Stosh

Unless one is preparing a survival kit for Alaska, your items might be a bit of an overkill. I would have each boy use a day/book pack with the following items in it: 2-3 extra pairs of mittens 2-3 extra pairs of wool socks extra stocking cap indoor shoes when they get in out of the weather and don't want to walk around inside with wet boots and socks. plastic bags to keep pack dry and put wet things into once they get wet. standard personal first aid kit high energy snacks with sugars and carbohydrates sun screen chap stick/lip balm sun glasses water bottle Your mileage may vary, Stosh

If the meal does not need to be prepped on-site which is usually the case with CSA events, you can always do french toast in the dutch oven the night before, bring in a cooler so it won't freeze, heat up and eat on-site. Everyone gets hot french toast at the same time instead of everyone standing around waiting for a slice here and there and it gets cold before you can get the syrup on it. DO French Toast The night before... 12 eggs, Milk, vanilla or almond extract, cinnamon, sugar to taste, Loaf of bread. Mix up eggs, milk, vanilla or almond extract, cinnamon and sugar Shread bread into the DO. Pour mixture over it, stir it up, set overnight for everything to soak into the bread. Cook in the morning with center mass at 165 degrees. Variations include, doing up #1 bacon, breaking it up and mixing in with bread and mixture. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

Like any program, it is always less expensive to do your own thing than pay someone to do it for you. This is why my family was a camping family. It was and still is, cheaper to camp than get a hotel room. It's cheaper to eat out of a Coleman cooler than an restaurant. The money we saved meant we could go that much further afield. If one's first experience in camping consists of a high priced fancy program of all bells and whistles, one might as well "camp" at the nearest waterpark/amusement park because the kids are going to enjoy that a lot more. And if parents haven't camped before, what makes anyone think it's going to inspire them to all of a sudden become outdoors people that camp a dozen times a year just because they showed up at Boy Scout camp for the weekend and put up with the bugs and left over programming, i.e. Dad's doing the SM thingy and Mom's got the kids and trying to find something for them to stay out of trouble for awhile? I think the gesture is honorable, but not very feasible for cost or effective for inspiration. I'm thinking the BSA program would be better served finding the nearest hotel to the camp, getting a discount and having mom and the rest of the family hang out at the pool. Just my opinion.... Stosh

Imagine if you will a mountain valley with three distinct eco-systems. 1) the valley floor with it's fauna and flora. Then there are 2) those species that thrive at a bit cooler temperature on the side of the mountain and finally 3) those that thrive at the coolest temperature at the mountain tops. Okay, a natural climate change occurs and the average temperature rises 2 degrees. Now the floor of the valley is too hot for the native species and they "migrate" up the side of the mountain to cooler temperatures where they can comfortably survive. They are the invasive species to that former eco-system. The valley floor turns to a desert where it will attract species that can survive in the warmer clime. Those species on the side of the mountain "migrate" up further seeking cooler climates. They too are now invasive. Those formerly on the top die out because they have no place to go and cannot survive the warmer climate anyway, thus becoming extinct. While this example may be an over simplification, it does demonstrate the problem with defining what is invasive and what is native. How long does it take for an invasive plant to become native? etc. A lot of the comments made seem to indicate the impact on the $$'s connected to an eco-system. The financial consideration seem to impel the efforts to save the planet, not allow it to evolve into a more natural state. Duckweed is native, but with the cleaner waters, there's more of it and what the zebra mussels don't clog up, the duckweed does. Kinda like the invasive species allows the native species to once again thrive. Kinda hard to get one's mind wrapped around that one. At one time we didn't think we'd be able to survive as a species if we lost the American Chestnut trees. Then the apocalypse was just around the corner when we lost the Elm, now that we're getting close to the end of the Mayan calendar, the loss of the Ash tree is the third strike and all is doomed. My ASM is a university professor (biology) that does extensive research on many of these dynamics and one can be reasonably assured that all Ash trees are doomed because by the time we find evidence of the Borer, the damage has already been done. Add to that the oaks in our area are being devastated by a blight as well. While everyone is wailing and gnashing their teeth at this whole process one seems to have forgotten that at one point in time this whole area was covered by huge forests of pine! So many that for many years hundreds of people made a fortune in the lumber industry. Once humans stripped the land, these other invasive trees were allowed to grow and now Mother Nature is doing it's own clean up processes and setting it back to it's original state, pine trees. It's kinda strange that they seem to be doing quite well. The part that for me is the most difficult is the attempt by so-called environmentalists to define what is native and natural and what Mother Nature defines as what it wants for native and natural. I have noticed at times these two don't always seem to be on the same page. While I'm not advocating open-pit strip mines and extensive land-fills, I do think that proper recreational use of nature should not be criminalized and regulated to the point where it is impossible to access. So, just follow the money.... Land which was once pristine natural eco-environments are now paved over by extensive urban necessities of human nature. So who's the real criminal? The urban developer who digs huge holes to lay foundations for skyscrapers or the nature lover who digs a cat-hole in the woods? The well-meaning SM who takes extra precautions to make sure his boys LNT in the woods where they camp, may not give a second thought to the parking lot, he as a contractor, paved over just days before. It's strange how our minds can accept such a dichotomy when it comes to money. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

It's rather unfortunate that not everyone on this forum is as informed and experienced as I am and maybe it would be a more welcoming place for the newbies if they were. Now, if one cannot see the sarcasm dripping from these comments, then maybe one should not be on the forum. And when all else fails, one can always lurk-and-learn. I have other forums where I keep my finger on the pulse of the conversations but do not participate, yet I feel I have more to contribute on this forum so I do participate. My word of advise to the newbies is to always assume the positive instead of the negative in all comments. If the comment were to be a negatively directed comment, it will play itself out in subsequent posts. Until that happens assume the best in the other person's intentions. Gags: That line has been around a lot longer than South Park. I've used that line for the past 40 years now. The other one I use is: "There is no such thing as a stupid question, but if you think of one, raise your hand and I'll give you a stupid answer." Your mileage may vary Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

It's rather crass, but, anyone who has trained a dog will know that he will not soil his own kennel unless it's an extreme situation. Like someone didn't let him out for 24 hours. Duh. Well, what do dogs know that we don't? Your mileage may vary, Stosh

My boy wore the yellow all the way through until he got his tan shirt for Boy Scouts. He never asked for a new necker even when everyone else changed. Stosh

Okay, if everyone is on the same page that the world seems to gain its strength out of the survival of the fittest, wouldn't it make sense that if an invasive species thrives over native plants, isn't that species tomorrow's native species? A few years back the upper Mississippi River was "infested" with zebra mussels. This was an environmental disaster! The mussels got into everything, they cleaned up the water, drew out the pollutants, and plants that hadn't seen the light of day for decades began to grow and prosper. The Big Muddy isn't the Big Muddy anymore! Instead of silt deposits clogging the water ways, it is now new growth vegetation. A plant called duck weed is clogging up motor boats right and left and the duck population is growing. The point being, no one knows what to do. Is it a good thing or a bad thing these events are happening? Some say good others say bad. Everyone is in a tizzy with the Emerald Ash Bore and not moving wood around. It's killing off all the Ash trees, you know, the ash trees that were planted 30 years ago to replace the elm trees that were killed off by the Dutch Elm Disease. If Elms can't survive, they're gone. If Ash can't survive, they're gone. They will be replaced by a different invasive species that will thrive in the new opened environment. After all, as a person of European decent, I'm an invasive species that has in fact become native to North America. No one seemed to get all hyped up about that, now did they. Of course the new invasive species, i.e. Hispanics, is a whole different story. Well, not really, but a lot of folks don't want to admit it. Your mileage may vary Stosh 99.5% of all the species that have been native to this planet at one time or another have become extinct. Mankind has been able to stay in the .5%, but that too may someday come to pass as well.

A lot of one's character is based on a sense of self-confidence. I may never have a need to do CPR, but knowing how to do it if needed gives confidence. I may never have the need to start a fire in the back country because one of my buddies fell through the ice, but if needed it gives me confidence, etc. Even if I don't know all the steps exactly, at least I have an inner pool of knowledge that I might pull something out of in an emergency and either save my life or the life of someone else. It kinda goes along with the "Be Prepared" idea. Maybe it will keep me from running out onto the ice when my fishing buddy breaks through. Maybe it will keep me from swimming out and trying to save my wife when it may be better to toss her a rope, etc. Knowing what NOT to do is sometimes as important as knowing what to do. My SM harped on safety first all the time and does that override my snap judgment of going to be a hero someday? Maybe there's a lot of skills out there that the Scouts have been taught that hopefully the boy will never have to use, i.e. first aid, but if needed it's nice to know what to do instead of just standing there watching someone bleed out or choke to death. In an emergency, I have often heard people comment that they wished they had known more to be able to help someone. I have never heard anyone say that they regret having learned too much. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

As a Baby Boomer with a strong interest in history, it always amazed me while reading some of the old scout handbooks some of the things boys had to "know" back then. Yeah, right, how many times is someone had to corral a runaway horse! LOL! This is ridiculous. No one today needs to know how to stop a runaway horse! Well, er... but it is useful information that has helped me stop 3 runaway horses in the past 10 years. When I first took CPR training, I had no idea that I would need it 7 times in my life. First aid? Heck, anyone that has kids, knows about first aid! (or should!) Knots? I tie them all the time! I camp at least every other weekend. I'm into boats that need tying up, tents that need knots, dining flies that need knots. There is hardly a day that goes by that I don't use at least one skill I was taught in the Scouting program! Yeah, like I need to know how to stop a runaway horse, but it did come in handy when the situation arose. The last thing I ever thought I'd use was some tidbit of information gleaned from an old historic Boy Scout handbook. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

I do the "just camping" thing all the time. My boys are always planning for Camporee, summer camp, etc. with all the program "stuff" associated with that. However, I camp more often than they do and I always invite them to go along. I do whitewater canoeing/kayaking, I do gentle river floats, I do weekend hikes and bike rides with camping involved. They can, if they wish, "just go along" for the weekend. I always have another adult (buddy system) along so I always have my two deep leadership. Surprisingly, not many boys are all that interested in going. There isn't enough structure for them. Fishing along a slow float isn't their thing. Sitting around the campfire without skits and entertainment isn't their thing. So what do I see as the big difference? For the boys, entertainment and "adventure" are synonymous. There is no adventure in the solitude and wonder of pure nature anymore. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

I have a terrible problem with looking outside the box on a lot of things and without getting too involved in 83Eagle's post, I noticed that every statement started out with "The problem..." I understand that the point being made is to show the dichotomy of our threads and how everyone doesn't think the same way. I happen to think this is a good thing. But there are always "those" people tend to look at the negative side of everything. Instead of seeing all the opportunities to get a deeper understanding in the complexities of Scouting, it is phrased as a "problem". I know that wasn't 83Eagle's intent, but at first glance that's what I saw. Why is it that human nature always gravitates to the negative! It reminds me of the hold adage: "I've learned that pleasing everyone is impossible, but pi$$ing everyone off is a piece of cake." There's way too much truth to that statement! And when all the dust settles, it's always nice to know that however tough my problems in scouting are, there's always someone else in a deeper hole than me. So, for me things really aren't all that bad. I still look forward to each week's scouting activity and I'm trying to figure out how to get the boys out for some winter stuff now! Your mileage may vary, Stosh

It might be sad to leave one's troop behind and all the long-term friends, etc. but if we are building leaders with strong moral characters that think for themselves and don't compromise their beliefs, it may be the price this boy has to pay. I've been in this position in the past. Not a comfortable place to be.... And where's all the adults of strong leadership that have risen above the fray and personal hurt feelings to work with this boy? Everyone seems to think the victim are a hand full of adults who haven't earned the respect they need to work with this boy. Or -- ???? maybe the boy is right..... Naw, 14 year old boys are always wrong. A child must always respect an adult!!! This is the mantra I grew up with and this is what every child abuser and/or pedophile relies on.... I've worked with kids for 40+ years and 90% of the time they are full of crap with their stories, but I always have my ear to the ground listening very carefully for those other 10% out there. Where there's smoke, there's fire. ALWAYS check out the whole story!!! Before everyone jumped down this boy's throat and told him to apologize, did any of the adults ever ask him why he held the opinion that this adult hadn't earned his respect? Your mileage may vary, Stosh

A lot of "examples" floating around here. Okay, smelly kid didn't deserve to get beat up because he didn't do anything wrong. An apology is called for in this situation. If the instigator doesn't apologize because they didn't see anything wrong with what they did, an apology is worthless because the boy has no moral character in which to base an apology. However, if the smelly kid asked someone if they smelled bad, and the person answered honestly, Yes, and smelly kid was offended. Well, no apology is needed for an honest opinion. I'm thinking in the original post way back at the dawn of time, the one boy asked the other boy's opinion and was then offended. Too bad, get over it. Otherwise, if one consistently reacts to honest opinions with hurt feelings, everyone will eventually learn to lie to them or give them the silent treatment just to avoid the hassle. So, what's it gonna be Scouters? Honest opinions followed by apologies or lies so you don't hurt their feelings when you know your opinion differs from theirs? The reason there is so much variance in answers on the topic is because there is no one simple answer to make this go away. Saying another kid's dad can only get respect if he earns it is not "bad behavior". It's not disrespect either, it's a tenet that a lot of people agree with and live by. But as I always say, your mileage may vary. Stosh

I'm with Jeffrey H on this one. "LNT" is something I've always done my entire life and the hype everyone uses today is nothing more than announcing to the world that Scouting needs a special program to tell the boys what they should already know. I've even been known to have my boys clean up the entire park they camped in because it was trashed by previous pseudo-campers. It was no big deal to the boys, and they made a game out of it to see who could collect up the most garbage. I have cut pit-fires in city parks for the better part of 10 years now and never had anyone complain. I've never suggested to my boys that they take LNT training, but in everything I do, I develop a respect for the outdoors that the boys all take to heart. They may trash an area when the camp for the weekend, but when we pull out, the place is better than spotless. After only a few trips with the boys, I've never had to remind them to clean up the site. YMMV, Stosh

Like anything else in the world, Eagle is not the beginning, middle, or end of anything. I put in 4 years of CSA and 4 years of BSA and reached the rank of 2nd Class. Yet today after 40 years of working with youth 30 of them in BSA, I can say that not having attained Eagle has has no impact on my life. Had I gotten Eagle, it would have had no impact on my life either. I camp at least 30-40 nights a year, I canoe, kayak, hike, bike, hunt, fish, ski/snowshoe and camp year around. Most Eagle Scouts of today would find it difficult to keep up with me and although all the boys in my troop have the opportunity, none of them do. My shore lunches are not gorp, power bars and fruity drinks, it's pan-fried fish, bisquits and coffee cooked over an open fire on the beach. And to think that it's possible for a boy to get Eagle and never light a fire. Once a Parlor Scout always a Parlor Scout? So be it. If that makes people happy, let them enjoy it. Once a Real Scout, always a Real Scout is my take on it. If some boy joined scouts, made it through TF and memorized the Oath and Law and for the rest of his life, took them to heart?... That I can live with. YMMV, Stosh

Early BSA literature used to refer to such pseudo-Scouts as Parlor Scouts vs. Real Scouts. And this honorary title for Eagles: "Once an Eagle always an Eagle" only identifies who they are, not what they do. There's a world of difference between the two. A true definition of a person's character is summed up in what they can do, not what someone says they are. I know of Real Eagle Scouts that if I were to go with them on a major BWCA trip, they'd have my back, and I know of other Parlor Eagle Scouts that I would basically have to babysit them through the expedition. I have some Real FC, Star and Life Scouts that I would prefer working with than some of the Parlor Eagles I have met along the way. One can be assured that the boy who "earns" his Eagle only to quit is definitely a Parlor Scout. The Eagle who stays with the program, ages out and signs up for ASM, is probably going to be what I call a Real Scout. YMMV, Stosh

If one must demand an apology from another, then whatever they get it will not be an apology. A statement of compliance to avoid further punishment is never an apology. One does not teach people to apologize, it's a natural reaction when one becomes aware that something has gone wrong with the situation. Otherwise it is a statement of compliance to curtail a problem. One does not need to apologize for their beliefs either. If this boy believes that respect must be earned. So be it. If you don't like it, don't hang around with people who have different beliefs than you. I happen to think along similar lines as this boy, do I, too, need to apologize to this other kid's dad? There are a lot of people who believe as this boy does and NONE OF THEM are expected to apologize to the boy or his dad. Thus this scout does not need to make apologies for his beliefs. The boy who's had his feelings hurt needs to basically grow up because he's going to run into a ton of people out there that will upset him on a daily basis and eventually he'll either be a hermit or learn to appreciate people of differing opinions. The only lesson learned from this situation is that in the case of the boy who's feelings got hurt... either lie to him or ignore him so you can stay out of trouble, but the last thing you ever want to do is express an honest opinion when asked. True friendship is based on honesty and respect, these two boys don't seem to be able to tolerate either and if their "friendship" has been harmed, I'm thinking it wasn't really there in the first place. Stosh

I would expect a TF scout to be able to work on the basics and use matches. But by the time they are FC they should know and have a working knowledge of fire-starters, gel starters, making egg-carton fire starters, candle stubs, magnesium lighters, etc. etc. By the time they are Star/Life they should be expert on preparing wet wood, finding different kinds of woods for different needs, and mastering the art of emergency fires. By the time he's Eagle he should be playing with bow/drill and flint/steel, just for fun! He is also a master of area preparation and fire safety as well. He has the resources to start a fire and snuff it all in the same place. And most importantly of all he can teach new scouts all this neat stuff and keep them safe in the process. Stosh

I wear a red Pendleton jacket that has two patch breast pockets and two slit lower pockets. In the many years I have been wearing it, no one has ever commented or even noticed that it's not a BSA jac-shirt. As far as cleaning wool... Soap and agitation do the most "damage" when cleaning a wool garment. This Christmas I received a pair of slippers that were HUGE! The gal that gave them to me said they needed to be felted. Okay, I'm game. She put them in the washer with a bit of soap and ran the agitator cycle over and over again for about 20 minutes. She'd drag the slippers out, measure them against my feet and toss them back in. Finally she said they were "done" and pressed (not wrung) out as much water as possible. Then she air dried (over the next 3 days, no hot air, no moving air, just regular temperature calm air) until they were finally ready to be worn. I do not live in a carpeted house, everything is wood, vinyl or tile. I also live in Wisconsin and I can't wait to get home and put my slippers on! Depending on how close of a fit the coat may be, I would not put it in a washing machine with agitator on. Of course one must also know the makeup of the "wool". It is pure wool? Is it a blend 15% nylon, 85% wool? etc. All these factors play into whether or not the coat will retain it's original size. The gal gave me felted mittens and wool socks and my hands and feet NEVER get cold anymore. Slippers this year and she asked me what I needed next and of course, stocking cap came to mind immediately! Stosh

So, let me get a visual on this.... A scout who has had a POR and is not currently in any POR will now run around with some sort of half-velcro thingy stuck on his left sleeve? Does this mean that now has to come off for 6 months while everyone waits for another election? Are these velcro things glued on so we will need a come up with a new way to remove goo other than badge magic or were they sewn on? Throwing a rock into a pond might have been a good idea at the time, but does anyone ever consider the effects of the ripples or is that someone else's problem? Stosh

Delegating duties is not leadership. It's management and there is a lot of difference between the two. If someone with an Eagle patch on his shirt delegates away a responsibility because he can't roll up his sleeves and get the job done, isn't much of an Eagle in my book. Managers manage tasks, leaders lead people. Eagle without having to build a fire? is really saying that BSA "leadership" relies on knowledge of a task without having to show proficiency. This ideological approach might be wonderful in theory, but the practicality of the situation is non-existent. It does however show that the new goal for Eagle is management, not leadership. "I know CPR, but because I'm an Eagle Scout I'm going to have you do the actual compressions and breathing for this person. I'm here to direct, mentor, guide all you first class scouts." When a true leader says "Follow me, boys" it means that he/she has rolled up their sleeves and already doing the activity. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

Learning to build a fire for survival, safety, or other emergencies is not impractical no matter where one lives. There are ways for the boys to learn the skill and they don't need to do it in the middle of a fireworks factory. Snow Sports MB is not a major necessity for all Scouts, so the Puerto Rico scouts may wish to take a pass on this, but building fires, making shelters, and other important survival skills are not optional nor impractical. An Eagle scout that has never learned to start an fire and can't demonstrate his ability to do so under adverse conditions is a Parlor Scout, not a Real Scout. The certificate, patch and medal do not make him an Eagle, what he knows and what he can do with it, does. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

"Dealing with a Pregnant Crewmember" ?? My question would be why would the crew need to deal with it at all? Obviously the girl is dealing with it. The father is dealing with it. The girl's and boy's families are dealing with. I'm sure the school is dealing with it as well as her church/synagogue. Being under aged, I'm sure some legal counsel is dealing with it as well as medical personnel. So with everyone on board why can't the crew just mind it's own business>\? I'm 60 years old and kids in my high school faced this same problem (45 years ago! Duh!) This "problem" has been around for a long time and no matter what the crew leadership does to mess in the situation it won't change anything one little bit. From where I stand, "concerned" people have been trying to deal with this issue for 40 years and haven't gained one inch of progress on it. MYOB And when the dust settles is it really what the girl thinks of the Scout Law? or is it more important for me to know what Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Kind, Brave means for ME! For those who are dead-bent on judging this girl, they might wish to consider their own position first... that is before they toss the first stone. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

BadenP, I don't disagree with you one bit. I'm a bigot because I don't like people who don't like other people. There will always be those out there that push my buttons in some way or another, but how I choose to react makes a world of difference. It's called tolerance and in a zero-tolerant society, it kinda makes me an enigma. If I choose not to act on my feelings, that's an act I am willing to do to preserve a sense of civility around me. Do I like all black people, nope, do I like all white people, nope, do I like all (fill in the blank) people, nope. But that doesn't absolve me of making an effort to try and get along. Does that choice on my part make be better than the rest. Probably not, but I do respect those who make an effort to get along. There's a very thin line between name calling and using words to describe a situation. If I perhaps use the term Uniform Nazi, it's not because I think the other person is supporting genocide, but in reference to the two words together I am attempting to show that this person's activities are a bit over the top when it comes to uniforms. Having a uniform inspection sheet does not mean that the person is a Uniform Nazi, it means that the person simply wishes to do it correctly and is using the information on the sheet to give guidance. However, if the numerals on the shirt don't actually touch the council strip, I'm going to still give credit for the attempt to at least have the numerals on the correct sleeve. If the knots are upside down, so be it. They are sewn over the correct pocket, that's good enough for me. Blue jeans? Well, that's way out of bounds according to the sheet. So in some ways I'm a Uniform Nazi and in other ways I'm not. Judge all you want, but the act of judging is what makes bigots in the first place. We all make judgments, but how we choose to act on them is what sets apart certain individuals into the realm of civility. I don't wish to be associated with the NAACP regardless of it's history. I don't wish to be associated with the KKK regardless of it's history, either. The things BSA promotes is what I wish to associate with. No gays? Well my last Eagle Scout professed his orientation. Until he turns 18, the BSA doesn't care, but it can do what it wishes to do after that. I'm not going to be loosing any sleep over it either way. Basically, it's not my problem and I'm not going to get involved. MYOB and tolerance goes a long way to promoting civility in the world in which I live. Your mileage may vary, Stosh