Stosh

Eagle COH's and COH's aren't a whole lot different in our troop. ECOH might be held on a weekend so that relatives and outside guests can make it. COH's are on meeting nights. Planning, running, and attendance expectations remain the same. Stosh

I suppose it all depends on the way the process is perceived. The boys that receive perks for wearing the uniform correctly is not the same as punishment for those who don't. I had a boy show up for a SMC with no necker and no book. Do I postpone it until he gets his act together or deal with those issues in the SMC? Those that come prepared usually have shorter SMC's than those that don't. No one gets punished, but there are certain advantages for doing it right. None of the boys are punished or penalized for not attending a COH or meeting, but those that do, usually end up getting perks over those who are truant. Stosh

I'm an adult and so not many ever question why I carry a light-weight belt axe/sheath knife combo when camping and canoeing. When the rare occasion occurs when it is questioned, I merely switch it out with a heavier combo knife/axe that says "BSA" on it. The discussion veritably changes to, "Cool, can I see that?" To which I answer, "No, it's on my belt in a sheath where it belongs and I would need to take my belt off to show you and my pants might fall down." A small belt axe is a great tool in the woods. To outlaw it would be a real shame. Stosh

In our troop COH attendance is not optional. Just like any other event, you are expected to be there. We hold it on the 5th Monday of the month when it occurs and being on scout meeting night, there should be very little, if any other conflicts with it. My boys show up whether they are getting anything or not. The only difference is we have a half hour ceremony followed by refreshments. It is totally run by the boys who set up chairs, set up the program, MC the event and present all the awards by patrol leaders to their patrol members. The SPL awards to PL's. As SM I am offered a few moments to make any comments I wish to make. Other than that, the Advancement ASM hands me the cards to sign and then my comments followed by a cup of coffee. Stosh

Ours is on the fifth Monday of the month. I think that happens 4 or 5 times a year. Stosh

In my present troop all expenses are picked up for the SM and 1 ASM on every event. All adult leaders have their training paid for 100%. Costs for any activity are calculated at X number of boys plus X number of leaders divided by number of boys. No parent has ever questioned the policy. If there is any shortfall due to unforeseen circumstances, the troop picks up the cost. According to my CC, the SM and ASM's donate their fair share of the event in time and effort for the boys and the financial considerations are the responsibility of the boys and troop (if necessary). Just recently my newest ASM was able to pick up his basic training at summer camp at no cost and this past summer/fall the troop picked up the cost of his WB training. It would sound like maybe we are an exception to how the other troops do it. I did not submit any cost to the troop for Jambo because it was not a troop activity, but they offered to pay for some of it because I had half the troop attending the Jambo. I didn't think it was necessary, and it was my call. Stosh

I would think it rather harsh to have a boy not be part of a MB that everyone else in the troop gets to do together just because his dad is the counselor. It is equally harsh to have a boy drive major amount of miles to get to a MB counselor when there's a registered one with the troop that just happens to be the scout's parent. Nope, doesn't sound Friendly, Helpful, or Thrifty in many respects. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

To a certain extent one has to get their "nose out of the book" and just enjoy the kids you have. Take a break, take a hike, break it up a bit, play a game of their choosing, etc. I made the mistake when I was a Webelos II leader. I made it so much fun the boys torpedoed me at the Blue/Gold. The boys all earned their Readyman pins and when the CM handed out the award to one of the boys, he asked him what he had done to earn the pin. The boy gave him a deer-in-the-headlight look. He had no idea. It kinda put me on the spot! Then the CM smiled and asked the boy if he had done any first aid kinds of things, and the boy lit up and rattled on about the stretcher races, bandaging, making slings out of neckers, etc. that the CM finally had to interrupt him and move on with the program. Make it fun and enjoy it yourself. Stosh

Hi, I think we've talked before. Welcome! Stosh

It's nice that in your situation with both programs well run and staffed with good leaders a decision is a moot point. I would have your son make the sole decision based on what he wants because either way, he's making a good decision. He's the one that will benefit by taking complete ownership in the process and unless he asks for help, just let him fly with it. Of course if down the road a bit he feels he's made a poor choice, he can always switch. Again he can't go wrong. A little coaching such as asking if he wants the bigger or smaller, where are his buddies going, etc. might help him focus, but there are advantages and disadvantages of both the bigger/smaller troops, but when it comes down to it, only your son knows for sure what he might like. Stosh

From your comments, you'll do well Platypus96. Hang in there, hope springs eternal, but you have a long leadership road ahead of you. Sounds exciting! Congrats! Stosh

Last meeting I was reviewing the historic handbooks with the boys and we were going through the requirements for first class. Yep, Morse Code was a requirement. I flippantly said, back in my day, we were real scouts. One of the boys said it wasn't any big deal, he knew Morse Code. I quizzed him and sure enough, he knew it. He walks to school every day, up hill in the snow, too. Stosh

With the camp's permission you might want to go out a few days earlier and "bomb" the cabin. They have aerosol cans of insecticides that people use to fumigate their homes and after reading the labels carefully one should be able to fumigate the cabin before the boys arrive. I have had pets most of my adult life but take them on vacation with me so it was a tradition to fumigate the house just before I left. I would clean up afterwards when I got home and neither my pet nor family ever was in danger. Be sure to see if the particular insecticide you are using will kill bed bugs. Your mileage may vary. Stosh

Wow, sounds like you, your buddy and a handful of others are the only ones with real leadership ability. My suggestion: (again, it's only a suggestion) is to adopt the approach that a good SM/adult should be doing with a troop like the one you are describing. Baden Powell told the adults that they should not do anything a boy is capable of doing for himself. This means that you, your SPL buddy and any PL's that wish to function as leaders, needs to start expecting the boys to carry their own weight. This means that if something doesn't get done because they refuse to do the work, it simply does not get done! If the boys are all standing around waiting for you to do the work for them, then the work doesn't get done. Many years ago when I was dealing with my dog, the brand of dog food we normally got was no longer available. My ex-wife was concerned that the dog wasn't eating the new stuff. I told her not to worry because when it got hungry it would "learn" to eat it. The dog wasn't so stupid it couldn't figure it out. If the old stuff was never going to be served up, it would have to deal with the new stuff. She lived to be 15 years old and so it must have worked. If another patrol wants you to do their work, politely respond, "that's not my responsibility" and walk away. If they have NOT been shown how to do something, use EDGE and make sure they know how to do it and then walk away. The more you encourage them by doing it for them, the more they will take advantage of you. Train them, then walk away. That is how a Scout is Helpful. You don't need to get in any hassles about it, simply state the obvious and walk away. If the boys won't get water when asked, when they get thirsty, they will figure out how to use the tap at the water source. It may take twice as long to get things done, but out of necessity, the adults will eventually make sure it gets done. When a boy asks you a question their PL should be answering, like a trained adult, answer: Talk to your PL. If they don't like the food, let them scrounge from the adults. That's not your problem, don't make it one. Instead, prepare really nice meals for your two-man patrol, continue to recruit the better scouts, and eventually THEY will complain to the SM to make some changes. In my former troop they were eating some really crappy meals and I would refuse to eat with the boys. I always ate by myself. However, I had hit my recipe book and was eating such things as sweet-and-sour pork over rice out of a mess kit while they were boiling a few dozen hot dogs. They were eating foil dinners while I was having hamburger/onion gravy over mashed potatoes with glazed carrots. (All the same ingredients of a foil dinner prepared in a different manner.) It didn't take long for them to figure it out! Lead by example! You don't actually have to leave the troop but you CAN lead from the back seat! If your meals are really great, even better than the adults, they will come to scrounge from you. Give them the recipe and suggest that next campout they try it, but this time there's only enough for the two of you. Lead by example! I suggest: that in your mind you clearly define the expectations you have for leadership and then stick to it no matter how much whining and complaining comes your way (from youth or adult). Eventually they will figure out that you aren't going to do it for them, and change their ways. (Eventually they will figure out that they're going to have to accept a different dog food) My dog figured it out, so can they. Be helpful to all the other boys, offer assistance when you are able, not when they demand it. Do your part to hold up the troop, but realize you have your limits to only your responsibility. In this case TEACH, if they don't learn, too bad. If the adults start on your case about not doing other people's work, explain to them just that, it's their job to do it and that you have your own responsibilities to do. Take your time, do it right, set up a model camp every time the two-man patrol goes out. Make it an example of what the boys could have if they ever started doing things. If you plan it out right, setting up a tent, cook area, dining fly, campfire pit, etc. for just your patrol on a Friday night, should kill off all the time so there won't be any necessity on your part to run off and do someone else's work! I'm assuming the SPL is your other buddy? If he's off at SPL meetings, etc. then you will need to keep yourself busy setting up this model campsite all by yourself. I can't see how you would find time to babysit another patrol! That's their PL's problem, don't make it yours. If an adult comes and hassles you about not helping, simply state "With all due respect, Mr. SM, I believe it is the responsibility of the PL to get their patrol site set up and I have my hands full with my own." It expects the adults to be adults! If they won't, then it's not your problem. Hang in there, you're going to make a great SM some day!! Stosh

"Stosh, thank you for that reply. Unfortunately, the patrol leaders will no bemuch help." Here's a suggestion: Your PL's need training. If they are going to take on the position of responsibility (POR) and wear the patch they have to do the job. They need training as to what that job is! The SM's responsibility is to have them trained. If a boy gets credit for a POR and isn't doing the job he is not fulfilling his requirements and is gaining rank dishonestly. Doing one's best is not sitting around collecting credit for not doing one's job. "My troop prides itself on not turning away any scouts, so most of our scouts have been asked to leaveother troops because of behavioral issues. Most of the patrol leaders upset easily when asked to help with running the troop, so the SPL ends up with the responsibilty of leading 30+ scouts." If the SM isn't doing his job of training, it is an issue that needs to be addressed in the troop committee. There is no way a scout should be expected to deal with the troop as a whole especially with boys that have behavioral problems. Training, and quickly is the only solution! "He has been asking me forhelp with this, but now the CC is upset that I am doing so much without being in a leadership position." That's too bad for the CC. Any scout that steps up to help is doing servant leadership and should be encouraged not hassled. Why is the CC upset. He should be upset with the SM for not supporting the boys. "I am the only other scout we have above eighth grade that actually helps the SPL, because the others think that he is disrespectful to them. He isn't, they justthink that being we to get water on a campout is him picking on them." Sounds like a bunch of shirkers that want a babysitter and not a functioning SPL. The PL of the patrol should be informed that his boys need to get water and it is up to the PL to get it done. That's his job, not the SPL's. "We try to dothings before the adults step in, but they seem to always ask about a problem before it becomes a problem. Because of the large amount of learning disabilities and behavioral issues, they do not trust the boys to lead the other scouts alone." But they expect the SPL to do it? Sounds like they are shirking their responsibilities too. The adults need to back and support the SPL, not judge, criticize and harass. "No one ever voeshungry, because if they don't like what their patrol cooked they just get food from the adults." This is because the adults enable it rather than deal with the problems of the troop. If the boys can't cook for themselves properly, they have not earned the rank of First Class. "They also ask my patrol to we. Up tents and clean for other patrols, because we are the only ones that know how." They are shirking their responsibility. If these are First Class scouts, obviously they have gotten their ranks without earning them. All FC scouts should be able to function at an outdoor activity without having to be babysat. "We try to teach the other boys, but they don't listen since they know well have to do it for them anyway." If this be the case, then you are not training them, you are merely encouraging lazy behavior on their part. Let them fail. They have already failed, but don't realize it yet as long as you and your buddy keep covering up for them. "Funny thing is, I'm in a two person patrol." Find six other boys and get them into your patrol. Find the ones that want to make the troop successful and train them and set the example for the others to follow. Keep your camp 300' from the others. Kudu would expect this and in your situation it is necessary. At least a few of you would benefit from the activities even if the rest are just goofing off. If all goes down the drain for the troop, at least you will have 8 well trained boys to recharter and get things going again. When one expects nothing from the boys, that's exactly what they get... nothing. I would suggest (again, it's your leadership that will be necessary, not my say-so) you get your unit commissioner involved, the SM and CC trained for their positions, insist on boy-led (you two have a good start) and use the patrol-method and insist and expect the patrols to be functional. From your description, and it's only one side of the story, your troop sounds totally dys-functional! Everyone is running around doing nothing except find someone to blame for the messes that are guaranteed to come along. This is 100% the example I would ever give as to why adult-led, troop-method just won't work! The SM is abdicating his responsibility to the SPL and then blaming him for when things go wrong. I would suspect the SM can't handle the 30+ boys, but somehow he feels some young SPL can???? I don't think so. Stosh

I kinda go a tad bit with Calico says, but not entirely. I fall into 83Eagle's camp. The uniform of anyone identifies their role or function. If I needed assistance in a traffic accident, police, firefighters and EMT's all over in uniform, I'm going to be able to know who it is I'm to seek out for my specific problem. If the car's on fire, I'm not going to seek out an EMT! If the other guy won't give me his insurance information, I'm not going to seek out a firefighter. LOL, I'm surely not going to discuss my ED problem with a 14 year-old candy striper either! It's not an issue of who's better than whom, but an issue of where do I direct my attention. The uniform tells the world what they can expect from the person wearing it. Protection -- police and military, rescue -- firemen and EMT's, etc. However, I'm from the old fart generation where HOW the uniform would tell the world what they could expect as well. If I'm spit and polish, I tell the world something far different than if I'm only wearing say, maybe, half the uniform. It's an attitude/pride kind of thingy that I wish to convey. Now some 3rd World dictator may take this to the extreme and give the impression of arrogance/haughty, but they aren't fooling anyone. However, this attitude and pride is reflect in how they wear the chosen uniform. If the uniform is complete, clean and looks like they have put some time and effort into it, it speaks differently than those that just get by with half a uniform whether it be clean and pressed or wrinkled and dirty. It still doesn't measure up to the level of pride the uniform deserves. I see a lot of veterans wearing their old uniforms and it doesn't make one iota bit of difference how many stripes or amount of brass that is on it. If it has been maintained, cared for, and put on with pride, I react emotionally and profoundly thankful. If he's dragged it out of a box, put it on wrinkled and goes out in public, I am still thankful, but it just doesn't speak to me in the same way. I was once visiting in Calgary CA and was in a gift shop when I noticed a large number of youth there. They were all in various civilian dress. However, they all wore bright yellow neckers. I knew they were Canadian Scouts immediately and struck up a conversation with some of them. However, I'm thinking I would have been totally blown away if I saw them all in full uniform. That would have been impressive! But then again, I'm an old fart. Stosh

Hmmm. Beavah, you make some good points, but assume things that I don't. First of all, of the boys are "working on Star" at the same time, anyone of the boys could be PL. They are all equally trained to do so. They don't need older boys to lead them. But if one of the boys in the patrol already takes a heads-up and starts suggesting that they work on this MB or that MB, he will naturally fall into the PL role and the patrol still functions just fine. There is no need for older scouts to take over all the leadership positions. If they need them for POR, then vie for them. Offer up oneself to lead a patrol of struggling boys, but don't assume that the adults are going to automatically put you there because you need POR. If they do, they're pretty much shooting themselves in the foot with their troop leadership. The NSP is just starting their second year, all FC, and some other scout from a different patrol says he needs POR and will be their PL. Who's the outsider here? I'm thinking that just isn't going to bode well for that patrol. If one breaks up the first year boys into all the patrols, then the goal of all the patrols is to get these boys oriented and all high adventure planning for the older boys goes out the window, or the attention gets divided into two diametrical goals and neither is done well. In the NSP, NONE of the boys are PL material to begin with, but with the careful guidance of functioning TG and Instructors, they should be able to quickly figure it out. But now they step out of their NSP roles into older boy patrols, what are their chances of putting to use what they have just learned? Not much, the new guy on the block isn't going to get a chance to lead until he becomes the old guard of the patrol. I'm seeing a major gap in their leadership development at this point. If they stayed on as a "Star" patrol (2nd year patrol) they will be able to have at least a few of them retain their leadership role development without having to compete against more experienced scouts. The "arbitrary mixing by adults" comment was the announcement by the adults, that now that the boys are no longer NSP they will "move up" into "real" patrols? Heck, they are already a real patrol that has been working, developing and becoming a real patrol. Let them stay that way if they want to! If an older patrol wishes to recruit young blood from the younger boys to preserve their heritage as a prestigious patrol, no problem, recruit away! Any boy that doesn't maintain their "level" will be better helped by his pards than being put in a "flunked" patrol that needs special help to get caught up. I guess I just like the idea that a lot of progress for each boy is a result of group assistance. I hear a lot of leadership problems being identified on the forum with leadership being challenged by other boys. PL's who are leading boys that are their buddies is going to have a lot less hassle fulfilling his role of leadership than with boys that aren't his buddies. Too often I see young leadership being set up to fail by stirring the pot of the troop. Also, the accepted level of attrition in the troop will naturally reduce the number of the older boys' patrols. They could at their discretion, merge, recruit, or whatever, just like a troop would do when it's numbers dwindle. Maybe the two Venture Patrols would work together on a trip to Philmont, kinda enjoy working together, get to know how the others work and may just announce when they get back that they are going to merge into one patrol. So be it. It's just fine with me. Or maybe a Venture Patrol of all "Life" scouts works in a similar fashion with a "Star" patrol of younger boys. Same outcome could happen. Maybe a "Star" patrol who lost 4 boys to first year attrition, may actively recruit the 4 new Webelos boys that are coming into the troop. Nothing wrong with that either. The first year, the Star PL rotates each of the 4 Webelos through the APL position, giving guidance and mentoring leadership (APL doesn't count for POR anyway, no harm, no foul) and the other three take on responsibility of Instructors (now all 4 Star scouts have a POR), training not only their 4 Webelos, but maybe the 2nd or 3rd NSP's at the same time in a bigger troop. It works. It is totally endless the different combinations one can come up with to maintain leadership and organization in the troop and keep the boys relatively "segregated" into common goal patrols. It just makes more sense to me to keep them goal oriented than putting Webelos cross over scouts in with the patrol making plans to go to Philmont because they need a boy or two to fill out the roster of their patrol. I'm thinking they aren't going to get the necessary attention needed to get them oriented to the troop the first year. Your mileage may vary. Stosh

Platypus96 points out a very common element in problemed troops. I see it all the time, and is most evident when the "leader" is younger than others. In the opening few pages of the PL handbook, there is a one time vague reference to servant leadership. As SPL, in theory he should be well aware of how this works. If not it might be a good idea to review it once more. Being "leader" using the direct command style of management will work only if one is in the position of being able to enforce it. As PL one only needs to keep 7 others in line. Most kids, even if necessary, can bully others into getting the work done. However, if there are those whose leadership is stronger, the traditional "p----ing match" develops and both vie for top-dog position. Sounds a wee bit like some of this is happening in the politics amongst the boy leadership. That's really not the SM's fault. The second problem one has with the troop-method is the fact that the SPL is expected to lead the whole troop. Good luck. I don't see many boys with leadership skills to effectively do that. I see very few adults with the leadership skills to pull it off either in 25+ sized troops. Heck, professional teachers are just barely comfortable with class sizes of 25+. They have absolute rule and it doesn't always work out for them. So, if this gentleman wishes to develop some actual leadership dynamics in the group he will need to divide and conquer. As SENIOR PL, work with the PL's to get them functioning in their patrols. Start using the patrol method and keep the combined forces of the troop at bay. Obviously from your initial comment, you believe in the abilities of this boy. You are "just" the OA Rep. Okay, you're getting credit for advancement maybe, but as a troop officer, you can take on the job of being an JASM and mentor him in his leadership development. A coach doesn't run any plays, an orchestra director makes no sound, and the driver's ed teacher sits in the passenger seat. Lead from the back. Do what it takes to make him look good. Quietly offer up suggestions and observations that he might want to address but may be missing. Be the first to put Sign's Up when the group disrupts him. Suggest (Servant Leadership 101) that he address only the PL's of which he is responsible for. If someone is acting up in someone's patrol, direct the comments to the PL. This puts the onus on the PL to start functioning properly. If the older PL's aren't cooperating, suggest to the SPL he offer up his help in assisting that PL to get his patrol under control. If he demands the PL do something he will get resistance. If it is suggested and the PL ignores it, an adult will eventually step in and assist the SPL as well. If this SPL is ultimately responsible for the troop he has two options. 1) he can direct the whole troop (good luck!) or he can direct/suggest the PL's to actually step up and lead their patrols. Patrol #1 - Flags, Patrol #2 - Lesson, Patrol #3 - game, Patrol #4 - Camporee planning, Patrol #5 - Popcorn Sales, etc. Rotate it and expect the PL's to follow through on their leadership. The idle hands are the Devil's Workshop. Have the SPL keep the PL's busy with their responsibilities and he won't have to worry about the troop as a whole. The troop is too big to be doing it for himself, divide up the responsibility and expect others assist in the leadership. If you will notice I only had one minor comment on the adults, discipline when necessary. That can be corrected by you stepping in before they do and assist. This is the key to boy-led, beat the adults to the punch! The more this boy keeps the adults out of the way with your assistance, the greater the chance he will have to actually lead. Come prepared with an outline of patrol assigned responsibilities, be brief with your explanation of expectations, and follow up with any assistance any PL might be having with his patrol's compliance. At the end of each meeting have the PL's give a report on any on-going planning a patrol may be involved in, i.e. Venture Patrols plans for Philmont, etc. I find that if one outlines the structure of expectations and constantly asks for a review of progress, the PL's will be too busy to sit around idly and think of ways to get the SPL in trouble. I have taught my boys that any time an adult steps in and interferes with their leadership they have an obligation to politely say, "With all due respect, Mr. SM, (ASM, CC, whatever), that's my leadership responsibility, please allow me the opportunity to do it." If they balk at that, politely ask, "Is there a specific issue you wish to help me with in doing it?" Never take your eye off the ball that leadership is one's own responsibility, but others are there to help you with constant improvement. I hope these suggestions may give you some assistance in helping this boy. Your mileage may vary. Stosh

I guess what I was getting at was aged based would imply that all 14 year-olds would be grouped together regardless of rank, interest, friendship, etc. I just don't see how that would work all that well. But if a group of boys all working on their Eagle projects together would be advantageous regardless if they were 14, 15, 16 or 17. At least they're all in the same boat together. However if the 14 year olds, all working on say Life rank all of a sudden had a bunch of 12 year olds that just got out of a NSP and some hadn't reached FC yet, it would drastically change the dynamics of the patrol. The arbitrary mixing by adults may cause a number of the boys to consider other options than BSA. I don't see how that "theory, analogy" is very confusing. It's basic group dynamics. If I'm tossed into a group of people I really don't want to be associated with for any reason, it'll be my motivation to aggregate to a different option. That's basically why my whole patrol, en mass, went into Civil Air Patrol when we turned about 14 or 15. We had been a den in Cubs, a patrol in Scouts, and when the SM wanted to change things around, it was out the door for all 6 of us. We stayed in CAP throughout the rest of high school. I don't know if any one of us made the suggestion, but we all decided together what our next step was going to be. It's pure speculation, but had we been left alone, we might have all Eagled together. By the way, we were all the same age, same interests, and been friends for a very long time. Stosh

Maybe a definition of what people mean by a mixed patrol might be helpful. A lot of discussion around mixed "aged" groups vs mixed groups. Mixed aged group could mean all the boys 13-17 that qualify for high adventure, but to me it is not a mixed patrol. For example: All the new scouts in one patrol (NSP). They might have a TG to help them get started, organized etc. They might have an Instructor or two to help them through T-FC, etc. But the patrol stays as is. Okay some of the boys screw around and don't get FC but 2/3rds of them do. They can if they wish, take the 2-3 NSP's (a mega troop will have more than one NSP) and reform a patrol of like minded, same rank boys so they can now expand a bit and all work towards Star together. They're experienced so they could do a few patrol activities on their own, etc. If they decided it would be good to go to Camp X while the rest go off to Camp Y, so be it. I would think that if the 1/3rd of the non-FC boys were but just a handful of requirements away, there shouldn't be a rule to break them up. That would punish them unjustly. The other option is for the older NSP boys reform a reorganized patrol which would focus on 2nd/1st Class requirements that they need to finish up. The new batch of Webelos II's come in and form their NSP's and start working on TF. Their levels of scouting are different even though they are both considered NSP's because they aren't yet to FC. Any patrol that doesn't want to break up will work extra hard to keep everyone on the same page and progress together as a team. If they aren't totally successful don't punish them by breaking up their team. Now the older boys FC+ start deciding on their MB's as a patrol maybe, camp together, take some time to get their non-FC boys up to speed, if Philmont opens up, they can all go and the patrol stays together. They don't have to break apart for special occasions leaving some of their buddies behind. If anyone gets left behind it's their own personal decision. They all have equal opportunity to go. Maybe they fund-raise the cost of Philmont together as a patrol so some of the boys that might not be able to afford it can without being singled out or left out, make it to Philmont. They work as a team taking care of each other. If this patrol has a TF or two in it, that means by rules some can't go and won't be inspired to work with the rest of the patrol and team-work and esprit-de-corps takes a hit. Worse yet, the "older boys" get to do the fun stuff and the rest of us can't. Patrols need the bonding, teamwork, etc. dynamics to function properly. We spend all the time sending our boys to COPE to build teamwork and then keep shuffling the deck so they don't get a chance to practice it. At our council camp, individual boys sign up for COPE. Why aren't patrols signing up? That system doesn't make sense to me. Okay, now the new "Star" patrol needs POR's. Okay, the first thing that occurs to me is PL, ASPL and 6 instructors a mega troop can have more than one instructor. They focus on creating lessons to go back and train the NSP's coming in or tutor the revised NSP boys get to FC. The skills are still fresh having just completed them. It's a great way to reinforce their just learned skills. The "Life" POR's Okay they can take on the QM, Scribe, etc. stuff and maybe offer back a few TG's to the NSP. Okay, they're all troop officers, but their are in their own "Leadership Corp" type of patrol anyway. No disruption to any other patrol going on here. The "Eagle" patrol... well they just hang out and have a ton of fun and become de facto ASM's filling in where ever they are needed. Does that mean that 14 year old Eagles are in the same patrol as 17 year old Eagles? Yep. Are they a mixed patrol, Nope. Can you have a "mixed" patrol of Star/Life/Eagle? Sure, why not. They can still work MB's together, do Troop POR's, and it doesn't interfere in anyway with the patrol structure/method. One can make the case for these being mixed aged patrols, but to me they are not mixed patrols. They have common friendships, common levels of expertise, common level of interests, common opportunities, etc. and if the "Eagle" patrol sets their patrol camp up 10' from the adults, so what. If they want to camp 500' away and hang out, so what. It's their choice. I don't think these natural divisions amongst buddies would be considered mixed patrols, but they could be mixed "AGED" patrols. Your mileage may vary. Stosh

Not a problem, for the first time ever, we get to take a thread and go off on a hundred different tangents and not have anyone have an excuse to complain! I clicked on the .. just because it looked interesting! Stosh

I use only liquid for backpacking because of it's versatility. All the stoves do pretty much the same, so I'm not into the fine intricacies of each stove. I do know in cold weather the butane does freeze up and the liquids don't evaporate in the generators so my solution to the problem is to have a convertible stove setup. I have an old 2 burner white-gas Colman that I have had for many years. In the winter I use white-gas and lighter gel (flammable napalm in a tube) on the generator to get it pre-heated before starting to light with the gas that otherwise won't evaporate in a cold generator. This solves the problem of cold weather. In the summer I like the ability to use propane, so I have a propane generator that simply fits into the stove through the same hole as the white-gas generator but has an on/off valve and connects to any propane source. Same stove, best of both worlds. I use my white-gas one-burner backpack stove only in the summer. When it gets cold around here, I go to wood. There's not much chance of setting the woods on fire when there's 2' of snow all around. I'm thinking however, the napalm on the backpack stove generator, theoretically will do the same as on my two-burner Colman. The name of the game is to get the liquid gas to evaporate so it will burn. A pre-heated generator should do the trick. Stosh

Seriously? Do you think the SM's didn't have a clue as to what was going on? For example, 75% of the boys mysteriously disappear out of camp just after sunset, 25% of the boys have taken up "post" around the perimeter of the camp, and the SM can't figure out what's going on? I don't think so. Back in the day the patrol yell was the call to bring your boys back to camp because you were being overrun by someone else. If it got really out of hand, the bugler sounded Assembly! They brought back the historic Stealth MB, we were just putting that into practice. Morse Code signals were flying all over the place as each troop positioned themselves in the raids. Organizational skills by patrols as to what part of the camp each patrol was to pull stakes. You followed your PL's instructions. Pulling stakes was very much akin to counting coup back in the days of early American history. Rules against it? Nope. Don't remember any. The key to success was once your tent went down, leave it, they can't do anymore to you that night unless they get up and do a 2:00 am raid. Hazing? NEVER! I was 4' 11" tall and weighed in at a whopping 98 pounds until I got my growth spurt at the end of my sophomore year of high school. I may have been hazed a ton, but I was also the center of attention for everyone that way and I didn't mind it one bit. I may have been the smallest in the troop, but when it came to "Looking for Girl Scouts" my size meant I could do it the best. I could hide in places the bigger guys only wished they could! Also being the best outdoorsman in the group, meant that along with the hazing, I was sought out for the scoutcraft skills and picked first. Somehow I always felt that it balanced itself out over the long run. If one is interested in what being the smallest, most hazed boy in the troop, just go back and read the PeeWee Harris historical novels by P. K. Fitzhugh. Yes, that's the same PeeWee we have around today in BSA literature. Ever wonder where WALTER Harris got the nickname PeeWee? After the four years I put in Scouting I don't remember being chastised by the SM ever. And when all was said and done, I probably knew as many boys outside of my troop as within. I don't know if that's the case today. Rules against hazing? When did they make that a rule? I hope they meant that the boys aren't supposed to haze other boys, because if they meant the SM isn't supposed to haze the boys, I'm in trouble. Does that means I can't call my Scout->Eagle->ASM Slug anymore??? My best haze was when a young Tenderfoot came to me an asked for the keys to the troop trailer, is QM older brother told him he needed to get a Dutch oven lifter-sifter out of it. I told the boy that he had to go back and find the QM and have him help look for it and don't come back without it. After about a half hour the two of them came back and the QM had a rather sheepish grin on his face, but had gone along with it knowing he had got caught red-handed in the joke. Obviously they didn't have the Dutch oven lifter-sifter and for the next 5 minutes the QM (Star rank) got chewed out for not doing his job as QM by not having one in the trailer and that it wouldn't bode well for him to not be doing his job when it came time for SMC and Life BOR. I kept it up until he fessed up to his younger brother, who was totally clueless to the prank and was kinda feeling bad he got his older brother into so much "trouble". The only "rule" I have had over all the years of working with youth is that one cannot play a prank/haze unless it falls within the boundaries of the Scout Law AND they have to had the prank pulled on them as a newbie. Have the boys hazed ME? Sure, why not. I've had a ton of experience on the receiving end as well. How do you think I ever found out about the mint grass? Rules? Have only three. 1) Be safe 2) Look and act like a Scout 3) Have fun I learned those as a scout many moons ago. After 40 years of working with youth I've followed those rules and have never, ever come close to burning out! Stosh

Beavah, Just because I run a small troop now, doesn't mean that it's always been that way. As far a organizing youth and recruiting, back in the mid '70's I work putting together 42 Explorer posts that serviced over 1000+ youth of the community. I have worked with Cub Scout packs that dealt with 125+ cubbies. I have worked in and with scout troops of sizes ranging from 5 to 50+. I have worked with Venturing crews that have involved 25+ boys working together with up to 50 other adults at events involving thousands of reenactors. I have been senior advisor for church youth groups that have involved 70+ youth at gatherings, conventions, mission trips and activities. I have personally observed what works and what doesn't work. People don't have to listen to me and if they so decide, I wish nothing but the best for whatever format they choose to use. However, if they don't have the magnitude of experience I have, maybe an ounce or two of suggested advice might trigger something for them that they can use. By the way, the smallness of the troop I serve is by choice. I prefer the effectiveness of the one-on-one I can have with the boys verses the mega troops/groups where getting to know the boys has too often take second place. Can I do it? Sure. Do I want to? Maybe not. Of the two troops in town I am SM of the smaller of the two. The other is maybe 3-4 times larger than us. They put out two Eagles last year and so did we. The difference between the two is not a judgment call of which is better or worse. It's just that considering the skills I have, I like the opportunity to offer high quality one-on-one to the boys I serve. By the way, it wouldn't be a problem if my current troop grew to 80+ boys, I know how to organize them, train them, assist them in their leadership/character goals and I strongly believe the boy-led, patrol-method organization of the BSA is the best way to get them there. I don't believe it works, I know it works. Been there done that. Your mileage may vary.... Stosh

We never had rock fights, but the days of camp raids ended with the free-standing tents. You pull the stakes and nothing happens. Heck, if you didn't get your campsite raided 2-3 times during the night at a camporee, you were not a popular troop. How many patrol flags can you collect in one night? I have one one of my two front teeth chipped due to a camporee a long time ago. Kinda screwed with my saxophone playing, but I managed. I ended up in the dirt my first summer camp because the boys would travel from one tent to another by rolling under the wall tent walls and hiding under the occupants cot to hide from the SM, sometimes knocking them into the dirt. A large bundle of Canadian thistle under the cot solved that problem for me. Inter-troop capture the flag in the dark got to be kinda scary at times too. Running into another boy was no big deal, but there wasn't any give in a tree. Of course lying in wait in the dark to scare the kajeebies out of some other troop's newbie scouts always played an important past-time for some. (It was called "Looking for Girl Scouts", hide in the bushes and when they walk by, you grab their ankles and they sound just like Girl Scouts) Today, left-handed axes, and two-way smoke shifters are the best we can do. The really sad part of all that shenanigans going away is today, one no longer sees the troop interaction that used to be a large part of scouting. Unless it's a competition, one doesn't see it much. Each competition is designed to keep the troops separate too. The only hanger on seems to be the all-out klondike sled race still hanging in there. Even tug-of-war is gone.... As far as I know, none of us ever ended up with any permanent damage, but a ton of great memories. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)