Stosh

That little login box has been popping up for years and I've always ignored it and clicked around it. I still post with no problems. The box in the posting messages is filled in by Firefox and Chrome with no problem. I get used to ignoring them. If for some reason I might have someone using my computer, I just logout and that ends that. Stosh

I guess I have to take the track the CC has suggested. If the patrols are mixed, then every time something comes up that might be high adventure, i.e. limited by age, then the patrols would need to break up! If the patrol only does what the least level of boy is capable of doing, the older boys will get bored. I'm thinking the boys should be allowed to select who they want to hang with, and if all the older boys want to hang together and do things, they aren't limited by age, rank, etc. Yes it would be nice if the patrols interacted with one another, no reason why a venture patrol can't do something nice for the NSP, but the boys need to be making those kinds of decisions, not the adults. Every effort should be made to homogenize the patrols, not the troop. One needs to homogenize the troop in an adult led program, but definitely not a patrol method troop. If 8 buddies go into Tigers together they should by all means Eagle together if they wish and not have some arbitrary adult decision that breaks them up when they reach Boy Scout age. BP likened the patrol to a natural gang of boys, this means they have or will bond together to form a group on their own terms. To mix and match arbitrarily "for the sake" of the troop or to make the lives of the adults easier, encourages them to find other activities where they can hang out together. If for some reason a venture level patrol decides to take on a newbie scout as some kind of mascot, younger brother or whatever, it should be a patrol decision, not an adult decision. I have suggested as a standard for my troop, the boys can have a patrol of 6-8 boys. I don't care who runs it, how that person is selected, but I have no influence on who is in the patrol. That is left up to the boys themselves. If the patrols were homogenized and it was decided by all the PL's to do a high adventure outing instead of summer camp some summer, then every patrol in the troop would potentially have to break up in order to get there. Otherwise the PL's of the venture patrols would simply decide and go in their entirety, end of discussion. No hassle, no adjusting, no accommodating, no adults getting in there and messing around with it. The incident that caused me to move out of an adult led program was one summer the boys went off to a camp far out of council. The three patrols were homogenized and when they hit the camp Sunday afternoon, the SM let all the older boys sign up and go off on the high adventure experience. That left NO leadership in the patrols and of course, the SM took over and ran the show for the rest of the week. Afterwards the trip was always referred to as the Scoutmaster's vacation with the boys tagging along. To simplify the adult requirements, each of the patrols would have an "adviser" who would need to find a second chaperon for any activity that required it and be done with it. That way if there are 10 patrols, 10 advisers and they could go in 10 different directions if they, and the emphasis is on they, decide to do so. I seriously find nothing wrong with each patrol going off and camping at a summer camp of their own choosing. What does that do to the dynamics of the troop? Nothing, except offer a troop that allows any and all experiences from which the boys can choose. It only gets complicated when one stirs adults heavily into the mix. After working with kids for over 40 years now, after watching their social interaction, I will never be on board for homogenized patrols. John KC: Maybe they don't have the experience of a corporal, but Scouting is the best way I know of to start the process. Maybe after 2-3 years of training, they can be at a level good enough to lead 7 other boys as PL. After all, we're here to teach leadership and what better way to do it than with the patrol method? I know the comparison isn't an exact fit because if a corporal makes a bad decision, someone might die. If a PL makes a bad decision, let's hope that doesn't happen. As you pointed out all those in the military are leadership trained. Yep, that's my goal for my boys too! Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

????? Since when is AOL a requirement for crossing over to Boy Scouts or any activity that implies that process? If the boy is in Cub Scouts and will be going into Boy Scouts, he should be given the same opportunity to visit with the troops, etc. regardless of the rank he's at!!!! I can see this quickly turning into those who are in the group (AOL) and those that aren't (JUST Webelos). I don't know if I would be wanting my troop to be a part of that process. I'll just go to the B/G's and talk to ALL of the boys, thank you. If the Arrowmen show up, fine, if not, that's okay too. If any of the Webelos want to join up, just cross on over! The only pre-requisite is wanting to join the troop. We have had occasions where Webelos walked across the bridge to nowhere.... Kinda looked bad for the boys, but that's what the parents wanted. Stosh

I don't know if I'm advocating anything or not, just pointing out the smaller one makes the box, the more cramped it's going to feel. Since when has Scouting ever taught irresponsibility and since when did Scouting ever have to make a ton of rules to keep the boys responsible? If a boy is taught to be responsible, there isn't a whole lot of need for volumes of the rules that seem to grow daily in our neck of the woods. I practice LNT long before it became the latest/greatest vogue in the scouting community. 20 years ago the boys were complaining because I suggested to them to police up their campsite after camping. Heck, because I was driving I once suggested they clean up a whole city park they were camping in because it needed it. Did I sit them down, give them a little lecture and show them a video, then have them memorize the LNT little blurb? No, I suggested they clean up every cigarette butt even after another leader told them not to. I was picking them up and I had gloves from my first aid kit. I then suggested they get out their gloves from their first aid kits, put them on and pick up butts. It sorted out the sheep from the goats (those with first aid kits and those without) rather quickly and gloves were shared. Well today I don't have to remind them to police up their area, nor do I need to remind them to have gloves in their first aid kits, and to this day I don't think any of my boys have the LNT blurb memorized. "You seem to be advocating a no-rule, anything-goes system. Am I understanding you right?" Yep, I teach responsibility for the world of nature around them, they are caretakers of it, they maintain it, and they don't need any rules to tell them what it is or how to do it. If it's dry and windy, they know enough not to start a fire/stove regardless of whether there's a burn ban or not. One can have a no-rule, anything goes system when one is dealing with mature, responsible people, i.e. the goal I have set for my scouts. Otherwise, if people aren't mature and responsible then you need the babysitting rules to keep them corralled in and controlled. Mega rules/nothing goes systems are required for irresponsible people. Understandably it's more difficult to teach responsibility than merely following the rules, too, kinda like the difference between leading and following. My boys use my hand axes all the time to start their fires. I have yet to see anyone of them threaten a live tree or bush with it. I have also seen my boys check the ground below their tent site and move accordingly around any seedlings that have cropped up. That's one I never taught them. Stosh PS. The secret to having the boys police up the campsite afterward is because the crazy SM isn't going to personally leave a mess. So, because he's one of the drivers, if we want to get out of here any time soon, we all need to pitch in and get this cleaned up. (This message has been edited by jblake47)

My troop is a BB in a boxcar. We have so much room it's pathetic. Yet the other troop nearby (used to be an ASM there) doesn't have enough chairs to pack them in and sit them down. Their annual attrition is huge. At least half the troop each year departs. They leave their application open to any and all boys and basically the cream of the crop end up staying. (Actually it's the boys who's parents seem to hang around the most). It is common to have 45 boys on the charter with 15-20 showing up for meetings, but no one has ever said the boy can't join. The pattern repeats itself every year. 20 boys in January, jumps to 40 right after B/G, and by the time January rolls around again, they're back down to 20. Stosh

One of the big issues for the group dynamic issues of any troop is not necessarily the theory aspects. Professional teachers optimize at about 20-25 students because that's about how many they can handle. These are professionally trained people. Semi-trained volunteers can't conceivably do as well and thus adult led troops tend to be the 10-20 range so that everyone can handle that many boys at one time. Sure, add to that the SPL who's immature and less leadership skills than most adults and they're going to be in over their head once the troop gets to be 3 patrols. Adult association is vital to the program, but for guidance and support. If the goal of the boys is independence, the association with adults is to help them get to that point. The theoretical goal of good parenting is exactly the same. Adult association is not babysitting these boys until they are 18. At least not in my book. That means that the adults teach and suggest, and then get out of the way and let the boys lead, but lead a group size they are capable of handling, i.e. a patrol. The group dynamics we are talking about here work very well for the military, for business, and for churches. Every military squad (patrol) has a corporal (PL), the sergeants are in charge of a group of corporals, first sergeant runs the corps of sergeants (SPL) Lieutenant watches over the sergeants, the captains (company) watch over the lieutenants, then major (of the regiment) etc. How big is the army before it's too big? Business, has their departments, supervisors watch over them, over which the department heads, managers, etc. on up the ladder. The CFO doesn't know what Joe Schmoe is doing every day down in the accounting department. Churches, different programs have different people watching over them, they in turn are supported by a committee, heads of committees sit on councils, etc. No organization is ever effective if they are not broken down into smaller, manageable groups within it. To think a SM will be able to have an effective troop bigger than 15-20 members without a huge corps of other adults is simply fooling themselves. With an effective patrol method approach, that issue goes away. Because of the structure, an army can never be too big, a business never be too big, a church never be too big, but change the structure and you're going to have to limit the troop because it just can't happen otherwise. Stosh

Shortridge, Whereas one can find an exception for every rule, they can find a rule for every exception. At the premier high adventure camp for BSA, yes there are rules for open burns, there are rules for axes and sheath knives, etc. etc. and we can debate forever on where and when. What bothers me is that a lot of the adventure is trying to find real natural areas instead of the contrived ones we have created. If one canoes the Yukon, I'm thinking there are less rules than other rivers in the US. In the BWCA there are no fire restrictions other than they have to be in official sites and in the fire grates. At least you get to have a fire there. In Ontario CA, one can camp anywhere on the Queen's Land. It's restricted to their own citizens in the southern areas, but eventually when one has gone far enough, they can just stop along the road, set up camp and spend the night in the Canadian outdoors! And still, I have been asked to keep my BSA belt ax and sheath in the camp office because they are not allowed at that particular BSA camp. All I'm saying is that by all the various restrictions one may chance upon, it can in fact take it's toll on the "adventure" aspects of the trip. And who's really going to complain about the boys (hundreds of them) eating nettles. Just don't collect wild rice because there are state laws against doing so. Never thought that it would someday be illegal to go out into the woods like I used to do as a kid. Better make sure one knows all the rules before they leave or they could end up doing something illegal. I had an interesting "brush" with the law once. I was traveling with my brother to an event and as we had our camping gear along, we pulled into a rest area to "rest". We could have slept in the car or we could take a blanket and stretch out on the nice soft grass of the park area. Duh! Easy decision. Well at about 4 o'clock we get awakened by a state trooper asking what we were doing. Resting is what we told him. He insisted we were "camping" and it wasn't allowed in the rest area. He said we would have to move along or sleep in the car. I asked him his name and badge number, his squad car plate number, etc. and all these identification stuff I wrote down on a piece of paper. I asked him if he had a piece of tape so I could tape it on the steering wheel of my car in case I was in an accident when this officer sent me out on the road in no condition to drive. He looked at it and smile and asked about what time I would be rested enough to drive. I said, by 6:00 am. He said he would check back at that time. All I'm inquiring about with this thread is how many of these rules may in fact contribute to the attrition rates in the BSA program? How many of the rules reduce the level of adventure and excitement necessary for our boys to simply enjoy the great-outdoors without having to go to Alaska all the time? I'm thinking the biggest obstacle to retention is boredom and the lack of exciting adventure is primary on the list of what's missing. Stosh

I concur a couple of issues but also disagree on others. If the patrol method is being used, the troop cannot be "too big". When adults say the group is too big, it means that they cannot control the issues it faces and an adult led program will struggle. However, if one looks at the dynamics of the patrol method, it's the only option. Each patrol optimizes at 8 boys. Okay, that means that at any given time there are groups no bigger than 8 to deal with. Why would anyone want to combine them to make matters uncontrollable? Maybe adults may, but then one is trying to run troop method it makes sense and requires the troop to divide up. Of course a divided troop also means twice as many adults to run it, if that be the case. 100 boys? 8 patrols = 80 boys SPL who has a "patrol" of 8 PL's to support. ASPL who has a "patrol" of troop officers (too many troop officers? 2 ASPL's! 1) ASPL and Scribe, 2 QM (lots of equipment), Bugler, Historian, 3 DC's. 2) ASPL and WebMaster, Chaplain Aide, Librarian, 3-4 TG's Just keep the numbers at

I normally don't count a weekend 3 days, only 2. If the boys leave at 5:00 pm on Friday and go to 5:00 pm on Sunday, that's 48 hours or two days of camping with 2 nights in the time period. Your mileage may vary. Stosh

I hear you Jeffrey H, but it doesn't cost anything to go out into the nearby woods, camp and hang out. You needed to eat anyway, so that's a wash. If it's a nice night, a blanket from home will do. Too often we think High Adventure has to be expensive and/or extravagant. If the boys got an opportunity for the football play-offs, they'd figure out how to pay for it. Just need to make it worth their time and money. Stosh

Is dangerous really synonymous with adventure? Maybe watching a bear in the woods is more dangerous than watching a deer. Maybe wading a creek is more dangerous than taking the bridge. Maybe climbing a sheer wall is more dangerous than going up the backside of Mt. Baldy, but there's still a lot of adventure in the alternatives. I'm a firm believer that being outside of four walls has become quite an adventure for most youth in today's society. Walking to school is now dangerous according to most parents. Even the hiking aspects of physical fitness has lost it's adventure. Instead of taking a different route to see what's out there, people go to gyms, walk the malls and play b-ball at the YMCA. Where's the adventure in that. Taking a walk on a rainy day just to enjoy the smells of clean air is still an adventure for me. With roofs, screens, AC/furnaces, electronics, appliances, we have taken the adventure out of life. If the electricity went out in your house, could you go out in the back yard and make dinner? Sleep? Survive? I'm thinking most kids today can't. The natural world is a place of danger to them. In that respect, maybe adventure and danger are synonymous. Stosh

One of the best times I ever had at scout camp was when I took the boys out into a big field and we laid in the grass and found constellations, counted satellites, and just looked at the sky for about 2 hours in silence. I also remember being yelled at by my mom because I was 45 minutes late for lunch one day because I stopped and watched an ant hill. Today I have to remember that it's okay to sleep in a floating canoe, but not a kayak. Ever notice that the cliff you're climbing has bugs and little plants all over it? Vetch is a member of the Pea Family. Poison Ivy can grow 30' up the side of a tree. You can grab salmon out of the stream with your bare hands. I've never sat on my sofa and the thought, "Just another day in paradise." When you pull the trigger during a deer hunt, the fun's over. What's the difference between a Lady Bug and an Asian Beetle? Waking up and going outside to be greeted by a mass migration of Monarch Butterflies is really neat. Starting a fire with flint and steel is cooler than with a match. How many of my boys will never experience what I have? I've played sports, not very well, but I had fun. I've been a musician in high school, college and professionally. I haven't shot hoops for many years, I don't own my horn anymore and I went camping within the last 2 weeks. I had lunch today sitting on the edge of a pond, in the sunlight, getting covered with Asian Beetles, eating a yogurt and getting my dress pants dirty. Loved it~ The adventure is there, it's just that no one ever points it out. Ever wonder why God put Adam and Eve in a garden instead of a house? Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

Why is AOL awarded only once a year? When the boy earns the award, he gets it regardless of when the B/G or end-of-year occurs. He can earn the AOL anytime before he turns 11. To think that because a boy doesn't get all his requirements in before B/G is not BSA policy to state to the boy he missed out. He misses out on his 11th Birthday! Same for the Boy Scout that misses out on his Eagle when he turns 18. There's nothing to say that some boys can't get AOL in February and move on to Boy Scouts immediately if they so chooses. Other boys may want to do the Pinewood Derby and hang with the Cubs for a while, their choice. If that upsets the troop's program, so what, he's not a Boy Scout yet and the troop needs to adjust their program to accommodate their new boys. If some new boy has never camped before summer camp, it's not a big deal, summer camp can accommodate them. I have yet to find a boy that can't quickly figure out what tent is his and get to the mess hall. Summer camps have been taking on last-minute boys for many years, it's not a deal breaker unless some adult gets their undies in a bundle. Maybe it wouldn't be the worse thing in the world for the NSP patrol leader who crossed over in February, has a camporee or other activities under his belt to take under his wing a newbie on the first day of summer camp. After all a few months earlier, they were both in the same den, duh! Adults make too big of a deal about this whole transition thingy. Get a life, make it work for the boys! Stosh

Instead of tying a clove hitch, just tie two half-hitches on the rod. It'll hold just as well. Stosh

The requirement states that the boy needs to do a project to show leadership. It doesn't mean he hasn't shown leadership if the project is not completed. I had a boy clean up a park and finish just before he turned 18. Okay, got his Eagle. But the Park/Rec that was supposed to maintain it, didn't. He has now championed his project to the point where the city went in and re-cleared the park putting it back to where the scout had it, THEN they plowed it level and reseeded it! He has petitioned the city's mayor to turn it back over to the Veteran's groups in the area that started the park 40 years go and couldn't maintain it. He has relentlessly continued to seek funds to put in park benches and tables. Is his project done? Did he get his credit for Eagle? Has he shown enough leadership? Did I create a monster, Dr. Frankenstein? Being an Eagle means more than just showing leadership in a project for credit, it means doing it for the rest of your life, even if you don't need it for credit. So, what's the boy going to do now? Is everything over, or does the park still need benches? Maybe a real Eagle Scout can roll up his sleeves and lead even if he's not getting any credit for it. Stosh

I'm thinking the gentleman who wrote the book "Last Child in the Woods" might be right. We have placed so many rules against what one cannot do in the woods, that the whole realm of what CAN you do is limited and unimaginative. Camping and no fires? only back pack stoves? Where's the adventure in that? If I wanted to cook on gas, I would have stayed at home. Dealing with bears? I see them all the time at the zoo, and it's a real rush to see them in the woods where there are no bars. The bears I saw at Philmont were being trapped and taken out of the area so the boys would be safe. Where's the adventure in that? Whitewater canoeing/kayaking? The rush, the rocks, the ability to fight nature in an active way. No, still water, 50-miles of lake after lake and a few muddy portages. Where's the adventure in that? Marathon trek watching the trail every step of the way so we can get to the next site were there's blackpowder shooting and pole climbing. Where's the adventure in that? Why can't I just sit and watch the deer for a while? Why can't I just sit with my feet in the stream a bit longer and watch the birds nearby? Why can't I eat nettles or cattails? Why can't I use a hand ax to build my fire? Why do the adults have to drag themselves along in herds? 1950 Scout handbook had as 2nd class requirement, go on a hike with patrol and or one other 2nd class buddy cook a meal and do it all on your own. 1st class requirement was the same but with an overnighter and 24 hours. How many of our 21st Century boys would be ALLOWED to earn rank from 70 years ago? NONE. We have taken the outdoor adventure out of scouting, legalized it, "criminalized" it, and disconnected our boys from the outing in Scouting. Why is it our boys know more about environmental ecology than they do about the grass they walk in? I thought I might say that the only nature our kids get today is the walk to school, but that isn't even the norm anymore. All I can say is I'm glad I'm not a kid today. Stosh

Why is it that we start out with hundreds of Tiger Cubs and attrition down to 1 or 2 Eagles and feel that this is an acceptable loss? BSA prides itself on being flexible to handle any and all boys throughout this process. They don't have to excel in academics or sports so there shouldn't be any dropping out because it's too hard. Every single Tiger comes in totally blown away with excitement and hope, and then they leave. Without passing out blame or such, what is it that we aren't doing to retain these boys? Are we not providing the promises made to the Tiger Cubs for unlimited adventure? Are we boring them out of the program? Are we not meeting what they need? Your ideas? I'm thinking the only one's interested in retention seems to be National because of the $$'s involved. Stosh

"Hey watch this!" Here's one that everyone has to be aware of because it might be the last thing that scout ever does! Boys do not learn a whole lot of things, but catchy phrases seem to stick with them. I like my motto because it is easier to digest than: "I told you so." I also like to use phrases that the boys aren't used to hearing. A lot of them are overworked by parents and teachers so that they are guaranteed to go in one ear and out the other. The phrase needs to be owned by the scout before he'll take it to heart. I had one boy who was homesick at summer camp. He was crying in his tent the second night into the week. I called him out on it and told him he was breaking the rule "#3. Have Fun!" It caught his attention because he couldn't deny it. After I let him vent a while I told him I was homesick too. He looked surprised but then I added, "I'm sick of home, so that's why I'm here." It was not something he had heard before. He was anticipating some long song and dance about how great summer camp would be if he just gave it a chance. Those things will not sink in at all and all you'll end up with is a long night of "Yada, yada, yada." Take the 10 most important ideals you wish to convey to the boys and find a short phrase that will stick in that situation. Servant Leadership: "Take care of your boys." Responsibility: "What's the Scout Motto?" Stepping up to the plate: "Who wants to take lead on this activity?" Discipline problems: "Do you want to be as bad as the other guy?" Failure: "Sucks to be you. What are you going to do about it?" or "I bet you don't do that again!" Leadership problems?: "Would you follow someone like you?" I actually had my latest Eagle come to me one day a while back and say "the boys won't listen to me!" I said when he was 11 or 12 you wouldn't listen to me either. What did I do that changed your mind?" He never again made a comment like that and now is a pretty good leader. What's really fun is when the boy knows what you're going to say and you don't. The "Look" works really nice, even better than Sign's Up!. Argumentation: "The effective range of an excuse is zero meters.... do you want me to convert that to feet?" Management: "You can answer my questions with anything but, "I don't know"." What's really fun is when you're doing new scout orientation and I ask the older boys "What's the one answer I never want to hear?" My older boys finally got it right when they answered, "The one answer Mr. B, never wants to hear are the words, "I don't know". The rest of the troop actually cheered the boy when he came up with that answer. Character development: "I'm not here to build up your self-esteem, I'm here to build up your self-confidence." Uniform Inspections: "I see your mother didn't dress you very well today. I'm going to have to have a talk with her." Hands in the pockets, "What is it you are volunteering for?" I find it usually takes only about a year to have the boys assimilate these phrases and actually use them as part of their leadership in the troop. Stosh

Getting one's Scout Handbook soaked has nothing to do with the quality of any tent. It's called a ziplock bag and taking care of one's own responsibilities. Whenever we go camping, I offer to allow any boy on the activity to toss my backpack into the nearest body of water.... But I get to toss in theirs. The boys have been trained. If their stuff gets wet, they get no sympathy from the adults. If my stuff gets wet I don't go whining to the boys, why should they be allowed to come whining to me? My boys know that when they go to summer camp and use their canvas, bring duct tape! It'll get you through the week. Ropes missing.... we have a roll of twine. Stakes? get out in the woods and cut some. If the boys get dealt enough of these challenges, they begin to look forward to the new and unexpected that will arise next year. It was totally a blast to see the boys after their first trip to a new camp. They had asked for the camp-provided stoves thinking they were going to get Colman's. When the wood-burning shepherds stoves appeared in the supply tent they had no idea even what they were! Now they fight over who's going to be cook and get to use the cool stove! The more diversity of situations the boys are exposed to the easier it is for them to develop a strong problem-solving leadership style for the other boys. My boys are considering having a new motto... they were kicking around the idea of: "I bet you don't do that again." Stosh

Your situation sounds very familiar with my local situation. Small troop in town, boy-led, and yet the parents send their boys off to the mega-troop 10 miles out in the country where it's adult-led. Their attrition rate of loss for the first year scouts runs about 75%+. By the time the boys quit they have such a bad taste in their mouths for BSA, they don't go troop shopping, they just quit. Over the past 3 years we have taken on about 7-8 boys, they have taken on 40-50 boys. They had two boys Eagle this year, so did we. I just keep doing what I'm doing, inviting the three packs to consider a boy-led program, invite, invite, invite. Short of kidnapping, there's not much one can do. Parents like the mega-troop idea until they realize their boy isn't getting much out of the program. The T->FC program can leave a slower boy in the dust and will quickly fall behind. They can't afford to not have the new boys at FC because there's another group coming in on their heels. It looks good on the surface, all the boys working quietly on advancement, a time and place for a game. Flawless flag ceremonies, etc. etc. etc. But then there's the boy-led program which always gives a poor first impression and a lot of explanation before the parents buy into the program. Once they do, they're hooked on the program, but getting them there is an up-hill battle to say the least. Best of luck. Just remember, the boys that you do get deserve the best. Don't spend all your time bemoaning the fact that you have a small troop. Go for quality, not quantity. Remember, you have the boys that really want boy-led or they would jump ship in a heartbeat. Also, the measurement of strength is not in size, but in quality of program. Stosh

When I first started on this forum it was a bit confusing the different forum areas. There is a special needs sub-level under Open Discussion-Program. There are also other sub-levels under the High Adventure area. I was on the forum for many years before either 1) I noticed them or 2) they were added. Occasionally people will post in those areas but because of their relative obscurity they aren't used much. Stosh

Never say never! John, If one has a boy with mangled leg and will bleed to death in the back country where time is vital, a tourniquet is appropriate. Sacrifice the limb, save the life. When I was taking EMT-A training, it was part of the curriculum. While those are advanced techniques for professionals, discussing it with the boys as they go through the material enhances their resources for intelligent decision making, a key component in effective leadership. Yeah, the medical world of training changes almost daily. Even CPR has taken many changes over the past 30 years since I first learned. I used to be a CPR Instructor for professionals, now I'm just basic CPR trained. However, the references of past experiences also helps explain the current methods. This is why I use the Green Bar Bill materials. Even though some of the stuff is not current ideology, the basic premises of leadership never change. Would I ever consider not using it in the future? NEVER! Stosh

There are three annual training/requirements for ALL my boys. Even if they weren't holding an office, they should know what leadership is and how it is demonstrated in the patrols/troop. If they aren't trained, how can they ever step up to a position when they haven't been trained? How can they think they can do the job if they don't know what it entails? A little too much cart before the horse thingy for me. 1) Annual swim test (twice) 2) Toten Chip 3) Leadership training. TLT/JLT and the Green Bar Bill material. The swim test is done twice a year. Once when they go to the local school pool in the winter for a swim outing and again at the beginning of summer camp. They are all tested to make sure their skills haven't slipped since the last test. Too many safety issues to think that the Toten Chip is a one time training event. Too much leadership training has never been a problem. Not enough, is. Stosh

We can play the word games all day long and never get anywhere. SSScout has the right idea, RESPECT. If that is conveyed, the rest doesn't matter. As an interesting side note, it is the Color Guard of the Color Company which is the historical term for the group that bears the flag. Notice that it isn't the Colors Guard or the Colors company so presenting the Colors is in fact incorrect. The Color pertains to one flag, more than one flag represents the Colors, so if there is only one flag it is present the Color. Try that some time. The original Color guard represented 12 people. They stood on the left end of the Color Company so they were in fact never out front, but marked the center of a regiment of men. This way everyone in the regiment knew their position relative to the flag. Most Color Guards only needed one Color, either the country's flag or the regimental color. Some times they carried both colors and in the case of the 8th WI Regiment of Volunteers, they also carried Old Abe the War Eagle. That was not a military norm even for that day and age. The men in the regiment stood in two ranks, but the Color Guard had three ranks for four men. When the regiment went forward the Colors moved ahead of the regiment to show the way the regiment was to march, the 2nd and 3rd ranks filled the 1st and 2nd ranks so they held a place for them to move back to once the firing of the regiment began. No one wants to be down range when people are firing, duh! The purpose of the 12 men were to make sure the flag was protected because once it dropped, the 1000 men of the regiment lost all reference on the field of battle. It was imperative to make sure it was visible at all times. When we do flag ceremonies, obviously we are not doing it in a hostile environment and the location of the flag is not important. So the mini-recreation of the Color Guard is a ceremony of respect and nothing else. There are a few guidelines as to where it is supposed to end up, i.e. the right of the speaker, but for the most part it is merely symbolic in nature. I have seen plenty of inappropriate displays of the flags over the past 60 years, but for the most part, the participants were trying their best of show their respect. For this I cannot fault them. This past weekend at University of Scouting, I attended the Flag Etiquette session and one of the scouters commented how difficult it was to spread a huge flag over the local baseball diamond without it touching the ground. I'm sure it was difficult, but more importantly it was inappropriate because to display the flag horizontally is not allowed by civilians in the flag code. It should always be displayed elevated and flying free. However, when everyone in the stands stands up and sings the national anthem, I really can't fault them no matter how inappropriate they are. Stosh

LOL! As a CW reenactor, I can attest to that! There's a lot to be said about the tried and true. Just because it's new and improved, doesn't always make it better. Stosh