Stosh

Twocubdad, I have to respectfully disagree with you. I have had many thank you's expressed by the adults at COH's, Roundtables, District Dinners, WB Dinners, etc., but they all pale when the boys pin their mentor pins on my uniform. There is no Silver Beaver that is going to mean as much to me as those pins. It truly is just for the boys that I put the uniform on week after week and head out to the events. Stosh

To go along with this new marketing trend of BSA they are going to be offering next year two new business MB's - 1) Foreign Outsourcing and 2) Circumventing Child Labor Laws. In today's US business world there shouldn't be any problem finding MB leaders. Stosh

I tried to spin this off and I tried to set it up as a new thread and then as a spin-off thread, but the forum wouldn't do either of them today, so my apologies for the diversion. I know a lot of scouters out there that "cringe" at some adult leader yelling out "Sign's up!" when they give the silent signal of sign's up. I have often thought this rather irksome myself. I'm thinking I may be the only troop that does not do sign's up. In the three years I have been SM, I have used it maybe once or twice and then only when the scouts are being rude to either myself or the speaker in the room. It's a gesture of last resort. We are a small troop and maybe if it were bigger it may be different, but I'm thinking not. The PL calls out "First Call" and the patrol forms up, does a quick inspection of the boys and then goes and places himself where he wants the boys to line up for flags. Then calls out "Fall In". At that point the boys remain silent (or at least should remain silent). While in formation, the talking is at a minimum and discouraged by the PL. Whenever a speaker is addressing the group, he/she should not have to interrupt the boys and then expect them to not interrupt them while they speak. Courtesy rules the situation. I won't interrupt you and please then don't interrupt me. It has gotten to the point where a speaker when they place themselves in front or at a podium, the boys quickly quiet down without anyone having to do sign's up. Normally if there are boys talking, I will watch them until they are done or the PL hushes them having seen me waiting for them to finish their discussion. This routine has worked well for our troop and gives the boys an opportunity to focus and show courtesy without having to be reminded all the time. It also places the responsibility on the PL's to lead in their patrols. Whenever they are in a larger group of other scouts, they are usually the first group to put signs up because they have been taught to be attentive and focused on the activity at hand. I don't think any of my leaders or scouts have had to say sign's up out loud, only put up the sign and wait for others to quiet down. Whenever the patrol(s) are formed, talking is discouraged by the PL. Whenever someone wishes to address the patrol(s) they signal to the PL's to form up their patrols and then one can properly address the group. If the boys are not in patrol formations, there's no real need for anyone to address the group and expect them to be quiet. Whenever we are involved in a large group exercise such as camporee flags, the boys form up by patrol(s) and then walk quietly to the ceremony where they stay in formation and keep the talking quiet. The PL is responsible for watching for sign's up from the color guard and maintains order in his patrol having found their location to stand for the flags. We have found that from "fall in" to "dismissed" the boys are far more attentive and do not rely on the speaker to signal them to quiet down. A Scout is Courteous shouldn't be something that the boy has to be reminded over and over again like some 4 year old being told to say "thank you" by his parents. A structure or procedure should be developed to allow for this process to happen naturally. It has taken a while, but it does work. Let the PL's do their job of running a courteous patrol. Your mileage may vary. Stosh

When I was Advancement Chairman for a large pack, for two weeks prior to Blue-Gold, I made DAILY trips to the scout office to pick up advancement badges, pins, beads, belt loops, etc. for the boys because the DL's trickled in the information at the last minute! With 130 boys in the pack I couldn't wait until the last minute to do it all, so it took me the full two weeks to get the job done. With 130 boys one could easily expect 500+ badges that needed compiling and sorting out. It was a blessing that our scout shop isn't open on Saturdays so I had all day to do the last minute details, and it did take all day! It is worse than popcorn distribution! One has to be precise because you don't want any boy not getting what he has coming! 12 dens, 10+ boys each, all laid out on the table so the CM could just go down the line and pick up the awards, give to the boys and get the thanks! I did it for 4 years and no one ever said thank you! But, it was for the boys and that was thanks enough just to see all of them getting their awards. I went on to do advancement for the troop, but it was a lot smaller number of boys. I did that for 14 years and again, no thanks were ever expressed for doing that job either. Being Advancement Chair is truly one of those thankless jobs one always hears about. Thanks would be nice, but I have yet to meet an Advancement Chair that does it for anything other than the boys. Would I do it again? Only if BSA policy changed and I could literally hold DL's feet to the fire and get the reports in at least a week in advance! Stosh

Basementdweller, Do it for the boys, and if you get left out in the cold by people, don't worry. Been there for almost 20 years now and all you need to do is put on an extra sweater and have fun with the boys. However, with an outsider's perspective you have good insight into helping others with whether or not to participate in such programs as WB. I don't think the new program is any better than the old regardless of what people say, yet the idea of the ticket and doing something challenging for your pack/troop is a good idea. I re-work my ticket on a continual basis, each year setting up new goals of what I want to do for my troop in the coming year. I don't get any more beads or recognition for it, but it keeps me focused on what my boys need and whether or not I'm doing a good job of providing it. The ticket was the best part of WB for me. Stosh

I'm assuming the "speaker" you are referring to is the one giving the color guard commands. It doesn't make any difference where he stands. In our flag ceremony, the PL does the commands and stands with the patrol, but only the two flag bearers move forward and place the colors. He could very well stand between the two flag stands and do the same thing. As long as everyone in the room can hear the commands, it should be okay. There is no prescribed formula for the speaker, only the movement of the flag bearers. Stosh

While it's not really a hot button in our council, the lines in the sand are drawn. There are those who are in and those that aren't. It's not really a mean thing, or an arrogant thing, just a thing that is tolerated. There's even a line drawn between the WB's before 2000 and those afterwards..... I'm pre-2000 WB so I'm on the outs there too. They told me that if I ever wanted to be on WB staff I would have to take the course over again. Kinda like going back to high school and doing it again, yeah, right, like that's ever going to happen. I just focus on my boys, do my own thing and mind my own business. After 30 years of being registered in BSA, they asked me to be a unit commissioner because no one else was stepping up. Makes it look like a really fun job. Well, I was one of those not stepping up. Normally I just plod it out in the trenches and don't aspire to greatness in the council. It took me 28 years to get the District Award of Merit, while many of my counterparts got Silver Beaver, for doing a year's worth of FOS kinds of things. For many years I got passed over by the in-crowd of those that hosted a Camporee and got DAM. Maybe they organized some Webelos outing so they got the DAM. Me, I just work with my boys in my unit and so I never qualified for it. However, they gave me one anyway. While it is easy to feel bad about getting shuffled off to Buffalo all the time, it really doesn't bother me at all. I am doing it for the boys and when my boys show up, the other troops notice and some even copy the standards we set. How many troops show up at camporee flags in the morning in full uniform, carrying the troop flag and patrol flags? They stand in formation and do not stand in single file line and salute to the back other their buddy's head. The other troops do cobblers for the DO competition, my boys do cheese cakes. They win every time they enter. I like what I do and I don't worry about the accolades that others get for their participation in the program. I just do it for the boys, they thank me for it and life goes on. I guess that means more to me than the patches the council hands out with the little certificates with my name misspelled. With the number of posts on this thread in just a few hours, it obviously a hot button elsewhere too. Stosh

Don't you think that a satellite modem, laptop and printer is a bit overkill on a backpack trek! Remember, it's the old goats that are computer illiterate that are needing the help! The gimp-eye is sounding better all the time! Our scout camp has a huge compass they use to teach the boys. Maybe we could replace the wooden needle for a magnetized one and bungee it on the backpack. That might work for me too. Then a 6' pvc pipe to roll the map up in. Maybe one could roll the map up on a 6' hiking stick! Hey, I'm thinking this might all work! Thanks for making my day, I'm not feeling old at all now! Stosh

And the catalog explicitly states that the BSA blue jeans are not to be considered in anyway part of a BSA uniform. One would also think that if the boys can afford BSA blue jeans they can surely afford BSA uniform pants. Kinda blows the whole argument out of the water. Yeah, yeah, yeah, $10 is not $30, but I can get uniform pants off of E-Bay for around $10 and it's official. Quote from the cited website: "THIS IS NOT OFFICIAL UNIFORM WEAR! INTRODUCING BLU -- BSA EXCLUSIVE-BRAND YOUTH DENIM. NEW! From school-wear to outdoor adventure, this classic 5-pocket style is durably constructed and made to last. Parents will love the quality and the great value price. Basic jean design includes BSA logo on the shank button and the cool BLU label on waistband back. Non-uniform apparel for youth in 100% cotton denim. Imported. " All caps are from the copy/paste from the website. This is nothing more than BSA making a few extra bucks off of their marketing to youth. Sorry, the argument doesn't hold up that because BSA sells blue jeans, it means they are acceptable part of the BSA uniform. Stosh

Gotta love the discussion. Only those who have failing eyesight can understand. I may need a bigger numbered compass and with all the bells and whistles necessary for my sight problem, but what about the maps!?? A good compass and small print topo just aren't going to get along very well. Do they make large-print topos? Stosh

I'm with Jeffrey H on this one. There is no such thing as a full uniform. There is in uniform and then there is not in uniform. When I was a Cub Scout I had the socks, belt, pants, shirt, necker and hat. That was the uniform. I wore it out as did most other boys. Fortunately for my mom and dad, I didn't get my growth spurt until I was out of Cubs. When I was a Boy Scout, it was again, socks, belt, pants, shirt, necker and hat. It was expected. Today one has the notion that just the shirt is good enough. Well, I went to a double Eagle Court of Honor and one of the boys wore the uniform because he had attended Jamboree and it was required (as if when not at Jambo it's not???) The other boy had a scout shirt and blue jeans. If kids can come up with uniforms for sports, school, etc. surely the investment in a pair of pants and belt can't be that big of a deal. A uniform is not required. I would prefer the boys show up in civilian clothing than come with a half-baked attempt at a uniform by just wearing the shirt thinking they are in uniform. It especially irritates me at flag ceremonies when boys use the scout salute when not in uniform. It shows a level of respect/disrespect for what they are doing. My boys have refused to participate in non-uniform days at summer camp. It was the last time they attended camp at our council camp. My troop is the only one in our council that I know of that is in uniform for all scout activities. And as a secondary comment, blue jeans for Cub Scouts is explicitly forbidden by BSA policy. But then it would seem that everyone is making up uniform rules on a daily basis. Stosh (This message has been edited by jblake47)

I kinda agree with gotta run here. By the time I was old enough to join Boy Scouts I had more time in the woods than most of the boys exiting with Eagles. By the time I started Cub Scouts, I probably had more hours, but not necessarily the skills. My very first Boy Scout activity was a 10 mile hike with building a fire, cooking a meal and hiking with a day pack. All of this I did without any assistance from anyone else. Been there, done that. And yet I had a Webelos boy in my den that couldn't start his fire because he didn't know how a book of matches worked. For all the PR focused on adventure, there surely seems to be quite a lack of it in most modern BSA programs. Even today at age 60 I camp two to three times as much as my Troop does. I canoe/kayak 10 times as much, and I cook more meals over fire than any of them. Although I have never calculated the hours, I believe I spend more time outdoors than the whole troop combined. When I was a WDL I bent every rule in the book to get my boys outdoors camping. By the time they entered Boy Scouts they probably had as much outdoor time as anyone still working on FC in the troop. And my GS daughter? Well we have camped out as recently as within the past month. She's 26 and we still take our annual outing in October. Her husband doesn't camp. The closest thing to "camping" today is an RV, ATV, six-pack and a campfire. I traveled from San Diego, to Calgary to Wisconsin in 4 weeks with a wife and 2-man pup tent. Didn't think anything of it at the time. So with that back ground, why is it so hard to get the boys to a camporee? If a kid wants to play with a stick, it's okay with me. At least he's out in the woods looking for them! Stosh

It's been many years since I taught the SM Fundamentals and Webelos Outdoor, but unless there is a lot that truly overlapped at that point. BS - set up their own tents and did their own cooking on stoves and fires. CS - did not. BS - weren't really restricted as to where they could go to camp. CS - are restrictions. BS - adult leaders often times have a few years of outdoor experience before they come into the program. SM's that have never camped out before taking the job are very rare. CS - not a safe assumption. (I had WDL's that stopped off at Walmart and picked up a tent and sleeping bag on the way to the training weekend!) I stopped teaching when National said that a leader can get the training and camp with their boys without ever having slept in a tent themselves before hand. One can safely assume that if the CS program for Den Chiefs has a break out between Wolf/Bear and Webelos, there's another natural break between Webelos and BS. If National has merged the training, I'm sure that a lot of what was being covered in the past isn't anymore. Stosh

In my "survival kit" I always carry a magnifying glass. I use it to wood-burn my walking stick, start fires and read the little marks on the compass. It also comes in handy to read the small print on food containers and see slivers in boy's fingers. I also have one at my desk at work, bifocals normally for near and far, computer glasses for in between and the magnifying glass for reading things off my desk, easier to pick up than switch out glasses. No, trifocals don't work, the lens is too narrow to see the whole computer screen. Getting old is the pits, but the magnifying glass gets me through. At work it is also called my "gimp-eye". In the field with the boys, it's called my "gimp-eye". The boys have offered to paint my walking stick white with a red tip, too. In the meantime, I use the regular Silva compass I had as a kid. I might be falling apart after 50 years of use, but the compass works just fine. Whatever works! Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

Is that 9:30 PM or 9:30 AM. Stosh

We reduced the stick problem in our boy scout troop by requiring (as part of their uniform, their decision) to have a 6' walking staff with hook. I made them up and they cost about $7 to make. The boys can mark them up anyway they wish to make them personal. Now... with that big of a stick to drag around, they don't go looking for anymore unless they are gathering firewood and then they tend to find the smallest branch in the woods for that purpose. Yes, the ends of the staffs tend to have a few char marks where they ended up stirring in the fire. But if they can't pass inspection, they can get another one for $7 and start the personalization process all over again. If they start misusing the staff, it gets taken away and they have to buy it back at $7/each. Once or twice and that's the end of the whacking for that boy. They need the staff to participate in uniformed activities. Other than getting lost a few times, it has reduced our "stick" problem almost completely. Stosh

Wait until they get older, then they quit poking each other and start poking in the fire with the sticks. Then the real fun starts! Stosh

I would talk to the DE about one of two subjects. 1) Need to get the unit functional. Right now there are enough markers to indicate that the troop is very dysfunctional. or 2) Where you might go to find a functional troop for your boy. This program may be deemed "boy-led" but obviously there is zero leadership going on. Are the boys trained? Are they organized? It surely sounds more like a free-for all than an organized troop. Just because it's boy-led does not mean that the adults "take a powder". I have seen a lot of units go through power struggles, but this is just the opposite, everyone has abdicated leadership. Stosh

Obviously the artist for the magazine picture is trying to paint a picture about something he/she knows nothing about. Maybe this project was outsourced to India where the British salute of palm forward is seen as normal. However, the BSA program specifically describes the salute as palm down as shown in the on-line version of the picture. Sometimes "Made in America" is worth the extra effort/cost. Stosh

If one has a troop small enough to warrant an SPL/ASPL they are probably not needed and should be dropped. I would think the only reason one would have an SPL in a small troop is for advancement purposes and for me that is not proper justification. If one has two patrols, the two PL's could do whatever patrol coordination was necessary to function the troop. Once one has 4 patrols, that process may necessitate the use of an SPL. If one has a troop big enough for an SPL, they probably are big enough to need a QM troop coordinator, Scribe for the troop, etc. and they could "patrol up" together and still find sufficient time to coordinate the other patrol activities. If one needs an SPL/ASPL for an event and there are only two patrols, the senior of the two PL's could easily accommodate the attending of SPL requirements. He only has to report back to one other PL and accounts for about 5-10 minutes of effort, not enough to warrant a full-time SPL. I presently have a very large patrol (11 members) and as soon as I recruit one more boy, we will divide into two patrols. I see no need to deplete either patrol by having an SPL/ASPL as part of that limited organization. Both patrols will work independently of each other and when needed the two PL's can coordinate any inter-patrol needs. If the two patrols wish to attend two different summer camps, there is no need for an SPL to come in and tell one or the other they can't. If the older boys are told they cannot attend a high-adventure type of summer camp or the new boys are told they can't attend because they don't qualify for high-adventure, the boys in the patrols will seek out other summer activities that meet their needs. Neither option is conducive to a well-run troop. If there are 4 patrols and there is a troop officers corps to assist them, then all 4 patrols can go to 4 different summer camps with the coordination efforts of the SPL, Scribe, QM, etc. helping them out. I would never think it appropriate to have the troop officers within a patrol. The temptation is too great to offer favors for their patrol over the others. If the SPL is doing all the planning, games, etc. for the patrols, then the PL isn't doing his job. If the troop is troop method, then there of course is a need for an SPL to run the whole show, but if the troop is patrol method, then the PL is responsible for the operations of his patrol. BP liked the idea of 6-8 boys in a patrol because budding new leadership really can't handle more than that and run a decent program for them. To think an SPL can run a program of 15-20 boys simply isn't feasible and either the SPL is running the show and the PL's are not doing their job or the PL's are doing their job and the SPL is not necessary. If the troop is big enough to warrant an SPL he doesn't belong interfering in the patrols, if the troop is small, then the SPL or PL's are in name only and not earning their POR requirements in my book. Your mileage may vary. Stosh

Thrifty, Don't get me wrong. If a boy wishes to step up and really wants to work with these boys in a continuous leadership role for them, then by all means, the credit should be given to him. But for the most part, each boy that comes into contact with them needs to step up their servant leadership and buddy up with them whenever possible. Stosh

Fees/dues for adults? Not my cup of tea. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's expenses for the adults, but I think with the time and energy I put in, that should count for something, but when FOS rolls around, I pay up more than my fair share and if some boy is in need, his registration gets paid for, by me. If there's extra patches for adults, i.e. trained patches, awards, etc. I have been known to absorb that into my personal budget as well. I buy popcorn from the boys and when all is said and done and my personal finances are not reflective in any troop audit, I get a free ride. Yeah, right. Stosh

Maybe the ADL could come prepared with a craft and the DL come with the instructional part. This way, the ADL could help the DL keep his part sharp so that there's plenty of time for the crafts. I'm thinking that if the two ever got on the same page together they'd work quite well with the boys. Stosh

Smoke and Mirror Patches for those those scouts who wear the patch and get credit for minimal or no work so that they can advance. If a boy wears a patch and does the work, then it's a real POR patch. If a scout truly wanted to assist with a special needs scout he wouldn't need a patch or special leadership project assigned to it. Heaven forbid he only helps the special needs scout because he needs the advancement credit. Deep down, Barry, I don't think we really disagree all that much. Stosh

As DC, the boy serves the Den. It has nothing to do with the Troop other than they authorize him to do so. If the CM likes the setup, the current SM and SPL are cool with it, the old SM and SPL can pound sand because they are no longer involved in the process. I had this happen to me when my DC went to another troop along with one of his buddies. We as a troop have every intention of recruiting his den out from under him this winter. They have one DC championing his new troop and we have our whole troop championing ours. My boys also went after the WDL and CM in the process and involved the Cub parents too. I'm thinking the only one going to the other troop this winter after cross-over is the DC. Play the hand you're dealt, but play it well. Stosh