Stosh

If one uses Barry's idea of fear and ego, I'm thinking it is more ego than fear. A SM has in his/her mind that the success of the the troop rests solely on him/her and then proceeds to insure it happens. The SM thus turns into a control freak. If one abdicates one's authority to allow someone else the opportunity to do the job, one has to be ready to accept that it may fail. This is not good for one's ego. So if one does allow the boys any opportunity, it is only on a short leash so as to jerk them back into line if necessary to insure success. This guarantees the boys a safety net that they can rely on and never gives them the opportunity to "go it alone", i.e. toss them into the deep end of the pool and allow them to figure it out on their own. Whenever I give the boys an opportunity to be responsible for something I also give them total authority to insure its success based upon their actions. Yes, I risk my SM ego in the process, but when I do get a success it far outweighs the times when my ego gets bruised. If I expect the boys to succeed, I usually get it. I win when the boy wins! Do I get chaos and disaster occasionally? Yep. We had a potential new recruit come visit our troop and while there, there were three patrols all working on something different. One patrol was doing requirements, sitting around a table while the Instructor showed them how to do some first aid things. This looked good to the recruit's parents. The second patrol was doing some lashings and basically doing what boys do, whipping each other with the ropes, waving the poles around somewhat carelessly but still getting the job done, eventually! The third patrol was doing a game and, well, you can imagine what that looked like to an outsider. The recruit never came back, but joined the other adult-led troop in the area where everything ran smoothly and were kept in line every minute of the meeting. For all intents and purposes it looked good. However no boy was doing anything in terms of leadership, it was all run by the adults. A boy-led program will never look as polished and well run as an adult-led program. My ego can accept that because when all the dust settles, I have boys that have really lead in the process and not followed the directives on an adult leader. In terms of troop reputation the adults of the district and council hold the other troop in higher esteem than mine. So what! I know what I have, the boys know what they have and none of them would trade what they have for the "benefits" of the other troop. The opportunity for Sea Base, BWCA and Philmont are given to my boys just as much as those of the other troop, and we are signed up for Philmont in 2013. Although only half the size of the other troop, we put out two Eagles last year the same as the other troop. If one truly cares for their boys and expects their success in the process, one's ego can be put on the shelf and all fear goes by the wayside. Do I get parents that are concerned as to how my troop is run? Not very often. Do I get comments about how much their boy has matured and is more confident in school and other activities besides scouts? All the time. It's a trade off that they seem willing to accept. Do I have parents that pull their boys out of the program? Yep, but they tend to be those that are threatened by the maturity and independence these boys are taking on. Their dear little boy isn't a little boy for very long in my troop. I even had one parent complain that their boy was expected to take on an adult's job in the troop. When the smoke settled on that hassle, their boy had done the job so well it surprised even the parents. Believe in your boys, expect the best and one can very easily leave one's ego at the door without any fear at all. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

LOL! Well said Scoutfish When I started scouts I already had 7 years experience camping and hanging out in the woods. I could already do a 10 mile hike, make a fire, and cook in a messkit. That was my very first experience as a Boy Scout and I did it while wearing my Cub Scout uniform. A year later I was American Red Cross Lifeguard certified. And yet I never got beyond second class after 4 years of scouting. Eventually joined Civil Air Patrol where they allowed me to use my skills and talents. I was Radio Man First Class and manned the base radios during real search and rescue missions. Flew hundreds of hours on search and rescue missions as well. The #1 thing I learned from scouting was to never do to a boy what was done to me. I make sure every boy gets more than enough opportunities to do what he does best! Never underestimate the leadership resources and Scoutcraft skills some of your boys come to the program with, if you do, YOU miss the greatest opportunity of all. Then again, my parents were under the opinion that boys should not spend more than a half hour in front of the TV, without going outside for an hour or two. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

The more I think about it the more I begin to ponder the idea that the patrol of just a few buddies provides an singular environment that isn't duplicated anywhere else for the boy to develop in. Sports are larger groups lead by adults School is larger groups led by adults Church is yet another large group led by the pastor Family is a small group but it is led by parents Hanging out at the mall is usually a small group, but no real leadership/organization And yet, where can a boy learn about marriage (buddy system) and or family (patrol method) except using the patrol structure in BSA. It's a size he can actually lead and be successful in while building real life experience he will someday need. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

If you truly believe in your boys, you never expect them to fail. My boys never fail! They struggle, they stumble, they miss out, they screw-up, but they never fail because every struggle, every stumble, every missed opportunity is nothing more than a lesson in obtaining success. "Develop success from failures. Discouragement and failure are two of the surest stepping stones to success." - Dale Carnegie "Failure is success if we learn from it." - Malcolm Forbes "In order to succeed you must fail, so that you know what not to do the next time." - Anthony J. D'Angelo "One secret of success in life is for a man to be ready for his opportunity when it comes." - Benjamin Disraeli Scouting gives opportunity to succeed, not fail. In a small group of 8 buddies, they can and will succeed every time. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

I used to be a Nationally Certified EMT-A with 15 year's experience and having been in the business, I know that I probably could not have done any better in the field with limited resources than the SM on the FL trek. Everyone is different! As an active Captain of a reenactment group dealing with adults wearing heavy wool uniforms on very hot summer days, I have had heat related problems many many times in the past 10 years. One can expect a 15-20 minute wait for an ambulance with advanced equipment and I've considered myself to be a very lucky person never having lost anyone. Even then I have had more resources available to me than the FL SM. Battlefield Ice Angels carry ice for the boys in the field and I have actually packed downed soldiers in ice and brought them back from convulsions. Without the ice I probably wouldn't have been so lucky. Knowledge, equipment, time and a ton of luck! To think more training to provide more knowledge is enough is only putting a bandaid on a serious problem. Prevention is the key with any medical situation. When I was with the reenacting Venture Crew I required each boy to carry two 2.5 qt canteens and at least every 15 minutes were required to take a long drink! If a boy said he just did and I didn't notice, he did it again! I never had a boy go down. As a matter of fact, I've never had anyone in my command go down. Prevention is the key! True leadership - take care of your people! Your mileage may vary Stosh

Parents always get dealt a hand of all trump cards. True success or failure of their children is their responsibility. Scouting is just a tool they can use to accomplish their goals for their children. Scouting can get a boy all excited about adventure and fun, but the parents have the final say-so. I haven't always been in agreement about the above situation, but it's a reality that I have had to live with. If a parent uses Scouting as a punishment because they didn't do their homework, so be it, that's the way that family runs its business. Stosh

Just a couple of observations from working with kids in a variety of different programs and why I think BSA's patrol method is the best. 1) Program ownership is in the hands of the people who benefit the most from it. 2) Youth deserve/need opportunities to learn experience on their own, not just follow along with what the parent, teacher, coach, teacher tells them to do. 3) Builds self confidence in knowing that they can, if they want succeed, at things adults didn't think they could. 4) Kids will design the proper activities if given the free rein to work it out on their own, problem solve hurdles, overcome challenges, do teamwork that they control, not some adult. 5) Experience true leadership of their own design that meets their skill levels, interest levels, and speed of progress. Every group (patrol) is different with it's own unique characteristics that can accomplish things that other groups (patrols) can't and thus like individuals excel at what they set out to do. 6) The bonds developed in a small group will stick with them a lot longer (assuming that someone doesn't consistently disrupt them). 8 Boys coming into Tigers together and eventually all having a ECOH together will probably be life-long friends. 7) Small groups with self-leadership is a unique experience for most adolescents in today's US society. They cannot get this opportunity anywhere other than in the patrol method of Scouting. 8) Because of it's unique nature the learning curve of the Patrol Method is quite a challenge, but then again, so is growing up and taking on adult responsibilities is too. It's just that these youth get the opportunity to do it in a safe, caring environment before they reach 18. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

If the average size of a troop in the US is 14... Do the math 6-8 boys to a patrol... okay 2 small patrols of 7 SPL/ASPL take out okay now 2 very small patrols of 6 Any other troop officers need to be in a patrol or have a patrol of their own. Okay... 1 older boy patrol 1 younger boy patrol. Older boy patrol has PL APL Scribe QM Chaplain Aide Historian Younger Boy patrol has PL APL TG Instructor DC Scout with no POR.... By the time the smoke settles everyone pretty much has a POR. All chiefs and no Indians.... Looks good on paper, but has to be a real mess trying to get enough work for each of the boys to really earn the POR. Maybe just wearing the patch should be enough for the average sized troop. Otherwise... One patrol of 14 (troop method) SPL - really runs the patrol/troop ASPL - helps as needed PL - Wears the patch defers everything to SPL APL - Wears the patch defers everything to ASPL Scribe QM TG Instructor Historian Chaplain Aide DC 3 boys with no POR (no need for a second PL/APL)... Well, there's really no need for a PL/APL if the SPL/ASPL are really running the show anyway. Even more boys wearing patches without any functionality Is it any wonder then why most boys really don't actually do anything to fulfill their POR's other than wearing the patch for 6 months? Your mileage may vary, Stosh

On the other hand, maybe the youth should be given a chance to prove the adults wrong, this is how experience in leadership is developed in the first place. "Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgment." - Barry LePatner The adults may be correct, but if one wishes to change it, the youth need to be given the opportunity to learn, otherwise if the adults keep doing it for them, they will never learn and will never be capable. It is not our job to maintain the status quo. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

BOR Member: So, Johnny, what did you do for POR for your rank advancement. Johnny: I didn't have a POR, but over the course of the past 6 months I did the work of the SPL. I did this... this.... this.... this.... this... and I also did the work of the QM. I did this... this.... this.... this... I was kinda an APL to help Donnie the PL with his patrol when I did this.... this... this.... to help him out for a while. The Scribe had basketball so I did his stuff while he was gone, too. BOR Member: So you didn't have a POR? That's going to be a problem on your rank advancement. Johnny: Well I did a special project for the SM, does that count? BOR Member: What was that? Johnny: I showed leadership in the troop where it was needed. BOR Member: Oh, okay, I guess we can count that to get you by. But next time you'll need a real POR. Johnny: ???? Your mileage may vary, Stosh

This is why I put this paragraph in.... Every youth leader needs to remember the words: "With all due respect, the members of this ship have decided to do our own activities. Thank you for your input, we will take it under advisement." Without arrogance, disrespect, or whatever other negative you can think of, it gently emphasizes the fact that the youth feel they are ready and it is okay for them to step up and participate in more than just the receiving end of the program. We have people on this forum struggling to get their youth to step up to the plate and take the reins of THEIR program and others making sure the boys (and girls) keep in their place and don't make waves. Can't have it both ways! There aren't many youth out there in today's world that are going to put up with: "You can run your own show as long as you do it the way the adults tell you to." First of all this is stifling the youth's leadership talents and in fact rudely telling the youth that the adults are going to be the ones with ultimate authority in how things get done. Ideally, these two can find some kind of non-rude common ground where they cooperate and share the leadership of the ship. The troop I used to be associated with was 95%/5% breakdown between adult/youth leadership, but in the troop I am now those numbers are reversed with 95% of the work, planning, deciding being done by the youth. The other 5% is mandated by BSA so the adults have to be involved somewhat. I would never advocate rudeness on the part of any youth, nor would I advocate it for any adult either. So far if one were to keep score, I see more bullying and arrogance from the ranks of the adults than I do from the ranks of the youth. Both sides need to be treating each other as peers. Obviously if the goal is to produce scout leaders, the expectation is to treat each other as such. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

dkurtenbach: I think you summed it up even better than what I was trying to describe. I'm seeing EDGE as an adult-led management tool that we are trying to teach to the youth. Unfortunately it does little or nothing for the development of real leadership. Your "Hondo" approach is pure leadership, literally sink or swim! If you don't know, you had better figure it out and figure it out quickly! These are leadership skills! I always use the Hondo approach first and if it doesn't work out in the best interest of the boy, I will supplement it with a wee bit of guiding suggestions, but I do every little with the management methods, including EDGE. Using your analogy, the TF boys get tossed in the shallow end of the pool to get their feet wet (literally) with the process. They are now experiencing a problem, their feet are wet. Figure it out! Either walk around until your feet dry off or change your shoes and socks. It's not that difficult to figure this out and doesn't need EDGE management training. As the boy gets older and better adapted at figuring things out for himself then toss him into deeper water.... His learning curve is based on his personal experiences, not some theoretical explanation and demonstration conducted/led/managed by adults! A number of years ago our troop had a bad experience at our council's summer camp and our boys were not happy. When my youth leaders complained to me, I simply suggested that they do something about it. (Hondo approach). The panic/blank look on their faces prompted me to state: "The council camp isn't the only BSA camp in the state!" From that point onward I did nothing to get ready for summer camp the next summer. A new camp was found that promised to meet their particular needs, they registered, picked out MB's, collected $$ and did everything. I drove, pulled the troop trailer, and filled the position of one of the two-deep leadership for the week. That was the sum total of my involvement. All my ASM's and other adults did even less! The boys got absolutely no training in how to set up, organize, plan and execute summer camp activities. They figured it all out on their own without any adult involvement! This year (yet another scout) has been working on summer camp arrangements for a month now and reported just last Monday that the camp's website hadn't yet been updated for next summer's program. There is no ASM advising them, hounding them, making sure they are on task, or guiding, mentoring, directing, coaching them in any of this process. The boys are doing the leading, period! If you want to get to summer camp, you had better learn quickly how to get yourself there! The EDGE method trains managers.... The Hondo method trains leaders.... Love John Wayne! EDGE assumes (love that word) the trainer is the expert and the trainee is a total dolt. You need detailed instructions on exactly how to do a simple task, i.e. tie a knot. This process trains the listener to master a task based on memorized steps of instructions. It does NOTHING to develop the thought processes to be able to take limited information and apply it in other areas of problem solving, a very important facet of developing leadership skills! Yipee! I can tie a knot, but if someone tossed me in the water, would I know what to do with it? If I can't swim, maybe I can tie a knot in my necker and tie it to a canoe and hang on. Or maybe, I can just reach up and grab the canoe and forget about tying the stupid knot! Leaders can be managers, but managers don't have to be leaders. Stosh

What I can never figure out is how the youth always find it necessary to put themselves in the position of being victims in these kinds of situations. Leadership means just that- Leading! One cannot be a victim unless they allow themselves to be that by following along blindly to someone else's leadership. 1) The youth make out their calendar and take charge of their program/ship. Make your plans and stick with it. 2) If adults have alternative activities, take them under advisement, and if it sounds like fun and it can fit into the existing calendar, then add it. Otherwise ignore it. What the adults don't realize and usually bully their way into the situation is that the youth make or break the program. The program would not exist without the participation of the youth. The youth inherently dictate the mission and purpose of the program. If they don't want to do an activity, they don't show up. If they want an activity, they'll show up. If the adults have any sense about them, they would understand this. However, if the adults think they can get away with bullying and intimidation to run what THEY think is the ideal program and the youth let them, then it's the youth's fault for abdicating their authority. Every youth leader needs to remember the words: "With all due respect, the members of this ship have decided to do our own activities. Thank you for your input, we will take it under advisement." It's not an issue of getting adults to step back, it's an issue of helping adults be supportive of the youth directed program. It sounds like in sailingpj's original post that the adults didn't have much of a program anyway. So if they are not going to be effective anyway, I would suggest just doing your own thing and ignoring them should be pretty easy. If adults get angry and leave, they are replaceable. If youth get angry and leave, the program collapses. Do the math! Your mileage may vary, Stosh

And so this takes us to the ultimate question between adult and boy-led programs. You pull up to the campsite with 4 cars 2 trucks and a trailer full of camping equipment. Why would any adult "suggest/ask/direct/coach/mentor" to the boy leader where, when, how or why anyone should set up camp? Unless the boy is a total air-head, it should have dawned on him what was coming next once he got out of the car without some adult having to tell him like he's a two-year old. If one treats their boys like they are dolts, they will act that way. As long as adults treat their boys like children that can't figure things out for themselves, they will stay that way. Why learn when some adult is going to teach you. Why problem solve anything, some adult is going to tell you what to do eventually. Why take initiative on any priorities, the adults will tell you what you need to do next. Don't worry about screwing up, some adult will have a backup plan anyway and they'll take over. If adults keep doing these kinds of things there boys will NEVER step up and take over! Why should they?! Until they absolutely have to without any safety net, these boys will prefer to sit on their hands than venture forth with any leadership. When I get out of the car, I usually find my equipment, look for a site away from the boys and start putting my tent up. Once that's done, I set up my chair and then find my coffee cup and either make coffee or start wandering around other sites looking to mooch a cup from someone. What the boys do is entirely up to them. What do the other adults do? Exactly the same thing. Safety net? Nope, I don't carry a spare key for the trailer. That's not my job. That's what I have a QM for. Until he asks me to carry a spare key, it's all up to him to it figure out. If I was camping with a group of adults, I would do EXACTLY the same thing! Except I would pitch in and help with the common equipment chores. But I'm only present to fulfill the 2-deep leadership requirements for BSA, and I can do that sitting in my chair drinking coffee. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

A lot of times boys will not step up because it's not their job. PL is supposed to lead, everyone else sits on their hands. Whoever has the patch does the work, everyone else sits on their hands. If one sits on their hands long enough, an adult will take over. If someone screws up, just sit on your hands, the adults will bail us out. Don't know what to do, fumble around for a while and some adult will tell you what to do, oops, mentor and guide you into doing something. All these things are symptoms of an adult led program as far as I'm concerned. Until the boys have the authority they will never accept the responsibility. Heck, neither would I. Kids at that age aren't as stupid as we give them credit for. I don't assume my kids are not leaders or too stupid to take on adult level responsibilities. Hmmm, lets see here now... if I sit quietly long enough someone else will get railroaded into the scout leadership position. If I'm sufficiently inadequate in the job, they won't ask me to do it again. Heck, we've all played these games, and it comes natural to kids to play games. Getting youth to step up? I get an advertisement/pamphlet for a council activity at roundtable. I take it to the next troop meeting and after opening flags, I wave it in front of the boys and ask, "Who wants to take the lead on this?" If no one says anything I crumple it up and toss it in the garbage can. And yes, I have had boys retrieve the information out the garbage to see what it was and then have them follow up and do the activity. If they don't want to go, why waste energy trying to get them to go? If a boy, any boy!, doesn't need to be a leader, says he wants to take lead, he gets the pamphlet and I promptly forget about it. There's no rules that says he has to have a patch or be of a certain rank. If he's TF and wants to organize summer camp, he can do it. I don't care. If the boys want to go bad enough, they will all gather up around the TF scout and figure out how to get themselves there without any training, directing, prompting, mentoring, coaching, etc. Did mom or dad show the kids how to work the X-Box? Heck no! They are capable of problem solving, following directions, and getting what they want. Give them the opportunity and get out of the way. In the past 3 years, all camporees, klondikes, summer camp, canoe trips, popcorn sales, fundraisers, service projects, Eagle projects, winter outings, hikes, Jamboree etc. have been planned, organized, executed, by the boys in the troop. My ASM's are forbidden to do anything more than support them when asked and then respond only with suggestions as to what they might want to consider. I don't wish to convey the idea that this is the only way to run a boy-led program, but with the lack of adults involved, it is easy to see that if anything gets done, it is done by the boys or it doesn't happen. The first year about 2/3'rds of the programs simply didn't happen. After a while they began to figure out how it worked and now we don't miss out on much of anything. Right now I have two boys working on two different activities that fall on the same weekend. It'll be interesting to see how it all shakes out. Have the boys designed, organized and carried out activities other than those suggested by adults? Yep, they did a high adventure backpack outing last summer along with summer camp and Jamboree. As an adult I only worked on organizing the Jamboree because it was an adult led program. The only thing I did for summer camp was drive, pull the trailer, and sit around for the week and read books. Youth will not step up for anything unless they have a vested interest in it and total permission to proceed (Authority). Well, make an opportunity for them and then get out of the way. My boys have total authority in the projects they select to lead. No adult is involved to usurp that authority and with authority they will become comfortable with the responsibility that follows. Too often we give the boys responsibility without authority and then we sit around and mentor them into the results we wish for them to have. Until total authority is given over to them, they will never have the confidence level to do it. The reason why they make questionable and unsure decisions is because they are trying to guess what YOU want them to do. They already know what they want to do but they don't have the authority to make the call. This is called setting the boys up to fail. It is not leadership, it is trying to guess what the real leader wants because he/she isn't tell us outright. Fooling a boy into thinking he's leading through adult manipulation isn't true leadership anyway. Fooling a boy is really fooling oneself, because boys have this all figured out anyway. My CC and Committee have given me carte-blanche authority as SM to run a boy-led program. I in turn have given carte-blanche authority to the boys to run it. To me that's what is meant by boy-led. We sink or swim on the merits of the boys and now after 3 years are pretty darn good at getting things done without any adult involvement. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

As I said originally, do your own thing so as to deliver the program to the boys. Get volunteers and organize oneself into a "functional" committee regardless of what's on paper. As soon as someone asks questions just go back to the paper and say this is how it works and then any honorary people are just that, looking good on paper. As long as the boys get a high quality program with dedicated adults stepping up and doing the work, then it doesn't make a bit of difference who's garnering up all the credit. Sometimes being right isn't always what's in the best interest of the boys. You might have 8 people all listed on paper as MC's, and one non-functioning CC. Okay one of the 8 is functionally really the chair and goes to the CC every time they need a signature for a new leader. Is the battle really necessary to have all the paper work adjusted so as to embarrass some ancient Scouter who doesn't show up for meetings anymore? I do this with my boys all the time and there's never any problem. None of them wear POR patches and leadership rotates around depending on the interest and availability of any of the boys. Continuity? It isn't necessary. After a while all the boys get good at all the positions and then things get done quickly and efficiently. If the CC drops the ball, there should be 3-4 others on the committee that are good enough that they can pick it up and run with it for a month or two. Pass around the responsibilities among the committee members and before you know it any of them could do a fairly good job as CC and the committee functions just fine. Everyone ends up helping everyone else and no one gets their nose out of joint. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

While it was not Scouting, I did face a similar situation many moons ago. I was "it" the person tagged to do all the work. Yeah, right. That's going to happen. So, what I did was take all the activities and events from the previous year and title a single 8 1/2" x 11" piece of paper with the name of each of the activity/event. Then I had sign up lines below. Chairperson was at the top of every listing, and then another column for the dollars necessary to make it happen. I had extra sheets for any other new ideas for events/activities that someone might want to post too. I posted them all all and for one month advertised participation in signing up for anyone and everyone who wanted to see things happen in the group. Well, at the end of a month, some of the sheets didn't have so much as a pencil scratch on them. Those were thrown away. Those that didn't have enough money were thrown away, those that didn't have the number of lines filled out by helping hands were thrown away. I even threw one away that had everything filled out except the chairperson line. I collated the one or two events/activities that were completely filled out and put together a calendar for the year. A friend of mine did the same thing in a Cub Scout pack and they didn't have a Blue/Gold that year. I ran a nice program the first year pretty much all by myself. Any and all complaints were ignored because they had their opportunity to get involved and chose not to participate. Coming around to complain later basically fell on deaf ears. Once everyone found out that you were 100% dead serious about this whole process, the second year went rather smoothly. Sign-up sheets were filled out, money committed, and the calendar went together smoothly. Everyone knew what they needed to do for the year and that was the end of it. As long as people know they can take advantage of others, they will do so and CM's and SM will continue to burn out right and left. But those that choose not to become victims need a backbone to support themselves. Lay out your agenda, and follow it regardless of how much crap comes your way. If you do a nice job, they'll ask you to do it again, if not they'll find someone else to abuse. It's a win either way for you. So, quit worrying about someone else not doing their job, just do your own the best you can. You can't change others as readily and quickly as you can change yourself. People who can't be trusted to do what they say they are going to do are a total waste of my time. I don't need their support because they aren't offering any, quit expecting it. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

And suppose the council's position is to offer the best white milk that money can buy, but all the boys prefer chocolate milk. Too often entrenched thinking can end up producing an excellent program that no one really wants. My boys have camped out of council for the past two summers and are planning to do so again this summer. Bad blood? Nope, it's not a program the boys want. The boys select their camps they wish to go to, vote and then go. It's interesting to note the dynamics of the selection process. Our camp has a brand new training center, new dining hall, expanded camp facilities, new pool, climbing tower, new gun/archery ranges, and fire-bowl and yet the boys have selected a camp that is primitive, no dining hall, lake, etc. In my estimation both camps are excellent, but one isn't what the boys really want. Sometimes fresh eyes on district/council boards can see things that the old-guard can't see anymore. I like the idea of rotating, short-term responsibilities because they promote new ideas better. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

The bridging crossover is not necessary to join Scouts. Like the Eagle rank, there's a lot of hoopla abut AOL to the point where it is now a graduation ceremony from Cub Scouts. In my book, getting Eagle/AOL is not the graduation of anything other than getting accolades that you can put on your resume and college applications. If this doesn't seem reasonable, just ask yourself, how many AOL patches get sewn on Cub Scout shirts and how many Eagle patches get sewn on Boy Scout shirts? When I was a WDL, my boys wore their AOL patch on their Cub Scout shirts for almost a year before they crossed over into Boy Scouts. I also have a Boy Scout right now that's active in my troop that has worn his Eagle patch on his shirt for over a year now. I would sit down with the boys and let them tell the adults what they want for an AOL bridging ceremony. And of course with any activity that sits on the gap between the two programs, who's responsible for the ceremony? The Cub pack that is anxious to exit the boys or the Boy Scout troop that is anxious to welcome the boys? Here's your patch, here's your arrow, here's the door. Have a nice life. Stosh

SERIOUS NOTE: While at summer camp in grizzly country we received bear training along with all other orientation for the week from the National Park Service-Yellowstone. The new procedure is not to curl up in a ball. Lie flat on your stomach, spread your legs put hands behind your head and keep your elbows out. The idea is to keep from getting turned over and expose throat and underbelly. In a curled position you're already half exposed. Do this only if you're alone. Otherwise group together to make yourselves appear to be larger than a singular person. Bears have poor eyesight and will not attack something that it thinks is bigger than they are. So do not have all the boys run! Instead group together and make lots of noise. Grizzlies are bigger and more aggressive and will attack to fight. If you don't fight back, they'll give up quickly. Black bears are protective/defensive and will be less likely to give up. Of course keep the SM in the middle of the group so he can direct the action... Your mileage may vary, Stosh

By the time members of groups start looking for rules, regulations, and by-laws to prove their positions, it means that the conflict has gotten to an irreconcilable level. Obviously someone's got to go. This is not an issue of voting rights, it's an issue of who's gotta go. This is where a group of parents go off and start a new troop/pack..... It's called the divorce level of conflict. Thinking one can think up a wonderful solution to the problem is nothing more than a fanciful game. If the inability to work together has gotten people this far into conflict, it's going to take a small miracle to get them out. Hopefully, E-Mtns's question is only for informational purposes and not because the SM is causing problems, or wants to cause problems, or the CC is giving the SM a hassle and using the Committee to back him/her. All this adult bickering does not do anything to help out the scouts and most often does more damage than necessary. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

While in bear country always make sure there is at least one scout that can't run as fast as the SM. Stosh

My troop doesn't have by-laws, leastwise, none that I'm aware of. Maybe the three rules we use are all that we need. 1) Safety First 2) Look and act like a Scout 3) Have fun They aren't written down anywhere so I'm assuming they don't make much of a by-law thingy. We only have a couple of small patrols now, so we don't have a PLC nor do we have an SPL unless some activity expects one, then the person organizing that activity takes on that role. Patrols kinda do their own thing and everyone (adults) supports their efforts. The Committee, flush with popcorn money, asked (yes, asked!) the boys to do an inventory and come up with a wish list for them to consider. QM is in charge of that and will make a presentation based on their findings. The CC has informed me the process they will adopt will be take the boys' prioritized list and start from top down until the money runs out. The CO made a generous donation to the boys this year and that money will allow more on the list to be purchased. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

Sorry, I just read the question as one for Webelos going to a Klondike for the day. I've been going to Klondikes for years and we haven't lost any of the boys yet, but they do get cold, thirsty and wet so I just went with a practical suggestion. Sometimes it doesn't really accomplish anything to assume more than what the person has written. The mirror? Most of the Webelos boys don't shave yet, so I'm thinking that won't work out too well for them. Most Boy Scouts don't know how to use a signal mirror so that's one item that gets left behind. I would suggest a laser pointer. Raises hell in the cockpit of an airplane and when the rescue team gets there they might arrest you, but dang, they're going to know where you are faster than a mirror. I always thought it rather strange even 50 years ago to carry a dime for making a phone call. I never could find many phone booths out in the woods. If I ever did, just following the phone lines away from the booth would lead anyone back to civilization. Then you could use the money to buy a candy bar. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

A SM doesn't need to vote on the Committee. If he/she doesn't like the direction the Committee wishes to have the program take, he/she just moves on down the road. If the Committee decides to veer off from the accepted BSA program then it's probably not such a bad idea to be heading for the door anyway. I was a crew adviser (NL) and the Committee made some decisions I couldn't go along with and so when they announced their plans, I announced mine as well. When one has only so many hours in the day to dedicate to helping youth, one has to be careful so as to not waste them. Your mileage may vary, Stosh