Stosh

Don't cha just love it when in cold weather the batteries go out on the GPS? Kinda like the usefulness of liquid filled compasses in cold weather. Sure they're great toys to play with, but if one needs a reliable tool, the map and regular compass can't be beat. In an emergency, a dead cell phone just fills up pocket space that would be better filled with something like a survival blanket or first aid kit. I guess when it comes to safety, reliable tools have proven themselves more often than electronic gadgets. Yes, in cold weather I still carry candles rather than a flashlight. They may not be as efficient, but they can still light up the area and start an emergency fire a lot better than a flashlight and extra batteries. However, if all one does is car camping, then the discussion is rather moot. Your mileage may vary. Stosh

If your plates are plastic, I can understand why one would want to have hot water to clean them up. With the cuts on them, food borne cross contamination is a concern. No problem with metal mess kits. They cook well and can be cleaned just as easily as plastic plates with no contamination problems. Remember that food handling is throughout the meal cycle not just for food prep. With utensiless cooking, the hide bag and rocks might be something fun to consider. Hot water and oatmeal makes a fine Sunday AM breakfast for those troops that are just knocking out nights of camping. Unless one is getting up at 4:00 am to make 10:00 am church, it's pretty much a shot morning. Why not hang out, take your time, do a nice job instead of the Retreat from Moscow routine adopted by a lot of troops. Teamwork also implies that half the boys could be doing meal prep while the other half break camp. Or as a worse case scenario, the Grubmaster and his assistant could knock it out for the 6 other boys breaking camp. Lame excuses don't justify questionable nutrition. Lets see here. Start charcoal/fire, hand out two eggs, lay out fix-ins. Break and stir up eggs in mess kit, drop in fix-ins of one's own choosing. Hold over charcoal/fire for about 10 minutes. Grab fork, eat out of the pan. Scrape clean, wash, put away. Should take about as long boiling enough water for the omelets. Start stove and toss on biggest kettle with water. Bring to a boil, toss in plastic eggs, wait to cook. Grab fork, eat out of a bag, Wash fork, put away. I'm not seeing any real time-savings going on here. As a matter of fact I'm thinking mess kit cooking would be done and meal eaten before the wash water comes to a boil. And it would be at that point that baggy omelets would be started. Of course with the mess kit, the boys could fry up some bacon, too but it would add a few minutes while one got their eggs and fix-ins ready. Sorry, I don't see the advantage. Yeah, it might be fun, but one could cook their egg in an orange peel for fun too and then there's no need to even boil the water. Maybe with the troop-method approach where 50 boys are getting fed like a mess hall, it would be okay. But for scout skills, I don't think many of the boys need to know how to cook for more than say 8 boys at a time anyway. Your mileage may vary. Stosh

Camp Freeland Leslie, Oxford WI

In the past 3 years I have lost 4 scouts due to homesickness and thus borrowing someone's cell phone to have the parent come and pick them up, never to return. In the past 3 years I have had one occasion where an entire patrol "disappeared" when one of the boys called his mother and they all left early from a campout without letting anyone know. At least in my case, cell phone usage doesn't bode well for the program of scouting. Kids of the age we are dealing with do not understand the full ramifications of improper cell phone usage. It satisfies the moment, but damages the future. With attention spans of a gnat, that can be quite harmful. Stosh

An atheist can't pray, he's got no one to talk to. Stosh

Why not teach the boys to do real cooking? I don't eat out of a bag whether it comes from scouting or McDonalds. I may eat my sandwich out of a brown paper bag, but I don't cook it either. I would hate to think that my boys starved to death because they didn't have ziplock bags handy. Stosh

My boy wore my Cub Scout necker I had as a kid. Yes, somethings are worth keeping. I still have my Boy Scout necker from when I was a kid and occasionally wear it. I also have a pile of neckers in my drawer that identify my participation in various summer camps (yes, camps used to have their own neckers, not just a patch.) I have my WB student and WB tartan necker, all my youth neckers, a necker from the first National Jamboree, and neckers that I made for specific reasons, etc. With all the changes in the uniforms over the years, the necker is the one item that will go with any of them and be right in style. In my troop the necker is required and expected along with a FULL uniform. I don't always check the socks but the rest is necessary. Do I have boys lose their neckers very often? Nope! It costs them $7 to replace every time they do. It also costs $7 to replace their required staves, too. At that price they don't get lost very often, but I do notice the practice of tying one's necker on their staves a lot. If it's hot out the boys can take their neckers off, but they either stuff them in a pocket or tie to their staff. At summer camp at closing flags on the first day, all the staff was in proper Venturing uniforms. CIT's were wearing full BS uniforms (no neckers). The only troop there that matched them was mine. Quite a few staff members came over and talked with my boys about it afterwards, including the camp director. It is obvious to all when a scout shows pride in the uniform. Any uniform gets dirty at a week-long camp, dress or "activity". And yes, my boys wore the full uniform throughout the week. For those that think it gets too grubby, there's always a 5 gal. pail and plunger to wash them out. It's call being CLEAN, one of the 12 points of the scout law. When I went to Jambo, I had a clean uniform shirt and pants to wear every day! As hot as it was at Jambo, it felt great to have a daily shower and clean clothes on to start each day! A scout may be a scout in America without a necker, but not in the universal scouting community. It's rather myopic to think otherwise. As pointed out in previous posts, the necker is the world-wide symbol of Scouting. Stosh http://www.normanrockwellvt.com/BoyScouts.htm No, these are the pictures that say it all.(This message has been edited by jblake47)

Gee, as a kid I didn't know I was doing patrol outings while I was in Scouts. My buddies and I went camping all the time without adults and it never dawned on us to ask anyone other than our parents. The only hassle we ever got is when my dad wanted to go with us and hang out. Occasionally we let him come along. Stosh

Here's where I differ a bit with the organizational structure taught in most troops of today. The SM delegates to the SPL who in turn delegates to the PL who delegates to the patrol members. I promote in my boys -- the PL is the ultimate authority/responsibility in the troop. The PL's run their mini-troops (patrols) as a SM would a traditional troop. I as SM and my SPL always ask "what can I do to assist you in doing your job". Nowhere do we state we are going to do it for them. The PL goes to the SPL only when he is faced with a problem resolution he may need assistance in, but the SPL is not just another member of his patrol that he delegates to. Once the PL's realize that the sun rises and sets on their abilities to lead (or not lead as may be the case in the beginning), they will need to step up to make things function. Doing one's job means that functionality must be present. Sitting around waiting for the SPL to step in and take over is not on any PL job description I've ever read for a boy-led program. And if one abdicates one's responsibility long enough then the adults will step in and reverse everything the troop has accomplished along the lines of boy-led. I always tell my boys, "I'd be happy to do this or that, but then I get to make up ALL the rules on how this troop is to be run." So far I haven't had anyone agree to this. Stosh

My mother was a master of conflict resolution and often offered sound advice when dealing with problem situations I faced. Her #1 rule was instead of tit-for-tat yelling, simply state what your position is, i.e. the problem you are facing, and then outline what the other person needs to do to correct the problem. Too often blaming and arguing rule the discussion and is definitely counterproductive and doesn't resolve much if anything. Do your research on boy-led, patrol-method approaches to the scouting program, there are plenty of resources in BSA literature to support this. Outline it as to how it pertains to your troop and draw conclusions as to where deficiencies are obvious. THEN offer up sound suggestions as to how to resolve the problem, what you would like to try out to see if it works for the troop, etc. If the SM refuses to even listen to such suggestions, take it to the CC and make the same presentation and let them know you as scouts would like to have some help implementing it and support in helping the SM with the process. Yes, you can "take candy from a baby"! Just give it a toy when you do and 99% of your problems will not have a chance to happen. My mom's words still echo in my ears: "Here's the problem, ... and this is what you're going to do to resolve it... " Nothing vague, no blaming, no games, just spell it out and see where it goes. Stosh

And then people wonder why these forums get lively because of misunderstandings? Stosh

I hope my boys find the time to come to my gravesite and build a campfire and roast marshmallows and play games. I'm sure my neighbors won't mind either. I hope that the person whose letter started this thread realizes that some of those boys will be the same ones that will someday don a non-BSA uniform and serve and protect our country so that future generations of young men will have an opportunity to run around and throw juniper berries in the cemetery, too. Stosh

acco40, I was going to leave that one alone. As far as "strong" swimming. I'm 60 years old and can't do "strong" like I used to in my youth. Now I pass the swim test every year with a combination of life-saver's breast stroke and side-stroke (I too hate getting water in my ears) . Both easy, resting strokes that if done correctly can be accomplished faster than some of the younger boy's crawl strokes. This is a classic example of the turtle and the hare. Most of the boys take off like it's a race and burn themselves out about half way through. I keep a steady pace and finish quickly with very little effort. Age and treachery will win out over youth and exuberance any day! I've never failed a swim test, and have been tested by numerous different water-front personnel in at least a dozen different venues. "Strong" was never an issue and I don't really do "strong" anyway. Stosh

Hmmm... I have never found it necessary to family camp at BSA facilities. I always have taken my kids on various high adventure trips and reserved the family camping for more exotic locales. I camp twice as often as my scouts. They go to camp, to camporees, maybe a white-water canoe outing now and then, cabin camp in the winter, occasionally a special trip somewhere, etc. but I generally go where no one else goes and I take my family and friends. Camping on a river sandbar 5 miles from the closest building is far more exciting than some camp's "program" for kids in an open field just off of the summer camp site facility. Eating institutional food from a mess hall or sleeping in a wall tent with cot. Nope not for me. And before anyone starts in with the Tigers having to start some place, well, I did a lot of what today's BSA calls high adventure BEFORE I started Cub Scouts! I had a family that camped! I could get 20 days of camping in before the summer was half over. If I couldn't get 40-50 days of camping in per summer it just wasn't summer! I owned my own pup-tent and sleeping bag BEFORE I started Cub Scouts. No, it wasn't something my parents bought, I bought them with my allowance money. Whereas most boys think shooting .22's at camp is exciting. I received my first .22 for my 12th birthday. I had already been actively hunting squirrel, rabbit and pheasant long before BSA said I could even touch a .22. One would have thought that BSA would have been a natural fit for me. It wasn't. After 4 years I made 2nd class and finally quit. In the BSA program for most people "family camp" is an add-on extra. For me BSA camping even with it's high adventures is the add-on extra. Pulling into an RV site, or renting a cabin and eating at a mess hall just so I could sit around a fire and sing songs with my family? Nope, never happened. Does my family still camp? Mom's passed, Dad's in assisted living, and yet my daughter and I just got back from a nice camping weekend last month. My fiancee and I did a great kayak weekend outing in early November, too. Nothing is greater than quietly drifting into a flock of Tundra Swans as they rest for the night on their migration south. Instead of wanting to share my scout camping with my family, I'm always wanting to share my family camping with my boys. Super-8 is not a patrol franchise... Stosh

My boys have been goofing off for a couple of months now and so I as SM am now the PL. Any time a boy wishes to challenge that, he may do so. Last night they were planning on updating the calendar and I said nope, not going to happen. Because they didn't do what they said they were going to do, they were now going to do what I wanted to do instead. They have had 3 months to get the calendar updated, so another week or so was no big deal. I had the boys cut 4 - 48' pieces of twine. They had their 6' walking sticks and figured that out on their own. Then the 8 boys were given a stick in which they were to find one of the 8 ends of rope and tie a double half-hitch on it. 6 of the FC and the TF scout could not tie the knot. The Star rank boy was able to do it, sat down and then waited for the others. The 7 were "yelled" at for not knowing a 2C knot. The Star scout was "yelled" at for not helping his buddies. He favors himself as PL material. I don't think so as of yet. I helped them string the ropes, of which they couldn't follow simple directions and got it messed up. Finally they were all ready to start twisting. They dropped their sticks, the ropes fell off and it was basically a comedy of errors. Once they got the twists in I helped them triple the rope to start twisting the opposite directions, they again couldn't/wouldn't follow directions. Once they got the rope made I had them gently pull to set the rope but not break the sticks. 3 of the 8 broke their sticks. I then handed each of the 8 a piece of twine to whip the ends. 2 of them preferred to fuse them because they didn't know how to whip, but did know how to fuse. With 10 minutes to go I called "First Call" so they could quickly clean up the mess and get ready for closing flags. They all walked over and left the mess. That process was quickly remedied. Needless to say my expedition into the world of Cub Scouts with my FC scouts was rather interesting. Last week's detailed instruction in how to do a flag ceremony produced a very nice one this week in spite of the closing fiasco. Next week they will all get a piece of paper and have to produce a menu/shopping list of a supper meal that I would want to eat, not them, but ME! The grand experiment of having the boy lead themselves has taken a back seat. They have had all the JLT, NLT, NYLT, Green Bar Bill Training and still they haven't figured out leadership. They have reached FC (3 have had SMC's for Star in the past 3 weeks) and still they can't tie simple knots, do a respectful flag ceremony, or cook a meal for themselves. Are these boys ready to go out on a patrol outing by themselves? Nope. Will they get there eventually? Yep. Not today, but eventually. Doing some task to get credit for a requirement and actually learning the task seem to be two entirely different issues in today's world. Kinda makes one wonder how many Eagle Scouts out there can really perform FC tasks and function as a leader of a group in the wilderness. Kudu's 300' is a good test of this process. I wonder where he got the idea from? Stosh

My son is not a scout. Was a Cub, got AOL, stayed in scouts until he reached Star and then quit. I didn't. Stosh

I would love to see a picture of the US flag with the wind blowing from right to left, thus leaving the flag reversed on the staff. The only time I see it displayed this way, and forgive me if my physics test is confusing, but if a ship with sails is depicted moving from left to right, it means the wind is blowing in that direction, why then does the flag stream towards the back of the ship? Artistic liberty? Also, in terms of US flag code, the military has adopted the policy of the flag "streaming" to the back. It's a non-traditional depiction of a free-flying flag sewn to a non-free-flying background. And since when has anything the government decided have to make sense? Stosh

Or to make things easier, just have the troop policy that at summer camp all boys, regardless of age have to retake the swimmers' test. That way no one gets left out and if someone hedged on the test earlier, they will need to step up to the plate. The swimmer's test is not a one time deal, like Whitlin' Chip, it's an annual re-certification in our troop. I had one boy, big, played football, etc. very athletic. He could pass the test as a first year scout, no problem but as he toned up his muscles and trimmed down, his body became less buoyant and by the time he Eagled, he could no longer pass the basic swim test. Retest every year, better safe than sorry. Stosh

"Although 300' is a long ways away. Can boys even shout that far if something went stupidly wrong? We live in a pretty wooded environment and we might have trouble even seeing the boys from that distance. Perhaps we'll try 100'." Whistle is for emergencies, bugle is for communication. It might not be such a bad idea to have functional buglers. Maybe with everyone camping on top of each other, this is why buglers are becoming obsolete. I'm thinking that if one had good buglers, one could actually camp 1/4 mile apart and still be in contact with each other. For those who's mind went immediately to why not just use cell phones, one must always rely on the availability of service. A bugle doesn't rely on microwave towers to work, and you don't need a solar recharger either. So, let me get this straight. A bugler calls attention and everyone looks to the camp where the bugle played. Hmmm... There's someone there with a necker on a walking stick using Meyer's or Morse code.... Ever wonder why all FC scouts of the past knew how this stuff all worked? I don't. Stosh

Two weeks ago, the troop went through the 1960's Handbook and discussed the requirements for T->FC. By the time the meeting had ended we had dragged out old maps, worked on them and did some things that the new book didn't cover. One of my boys even knew Morse Code, which came as a surprise to me. It was neat. Last week we did the same thing with the 1911 Handbook. The boys were surprised to find that Star->Eagle weren't even in the book, and that FC was the "goal" of scouting. Again it led to some interesting discussions from the boys. We use the old Green Bar Bill training in our troop because the boys prefer it over the JLT and NLT programs. As long as my boys show an interest in the historical material, including the historical MB's offered this year, I'm pleased as punch. They also selected a summer camp a couple of years back that emphasized the boy-led, patrol-method approach to activities and have gone back every year. They enjoy the patrol cooking and still get in all the camp activities offered. Stosh

When I took over my present position as SM, I had a "deal" with the former SM. It was expected between the two of us that he would take on CC for a couple of years while the troop transitioned. He is fully trained WB and can handle the CC just as well as SM. Knowing what I was facing. We were taking the troop from adult led to boy led. He had basically burned out trying to do adult led and it wasn't working, thus my entrance. Our "deal" was I would focus 100% of my time with the boys and he would focus 100% of his time with the adults. A divide and conquer type of approach. If an adult got in the way, they were directed to the committee and this allowed the SM to work with the boys and not worry about the parents. For us this has worked out great. Parent issues just don't interfere with the boys at any level. If some parent is concerned that their boy isn't progressing quick enough, it goes to the committee, not the SM. If the committee feels the beef has validity, the CC contacts the SM and we work it out. There is no issue that comes from the parents that isn't first filtered out by the committee. The SM is thus free to run the program with the boys without interference. When I needed new ASM's I talk to the CC. It's his job to provide them, train them, and get them up to speed with the troop. Thus far they have done an excellent job providing adult talent that fits nicely with the boy led program. As SM, my #1 supporter in running the troop is my CC and his, now her, committee. When it came time to change CC's, the CC and committee vetted a number of individuals before asking the current CC who has come on board, with very little disruption, and the transition was virtually unnoticeable. My new CC is great and her committee has always been there to make sure the troop is running smoothly. Unless they are chaperoning an activity or driving the boys somewhere, the committee has made sure the hands-on leadership of the boys has been fully trained and expectations laid out clearly. Even the chaperoning drivers have had YPT and or signed up as MB counselors that have been vetted and trained. To date, there has been no political hassles in the troop and if they do arise, the committee is fully trained and focused to deal with it. Just some things to think about as you take on the challenges of the CC position. Remember, it's ALL for the boys! Stosh

There should be a MB for kayaking by itself. One can always load up a canoe and hit the BWCA without much problem, but with the very limited space, trying a long term kayak trip! It's like backpacking and canoeing all mixed together but with extreme restrictions on both. If I had to come up with an impossible MB, this would rank right up there. Stosh

Some of those MB's could be done fairly easily by "city" boys. Pigeon would be fairly easy to do in town, as would Poultry. Not all towns/cities had ordinances against them. Rabbit is also adaptable to city dynamics in that I know of a friend of mine who worked his way through college and graduate school raising rabbits in his 2 car garage. With the best food to meat ratio of any animal and the market back then was at $7-$8.00/lb. butchered, it was a virtual gold mine. Stosh

Most the boys that can't make the week of summer camp make arrangements to attend with a nearby troop. Our council camp has a provisional troop only the last week of the schedule. If they can't make it during either of those two weeks (1 with own troop, 1 with provo troop), then they need to dove-tail into another troop's program or miss out on summer camp. The last time I had a boy that couldn't attend summer camp with the troop, he called up the Scout Office, found out what troops would be attending the week he could attend, called up a SM and went with that troop. Had a good time and made a lot of friends in the other troop. Stosh

Annually our troop hosts a DARE officer, police officer, drug counselor, deputy sheriff, or health teacher to come in and fulfill the requirement for us. Some are good, some are not. The best was when the State Highway Patrol's drug sniffing K-9 unit came in and put on a program. The dog was the highlight of the evening. We follow an annual process similar to this with the citizenship requirement and have a town council president/member, school principal, mayor, etc. come in and visit with the boys. Stosh