Stosh

thrifty, welcome to the forum! Why would this have to be a POR? Couldn't it be just one scout helping another? With the FC in one year and POR considerations on special situations, the troop program sounds a wee bit advancement oriented for my liking. (But that's just me.) I would simply put the boy in a patrol that has a PL that wants to take on a leader challenge and advance his skills beyond the others. A good APL could do a lot to help this boy, but of course it's a POR that gets no credit for it. But having a POR isn't always true leadership. I have a special needs scout that gets no special treatment and is treated just like one of the rest. I'm thinking one would get a lot more traction in this process if he just has a concerned buddy that helps him out rather than some smoke and mirror patch on someone assigned to help advance him to FC. True leaders don't always get the credit and recognition reflective of their efforts. Stosh

Moose, Sorry to hear that's the way it is in your troop. I held out for 15 years in a troop like that and when I finally realized it was a lost cause, I moved on. I, too, am totally disorganized most of the time. That's why I teach my boys to be organized. I just find all the things I do a lousy job at and teach my boys to do it correctly. It's tough following a boy-led SM because one feels they have some pretty big shoes to fill. With the new SM, it might not be a bad idea to have the committee assist him in turning the reins back over to the boys. He may be trying to show he's as good as the former SM and is getting too in over his head. The harder he tries the worse it gets kind of thing. The CC needs a few cups of coffee in closed session with the SM and just talk about the hopes and dreams of what needs to be done to have the best possible troop for the boys. If this SM just isn't the right personality for the position, then that could be part of the discussion. Hope things improve for your troop. Been there, done that, and it's no fun. Stosh

Survey? If it looks like a duck... walks like a duck... quacks like a duck... it's probably a duck. Okay, he's in a hurry and gets the bulk of the boys through the program, and the ADL picked up the pieces and got the stragglers up and running too. Sounds like the perfect team. I hope my ASM's fill in my short-comings along the way. I was a WDL that took WebI boys and had them done with the program within a year. We met weekly and WebII was nothing but going out and having a ton of fun with all that training we did. I had a good ADL that backed me up 100% and we stayed on the same page all the way. So being in a hurry isn't a bad thing.... 5 of those 6 Webelos boys Eagled. So what is being done to ASSIST the DL rather than just complain, and judge. Yeah, judge, that's what the survey, report card, etc. is going to do, validate a negative judgment some have towards this leader. Worse case scenario, the boys all say he's great! Now what do you do except eat crow? The other leaders deal with him with kid gloves? Sounds like they sold out to the money he brings into the pack. If they were more worried about the boys in his den than the money he brings in, they would have asked him to leave a long time ago. It's always interesting to deal with situations like this when there's dollars involved and how much a lot of people will tolerate for a big payout in the end. So, how would a survey go in your pack if the single question was: "Do we keep the money and poor DL or do we get a new DL and forgo the money?" Now there's a loaded question no one wants to honestly answer. Sometimes it's not a good idea to air out such ideas. It might turn out badly. As I have said before, I run my troop differently than others because I turn it upside down where the PL's are the highest authority and the SPL/ASPL, SM/ASM, and committee support them in their efforts. A little of that servant leadership might not be a bad option in a situation like this. What can we do to assist, help, support, guide, this DL and his/her ADL do a better job with the program? Better yet, survey everyone to see how well they have been doing helping the boys with a supported DL. Surveys, and report cards have a tendency to make people look bad, whereas support, help and encouragement makes them look good. Hey, if it works, you get a good DL and the money.... Stosh

My 18 year old Eagle scout/ASM completed his position specific training and has just finished with the educational part of WB and is working on his ticket. He is looking to get the OA reactivated in our district as a ticket item. "They also want to do something for the troop, and if you are an ASM under the current SM you hang around at a Troop meeting in the back and just talk. If your on the committee you get a job and can do something productive for the troop." This makes it sound like something bad.... The SM and ASM's all sit in the back and chats while the boys run the troop. But when called upon they work with the boys to support them in whatever they decide. If the 18 year old wishes to be on the committee as some sort of ad hoc assistant to the assistant committee member who works with adults making decisions and directing the boys, that's okay too. I don't see this kind of committee being conducive to a boy-led program, but it might work just fine for an adult-led program. Most of my adults don't have jobs in the troop other than help the boys do their jobs. I'm thinking only the CC and SM have "jobs" The CC works with the adults and the SM works with the boys. As it stands right now, the committee in my troop has not "taken a vote" on anything for the past 3 years. Does that mean they don't do anything? Nope, they're very busy helping the boys get the best out of their decisions. Right now after a very successful popcorn sale, the committee is working with the QM who is expected to do a solid inventory of troop assets and then put together a "needs list" to better outfit the different patrols. After the QM puts in the needs list, the committee will authorize payment based on the QM's report. But they may offer all kinds of suggestions for the QM to consider, such as prioritizing the purchases, getting the best deal, knowing where to shop, etc. In the end the QM will decide and submit the receipts to the treasurer of the committee who is pre-authorized to pay the payment based on what the boys say. The committee also does all the BOR's in which the ASM would be ask to sit out, so that important function would not be available to him either. Operating like a 3rd ASM on a jambo contingent, he is better serving with hands on with the boys, rather than sitting in on committee meetings where he's basically a non-member anyway, unless it's an adult-led program. Your mileage may vary. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

If the DL flunks, is the CM ready to take over the den if they can't find anyone to put in his/her place? Will the next person be any better? I can see this turning into a witch-hunt with the boys taking the lead. If my troop committee even thought about such a process for me, I'd be moving on to the next troop. If there are concerns, discuss it in private, don't make it a public spectacle in front of the boys. I have better things to do with my time than play these kinds of games. In this case, if the ADL thinks he/she could do better, then ask the DL to step down and give the ADL the DL spot by themselves, then they can call all the shots and keep the boys entertained. My suggestion? -- when you're done kicking this idea around, kick it out the door. Stosh

Okay, assume this is a terrific idea.... how much does it weigh in comparison backup batteries? If I can carry a dozen AAA batteries at less weight than one of these solar rechargers, what would the advantage be? Also assuming that I turn my cell phone on only for emergencies and to check once a day for any incoming messages, I should be able to keep a battery going for a week. I made it through the entire Jambo experience without recharging my battery. That was two weeks. Stosh

http://www.fretwellflutes.com/FlutesPVC.html Just thought everyone might want to know. This came up on a web search for PVC Flutes. Stosh

Hmmmm.... According to the BMI I am of normal weight. I'm 60 years old, can still get the 80# canoe up off the ground, I can hike with a 40# pack all day, but I don't think I can do a pull-up anymore. Even in my hay-day, I could only muster 1 or 2. I have never had upper arm strength. I can walk/hike all day, I can do sit-ups with no problem, I can jump, do all the other things, but arm strength just was never my forte. Stosh

Okay, a boy joins Cub Scouts, dad makes a commitment. Son bails, dad honors the commitment. My boy joined Boy Scouts, I, too, made a commitment to the troop. Son bailed, I'm now a SM 10 years later. Unless you have more information than what's in the post, I don't think a dad keeping is word is a bad thing. Dad might be an Eagle Scout.... Just because his kid wasn't interested doesn't reflect on the dad. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

"(j) A person in any of the following categories may wear the uniform prescribed for that category: (1) Members of the Boy Scouts of America. (2) Members of any other organization designated by the Secretary of a military department." According to your earlier post, this US Code seems to me to apply directly to the BSA legally being able to wear US military uniforms, thus the use of the US Navy Uniform for Sea Scouts, the same way Civil Air Patrol can wear the US Air Force uniform. I can't imagine how "may wear" can be reinterpreted to "may not wear". It's not like the Secretary of a military department has given permission to members of the BSA to wear their own uniform. I'm thinking they are referring to the use of current military uniforms. The only difference is that the BSA has chosen NOT to wear the US military uniforms except the US Navy uniform. On the other hand ANYONE can wear historical uniforms, no problem. This is what keeps military surplus stores in business. It's just that active military uniforms are restricted to BSA and other civilian organizations that are specifically authorized to do so. Originally the BSA and US Army wore the same uniform and eventually BSA buttons were added, eventually modifications were needed by the military that BSA didn't need and even though the same company made both uniforms, they somewhat went their different ways. Finally the BSA dropped the tunic and went with the military style shirt only, and now only slight vestiges of anything military remain. It was as if the law was originally laid out and never revisited or rescinded. It's kinda like the laws that prohibit tying your horse to a parking meter. It is still on the books but no one really cares anymore because it has become rather moot in nature. In the case of Sea Scouts, however, the trend continues today. Stosh

"Show improvement in the activities listed in requirement 10a after practicing for 30 days." Now for the interpretation of the requirement. Does it mean show improvement in the activities individually or as a whole? I would think it should say: "Show improvement in each of the individual activities listed...." Or it should say: "Show improvement in general in the activities listed...." As it stands it could be read either way. Stosh

The last few years I have not found any classes that I haven't already attended many times before, all the training is included this year as in Shriscov's situation and the only reason I'm attending this year is to start work on my Doctorate level of training which is 2 hours of the all day school. I don't see anything else to attend. At least the live training that one can get elsewhere fills up the schedule for the day. It might not be a bad idea to possibly ask some of the scouters in the council who aren't part of the in-crowd if they would like to teach something too. I haven't been asked to teach for 10 years now and they don't take courses on issues they haven't decided upon. There are only so many cobblers one could make and after 15 years, it hasn't improved much, but every year they offer it as part of the curriculum. Stosh

As far as I can tell, the Buddy System is not a social networking concept, it's a safety concept. Two boys watching out for each other does not mean they are friends, nor going to be friends any time soon. I have had two boys that were of different ages, different backgrounds, different ranks, one had special needs and the other far mature for his age. Were they friends? No, but the older boy made sure the younger boy got to his medications on time, to his merit badge classes, and was taken to all other activities for a week at camp. Did they ever become friends? I doubt it, but the older boy was 100% Scout (eventually Eagled) and knew what the Buddy System was inside and out. I'm thinking this mother is trying to make up for poor, if not anti-social behavior for her son thinking the Buddy System was a cure-all for all her problems with him. From the brief explanation, I'm thinking this young man is going to need more than just Scouting to get him acclimated to appropriate social behavior in a group setting. With mom running around interfering with everything the boy does isn't going to help. Although it is totally illegal today, back in the day of pre-hysteria, peers would have set this boy straight and it would have been handled without adults threatening lawsuits, complaint letters, etc. Over the years, my buddies adjusted my attitude a few times and it got me a lot more friends in the long run. I even remember that I had a knock-down dragged out fist fight in the back yard of the Den Mother's house with a boy that became my best friend in high school. I'm not advocating it for today's youth, but it does have a history of effectiveness for working out social problems amongst boys. A watchful eye from afar is sometimes okay. The mom is going to have to figure this out if her boy is ever going to have a chance. Stosh Stosh

A few years back we had a scout that couldn't do a pull-up to save his soul. He tried the first one and everyone in the troop cheered him on. No way was that kid going to do a pull-up. He worked at it for 30 days and once again he tried out the pull-up routine. Everyone cheered again, but to no avail. After a couple of tries, one of the boys yelled out from the back, "I saw his elbows bend, that shows progress!" He got credit for it, went on to become Eagle and the last time I heard about him he was defensive lineman for a Big Ten College school. When it comes to pull-ups watch the elbows! Stosh

Whew! I'm not allergic to cats, but there's still a lot of fur in the air for me. As a SM, I don't do MB's very often for the boys, I like them to get a variety of different MB counselors to give them a broader experience dealing with different adults. Because of this I offer very little to the boys except listen carefully to the MB counselor's directions and expectations, they are all different. Some do it exactly as required others give a little slush one way or the other. As long as I'm not doing the MB, I take a back seat on it. All I look for is a signature from the counselor. With that being said, when I do instruct a MB, I lay out the expectations for the boys on the initial visit. If there's a bit of wiggle room in the interpretation of a requirement, I explain how I interpret it. If the boys decide I'm too harsh they can then choose to seek out a different MB counselor and no feelings are hurt. The very first step I do is decide for myself what is it that I want to convey to the boys so that they have a decent take away when they have completed the MB. I haven't done the Family MB, but if there's a 90 day doing chores, I expect them to actually do the work and do it without being reminded and do it cheerfully. I make sure in the instructions I give that doing chores is what it takes to be part of something bigger than oneself and if constant hounding by a parent is required, then they really aren't trying to be part of anything. I can put anything I want into the instructions of the MB, but when all is said and done, I stick with the wording of the requirement. However they cut corners, or go the extra effort is entirely up to them. There are some boys who will take the program to heart and do a nice job on it, there are others who will only go through the motions and walk away with a patch. It's really not up to me to judge that result as worthwhile or not. Like any other program a person does, their take away at the end is reflective of their efforts along the way. I figure that if a boy only goes through the motions gets a patch and marks off another MB for Eagle just so he can get the rank and quit, I'm thinking he's missing out on a lot of what scouting has to offer. That's their choice. Stosh

Way to go Kudu, I posted how I use a 6' stave with the 1' markings and 1" markings on the end and some even thought it might be useful. Now that you have given away my secret, everyone's going to think it's a terrible idea because it is a BSA original from way back when and for sure deem it irrelevant to today's scouts. You have to learn to couch your references better! The use of hardwood makes them a wee bit heavier but a lot stronger. I use pine because it's cheaper, but advise the boys to double them up when using them in side stress situations, i.e. stretchers. Stosh

Although we rehash a lot of "old" topics, the situation we find ourselves in isn't always the same. I don't mind going over old threads because when new information or new people come on the site they don't always know to do searches and then only to find it doesn't answer their particular problem situation. Keep the questions coming especially the new guys and gals. A Scout is friendly. I'll have coconut cream, please. Stosh

In our troop the Committee meets on it's own night separate from the Scout meetings. The SM is invited as a courtesy to attend if he/she wishes. The CC and SM have an agreement: CC deals with adult issues and the SM deals with boy issues. When the two bump into each other, the CC and SM sit down and work out a solution over a cup of coffee. On Committee meeting nights, if the SM can't or doesn't wish to attend he/she, as a return courtesy, submits a "state of the troop" report that is entered into the agenda of the Committee meeting. If there is no report or there is no need to make a report, it is assumed that everything is running smoothly with the boys. Usually the CC and SM make a connection to verify everything and no formal report is made in these circumstances. No one likes to assume anything. As a side note, the CC and SM see the boy-led, patrol-method as the primary emphasis in the troop. The CC understands that the Committee is available to the boys as support of the boys' program. There are no decisions of the Committee which imposes, directs, mandates, etc. anything on the program run by the boys. As an example, the boys are running this year's popcorn sales and made decisions as to what they would like to do with the troop money collected. It was decided that it would go into new tents and stoves. They took a pass on the individuals' prizes the council was offering and instead asked for the money. In my report (SM) I noted this and the first thing the Committee decided was to find different ways to supplement that decision and decided to approach the CO and ask for their monetary support for new equipment as well. They also directed the treasurer to work with the finances of the popcorn sale to insure the money was earmarked appropriately, and the members of the Committee decided to research camping outlets to see if they could find a good price/equipment for the boys to consider when it came time to make the purchase. I know this sounds a wee bit Pollyanna, but it works for us. If the time comes when this "arrangement" is politically upsetting the parents, the parents are more than welcome to take over the CC and SM positions and put in whomever they wish. So far for the past 3 years, the parents have backed this CC/SM arrangement 100%. Stosh

I have a 6' closet rod made of pine as a staff. It has a 2" hook in the end and a turk's head hand grip. I have added a few shields over the years. The staff has 1' marks on it and at the bottom it is marked off in inches. I have 50' of parachute cord wrapped in a French twist above the handle. I wood-burn dates and places on the staff as I attend events. All the boys in the troop have 6' closet rods with hooks that they have decorated as they see fit. They have decided that the staff is "part of the uniform" and is expected present at all events, same as neckers and uniforms. They have figured out over the years that at camporees that they always get bonus points at the stretcher carry competition because coats and staves work quicker than the blanket wrap most often used at the station. Not only that, they always come prepared to the station. They have also gotten bonus points for leg splints using neckers and staves. It is somewhat big for a hiking staff, but being pine it isn't too bad and the boys have never complained. If it breaks, (trying to carry someone who is too heavy and they didn't double the staves on each side), it costs only about $5 to replace. The PL's carry the patrol flag on their staff and the acting SPL/ASPL put a flag on their staff so they all can be quickly identified in a crowd and/or gather their patrol quickly if need be. Leaving the events at Jambo, I simply held my staff up (I have a WB beaver patrol flag on my staff) and walked out. Everyone in my contingent simply followed me back to camp if they so desired. Rally 'round the flag boys! I also could tell where my PL's and SPL/APL were from quite a distance away. We use the communication aspects of the staff over the practicality of using it simply as a walking stick. Stosh

If the Tenderfoot requirement expects a heat source of some sort to be used to fuse the rope, then proper training in that heat source needs to be part of the instruction. I have fused ropes with matches, candles, campfires, Coleman lanterns, lighters, and even light bulbs. For the Tenderfoot guys I would start out with a candle only because I don't want matches and butane lighters in the hands of a half dozen boys inside a building. As they get older, they'll understanding the importance of fire safety (Firem'n Chit) and can adapt their methods of fusing ropes accordingly. Stosh

From birth to age 18 the parent and child are constantly in the process of changing the ultimate responsibility/authority of the relationship from parent to child. Yes, when a child is 1 year old, the parent calls all the shots, but when that child turns 18 they haven't a leg to stand on anymore. Somewhere along that journey, scouting helps the parent/child relationship by providing an option to allow that child to safely experience more and more responsibility/authority to the child so that when they finally do turn 18 it isn't an all or nothing problem. One of the difficult things a lot of parents seem to forget is that how that transition occurs will have an affect on the parent/child relationship in the years beyond 18 as well. If handled poorly it will cause resentment and anger but if handled in a safe and caring fashion, the parent/child bond will become stronger and last throughout the child's lifetime. Is Scouting the end-all solution to this process? Nope, but it is a useful tool parents can use to help them with this transition. SM's who genuinely care about their scouts make excellent pseudo parent role models that will assist parents, but SM's who are authoritarian and demanding will not be helpful to those parents who are caring and concerned and will magnify the problems of those parents who are themselves authoritarian and demanding. Must my observations having worked with kids for 40 years. Your mileage may vary. Stosh

Wereas there can be only one SM per troop, the two interested people could always flip a coin and have one SM and the other ASM. The only problem would be that just the SM person would get some of the major mailings from the council. With all the training you have received it might not be a bad idea to offer oneself up as another ASM (there can be as many as the troop needs) if you wish to be working directly with the boys or as a MC if you wish to at least have some input in the operations of the troop. Either way, don't give up on the boys even if the adults are being difficult about it. Stosh

Sounds like his CO isn't holding up its end of the deal by providing a meeting place. Somehow I'm getting the sense that this Crew is kind of a ad hoc, tossed together, parents on the Committee kind of Crew that hasn't got a home of it's own. I'd say go ahead and have your monthly meeting, this Crew probably won't last but a couple of months anyway. Stosh

As the year goes on, have more and more "group" activities that require the boys to do things together without the parents. Maybe something really active like a race that most couch potato parents will naturally stand back on. Get a coffee pot on in the back for them. Games and group problem solving activities work well for this. This kind of thing can be worked into the program over the year and encourage the boys to group up and parents to step back a bit. If you are designing activities for parent/son, then yes, your boy will always be left out. It's time for some den/group activities. A good Den Chief would be helpful with this. The boys all go one way and the adults head for the coffee. Let the DC do his thing with the boys. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

You're going to need a staff of a half dozen people to carry all that stuff. The rest of us just wear a possibles bag. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)