Stosh

I work in an international company that deals with people from all over the world. My fellow employees come from all over the world as well. I struggle with strange accents over the phone, I try and cipher what it is someone is trying to say to me in emails that don't make sense, and I enjoy every minute of it. I chat with people from all parts of the globe, not just the mix and match of America. What I have noticed is the wider the scope of territory, the less of an issue it is. There seems to be more press coverage of the black/white neighborhoods in one little city than all total lack of concern when actually meeting someone from a foreign country and differing race. And the closer the connection seems to produce the shortest fuses. Case in point. NAACP is a black racially oriented group designed to promote only one race. They are not considered a "hate" group, but in fact any white racially oriented group designed to promote one race is. I'm thinking this kind of one-way bigotry is the hypocrisy that Beavah might be referring to. If a Scout is to be friends to all, why would any of them wish to participate in any of these kinds of groups? I haven't the time of day for either the KKK or the NAACP. I happen to be white, so even though I don't have any liking for the KKK, because I don't have any particular liking for the NAACP, I must therefore be a racist bigot. Guilt by association, i.e. I happen to be white, is the root of all racism. I can't help it if I'm a WASP any more than another happens to be black or Muslim. If I judged people in this manner then yes I would be a bigot, and rightly so. I don't, but I can't stop the other person from choosing to believe in the ways they do. My only responsibility is to how I conduct myself. Heaven knows, I have enough to worry about my own responsibilities than worry about someone else's. My troop consists of whites, blacks, Hispanics, male and female leaders, but they are all Scouts. That always comes first. It is from the common ground that we work, and it is to this goal we strive. I have found that through the years it is a lot easier to get things done from forming common connections, than sitting around picking about our differences. That in fact hasn't produced any effectiveness at all. So, although I don't agree with troops that are half-uniformed by their traditions, I at least can agree that wearing at least a uniform shirt is better than a BSA t-shirt, which is better than nothing. Am I a Uniform NAZI? To some I may be, to others maybe not. I wear the full-uniform, not because I am better than all the rest, but because I believe in the principle of leading by example. I reward scouts who wear the full-uniform correctly, but because I do, I am called out and chastised by others who think that by doing so, somehow I am punishing those that don't. Someone's always going to notice the difference and in their hypocrisy, will make a scene about it. Back in the 60's and 70's there was a big push to raise everyone's awareness about social causes, and I often wondered whether or not this effort to raise awareness may have in fact been more destructive in the long run. The emphasis on pointing out differences only created more problems than they solved. Like I said in an earlier post, when the little black kids came to visit our Podunk town back in the early 60's and all the whites refused to go into the municipal pool because the kids wanted to go swimming, my buddies and I basically had the whole pool to ourselves for the afternoon. The funniest part of the whole process was that someone in town figured out how long it would take for the pool filters to cycle through all the water in the pool and the whites would know when it was safe to go back into the pool. Some even called our parents to complain about my buddies and I. I know for a fact that my Mom just hung up on them. It always amazed me how adults could be so stupid, even while I was a kid myself. As I grew up, I retained my opinion that hypocrisy was stupid, but others didn't. So, am I a bigot? Probably, because I really have a low tolerance level for hypocrites. I'm thinking that this is why.... Your mileage may vary, Stosh

If a scout doesn't know it well enough to teach it to another scout, he probably doesn't know it well enough to pass the requirement. Thus I stick to my original premise, the boy should know the requirement well enough to teach it. It doesn't mean he has to actually teach it, but should know it well enough if the case should ever arise. Too often we have FC scouts running around not teaching the younger boys, not because they don't know how to teach, but because they got a check mark in their handbook and still can't do the skill. As far as teaching goes, my boys have all been taught a simple formula for teaching that I use every time I wish to teach the boys something. Go up in front, face the group. Introduce yourself. Tell the group what you're going to be teaching and why it's important to know. Demonstrate it. Have them practice and demonstrate it. Retell them what you taught them. Question and answer opportunity. Thank them for their attentiveness. Sit down. After 3 years with the boys, I still introduce myself at the beginning of every presentation and go through the steps. The only time a boy gets embarrassed with this process is when he's supposed to know the material and doesn't. Boy Scouts who take the Motto to heart don't have that problem. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

Cheesehead? Heck, I've heard worse. One must always be on guard as to how one would wish to decide how to feel about any issue being addressed. No matter how innocent a comment may be there will always be some out there who choose to react in a negative manner. Often we believe that our feelings are not controllable, but in fact they are. Case in point... One is out shopping at the mall and minding their own business looking in all the shop windows. Then all of a sudden someone rams them from behind pushing them up against the window. Like most people I too would react in such a way as to think this inconsiderate person should be hung from a yardarm! Can't they watch were they're going. There's plenty of room, why can't I have a wee bit of the space? I would be mad, very mad at such a situation, however, when they turn around they see a person standing there with a white cane with a red tip on it, now what?. How does one react? Every negative thought dissipates and the offended person does a mental 180 and cuts the person some slack. They choose to take into consideration a multitude of different criteria in which to formulate a decision on the situation contrary to their initial reaction. Sure, there are things on the forums that irk me, (being called a Cheesehead isn't one of them!) I acco40 really covering up hostile feelings with the ? I'm choosing NO. He likes to interject a bit of humor to lighten up the topics so I find no reason to retaliate, after all he isn't a Yupper. But as NYCubScouter points out there are those who's fuses run short when it comes to certain verbiage and I certainly can understand why. While the National Socialist Workers' Party may have inflamed a ton of people after the war, it wasn't all that long ago that: The Only Good Indian was a Dead Indian, rang throughout our own country. While we felt it okay to put all those of Japanese descent into our own concentration camps in a similar manner, no one was separating the Germans out. For those of you who like history, do a little research on the Bund in America during the war. Maybe they should have. I grew up in the 60's so I know how much the struggle for equal rights took it's toll on everyone. NO ONE is exempt from such choices and there are still those who fan the flames of such ignorance, but that's the society in which we live. One doesn't have to participate in it, however. The hypocrisy that Beavah addresses in his original post simply screams itself over and over again until one becomes deaf! Sometimes selective hearing isn't such a bad way to react to people. Yes, I may get a bit annoyed by being the butt of all the Sven and Ole jokes floating around, but I don't have to let on that it's such a big deal it needs the light of day. Cheesehead? Yeah, but it's true. As far as my salutation, "Your mileage may vary?" It's my way of saying that my opinion isn't the be-all, end-all to the conversation and I'm hoping that others will add to, disprove, or whatever they wish to do with it, is fine with me. As a matter of fact, "getting in the last word", is often times not very helpful. Like an old Scouter friend of mine used to say, when you point your finger at someone else, there's four more in that hand pointing back at you. He's right, you know. Your mileage may vary, (and I hope it does or this forum would cease to exist! ) Stosh

One must also remember that words have a way of changing in meaning over the years. Obviously the word gay no longer means what it used to as an example. In any argument one must remember that the use of words have a tendency to push buttons on certain people and thus the intent of using the words come into play. If one were to use the historic meaning it may mean one thing to them and something entirely different to someone else. Word preference is always suspect and leads to inflamed discussions on most forums. As a moderator, they must always be vigilant in trying to decipher the intent of the words. It's not an easy task I can assure you. Personally I don't object to the term NAZI to describe ideals that are taken way over the top. We use it with such references as uniform NAZI's etc. and I can understand what the person is trying to convey without getting overly concerned. Of course there are plenty of examples where certain terms going one way are not acceptable going the other. It usually means one group is more sensitive than the other. The term Red man or Black man are not acceptable as White man. Go figure. To think that someone got gypped in a financial transaction or Jewed, might draw some ire, but dealing with a Scotsman isn't. Here in Wisconsin, all the Indian logos have to be removed from the schools, but the Vikings go on without batting an eye. Even if us Norske's were to complain, they'd laugh us off as over-sensitive and not covered by the law. So what it all boils down to is who's ox is getting gored. All this playground antics on the forum makes for great inflamed threads, but usually don't really accomplish much in the long run. Sure there are those that feel it necessary to attack the person, but it usually means they are on the short end of the discussion and have run out of resources to continue the discussion on a civil level. Once that happens one might wish to close the thread because it isn't going anywhere anyway. All the points on the topic have been made and there's nothing left to discuss except the person themselves. As a 4' 11" freshman in high school, I had heard it all and yet the words of my Mother always seem to play themselves in the back of my head saying, "Sticks and stones..." I try to be careful with the words I use. They say something to me as I formulate my posts, but it doesn't always work out the way it was intended when someone reads it. When sending to hundreds of people out there, there are always going to be a few that may take offense. I take offense at some things as well, but I go back and give the benefit of the doubt to the writer and try to decipher what it was they were really trying to say. If I can't, I just move on. If I'm being a bit humorous or sarcastic, I try and put in a few to make sure the reader understands it's a bit of tongue-in-cheek with what I'm saying. After all the more you feel like friends on the forum, the more one feels the urge to banter a bit. It doesn't always work out that way, unfortunately. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

My boys don't always wear the correct patches for their historic uniforms because of the cost. However they are encouraged to wear a full uniform, any uniform, or combination thereof. The inexpensive piped pocket uniforms are about half the troop and E-bay has a lot of them for sale. I even have one boy who wears the campaign hat with his historic uniform and another who always wears the garrison cap. We look a bit like a hodge-podge group, but always get complimented on being in full uniform. When anyone drives by my boys working on an Eagle project on a hot summer day, they always know it's a Boy Scout project because all the scouts are in full uniform with neckers! TV showed up and recorded our last project and at the 6:00 pm and 10:00 pm news, there were scout uniforms all over the place and we got a ton of great press for it. No one ever commented on the uniforms being a mix and match affair. Historic or not, people know what a BSA uniform looks like regardless of it's age! Your mileage may vary, Stosh

I wear the full uniform at any Scout activity. It gets dirty at summer camp, but that's what the bucket and plunger are for. Work projects? Full uniform! The most useless thing I own are old BSA t-shirts. Never wear them. I tried wearing the Jambo t-shirts, but found the uniform better material for the hot days. On really hot days, I keep the necker wet to help cool off. It gets rather grungy by the end of the day, but as I said, that's what the bucket and plunger are for. Your mileage may vary.

LOL! Sorry I brought it up, you can see how fast it goes down hill! The North 1 The South 0 Half-time! Stosh

As one who has a lot of experience moderating forums over the years, I can assure everyone that it's a pretty thankless job. If posters get going in a heated discussion on a topic and the moderator cuts it off, then the anger the two had towards each other is now directed to the moderator. If one doesn't cut off the thread, then everyone else is mad at the moderators. A person just can't win. There will always be certain individuals that find it worth their time to push the buttons of others on a forum. They are easily identifiable and are monitored a bit more than others. It is not an exact science, some people are watched more carefully than others and not everyone gets treated equally. So be it, everyone is human and this is how people act. Adjust. This forum remains one of the more civil ones I have come across. Try moderating an American Civil War forum some time. The War ain't over and there's no fat lady gonna sing any time soon. I have noticed only once or twice where the moderators have even stepped in on any thing so if it wasn't for the little * by their name, most people wouldn't even know. I'm thinking that everyone on this forum needs to count their blessings and be thankful there really hasn't been much need to step in and moderate. Other forums expect the moderators to not be involved in the discussions except to moderate. Being as civil as it has been, it's nice to have the moderators involved with the discussions. I'm thinking the moderators are doing pretty well. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

It's a lot more reassuring to hear that the "days" will be getting longer in December than in June hearing that they will be getting shorter. Solstice blessings to you as well! Stosh

When I was a WDL, I ran the program through all the requirements twice to make sure everyone had two chances to pass all advancement. I didn't get any complaints from the boys and they enjoyed the second time through just as much as the first time. All but one earned the AOL through the first round and the last one picked up the single requirement the second time through. Yeah, right, like the boys didn't enjoy doing it more than once if it's fun. Of course we had the luxury of meeting weekly year-around and that made a big difference in how often we repeated activities. Stosh

Eagle1982 - I guess it all depends on the scoutmaster. In my troop, if the boys went as often as the SM, they would go twice as often than they do. I announce that I am going to be going some place camping, canoeing or kayaking and if the boys want to come along they can make their arrangements. Two-three activities per month seem to be a hard press for a small boy-led program. Unfortunately, 5 seats in my vehicle go unclaimed a lot of times. Stosh

The advancement of the boys is rooted in the concept of developing self-confidence. They only way they can do this is to actually know they did the work. If the advancement of the boys is rooted in the concept of developing self-esteem, all we need to is hang trinkets on their uniforms and they will "feel good about themselves." The two dynamics are not synonymous with each other. Self-esteem is everyone telling you you're great. Self-confidence is knowing yourself that you're great. The development of self-esteem has destroyed more self-confidence than anything else we have snowed our children into understanding. Self-esteem wanes as a person grows up and self-confidence grows. The more we retard that process the longer it is going to take for the boys to develop it. Once the boy earns the badge, he gets it. He has a whole year to do so and if his buddies beat him to it, so be it. Not everyone that sits back and gets freebies deserves the AOL, same with Eagle for the Boy Scouts. He needs to learn this process early in life so when he does get his AOL/Eagle it has some real meaning for him. Stosh

Our troop runs a bit different. We are small now, so there's no PLC. Once we get to 4-5 patrols maybe we'll put one together. Until then there's no need. Robert's Rules are for groups that make decisions so our PLC would not find it necessary to institute those. We should be at 3 patrols by the middle of winter. Our PL's run their own patrols and they are independent of other patrols. All decisions regarding the patrols are decided within the individual patrol. Thus there is no need for an outside group (PLC) to impose decisions on them. Kinda like all the dens in a Pack deciding what another den has to do. Nope. Not going to happen any time soon either. So if there is a PLC it will be a clearing house of patrol decisions, i.e. Patrol 1 lets Patrol 2-4 know what they are up to and if any of them want to join forces, so be it. It does not mean Patrol 2-4 make decisions for Patrol 1, that's a previously done deal. Agenda: Patrol 1 - makes a report of what they are up to. Patrol 2 - same thing Patrol 3 - " " Patrol 4 - " " Discussion: Patrol 1 & 3 happen to have decided on the same activity. So it would be a good idea to pool their resources, rides, etc. to get to the event. It will be then necessary to have involvement with QM who has been sitting in on the meeting, to make sure there's enough equipment for both patrols, etc. Patrol 2 is going somewhere else. If it is at the same time as Patrol 1 & 3's event, QM is involved to make sure the equipment is available. Patrol 4 hasn't any plans, but where Patrol 1 & 3 are going sounds like fun so he'll make a presentation to his patrol to see if they wish to join in. If they decide to, then PL #4 will present at the next PLC and enter into the discussion with PL's from 1 & 3. SPL coordinates all of this. Collects up the reports and facilitates the discussions amongst the PL's. Once everything is hashed out amongst the PL's, the SPL adjourns the meeting. Ownership and interest is maintained within the patrols. There is nothing worse than having Patrols 1-3 voting on an activity and Patrol 4 now has to go along with them whether they want to or not. More often than not, they'll just stay home or find some other activity to participate in instead. I can't envision all the boys deciding together on a single activity very often. With an age span of 11-18 I'm sure unanimous votes in the PLC would tend to be rather scarce. With mixed patrols, only parts of patrols will opt out of an agreed upon activity and so attendance in all patrols will suffer on an uninteresting activity. Thus the temptation for ad hoc patrols becomes evident. There's a natural tendency in troops to have a larger number of younger boys than older boys and if PLC's become voting/deciding bodies, then the interest of activities will be focused more on activities for the younger boys and the older boys will either tolerate it or drop out. Imagine if you will, five groups deciding on an joint activity. 4 of them are female one is male. The group consensus is learning how to scrapbook. Yeah, right! Poker Night got a whole lot more interesting all of a sudden and I don't play Poker. Or if the 5 groups were all mixed, the Poker Night still looks pretty good. This way all the groups get fractured. But what if each group was able to decide for themselves. At least everyone stays in the game. Works kinda like an independent VP if given autonomy to run it's own program. If not, it's gonna be history, too. Your mileage may vary. Stosh

What I like about the knot is the device that Jambo participants can get to go with it. Kinda rounds out the whole package. Stosh

The staff time, energy, storage arguments don't really carry any weight. When my boys show up for camp they get a long ridge pole with holes, two poles with spikes, a tent, 2 floors and a 30 gal bucket of wooden stakes. The boys unroll the tents, check them over for holes, tears, etc. and then put up. Toss in the floors, and reverse the process on Friday. The staff only delivered and picked up the tents at the beginning and end of the week. I can't see how this is such a drain on staff time and energy because they have to do check in/check out inspections anyway. If the canvas was wet at the end of the week, we left them up for either the next troop the following week, or staff to take them down once they dried if no one was going to be staying in that site. Camps with a ton of specially built platforms in neatly arranged layouts and tents that stay up all summer long, then at the beginning and end of the season it's going to be a big job setting them up and taking it down. But if the campers put up and take down tents, then staff may in fact have to take down maybe a dozen tents all summer long. Like I said I don't see how this constitutes a major drain on the time and energy of camp staff if done right. I have attended camps where the troops had to provide their own tents, even with 4-man tents, they were cramped and crowded for the week. I would hate to think of what that site would have looked like with 2-man tents. I brought an A-Frame tent that held a cot, bin/table and recliner lawn chair. I wasn't hurting for space, but I had less space than the standard BSA wall tent of the camp we attend now. In the long run, I think there are minimum tent size requirements for boys camping long-term and most troop tents may not fulfill that requirement. I know when we went, our 4-man tents did not. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

The original Boy Scouts played a game called Gauntlet which could be adapted to this process especially in area of keeping score. Put a cup of flour in each sock. Those dark blue socks would make the job of counting hits a lot easier. No guarantee that you will get the boys to end the game until all the flour is gone. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

When I was a WDL I did this all the time to prepare the boys for a boy-led troop experience. Not only does it allow the boys to take ownership of the program, it teaches responsibility and leadership at the same time. Why run a program of what YOU think would be fun when it's a lot easier to have them plan out a good program of what THEY think would be fun. Too often we make things a lot harder than they have to be. If you think that a game of kick-ball would be great for the boys to play and all they want to do is play tag, why fight it? Dump the ball, tag, you're it! Your mileage may vary, Stosh

Eagle92, I'm sure they decided to use red because it's connected to the centennial and red has been around for Boy Scouts for 100 years... Now that they've changed all that all bets are off. And if they switched to green maybe someone would get the wrong idea and think it's a GSUSA color. And they left orange off and all the Tigers are now disenfranchised too. And then there's the purple for all the Barney Scouts out there, and the Black which has to be included in everything, and, and, and, Hey! How about a rainbow instead of a knot?!!! Naw, that's been taken too. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

campingchair: First of all: Welcome to the forums! I can understand your concerns because as a SM we deal with the same group dynamics with patrols. If you would review the Den Chief training (it's on-line) you will notice that the program draws a natural line between the Den Chief expectations for Wolf/Bear and that for Webelos. The Wolf/Bear guys might get a kick out of caroling, etc. and that's exactly what they want. However, maybe the Webelos might want to do something more "grown up" like helping collect food for the local food pantry, decorating at a nursing home or something with a bit more challenge to it. I'm thinking you may be a bit over concerned as well. As a matter of fact, you could be expressing your concerns that the Pack always does activities oriented for the Wolf/Bear guys and the Webelos want to be doing something else and can't! I think it's great that the Wolf/Bear DL's are digging in and getting some nice stuff organized for their boys, but the WDL needs to be doing things for his boys as well. And of course there is nothing wrong with the Webelos boys hosting an activity and inviting the Wolf/Bear guys even though the invitation is not reciprocated. As CC for the Pack, I would suggest sitting down with the CM and WDL to work out a plan of suggestions for the WDL's to consider that sound more like suggestions than demands. This way you can expand on what you have going and offer even more opportunities for the boys rather than begrudging someone being left out. I'm thinking that if the WDL keeps inviting the W/B dens to nice activities and they never reciprocate, it kinda looks bad, but so be it. However, in the mean time, the WDL's step up their game plan and the Webelos boys end up having so much fun they don't sit around worrying about getting left out of a Wolf/Bear den activity. It's kinda like what do you do with a troop where all the young Tenderfoot/Second/First Class guys want to go to summer camp and the Star/Life/Eagle guys want to go to Philmont. In my book, it's not an all or nothing proposition, it's a "do-it-all" challenge. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

Gee, BadenP, don't be such a sore head, you're ruining it for me. I want to be the first guy on the block to wear a knot that no one has ever heard of before. Then all those guys with 15 rows of knots will be jealous. Stosh

We are developing a generation of young people that will eventually be phobic of going outdoors for fear of something terrible going to happen to them. This should make our jobs as SM a lot easier. All we are going to have to do is get the kid out the front door and sit him on the stairs and he's going to think it's a fantastic adventure. Make sure he has his sun block on and bug spray. Make sure he has a coat on if it's cold, and be sure to check the yard for any stray dogs, also check both sides of the house in the yard to make sure there aren't any child predators there too. And make sure you get permission in writing, with notarized signature, and of course the Tour Permit, too.... OMG!! Maybe a wee bit of advice my mother once gave me might help here: "GET OUT OF THE HOUSE AND BLOW THE STINK OFF, I'M SICK AND TIRED OF YOU JUST SITTING AROUND WATCHING TV!" (The caps were added to give the proper intensity she would have placed on the words.) Stosh

Kudu's 300' has been a blessing for my boys because unless they go to sleep before I do, my snoring keeps them awake all night long. Stosh

LOL! Reminds me of my upbringing. I have a sister that is a year older than me. She did all the laundry, cooking, cleaning, etc. around the house. Well, one day she went off to college. Mom looked at me and simply said, "It's your turn!" Dang! I learned to cook, clean, do laundry, sew, and just about everything that Home Ec. didn't teach. When Mom and Dad broke up housekeeping, I got the sewing machine!!!! Last time I used it, I made patrol flags, the time before that I was making neckerchiefs. To this day, I still say prayers of thanksgiving to my Mom! It was great. I know from anecdotal stories that this same process was repeated on my two younger brothers, both which complained like mad, but learned nonetheless. Parents are doing their children a great disservice by not helping them grow up! Stosh

I'm with John-in-KC on this one. Any SM that designs a program to insure failure on the part of the boys needs to be replaced. Sure, I'll let the boys fall on their noses based on their poor choices, but I surely would never set them up to fail. Boys in the process of learning make plenty of dumb mistakes, without me adding to them. Yes, it's time to talk with the CC, Committee and COR. Be polite, be professional, but lay the situation out on the table and give it some air. Sounds like an excellent opportunity for some real boy-led leadership here, obviously, the adult-led isn't working. Stosh

Better yet, forward your phone to the Camp Office. They'll straighten her out in no time at all. In 15 years of camping at summer camp I have never had a parent call to check up on their child. I let them know the Camp Office phone is for emergencies only and then I leave the cell phone at home. Works great. Stosh