boy ask last night if the boys were to go sky-diving with backpacks and sleeping bags whether it could be counted as a scout activity. I had to inform the lad that was not something National allowed. As for me? I'm doing all I can just to keep up. Again, my apologies if it appeared I was distorting the point being made, it was not my intent to do that. Stosh

I'm thinking our troop might be using TroopMaster software. I'm not certain because my ASM's handle the "paperwork" for the troop. I'm thinking he okay with it because I don't ever hear him complain about it. I have no idea if and how much the software might cost, but anything of any value probably has a price tag on it. On the other hand, I am a computer programmer by training and would simply write my own program if I was in that position. Stosh

First of all welcome to the forum and although you have been lurking, it's good to see you getting active in the conversation. The post you provided is a wee bit sketchy and has a lot of elements that raise questions as others have indicated. However, the troop has lost a SM and now is looking to replace him/her. That means there are some pretty heavy duty shoes to be filling and with the background you have they might be a bit gun shy. I wouldn't take it personally, but I would seek out a troop that wasn't in transition if you would like to participate in a program with a bit more stability. I'm thinking that the CC and COH are as clueless as everyone else at the present time. I'm surprised that if the SM was planning on leaving, there be some ASM standing in the wings somewhere that could transition more quickly into not only the "training" but also the traditions and expectations of that particular troop. To walk in off the street or even come in fairly cold with only Cub experience might be a stretch for anyone. I would say, continue with your present course of training, etc. so that if nothing else you're ready to provide a shaky troop with some good ASM's. Being a SM isn't as great of a job that one might be led to believe. I had 13 years as ASM in one troop before taking on SM in another, and if someone wants my present job, no big deal there are a lot of troops out there struggling and in need of good SM's. Hopefully your CC figures out this political bombshell before the boys' program begins to suffer. Best of luck and relax, your career in scouting is just beginning and it's a great journey even if you don't know where you're going. Stosh

I've worn my BSA uniform out in public for many years now and have never been mistaken for any sort of military personnel. I know how to survive in the outdoors, how to handle a gun, how to handle a knife, how to find my way around using map and compass, etc. etc. etc. And just because some military personnel knows what I know doesn't make them a Scout. Stosh

Shortridge, I know you, like me, try for the boy-led, patrol-method, (I had hoped you'd understand from your earlier posts) but it's really, really hard at times to sit back and let the boys struggle. What's even worse is when you've let the boys stall out, crash and burn and then have to go back and rehash everything as a learning process. There are days when I'd just prefer doing it all myself and getting things knocked out correctly and quickly, but alas, it would not do the boys any good in the long run and it's not what I signed on for. After 30 years, I'm still waiting for a troop of 3 patrols, 24 boys, all Eagles, running like clock-work, and two to three high adventure trips being planned for the coming year. Then maybe I will sit back in my camp chair and enjoy my cup of camp coffee. Until then we can only dream! Stosh

John, Yes the reenactors are definitely historical theater. Not a problem, we do any era both military and civilian. We just chose CW because of the large number of available events. I totally agree that the BSA has made a conscious decision to make their uniforms non-military for the BSA program because of what you have pointed out. However, they have also made a conscious effort to retain the Sea Scout naval uniform probably because of some backlash along the way. As far as the para-military aspects of scouting, simply sleeping outdoors and knowing military skills like map reading, navigation, shooting, etc. will forever keep scouting under some sort of military cloud. After all scout is a military term. I guess I'm too much into developing effective future citizens, I haven't worried too much about what other people think about the uniform. Stosh

I don't use a PLC because I don't need one. I figure I'm going to need at least 4 patrols before I would ever consider having one. Having or not having a PLC is totally irrelevant to the boy-led, patrol-method program. Just for simplicity, assume there are two patrols. One is a NSP and the other a VP. So, we have a PLC and the NSP has 8 boys and the VP only has 7. National average is 14 boys in a troop so those numbers are not out of the ordinary. Okay, they have elections for SPL to run the PLC which turns out is NOT the PL of the VP, but none of the NSP can be elected so they basically don't count for anything anyway. Okay already, there's a problem with whether or not the SPL is part of any patrol, etc. Okay he's with the VP. PLC meets and it's two against one and the NSP will lose out on any vote of the PLC, even though the VP is a minority of boys. So much for a lesson in civics. Now the vote goes to the VP who decided that they are going to Philmont instead of summer camp. None of the NSP can go because they're too young. So SM steps in an fixes everything. They're still going to summer camp and the older boys will go to Philmont. Ever notice that if SM and PLC were to have stayed out of it, it would have resolved itself exactly the same way with far less hard feelings? The only other dynamic that would further complicate this whole thing is to have two mixed patrols. So now in order for everyone to get a challenging summer activity, both patrols would have to be split into two patrols of which either is too small to function but would be merged for expediency sake so you still have the older boys going to Philmont and the new scouts going to summer camp but both patrols would be contrived, just like they were when they were originally mixed. I really like boy-led, patrol-method because it just makes a lot more sense than what a lot of what's being promoted by adult-led programs. Discipline problems, interest issues, mixed patrol issues, advancement at different levels, all would somehow just go away if the adults just let the boys set up their troop the way they want to and then the adults could start spending more energy on teaching and developing real leadership instead of trying to resolve contrived problems of their own making. Stosh SR... not to pick on you, but notice the comments I put in... don't mean to yell, just needed a way to show what I inserted. Pick up a copy of Backpacker magazine. Tear out the info card in the back, and (GIVE IT TO THE BOYS AND HAVE THEM)send off for information from all the parks and resorts and guide trips they have, no matter how far-fetched it may seem. Then (IF THEY WANT TO THEY CAN...) go online and request tourism information from the states immediately surrounding yours. (HAVE THEM) Bring all that stuff (THEY) you get to the next PLC meeting and pile it on the table as a way to get the ideas flowing. Another technique (THEY) you might try is make a list of all the places your troop has been in the last 3-4 years, chronologically. Make sure to include repeat locations multiple times. Use that to demonstrate just how stuck in a rut the troop has been. Kids' active memories generally don't go back all that far - you need to show them how boring it's gotten. (LIKE THEY DON'T ALREADY KNOW THIS???) BP said, something like, Don't do anything a boy can do for himself. My apologies if this sounded a bit like I was picking on someone, it is not, all I wanted to do is point out how easy it is to have the adults do the work for the boys and take away their opportunities for real leadership in the patrols/troops. I don't know if people will become more adept at their wording but the conversation comes across loud and clear that with the adults doing all the planning, work, execution that they have an adult-led program. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

As a SM of a single patrol troop right now, soon to be 2 patrols, I can assure you that if the boy-led, patrol-method is used it'll work with any number of patrols. The idea is to have the boys do the work and organize themselves with minimal if not zero adult involvement. The patrol-method part is only to limit the number of boys in any particular "grouping" so that the PL is truly able to run the patrol. Like classrooms in school, the larger number of students in a class the more difficult it is for the teacher no matter how experienced, trained, etc. they may be. BP felt that 6-8 boys is just the right number of boys for the aspiring leader to be able to work with effectively. So if you have troop of 100 boys and your son is in a patrol of 8 boys it would be no different than a troop of 8 boys and your son is in a patrol of 8 boys. As far as opportunity goes? Getting a Philmont trek together for 7 boys/2 adults is no different for a 100 boy troop or a 8 boy troop other than the fact that 92 boys have to be told they can't go along instead of just one. Same for BWCA Permits are limited to 9 people as well. Size and funding doesn't limit the smaller troops. They have less needs, less costs and per person work out the same. Stosh I have 11 boys in my troop presently, really too big for 1 patrol, but I don't have the leadership to split until I get another boy or two. My two strongest leaders are best friends and they would go two different ways. I've had this problem before and it doesn't work. In smaller troop there will be a more blended age in the patrol. In a larger troop, it could be your boy starts in a NSP for a year or so. Your boy should be able to visit and decide for himself. After all, it may just be his first truly leadership decision if mom/dad stay out of the way and let him work through what he wants out of scouting. Stosh

"I like JFL's idea -- the SM should be counseling the SPL, and the SPL should be challenging the PLC." I don't, this is exactly what I would use as an example of adult-led leadership. "-- First of all, I strongly believe this is the point at which the adults need to roll up their sleeves and engage. A good friend who has been a Scoutmaster going on 40 years once told me his greatest challenge as SM is to figure out the level of adult involvement his junior leaders require and to engage or disengage based on that. Soounds like your PLC needs a heavy dose of Adult Association." Ditto. "As much as we would like, 100% boy led is a myth. The adults are there for a reason. Their experience is invaluable." If I really believed this, I would quit Scouting in a heartbeat! Sorry, but this statement is why we have so many adult-led programs in scouting today. To assume that the boys will never be able to actually lead is to set the boys up to never get there no matter how hard they try. If I was in a troop where the SM said that to me, it would be at the last meeting my son would have attended and he'd be in a leadership troop the next week. "Our troop has been in a situation where there was no PLC for at least a year, possibly more. Adult-led, advancement-oriented, the whole bit. Outings were in the same place every year, roughly six outings a year, and the same 16% (give or take) attended.A funny thing happened too: an entire Webelos den joined one spring, and by November, they had decided to split off and form their own troop, which had monthly outings in varying places." And still there are those that can't see the damage being done by adult-led programs! This is not an issue of a dysfunctional/non-existent PLC, this is because it's adult-led. I'm thinking one could have a PLC in an adult-led troop and the Webelos cross-overs would have still left the program. Just because one doesn't have a PLC doesn't mean it is adult-led!! Remember the other half - "patrol-method" Every patrol if left alone with a trained PL can do just fine without adult interference or a PLC. All the dynamics of the BSA program always want to tend towards adult-led and the temptation must be resisted at every opportunity. Okay, you have 4 patrols and they all want to go to a different summer camp. What now? The SM steps in and forms a PLC to make 3 of the patrols conform to one and they all go to the same camp. Sorry, that's adult-led, troop-method. In this case it's the responsibility of the SM to do only one thing. Find 8 adults to get the boys to the camps they want to go to! The NSP gets a camp that specializes in the first year program. The venture patrol gets a camp that specializes in high adventure, etc. Everyone gets what they want and the SM got off his butt and did his job, support the boys in those things THEY want to do, not what's convenient to the adults or they'll take over and start calling the shots. More power to those Webelos boys! Sounds like they might have some real leadership potential coming their way! If everyone always looks to real leadership to get things done in a troop, it's always going to be an adult-led program. Only when the adults make a concerted effort to relinquish that do they offer it up as an opportunity for the boys to pick it up and run with it. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

I'm thinking that the individual who tells the arrogant uniform police person to pound sand, might be lowering themselves down to the level of the originator of the problem. I'm thinking a more polite answer might be more in line with the Scout Law of Courteous. "Thank you for noticing that. I'll take it under advisement and address the issue at a later date when I have the time to better deal with it." Stosh

Okay, I'm confused on this: "(j) A person in any of the following categories may wear the uniform prescribed for that category: (1) Members of the Boy Scouts of America. (2) Members of any other organization designated by the Secretary of a military department." By US Code/Law, BSA members can wear US military uniforms and do so such as Sea Scouts (Navy Uniform) and the defunct Air Scouts (US Army Air Corps, at that time). It may wear US Army uniforms, but it can, if it wishes, have a uniform of it's own. Back when scouting started, the boys would wear the US Army Uniform and make it "BSA" by replacing the buttons with BSA buttons. Over the years the "tradition" changed with the exception of Sea Scouts which still wears, by congressional authority, the US Navy uniform with BSA buttons. Venturing crews can wear a uniform of their choosing and it doesn't need to conform to the BSA standard Venturing dark green shirt/gray pants. If an aviation Venturing crew were to be formed, they could wear the USAF uniform the same as the Civil Air Patrol does today as a civilian-auxiliary of the USAF. "What the BSA frowns upon is adding military-style elements to the uniform, such as helmets, gloves, swords and guns. From the Insignia Guide: Drum and Bugle Corps Uniforms Boy Scouts or Venturers who are members of bands, drill teams, or drum and bugle corps affiliated with a unit or a local council must wear the official uniform for their registration status. The wearing of special helmets, scarves, gloves, unofficial leggings, and the carrying of ceremonial guns or swords by members of such organizations using the uniforms of the Boy Scouts of America is in violation of the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America." Someone ought to tell this to the Madison Scouts Drum and Bugle Corps! Challenge Academy in our area is a Venturing Crew of "at risk" youth. This boot camp style of instruction takes problem youth and help them turn their lives around. They wear a US Army Class-B uniform with "Challenge Academy" rather than US Army on the shirt. The Challenge Academy program is run out of an active US Army Fort facility and none of the members of the Academy are enlisted in the US military. My Venturing crew did not carry ceremonial guns or swords, they were real. Why would National approve such things in writing to our Crew and yet forbid it within the Insignia Guide? The problem with BSA policy is that there are so many exceptions to the rules that the rules are often lost in the shuffle. The rub comes in the fact that Congressional US Code allows for the BSA to wear US military uniforms, but BSA in some respects chooses not to. Stosh

I might be one of those dreaded uniform police people that everyone talks about... Well, "might" could be too weak of a word. I AM one of those dreaded uniform police people that everyone talks about.... However, I try very hard not to make it a negative experience. Because of this my boys take great pride in knowing they are the only uniformed troop in the council. I don't think at this point it is a haughty pride, but just the fact that they know enough to help others with their questions about the uniform and adhere to the idea that as leaders they set the standard. I have a mini-inspection at every meeting of the troop. The PL's are responsible for getting their boys ready for the flag ceremony and they are themselves also doing a mini-inspection. The number of boys coming into line with shirt-tails out or buttons not fastened, etc. decreases all the time. I do have one boy that likes to "personalize" his attire and has on occasion needed some instruction in courtesy because of it. Russian military uniform buttons, even though they are really cool, don't belong on the BSA uniform. Also the SM feather worn by scouters in non-BSA settings is probably not a good idea on a scout hat even if it is the campaign hat. If a foreign scout were to see it, would he think that you were making fun of their scouting insignia? The other week he showed up with no socks, pants rolled up and wearing thong/shower sandals. At flags I quietly asked him if this adornment to the uniform was 1) a personal expression of being "cool" or 2) an inability to follow directions? I suggested that if he wants to express a wee bit of rebellion, he might want to get a historic uniform from the '60's which are available on E-Bay. He now wears the full green uniform and does so with socks. Too often we uniform police make the mistake of letting everyone know what is wrong with their uniform and seldom what is right. "Who sews your patches on, it's cool, they are exactly where they need to be?" Sometimes some humor helps: "If you sew the pocket shut on your left sleeve when you put your POR on, where do you keep your cell phone you're not supposed to have?" Even if they do it right, it might need a bit of a tweak: "Those pants look a little tight, if you give me your new size, I'll start looking for some new ones on E-Bay." A little peer pressure?: "Can't find your necker? Want your buddy's to go over to your house and help look for it?" A little sarcasm: "Lost your necker slide? I can teach you how to tie your necker so it looks like a really cool bow-tie, or maybe you can get another slide by next week?" Most of the time a little humor goes a long way, but deep down inside, all my boys adhere to the rule #2 of the troop: "Look and act like a Scout." Even if they don't always do it right, they still adhere to the BSA uniform as best they can. At least they try. Stosh

There's really TWO aha moments here. One when you realize the benefit of dedicated adults helping your son grow and develop and the second one when you realize the benefit of YOU being one of those adults helping a whole bunch of boys grow and develop. With a whole forum of adults struggling with getting a good program out to the boys, you have the unique insight in your troop to see how beneficial this is to the boys of your community. Don't give up on the boys nor yourself, it's people like you that make the difference for these kids. Stosh

Kudu has some good input, but from my perspective you have a troop with little if no leadership. 1) Doing the tried and true is safe. No risk of failure. 2) Doing something new will require more work, planning, energy, etc. 3) It's easier to follow yesterday's paths than to lead on the new ones of tomorrow. 4) If the PLC sits around long enough doing boring yesterday's activities, eventually some adult is going to put his/her foot down and try and get something going, i.e. take the lead.... Maybe elected PLC members are not going to be as effective as PLC members that really want to do something worthwhile. If the PLC isn't doing anything, except last year's schedule, why do you need a PLC? Dump it and let the PL's know that they can now do anything they want to do and don't have to wait for the PLC to tell them what it's going to be. I'm thinking there are going to be some PL's that have been waiting for a chance to do something fun and now it's their time to move on it. Too often than not, the PLC groups hold the patrols back and the adults sit around scratching their heads wondering why no one is doing anything. Drop the PLC for 1 year and let the patrols plan their own activities designed around their own interests and skill levels. That way the NSP can do their thing and the Venture boys can do their thing. At the end of the year, compare activities the PLC was choosing and those that the independent patrols were choosing. Should be an interesting insight. Stosh

That's all fine and dandy, but I thought we were talking about the minimum, not the advanced, head across country spend big bucks kinda training. Just the small town stuff to get a new leader up and running and doing a halfway decent job to begin with. So often the training we do for adults is exactly the opposite of what we hope to accomplish in the troop. Set up chairs, get out a video, have a flip-chart, lecture 'til your ears fall off. Do a break, if you're Cubs, maybe sing a song and then maybe have a little hands on game so everyone can avoid the dreaded afternoon of another two hours of sitting in a chair, and get another lecture on motivating young boys. Better yet, put it on-line so I can at least get a comfortable chair while I get bored to death with slide after slide of information and a test at the end which asks questions you just had answered for you about 2 minutes earlier. Then print out a certificate with your name on it that shows you pushed all the right buttons. Nope, I learned the most about scouts and scouting sitting around a campfire chatting with the old guard, reading a few books, watching others do their thing, etc. Eventually I figured out what was the good stuff that worked for my boys and what didn't. Were these "mentors" the cream of the crop? Heck no! Some were shining examples of great leadership and others were dire warnings of what could happen to you if you didn't pay attention. The minimum training would simply be an orientation to the BSA. The rest of the techniques are generally bogus and contrived. Everyone has a different style of leadership using different skill sets and attitudes. There's no training that can deal with those processes. Ever notice that one leader walks into a room and all the boys stick to him like he's magnetic or something. The next guy is a dork. What do they see that we don't? Maybe the kids ought to be teaching what the minimum requirements should be. Stosh

I was told by a 40 year scouter, member of the National BSA Hall of Leadership, that it was okay to have any temp patch they like go in the jambo area of the uniform. His patch was a region OA patch above the right pocket. Stosh

Everyone needs a skeptic to balance out any discussion. A person can sit through every training program BSA has to offer and still not be ready to be a leader. To a certain extent some of the problem lies with the training program offered by BSA and to a certain extent some of the problem lies with the attitudes and opinions of the leadership candidate. I might know all the skills necessary to be a SM, but if I cannot inspire and motivate young men, it's a waste of time. I might be able to motivate and inspire, but to what end if there is no goal? You want an Eagle patch with a resume entry? Sure I can get you that, no problem, we'll knock it out by the time you're 14 years old, then you can quit and get on with girls and cars and sports and other more important things. I guess I look for different qualifications than just training when it comes to adult leaders. ... are they interested in more than just their son's success? ... are they real leaders and can motivate and inspire all the kids? ... are they patient enough to let the kid struggle and grow at his own pace? ... are they trainable in scout-craft skills? ... can they take a really crappy outing and see it as an adventure of a lifetime? ... can they take on a challenge, fall flat on their face and still maintain safety and security of everyone around them? ... do they seriously believe every Tiger Cub/Webelos cross-over is going to be Cubmaster/Scoutmaster some day? How does one create a training program for any of that? Stosh

We had a presentation on uniforms at last night's Roundtable. The gentleman doing the presentation did a fairly nice job. However, he was young and the more veteran scouters added so much mythology to the Q & A time it was unbelievable. Everything from -- a scout was in uniform if all he had was the shirt to any favored temp patch could be worn in the Jambo area of the shirt. The Inspection Sheet makes no mention of the red epaulets, but the BS handbook shows patch placement using the older uniform, i.e. button on pocket and no sleeve pocket, trained patch on bottom, etc. It's no wonder there is no such thing as a true BS uniform... Stosh

I don't think the content of the presentation is important but any Eagle scout should be able to get up in front of a group of people and make a presentation that doesn't embarrass him. I make it a point that all my boys make at least one or two up-front presentations throughout the year. Popcorn point-man got up at the last COH and laid out his plan for the sales this year. The Summer Camp point-man has made a couple of preliminary presentations on next year's program already and will have more as time goes on. These presentations are not counted if they are made only to the troop. These presentations need the boys and their parents. From TF on, my boys are all taught to make communication contact with adults through electronic media, phone and in person. My Tenderfoot Den Chief candidate made a personal request to the CubMaster and was eventually contacted that he had a den over the phone. Then the boy set up a face-to-face with the CM to discuss the details and show his DC training credentials. Not bad for an 11 year old kid. Yes it was only one adult, but it's difficult to sell oneself. Start with one and build up to a small group. A FC scout MC'd the last COH we had. As per my other post, my SPL didn't do to well at the Committee Meeting this week, but he'll learn. My new ASM, Eagled just before turning 18 (1/10), completed fundamentals, completed WB training and made a presentation to Roundtable last night on uniforms in the BSA for his ticket. Not bad for 9 months work by an 18 year old in front of seasoned veteran scouters. When he started WB, he was pulled aside and informed that the staff was concerned about his maturity level being only 18. By the time the class work was done, they had rescinded their comments. Too often we focus in on the requirements for Eagle which under the new program do fairly well in developing management skills, but we continue to lack the program that develops leadership. This is what you do for Scout, this is what you do for TF, this is what you do for SC, this is what you do for FC, this is what you do for Star, this is what you do for Life, this is what you do for Eagle. Every step of the way is instruction in how to follow. Where's the leadership? Where's the requirement that the boy develop teaching, make a presentation, get up front of a crowd, take the lead, get out front kind of instruction? Teaching leadership is a risky business, one could crash and burn at any time and that would permanently harm the boy's self-esteem. But if he does it often enough and eventually learns to dig himself out of his hole, he'll have self-confidence instead of just some superficial self-esteem. It's one thing to have everyone tell you how good you are (self-esteem) and it's quite another to know how good you are (self-confidence). A boy makes a presentation, it's lousy, but everyone praises him and thanks him for taking the time to put out a presentation. The boy walks away thinking it was okay and the next time it will be just as bad. A boy makes a presentation, it's lousy, but someone with some honesty tells him what's really going on and it stunk up the proceedings. The boy walks away thinking he needs to get his act together and next time it will be better. Eagle mills usually don't have sufficient time to build leaders, they're goal is to produce Eagles, not leaders. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

EDGEy - I like that... Well, I've been breaking the rules on advancement since day one. I never have had a boy demonstrate any skill to me. I always make them teach me the skill. I think I have been using EDGE since long before it was PC in the BSA world. How can I ever expect an older boy to teach a younger boy scout skills if he can't teach? From Scout rank on it has always been, "Teach me the square knot", "Teach me the Scout Oath", etc. All my boys would prefer being taught by the older scouts and seek them out for instruction. I'm a little rough on them. The older boys love to send the newbies off to me to have me teach the Scout rank. (our version of the two-way smoke shifter) The "mark" comes to me with a piece of rope wanting to get the square knot checked off. "Okay, teach me." They most often than not (or knot, if you prefer) have learned right over left, left over right. Or is it the other way around, or doesn't it matter, or .... By the time I get done the boy usually doesn't know right from left or up from down. Mean? Kinda, but the boy begins to see that there's a lot more to this whole thing than just tying a couple of pieces of rope together and getting a signature in the book. So I teach them how to teach. Take the rope and give another to the person you're going to teach. Then follow this lesson plan: Hi, my name is ____________ and I'm going to teach you how to tie the square knot. (E?) Turn around with your back to the student, hold the rope up high in the air and now your right and his right are the same! Put right over left then left over right. (D?) See how easy that is? Okay now you show me how to do it. Wait, wait! Turn around and teach me, it's a lot more fun! Okay, right over left, good. Now left over right, Great! You got it.(G?) You did great! Let's go over to your PL now and show him you know how to tie a square knot and he'll check off your book. (E?) All my boys teach, they've been doing it for years, but I don't think any of them know what EDGE means. My boys always love it when I catch an older scout who has "forgotten" a skill because I'll always start at the top of my voice, "Hi, my name is Mr. B____ and I'm going to teach you how to put up a dining fly! First of all you get off your butt and drag the fly out of the troop trailer...." A lot of my older boys are staying current with their skills just so I don't do that too often. The other day I forgot and didn't call our CA forward for prayer at the closing flags. I dismissed them without thinking after the SM minute. The CA stepped out of line spun around and faced the boys and announced in a loud voice, "Hi, my name is John, and I'm going to teach you how to wrap up a closing flag ceremony!" What goes around, comes around! Loved it! Stosh Stosh