Stosh

6-8 boys in a patrol.... they are allowed to figure that out anyway they want anytime they want. Adults stay out of the process. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

I have my own recipe of chocolates and spices. Stosh

Nonsense??? If they aren't getting what they think they want they leave. Any other explanation is nonsense. Sports, cars, and girls are excuses, not reasons. I know of a lot of boys that can balance those "excuses" just fine and stay with Scouts. These new boys don't necessarily all think they are going to be Eagles in a couple of weeks, but they do know what they want today and it's up to either 1) the troop tells them what that is or 2) you ask them what it is. It just depends on which of those one chooses. And with a 95% attrition rate in the standard BSA program, I'm thinking most troops opt for #1. To me this is the real nonsense. If it is my expectation that for the next 4 years my team is going to be conference champions and for the first three years we've been sitting in the basement of the standings, what makes me want to go back a 4th year? Oh, I can't go out for the team this year, I have a new car, or a new girlfriend, or (fill in the blank). If my Webelos boys want to go to Philmont (their stated goal from day one) then it's up to me to provide a program that supports that. As long as they continue to see progress towards that, they'll stick around, otherwise they will move on to something else. Well, if the requirement for Philmont is 13 years old and FC, then they have a preliminary goal from which to start, but Philmont stays on the table. People (especially adults) telling others what they "want" just doesn't work in the real world. Welcome to Boy Scouts. For the first 6 months all you new boys will be given classroom instruction so you have skills to go out into the woods. Yes we'll go out and work on those skills once a month. Then at the end of 6 months, you and all your buddies you've been hanging out since Tigers are going to be split up in all the other patrols where the older boys can teach you things. Don't worry, you'll get to know the boys after a while and you'll have fun. But if we want to stay together? Nope, not an option, if you don't like it quit or find another troop. Gotta love the logic in that. Even 11 year old boys see the gaping holes in that argument. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

We do not participate in the T-2-1 classes at camp. Every time we did, it was a waste of time. Now my boys go to First Aid and Swimming a fun MB just like any other scout at camp. That's the way camp is set up anyway and that's what they do best. If one wishes to have ideas for how to run a T-2-1 program, here's what I would like to see happen. TG Program If (and only if) a troop wants an TG/Instructor staff member to come to their site for T-2-1 training, they can sign up for one. This person comes to the troop site and conducts T-2-1 training by assisting the TG in that process and helps the boys actually work on what they wish to be covering for advancement. This information should be readily available to the TG and passed to the staff member to emphasize and help the TG accomplish with HIS boys. If they are doing first aid, the staff member provides the equipment to the TG so he can do his thing. If some knot tying is on the docket that day, he brings ropes and is the second pair of eyes assisting and supporting the TG be successful. Does this mean the TG misses out on MB's? Yep, but that's what he signed on for, helping the new scouts with THEIR advancement. Having a staff member who has added resources to help him is vital to the troop's success! The staff member is not there to babysit the new guys so others can run off and have fun, he's there to support what the troop is doing and giving insight into what they might want to do once the week of camp is over. This way the program is tailored to the needs of the new boys, they aren't bored, and the responsibility for advancement stays where it belongs, with the TG and his Instructors. If the older boys are responsible for the advancement of the new boys, it should stay with them, not taken over by a staff member to babysit the best they can in adverse conditions and thus accomplish nothing. Yes, it will take extra staff members to pull this off (maybe not if a troop decides it doesn't want to participate). If a staff member comes in for a hour, then goes to another troop for an hour while that TG works with his boys, then return for a second hour to review and do more. That way 1 staff can handle 2 troops, etc. I guess what it boils down to is the program designed to make the camp look good by providing a T-2-1 program, or is the staff there to provide support to the troops needing help. Maybe the staff will only touch base with the TG who says, Monday I need first aid stuff and the staff member drops it off for the TG to do his thing and then returns later to pick it up. Tuesday we need rope, okay staff drops it off, offers help for an hour tying knots and takes the rope back to storage. Maybe there's a knot game the staff member can suggest to the TG/Instructors. Wednesday they want to do swimming requirements, okay staff coordinates with waterfront to have personnel there to help the TG with the swimming requirements. Thursday the staff member provides all the compass stuff and offers up an idea where the TG can do his 5 mile hike with the boys suggesting they do the 10 plants and animals along the way. Staff member provides the materials for the 10 plant/animal game that the camp has set up! Friday the staff member shows up and helps out for an hour wrapping up loose ends. Logistically this could be a nightmare, but that's the challenge the camp is going to need to meet if they wish to provide an effective, useful program that supports the work of the troops instead of what works best for the camp. If this is a truly - SUPPORT THE TG run program, adults who really understand boy-led could volunteer as CampMasters to go to other troops and provide this service if they were provided the materials to get to the different troops. I wouldn't mind using my camp time by going to a different troop with equipment for their TG to use with his boys and be available to answer any questions they might need and help the boys tie knots, referee knots games, etc. But NOT do it for the TG. Troop XX in Beaver Camp will be working on compass, pick up the compass box from the staff office marked Troop XX and get it to their camp by 8:00 am. Hey, I can do that! They might need you to hang around they have 20 new scouts. Not a problem! Oh, by the way, keep the box because Troop YY needs it the next day get it to them by 8:00 am, but they only have 5 new scouts and you need to hang out if the TG asks you to. I can do that, too! To me this is what CampMasters should be all about, SUPPORT staff, not instructors! Maybe your T-2-1 Staff member will do nothing more than coordinate this process and step in when there's a lack of CampMasters for the week. The T-2-1 Staff member would do most of his work in setting up the process before camp starts and then keeping an eye on it to keep it running smoothly during the week. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

Buron, It would appear that everyone reacted according to what was important in their heart. Only you can determine that for yourself. Don't rely on traditions, expectations, or the legalistic wording of what a volunteer is. Do what you think is right in your heart. If you are led to do a gift, great. Look at the boys/adults that helped. Maybe after reviewing that, a EOCH/Pizza Party might be the best thing for you to do. (just a suggestion, on my part) In my heart, I always consider the person I wish to give a gift to. That would mean that I would need 50 different gifts if I were to consider 50 different people. Otherwise I would rely on the feelings of my helpers with a pizza party where I could gather them all up, fill their stomachs with something tasty and get up afterward and let them know from my heart how much I appreciate their help because without them, this ECOH would have never happened. Surprisingly, your words will be received by each listener in their own way, the goal I was wishing to accomplish in the first place. Then I would "work the room". Thanking each one of those there personally with a handshake and a heartfelt thanks. Including the newbie TF scout that didn't do anything to really help, but at least showed up to give you support of your project. Let him know that someday he'll be doing this too! To me that kind of gift is priceless to that new scout. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

The first question I would ask is what do the new boys want? If they don't get what they want, they will quit. If they want to stay together, great, they then pick their own TG to help them. They pick their own PL/APL and take on the challenges they want. The SPL/ASPL are there to support their decision. If the PLC want's mixed patrols, what are they doing to promote it to the Webelos boys? Are they sitting around thinking they are going to mandate to the new boys a solution that's in the best interest of the existing patrols? It's going to be a hard sell under those circumstances. The new boys will quickly realize they are the bandaids for a poorly run troop. SM: "Welcome to Troop XX, what do you want to do to get to where you want to be in Boy Scouts?" If nothing else the new scouts are going to stick around long enough to see whether the SM really means what he/she says! If they are not empowered to take on any leadership and that for the next seven years they are going to have to toe the line, and there is no future that looks good to them, they will find other avenues to pursue and they probably won't be in a restrictive program of BSA. Both styles of patrols works well if allowed to. However, once hidden agendas by adults or other boys are brought to light, then someone has to pay the piper and it usually means some voting is done with one's feet. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

dkurtenbach: If you are looking for a cure-all pill to fix this problem, you're not going to find one. Instead change your focus, Healing takes time and effort on the part of boys working together, trying new things, seeing if the adults interfere, deciding whether they really do have the power to make changes, etc. To look at a huge troop and say "Where do we begin?" is overwhelming to say the least. Well, take a small step somewhere, anywhere! Do something that moves the troop, even if in a small way to where you (oops, THEY...) want to be sometime in the future. We can't see what the future will bring and the way is not visible to us at the present time. But one can still start with something. Instead of mandating what the boys should do, let them decide. They know what interests them, not the adults! Turn it into a free-for-all? Maybe yes! After all, the well structured, adult-led process you have in place now is not working! If they can't figure it out, well, then you haven't lost any ground in the process. But if they do figure it out and begin to succeed be prepared to eat a little crow. The biggest threat to the adults is boy-led success because we as adults have to admit that sometimes the boys are right! If they plan only activities that they want to go to, they'll show up. If they plan on their schedules, they'll show up. If they feel they can do anything, they'll show up. If one patrol can't make spring camporee because of spring sports, but can go the next weekend, why not a patrol outing for the older sports boys instead of the "hundredth" time to some event that they are bored with anyway! Do you really think that the boys are going to plan a patrol outing that only 2 boys can attend? Heck, as adult, you get two opportunities to be out in the woods that way~! It's scary to think that one is going to have to give up some control to make the troop a success, but only the boys know what will work for them. Give them a chance to prove it and then celebrate with them when they get their wins! I don't want to be a successful Scoutmaster, I want boys that are successful! If you were to announce to the boys as SM that you don't have all the answers and that from now on they're going to have to figure things out as to what best works for them, it doesn't mean you as a SM are a failure. Progress doesn't have any end points and success/failure can be determined only at end points. You can't lose unless the game is over! Just don't let the game end! I have always found that 10 boys can think of 10 times more fun things to do than just one SM who is basically guessing as to what might be fun for boys. If it's ain't working, doing anything different will lead down a different path. It may not work either, but there are an endless amount of paths out there to try. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

My troop is sponsored by an American Legion and there are certain "expectations" that are placed on us. 1) We march in the Memorial Day Parade in full uniform. The Girl Scouts do the same thing! 2) We are expected to sell corn at their major fundraiser (Cornfest, so we are totally working 100%) each year. Sun up to sun down for three days. It's hot messy work and we do it in full uniform to show our presence. We provide our own shelter from the hot sun and rain. The Girl Scouts do the cleanup at the bbq chicken booth. We take in hundreds if not thousands of dollars for the American Legion and never say a word about it. When it comes time to recharter, they pay their $20 and all the registrations for the troop, both boy and adult. Then they presented us last year with $600 out of the sky blue and the Commander whispered in my ear, "if you need more, let me know." They know we can't support them with money, but every time they ask for a "favor" we are johnny-on-the-spot with full uniformed scouts to help. We promote American Legion at every opportunity we get. They know we do the popcorn, the wreaths, and that we have about 100% attendance at summer camp and that running a scout troop isn't cheap. It's time for the troop to sit down with the church board and offer up their services for the congregation that doesn't require $$'s. Maybe the scouts would take on coffee fellowship on Sunday morning. Maybe they would help out at the annual church dinner (in full uniform), usher on more than Scout Sunday services, collect food for the food pantry and give the credit to the congregation, etc. so that they have a visible presence at the church to show the members there that they are a vital part of the church's mission and not just an expense on the church budget report at the annual meeting. Are you required to do this by the CO Charter? No, but what's the mission and purpose of BSA in the first place? "Help other people at all times." If the church is struggling, roll up your sleeves and do something about it besides run to the DE and complain. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

dkurtenbach: A little Devil's Advocate there, I know what reverse engineering is, but I was questioning it's validity in this situation. Instead of going backwards to look forward, why not take today, assess what you have and then go forward in a different direction that what produces less than stellar results. Don't take a shotgun approach either, and first of all get the boys onboard with the change, give them permission to experiment and let them have at it. If you have 6-8 boys that want to step up and move forward, plan their activities, work through the challenges of scheduling, etc. and stick together for their experience in scouting, why in the world would anyone want to break them up? Okay, a couple can't make it, but the other six should do just fine this time around, etc. Let them go, and instead of reverse engineering their efforts, capitalize on their successes! Let them be the pacesetters for the other patrols. Look forward not backwards. You can go back and pick up on past successes such as those suggested by Kudu in earlier scouting material and have the boys work through adapting them to the 21st Century. Stay out of the mix and let them take ownership of it with a combination of historical and contemporary ideals. Let them take on the challenge and figure it out. Why in the world would what we as adult think as good be the same as a 15 year old's. Heck, I haven't though like a 15 year old for 45 years. Who best knows the mind of a 15 year old? Yep, another 15 year old! Ad hoc patrols means that regardless of what I plan, what I want, what is good for me and my buddies, because of not enough making it we need to move in with the neighbors for the weekend. Right, like that's a big sell for the boys. Sounds like punishment to me, and I'm not 15 years old. As adults, if we didn't get 2 deep leadership we would cancel the activity rather than "move in" with another troop for the weekend where there are more adults to meet the requirements. How many boys think this way,- it's better to stay home than to put up with people who aren't our buddies. Maybe I do think like a 15 year old after all. All I do is announce that when we hit 12 boys in the troop that they need to form two patrols. My job is done. When we have closing flags, two patrols are formed. The boys did it based on their own criteria. Now at least they have a chance of success because they picked themselves to commit to the patrol and it's up to each of them to make it work. Not me, I wasn't involved in the formation process. I just sit back and cheer them on when they succeed and help pick up the pieces when they don't. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

I'm having difficulty understanding "reverse engineering"? Take a bad situation and reverse engineer it to see why it's bad? Heck, the results tell you it's bad. Why would I spend a lot of time trying to figure out why it's bad? Why not let the boys try different things to see why things shouldn't be better. One already knows what they have isn't working. Well, what's keeping it from working? Fix that and at least you'll take a step in the right direction. Boys don't want to go? Why not? What's wrong with the activity? Was the right activity picked in the first place, etc. etc. etc. I have only one or two boys out of 15 missing any major activity. They picked the activity, so they have a vested interest in making it go. Adults don't set the agenda, it's the adult's agenda and not the boys, so adults show up and the boys stay home. Don't need reverse engineering to tell me this wasn't going any where in the first place. "For the past 5 years we have had attendance problems with the patrols." Well, maybe someone should ask the question, have you been doing the same thing for the past 5 years? How many time must one hit their head against the wall before they realize it hurts? And the solution to the pain? Quit doing the same mistake over and over again. Do something else! SM: "We always go to Camporees, Summer Camp, etc. etc. etc. Attendance of our older boys always drops off because of cars, girls and sports.... " This kind of thinking is what allows ineffective SM's to sleep well at night. Ever think that maybe the attendance of the older boys might be because they are bored to death with their 10th Camporee? or 5th Summer Camp at the same camp? Troops that do this will always ad hoc their young patrols just to have enough to get through the "unpopular" activity. Next time ask the boys where they would like to go. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

People walking by a show-and-sell are not interested in making a large purchase for either the GSUSA or BSA. They want to make a small purchase to help the kids and not break the bank. GSUSA with a $3.50 purchase is easy to swallow, but a $15 "case" of unpopped popcorn is more difficult. I would like to see the gourmet popcorn available for the boys to offer at $1/$2 individual serving so people can hand over a buck or two, get a treat and if everyone stops by and drops off a small amount, there should be a nice line forming to show that it's a popular option rather than having a ton of people say, "Sorry, not right now" and keep on walking. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country... Obviously one's honor isn't worth much when said with tongue in cheek. Again, regardless of one's position in life, one's trustworthiness and honor takes a beating when one is trying to deceive others. I'm not ready to accept such deception as good role-model material. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

"Am I a good, moral, well-mannered role model for other scouts?" "I will admit that I have lied in that I am not reverent to any god,..." Nothing wrong with doing good things for other people, but if one can't honest with oneself, it must be assumed that the person can't be honest with others as well. No one said living up to the Scout Law was going to be easy, but at least trying to be honest is better than making no effort at all. One can easily justify what one does is valid, but justifying what one IS is the issue here. Anyone can do Eagle projects, service projects, lead, etc. but that doesn't mean that the person IS an Eagle, BE good, and BE a leader. When he dust settles one is better judged by who they are than by what they do. That's the moral issue that hasn't been address in the issue described here. Just because I do moral things doesn't make me moral, it just means I'm doing a good job of deceiving others and thus we're back to the first Scout Law. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

Hmmm... Troll or not let me weigh in on this one. Trustworthy - have you been open and honest with your dealings with BSA? Need I say more? No to both questions. No matter what accolades one gets bedecked with, it doesn't change what's on the inside. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

I have an agreement with my CC that she handles all the issues with adults/parents and I as SM handle all the issues with the boys. I hear about it, but it's usually handled by her first and has my back on all issues. She has complete knowledge of the boy-led, patrol-method approach and is in 100% agreement with me on it. Works really nice to keep one focused on the boys and their program. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

Gee Frank17, I wonder what that instructor would have done if the boy had a fear of heights?? The fear of water can be overcome, but it takes time if you choose a different route than the instructor in the anecdote. I wasn't all that impressed with water as a kid, but after a few years I went on to be Life-Saving certified. To this day I am not fond of water, I prefer not to go swimming for fun, but if I have to, I can. My one "have to" pilgrimage is down to the waterfront at summer camp to pass the swim test. Water skiing, kayaking, canoeing, boating, sailing, etc. I all do, but I always wear a life-jacket so psychologically I don't have to think about it. Start the boy with a life-jacket and get him used to at least getting close to the water. Every free-climber started out with a belay line. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

For show-and-sell there should be small packages that can be sold individually so that passer-byes can make a $1-2 purchase of the bag just to please the boys and/or buy and sample to see if they would be interested in purchasing a larger bag for a higher cost. Stosh

One could always shovel the park and see what's beneath the 2' of snow. Be sure to have the boys check each shovelful for cigarette butts. One wouldn't want the boys to get an award they didn't earn..... Seriously, there has to be some parking lot that's been plowed and has a ton of litter or maybe a parking ramp downtown. Business areas have a lot of sidewalks that need daily trash pickup. The requirement says neighborhood, that means anywhere outside and there are a ton of sheltered areas that need cleaning up! And what better PR for your pack than to see a bunch of CS's out cleaning up around a downtown business areas where there's a lot of pedestrian traffic, especially in somewhat inclement weather. As far as being cold, remember, those boys can stay out in bad weather a lot longer than the leaders! When you're all done, stop by a restaurant and treat the boys to a hot chocolate. Chances are if you do that, they're going to want to do that activity more than once regardless of the weather. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

Thanks for the update emb021, I tossed my universal pin mega years ago. I still wear the 1" (Youth ONLY!) pin on my campaign hat because it is the historically correct pin for the campaign hat, if my information is correct. Most people don't even know about the 1" pin let alone it being youth only because FC is reserved for youth only. If I get flack on it, I'll just switch it out with the SM pin which is a smaller, green/silver version of the FC pin anyway (ASM was smaller, green/gold version of the FC pin). All historical pins were the FC emblem until later years reduced it to the TF emblem for adults, leaving the full FC for youth. Stosh

I used to have one of those pewter pins and don't remember them being Venturing specific. I'm thinking it's the "adult" pin for he hat. The youth pin is the full FC emblem about 1" tall. The stupid clips kept falling off the pewter pin and after poking in my head a few times, it was history. I know wear the SM pin with clasp instead. Stosh

ProudEagle: Not everyone is willing to push the envelop. I didn't go to Philmont as a youth, but had the opportunity at age 50. I had the time to prepare and had many miles of hiking under my belt. The troop I went with took the most difficult trek of them all! All 5 major peaks of Philmont! It was a personal challenge for me and maybe I have become a wee bit foolish in my advanced years. I survived, it was beyond my abilities, I wish I had been 18 and full of spit and vinegar, but I don't regret having stepped up to the plate. I cannot expect anyone around me to do it unless I'm willing to put it on the line myself. Would I do it again? Heck NO! But my boys are planning to go in 2013.... Somewhere in the back of my mind there's a little voice asking over and over again, can a 63 year old man make another trek? Do I have yet another trip to the BWCA in my life? Every time I go out to the garage and see the canoes and kayak hanging there, the temptation looms larger than life. What if I die of a heart attack on some trail miles from any help in the mountains of New Mexico or on a portage between a couple of unnamed lakes in N. Minnesota? Is it better to die of pneumonia in a nursing home safe in my hometown? Hopefully I will become even more foolish as I age. I'm thinking it sounds like Philmont and/or BWCA might be a good idea.... I'll just make sure we have 3-deep leadership. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

Engineer61, good point! I think that given sufficient opportunity to succeed/fail, gain experience, etc. is equal for all people scouting or not. However, I do think that given a proper program the time-line is moved earlier in a boys left through scouting. If they can start the process at age 11 instead of 18, there might be a few more teachable moments for the boy. An 11 year-old that screws something up in scouting has an opportunity to learn and make adjustments under the guidance of a concerned adult than the 18 year-old who's out on his own doing the best he can. Maybe by the time they both reach the age of 30 it will be a moot point, but I'm thinking learning early may make the 20 something years a wee bit more tolerable in the long run. A lot of things need to be decided during those early adulthood years, marriage, career, etc. that 2-4 years of experience couldn't be assisted better with 10-12 years experience in life's lessons. I'm thinking that the parent that does a good job preparing their 18 year old will produce a great kid, but the SM that does a good job of preparing 50-100 kids might be able to accomplish just as much for each one of them as well. Not all parents will be successful, nor will all SM's. I'm just thinking that the odds of getting our kids ready can be enhanced quite a bit with the scouting program. If I didn't really believe that, I wouldn't have as many years in scouting as I do. Scoutfish: To address your point, and I have no evidence to support my position, but I would think that an adult-led scout may indeed tend to be more often an adult-led SM simply because of the context in which he was a scout. On the other hand, if that same scout had a bad experience in an adult-led program, he may want to try being a boy-led SM so that others won't have to experience what he had to deal with as a youth. Could go either way, just depends on the individual. I'm a bit of the second option in that my scouting experience was not as beneficial has hopefully I'm providing for youth today. Your mileage may vary, Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

One has to be careful of one's measuring metrics. To try and sum things up with statistics is sometimes an exercise in futility. Is an Eagle scout with 50 MB's better than one with 21? Maybe, maybe not. As a former minister, I can also use the example, is the billionaire church member who donates $100,000 a better Christian than a single mom with 3 kids that donates $100? Is the Silver Beaver SM who did FOS for the council better than a SM who hasn't yet received the District Award of Merit because he has spent the last 30 years devoting all his time to working with his troop and has run a successful troop for hundreds of boys over the years? Metrics is a management tool to define whether a task has been successful or not. However, when measuring leadership of people, statistics generally go out the window. The saavy SM who has produced 50 Eagles in his Eagle mill may be quite successful at what he does, but the SM who has inspired 15 Eagles to go on to be civic minded, honorable husbands and fathers, and maybe a somewhat successful entrepreneur to boot, might be held accountable to a whole different metric. As a SM, I have no way of knowing whether or not I have inspired anyone to be a better person, strong leader, or successful parent because of what I have done in their lives. Engineer61: I'm assuming that your nom-de-guerre is reflective of your occupation and respect where you are coming from. I work with engineers in my every-day life. However, I can't accept your conclusion that the difference between patrol-method, boy-led vs. troop-method, adult-led is summed up in safety. I seem to be swayed by the notion that the difference lies in terms of leadership. If, when all is said and done, and the dust settles: do I have a young man that can lead others vs. a young man that has enjoyed the program provided? I'll take the young man that can lead others any day! And I have no way of measuring how that can be determined. I also would find it difficult to accept the idea that a boy-led, patrol method troop is not as safe for the boys as an adult-led troop. I have an extremely boy-led program and our #1 rule for any activity is Safety First, something all my boys take very seriously! Your mileage may vary, Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

Excellent observation Scoutfish, and I have but only a couple of anecdotes to operate from. I had a boy that was basically a bully, his dad was the SM. All the makings of a poorly run troop. His dad was frustrated and asked me to take over. The boy was furious when his support base for being a bully was taken away. When all was said and done, the boy did a 180 and is now my ASM, his dad was the CC and is now a MC. Well, the training and instruction does not end when the boy gets his Eagle and ages out! Now the training begins to show him how to be as successful with other boys as he was with me. He no longer can bunk with his best buddy in the troop! He no longer can lead any of the activities he once did in the troop/patrol. He no longer can participate in the fun stuff the boys are doing. He was really bummed out at first. However, after some long conversations he began to realize that what I enjoyed in scouting is far different than what he had been enjoying as a scout. He has once again done a major overhaul in his life. As an advocate of boy-led, he has seen what it has done for him and is now a #1 champion of making it happen for someone else. His emphasis on patrol-method was seen by the camp director of the summer camp we attended the past few years and has offered him a spot on the staff. The camp also adjusted a lot of their program to emphasize the patrol-method in their camp program because of some of the conversations he had with them both as a youth and as a new adult. They sent him an application to be on their camp staff next summer and he has accepted. Our OA in our District is in shambles and as a "youth" in the OA program, he is recruiting and reorganizing the OA program on his own. It's part of his Wood Badge ticket! Yes, he was an 18 year old WB participant and with a lot of reservations the council "allowed" him a spot in the training. He has told me these three years where he's an adult/youth (18-21) he has the opportunity to make the transition into being a better boy-led SM some day. I don't know if he's going to get the opportunity with all on his plate to accomplish everything he wants to, but he's dead-set on giving it his best effort. He's planning on enlisting in the USAF next fall when he's out of high school and becoming a fighter pilot. I'm thinking he's going to do just fine! Other boys haven't faired as well. The giving up the scouting youth experience didn't take hold of an adult vision of scouting and eventually dropped out of the scouter ranks. To a certain extent, boys that Eagle early also fall victim to this process. Instead of being able to keep a foot on both camps, be a boy leader and take on adult responsibilities, they simply are overwhelmed and drop out, siting too busy at school kinds of things. I have seen it in other boys from other troops where they have done well. My Jambo contingent SPL was an Eagle scout, hung out with the adults as much as he did with the boys helping them be successful, so it can be done in all troops, not just the one's I've been associated with. It depends a lot on the boys themselves. Unlike the Webelos to Boy Scouting transition, the BSA does very little with the boy to adult transition. The camp where we go to summer camp did a nice job of helping out with my one boy. He is a year ahead in school and turned 18 half way through his junior year, January of 2010. He completed his Eagle the day before his 18th birthday. He then took the full SM training at summer camp and was kept busy while his buddies were off doing their MB's etc. That helped a lot. Then at the end of the summer he took WB. He's got his whole senior year now to work as my ASM and work in his troop. I'm hoping he can finish his ticket before going off to the Air Force Academy next fall. He is an example of having the right attitude, and being in the right place at the right time. Not all boys -> adults have this opportunity. However, I think BSA could do a lot more, maybe through the National Eagle Scout Association to develop a workable program for these young men. One hears a lot about Eagle Scout SM's but I often wonder how difficult it may have been for them to transition. Most of them dropped their association in scouting until they had kids of their own and then came up through the ranks like everyone else. I don't know, I don't think BSA has done much research on this process, but maybe they should. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

I tend to agree with Nike on this point. When the activity is too dangerous it should not be a part of the program. Yet, what appears to be dangerous may not be dangerous at all. I have done white-water canoeing/kayaking for many years and have had hundreds of hours on many different rivers in our part of the country. When I pick a river to suggest to the boys, it is one that I can, with my limitations, insure a reasonable amount of risk with a very low probability of disaster connected with it. Yes, the boys could be killed in a car accident going to or from the white-water activity. There is a certain amount of risk in life itself. However, I take all my boys every year on a white-water trip and even those that have had no experience are given the opportunity to go. Are parents concerned? Yes, they are! They will ask, "what if they tip over in the fast water?!" My standard answer is, "They stand up and get their knees out of the water. What sounds terribly dangerous and adventurous is not at all. TF boys always get paired up with an experienced boy and are always in the front of the canoe, (mostly for ballast so the older boy keeps the front of his canoe down!). No one tries kayaks until they have had a trip or two down the river and understand the dynamics of white-water. Are the newbies terrified? Yep! Do they want to go again? Yep! Do the older boys want a more challenging river next time? Yep! Do I take steps to insure that they are trained, experienced and safe before I make the next step? Yep! I had one instance where when we pulled out of the river near the campsite which was a few hundred yards away. I told the boys to haul the canoes up on their shoulders and hike them back to camp. They were really ticked off I didn't go get the trailer. But they did it and were fuming for the rest of the weekend. 2 months later we went to the BWCA and after the longest portage of the trip, 3.2 miles, I asked the boys again if they were still mad at me for making them carry their canoes back to camp 2 months earlier. They all laughed! Push the envelop whenever the parents allow it. Over the years, even they begin to trust in your judgment when they eventually see that what you are doing is in the best interest of their boys. I even have some parent talking to the other parents who have reservations about a scout activity we have planned and even they emphasize that what appears to be very dangerous isn't a problem because the SM is basically a safety freak in the first place. So do I have newbie scouts terrified of some of the activities we plan? Yep! Do they want to go again? Yep! Your mileage may vary, Stosh