Stosh

Didn't wait.... Update CC and I had coffee A few of the boys complained to their parents that they weren't having any fun in scouts because they had to plan trips, menus, calendars, actually do leadership. They were threatening to quit. Parents complained to CC: who held a meeting 2 weeks ago. Called in DE (less than one year on the job, just graduated from college) and he brought the UC (just trained last month) and the CC caved, the committee caved, the DE caved and the UC caved. I'm no longer the SM. It took the CC two weeks to get around to telling me even though she was told not to by the DE. With the DE going to such great lengths to keep it a secret, I know for a fact that most of the boys in the troop are unaware of the decision. If the boys won't lead, eventually the adults will take over..... and so they did. Only one ASM was in attendance, he took over, he has 3 boys in the troop. Well played I must say. Stosh

The requirements have changed. Just look at FC of the early 1900's most boys would find it difficult if not impossible to attain. Yet with the check the box requirements of today, all one has to do is go through the motions and not really have to think too much about it. Following directions is not the same as leading. Just my opinion. Stosh

My CC and I have had the same goal for the boys. Not a problem. Without being privy to the conversation in the meeting other than what the DE said briefly over the phone, I don't know if the CC has changed positions or not. I knew the parents and committee met, I received no feedback from the CC so I just assumed it was a general informational meeting. The DE got me thinking that may not be the case. A UC was also present with the DE. I don't know if the gentleman is our UC or not. He's new to the district, met him at UC training a month ago. DE has been around for a year, hired out of college. COR is name only person. IH is 200% behind what I'm doing with the boys. Should be interesting next few weeks. I'll know more next Tuesday. Stosh

Beavah, We agree pretty much on the outcome, just the process to get there. I find that the younger boys in mixed patrols just sit back and wait to develop while the older boys exercise leadership. Then somehow after sitting and watching, somehow they are able to grab the reins and carry on with no prior experience once the older boys move on. Observation is a good way to learn, but hands-on (EDGE) requires more than just the E and D parts, and G will come when you're older. I just think it's all one process and the boys need to start with small projects right from the git-go. If the new boys want to have an older PL for a while, so be it. If they want to go it alone, so be it. That decision is probably going to be their first lesson in leadership scouting. Stosh

"So you got no advance notice of this problem, or the meeting, from your Committee Chair at all?" The CC said she was going to have a parent meeting instead of a committee meeting this month. "The Committee Chair has still not communicated to you that there was a problem, a meeting, or anything related to the issue?" Only that there was going to be a meeting, nothing before or after. "The only time you heard about this was when the DE called you last night?" Yep "The DE would not talk to you on the phone about the particulars of the meeting?" Nope, just wanted me to know in case someone might say something at roundtable about it. No one did. "Did the DE request that you not talk to anyone before your meeting with him?" No he did not. "Curiouser, and curiouser." Yep Stosh (This message has been edited by jblake47)

I, too, am curious as to what triggered this situation. The meeting with DE, UC, Committee and parents was held while I was working with the boys so I was not privy to any of the discussion. I set up an appointment for next Tuesday with the DE to find out more. I'm not going to worry about it until then. The "trick" to empowering boys is to ask questions. 3 years ago our boys had a bad experience at our council's summer camp. The camp was troop method and the boys wanted to do patrol method. During the after activity review the boys expressed a lot of frustration and disappointment. I simply asked where they would want to go if not there. They had no idea they could pick and choose. One boy said he could do a Google search on the internet and see what came up. He came back with a report on a camp that sounded perfect. I then asked him what we should do next. He came with the registration information, MB, etc. the next meeting and presented to the boys. They seemed to think it might work. From that point on, I just stayed out of the way and occasionally asked how things were going with it. Always got a positive response so I stayed out of the way. The boys asked me to drive and I said, no problem. We went and the boys had a fantastic time. It really is a nice camp. They voted to come back even before the week was out. They asked if it was possible to register again right away for next year. I said I didn't know, but the office might. The boy came back and said yes and that our deposit/refund for this year could be used for next year. I said sounds good and he went back and signed us up. Since that time, no one has ever suggested there be any need for adults to be involved in the process except for 2 to show up for camp and drive the boys to the camp. Popcorn sales two years ago kicked off at the August Roundtable. I asked the boys if they wanted to make some money for camp and told them about the kick off meeting. Two boys volunteered to check it out and ended up at the roundtable, collected up information and ran the program for the year. Again, I stayed out of the way. This year a different boy wanted to do it so he did. I stayed out of the process. I really didn't think the this year boy could do it, but he did a great job at my surprise. Whenever an activity comes up I collect the information at roundtable. I ask if there are any boys wanting to check it out and if no one shows interest then I toss it in the garbage. Heck, why should I spin my wheels setting up a program that no one is interested in. On two separate occasions, the boys must have had second thoughts about it and dragged the paper out of the garbage and did it anyway. Again, I stayed out of the way. I have asked for periodic reports on the progress of their projects just to see how well they are doing. That's as far as I go with my involvement. Occasionally I will have an activity that I generate. I announce to the boys that I'm going to be going whitewater kayaking on such-and-such weekend and they are invited to go along if they wish. I plan only for myself, the rest of the boys have to figure out how they are going to get themselves there and have equipment once they arrive. I let the boys know how many available seats I have in my vehicle so they can plan around that. If they don't want to go, I have a nice quiet weekend of kayaking. There have been occasions where the boys generated out of thin air activities that they want to do, i.e. backpacking trip or canoe trip. The only requirement they must meet is 1-2 registered SM/ASM and a parent chaperon if only 1 registered leader. I heard it was a nice trip. I was busy that weekend. There is one technique I use to instigate activity by the boys and that is to reiterate their own feelings. I'll say something like, "I'm bored, we don't get out often enough." Or, "That sounds interesting, I'll probably go to that." If they show some interest I may follow it up with letting the boys know how many open seats I have in my vehicle. It usually sparks something that may or may not go anywhere, but at least they have had the opportunity to consider it. FC scouts should know how to put together a trip whether it be a weekend camporee, a canoe float or summer camp. There is no need for adult involvement. Fundraisers? They don't have to do them unless they want to cut the cost of camp or get it paid for by others. It makes no never mind to me. If the boys don't want to go and I do, well I can always go volunteer a week at camp (I've done that before). They'll give me a place to sleep and something to eat and doing some projects is usually a lot of fun, i.e. summer camp for adults I'm there to help the boys, but my ASM's and I never do it for them. That includes even those dynamics that traditionally have been reserved for the adults. If the adults on the committee want the boys to do popcorn and they want to set it up and force the boys out there so they don't get soaked for the whole bill, that's fine. So far, the boys have always beat the parents to the punch and have done it themselves. They know that once the adults get a foot in the door, it's really hard to get it back out. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

If new ideas don't work, then why after 100 years has GM fallen apart and Toyota keeps on getting better? If the newbies on the block (Toyota) had been thrown in with the older boys (GM) then both groups would be on the ropes today. Back in the early 1900's Henry Ford perfected the assembly line approach to manufacturing. He was a newbie with nothing to go on except trying to improve what would be better in the long run. On the other hand, Alfred P. Sloan, Jr., President of GM (1923-37), Chief Executive, 1937-46; Chairman of the Board (1937-56) is quoted as saying: "We are not in the business of making cars, we are in the business of making money." Thus Ford and GM went their separate ways. GM fell apart and Ford is still hanging in there. If one translates this into Scouting, are we in the business of making Leaders (Ford) or are we just out there for the Eagles (GM). Toyota comes onto the scene 1950's and blows them both out of the water doing both at the same time. Everyone's sending their operations over seas and Toyota is building successful plants in the US! What does Toyota know that the rest of us are sitting around scratching our heads about? What did BP back in the early 1900's know that Ford knew? BP nor Ford had older, more experienced boys to work with. They didn't have a track record. They didn't have patterns that the boys just kept learning over and over again. No, they were innovators and constantly were seeking ways of improving the system rather than accepting the status quo. Rote learning of skills and passing all the requirement skills will get one an Eagle, but it doesn't mean they learned leadership along the way. Struggling, problem solving, goal setting, stumbling along the way are all lessons in leadership we have come to the conclusion we don't need to teach our boys. As long as they behave and learn the requirements, they are successful. They get a star on the chart (Eagle). But true leadership is developed on the journey, not achieved at the destination. 6 weeks ago a "business meeting" was added to our routine at our meetings. The scribe made a report of last week's discussions (minutes), the treasurer made a financial report, our various leaders made reports on all their projects they were working on, etc. Then the discussion was opened up to old and new business discussions. The first meeting it took the whole meeting time. Last Monday, after one of the boys told his buddies they were wasting time, managed to get their meeting down to half the original time. They decided they need to get it down to 10 minutes with no screwing around so they can get on to more important things like training and games. THEY came to that conclusion on their own, not some adult. When the boys themselves are setting goals, it's a lot different than some adult telling them what they have to do. Now those older boys know something that this year's new Webelos boys know that isn't written in some handbook for them to check off for advancement. If they join in with the older boys, when will they get their chance to learn that lesson? It varies from boy to boy, but some of my boys (not necessarily the older boys) think for themselves, problem solve, set goals, adapt, and do what it takes to make it happen regardless of the obstacles along the way. With this much experience learned from the ground up by each boy, I'm very interested in what their Eagle projects are going to look like. How does the (FC) popcorn chair, or the (Star) summer camp organizer top that with a challenging Eagle project? My boys aren't interested in building someone else loom, they want to make one of their own. Your mileage may vary Stosh

"If I were to tell you, a self-directed fellow, that we needed a factory in India, congrats, you're lead, hop to it, I reckon you'd be lost. It'd take yeh a while to get goin', yeh would wish for more support, yeh would probably quit after a failed start or two. But if I said "Welcome to the team", we're building a factory in India, Joe your team leader has had five years of experience with us, the other guys have been with us for a few years and will show you the ropes, and you'll be a big part of our success as you come up to speed, then I reckon you'd be more inclined to stay around. You'd have a few good friends who joined with yeh, but you'd have support and experience as well. You'd take on more responsibility as you learned, and eventually down the road yeh could see yourself becoming a great team leader like Joe. And all along da way, you'd be deeply proud of your team." - Beavah While joining an existing situation is far different than creating one of your own, it does remind me of a story I read about Kiichiro Toyoda (1894-1952), founder of Toyota Motor Corporation and son of Toyoda Automatic Loom Works. It would seem that someone had once stole the design plans for a loom from the Toyoda loom works. In other words they already had a "team/idea/solution" in place. Here's what Mr. Toyoda had to say in response: "Certainly the thieves may be able to follow the design plans and produce a loom. But we are modifying and improving our looms every day. So by the time the thieves have produced a loom from the plans they stole, we will have already advanced well beyond that point. And because they do not have the expertise gained from the failures it took to produce the original, they will waste a great deal more time than us as they move to improve their loom. We need not be concerned about what happened. We need only continue as always, making our improvements." If every group of boys coming into a program only add to an already established program, 1) they are expected to start out with a high level of leadership in order to contribute, or 2) they don't learn because others already are doing it well. On the other hand, they all start out together and learn from the ground up what leadership is all about, avoiding the mistakes of others (older patrols) they will gain ground quickly on their own efforts. No student starts school in the 7th Grade. They all must start with kindergarten and work through the process. Putting kindergarten children in 7th grade will not produce educated students, only frustrate them and cause them to never be as good. But if this is the practice, then by the time those kindergarten students are in the 7th grade, they will have to lead because those older 7th graders will now be in college. Those younger boys will never catch up. While I may not be building a company in India, I still think it's far more productive to start 5 year olds in kindergarten and work from there. Yes, they will need some guidance and training, but by the time they reach 7th grade, they will have had more opportunities than if they had started with students far more advanced than them. Those kindergarten students aren't lazy or irresponsible, but more along the lines of overwhelmed and frustrated. Kindergarten kids have far stronger bonds with their classmates by the time they graduate high school than any other older students who may have interacted with them over the years. There is strong evidence that this process works, why mess with it? Your mileage may vary, Stosh

I had an interesting phone call from my DE last night just before Roundtable. It would seem that the parents of the troop met with the DE, the UC and Committee and aired complaints that their boys were expected to do too much leadership in the troop. They did not think that the boys should be responsible for everything. One boy volunteered to do the popcorn sales this past year and the troop raised sold more popcorn than at any time in the past. For the past three years a boy has taken on Summer Camp, selected the camp, signed up MB's, collected fees, got equipment ordered and the boys unanimously vote every year to return to that camp. We have had about 90% turn out for camp each of those three years. Right now each boy has taken on a POR and we've been training heavily on how to do it. We have been organizing such that each week we have flags, inspections, a business meeting, training and game closing with flags. This is all done by the boys. Our winter camp with the Webelos has been entirely set up by the boys, and last night a reminder went out to the boys to be sure to have their money at the meeting Monday so that the Grubmaster can purchase food on Thursday and leave on Friday. The Treasurer has been collecting weekly dues and keeping records on it and the boys are planning a swimming outing where the new Webelos boys can learn how to take the BSA swim test and have pizza afterward. Currently up-to-date dues members will not have to pay for the pizza or swimming. And yet the parents are complaining that too much is expected of the boys. Maybe boy-led, patrol-method is not an appropriate approach to the BSA program. Your thoughts? Stosh

As one who is trained in Lean Manufacturing, I can assure you that work-arounds do not solve the problems. Solve the problem and you don't need bandaids and binder twine/gum to get by. As long as young boys go out and sell regardless of the obstacles they face, i.e. high prices, wrong packaging, etc. there will never be enough discomfort at the National level to solve the problem. A good National marketing strategy would work wonders for popcorn sales and if the boys don't have to work-around everything, they might be able to sell twice as much popcorn and build a larger customer base. Compare the customer base of the GSUSA cookie customers and compare it to the customer base of the BSA. BIG difference. I have been buying GSUSA cookies for 40 years and I go looking for girls selling every year! I can't say that for the BSA process. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

My opening ceremony for each meeting opens with a brief devotion, kept short and generic. My closing ceremony for each meeting closes with a brief but generic prayer. This is what a CA is for. If a Buddist is my CA, I expect him to do the same thing as a Christian, Muslim or Jewish boy would do. Keep it brief, generic but related to their faith. The brief prayer at the end can be either silent or spoken. Is it restricted only to the CA? Nope. My CA didn't show last night and one of the boys stepped up from the ranks and offered a closing prayer. Over the top? Maybe, but no one has questioned the practice. If they do, it will be a good opportunity for my boys to learn about someone else's faith. I have had a couple of boys begin to be more active in their religious practice once they see it's okay for their buddies to be involved with theirs. Our CO is the American Legion, not a religious organization. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

One can use RRO without being fanatical about it, but if one's meeting is to be run smoothly and quickly it's a great tool. If it's a discussion free-for-all with everyone talking at the same time, any meeting can take on gargantuan proportions. Opening - no discussion Minutes of last week's discussion - no discussion Treasurer's report - no discussion Patrol reports - no discussion Activity reports - no discussion Any other reports outstanding - no discussion Old Business Reopen any discussions that weren't settled last meeting. Scribe puts back on the floor for further discussion. Speak if you have the floor, don't interrupt otherwise. Make decisions by vote, consensus or whatever you need to do to finalize the issue. New Business Open up any new ideas, activities, etc. that might be of interest Speak if you have the floor, don't interrupt otherwise. Make decisions by vote, consensus or whatever you need to do to finalize the issue or table for next meeting Adjourn A weekly patrol meeting should take about 10 minutes, maybe a PLC meeting 30-45 minutes. Free-for-all discussion might be what the boys want, but wasting everyone's time isn't really courteous and counter productive to accomplishing anything in a reasonable amount of time. RRO are taught in my training sessions for leaders and to a certain extent the boys really like getting the business done and on to the fun and games as soon as possible. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

At the camp we attend last summer, my recent new ASM took their IOLS training. While the boys were off to MB, he was off to IOLS, every day all day long. He said it was really good and taught by a commissioner who knew what he was doing. That same ASM went on to WB in the fall and is now working his ticket. Stosh

It kinda makes one wonder if Cub Scout and the Blue Gold Banquet are more a signal of something ending rather than something one has done to be prepared for something bigger and better. More and more it is becoming obvious that Webelos II Blue Gold is the END of the scouting experience. Instead of being a stepping stone to something even more exciting, it marks the end of a program and Boy Scouts is just another program to consider, just like joining the YMCA or Boy/Girls clubs. For many years a lot of good people have been working on the Webelos to Scouts transition and for many years it has gotten worse. One year I stood at the end of the bridge and watched 7 boys "cross-over" to our troop and then never see them again. Obviously the US Government in Alaska isn't the only ones who have a bridge to nowhere. Putting neckers on boys and handing them books only to collect them back up afterward speaks volumes as to your expectations for the process. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

Congratulations, you've just discovered one of the best kept secrets of the BSA program. Yes, the boys are amazing! Just give them the chance and they can do great things with very little direction from others. Kinda like street gangs, they are highly organized and no adult involvement. At least with scouts, they have a legacy of honor that is supported by 100 years of commitment to a high standard to follow. Give them a chance and stand back and be prepared to be amazed over and over again. Stosh

I started with 5 boys and CC with no committee. Boy-led, patrol-method was and is the goal. I have had as many as 24 boys and now I have 14. Within a couple of months, I should be at 18. Boy-led, patrol-method was and is the goal. Every time I interact with the boys I ask myself only one question, "What is keeping the troop from becoming boy-led, patrol-method?" I solve that problem and I'm one step closer to boy-led, patrol-method goal. The committee is onboard now and has CC and 5 members. They are 100% in line with boy-led, patrol-method. Are we anywhere near our goal of boy-led, patrol-method? Nope, but we're closer than most other troops in our area. So, tomorrow at our weekly meeting, what is on our agenda? Influx of new scouts, new patrols might be on the horizon, the boys are going to have to figure this out on their own. Did I mention the biggest reason for our turn around is the goal of boy-led, patrol-method? Your mileage may vary, Stosh

Gee, if the boys don't learn Roberts Rules of Order in scouts where are they to learn it? Any community meetings are run by Roberts. Church councils are run by Roberts. The association of reenactors I meet with are run by Roberts. School boards are run by Roberts. One would think that Roberts is a vital part of leadership in the community and every citizen should have a basic working knowledge of them. Too bad we don't teach the boys this type of leadership skill which is so easy to do. Naw, it's too hard to train the boys up in basic citizenship. Leave it to just an overview in the MB's and let the boys figure it out later on in life when and if they ever have to use it. I'm thinking most people don't teach Roberts because they themselves don't know it. If one wishes a truly boy-led program, I can't imagine this skill not being taught. Of course if adults wish to run the show from the back seat, the boys knowing Roberts would not be a good idea. That's why we have Roberts in the first place to keep individuals from taking control of small group discussions. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

I posted this story earlier under homesickness, sorry for the re-post, but some may have missed it. NSP boys went down to bed Friday night, first night in tent for many of the new boys. As adults we were listening to the boys settle in and we heard one of the boys crying. My ASM's know that they are to get me up if there's a problem, but the process we use usually works best. All the adults first lay quiet until it gets really serious. Too often adult intervention makes the situation worse. So we waited. Because we didn't do anything, the crying boy's buddy tried to quiet him down as best he could. Finally the boy got quieter and his buddy rolled over only to be interrupted with a request from the homesick boy for some kleenex. The buddy didn't have any and told him to go to sleep. About five minutes later the boy was crying again and his buddy asked him now what was he problem. He said he couldn't get to sleep because he was "covered with snot!" Stosh

Hardly a day goes by that I don't use something I learned in Scouts. Every time I open a box shipped to me, my Toten Chip reminds me how to open and close my pocket knife properly. Same knife skills are appropriate in any kitchen along with food prep and safe food handling skills. Knots? I do enough canoeing, kayaking and camping that those skills are always useful and usable to make life easier. Organizational skills and meeting operations are used in my other hobbies along with at work, leadership skills are a definite. I live across the street from a school and the kids constantly are dumping garbage in my yard. Yep, I clean it up all the time. I've been practicing LNT well before it became in vogue. I have two cats so there's plenty to vacuum up all the time. Instead of dumping the vacuum into the garbage, it goes into my driveway for the birds to find and use as nesting material. (Neighbors don't like it, but it's my driveway!) I mulch and plant landscaping that encourages birds and other animals to find homes nearby. I have a huge wild flower bed out by the garage which I don't have to mow! I can identify at least 10 different varieties of sparrow at my bird feeder. So, how much influence has scouting had in my life? Most of the patterns I follow in my life have a root or two from things I learned in scouting. I teach all the traditional skills to my boys so that they have the advantages in life that I have. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

Thanks for the clarification, Twocubdad. As long as the boy is empowered to make choices for himself, it's a good thing! Stosh

In the realm of developing leadership, I push for DC's in my troop all the time. The offer is always on the table with any boy. Right now I have a TF, going to be 2C next COH, who has been a DC (trained) since last September. His DL has commented more than once how much he appreciates the Scout and how he has been a great asset to the den. Okay, I probably broke a half dozen traditions/rules by putting a TF scout into a DL position (which he agreed to a full 12 months of DL to make sure he gets his National DC Award). Was he ready? Nope, but he got his chance when he asked. Things worked out. Next time it could be a total disaster, but that's the risk one takes with a boy-led program. The boy is going to have trouble making FC by the end of his first year. So what! His choice. The boy hasn't missed a den meeting or pack meeting since he started and has about 90-95% attendance in the troop. He has attended every outing offered and has taken on extra leadership projects for his patrol. At this point, even though he's behind a bit, I have no problem seeing him Eagle before he's done. He has two older brothers in the troop, one's an Eagle the other is Life. Out of the three he has the strongest leadership aptitude. I'm thinking its going to take a pry bar to get him out of the DC position. Once he gets the National Award and other see it, there's going to be a major flux of DC's for our three feeder packs. My suggestion for any DL is find a troop that makes more opportunities than they do rules and get yourself a scout or two and smooth out the rough edges. You'll be glad you did. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

Tough winkies isn't always the best response to concerned parents either. If a bunch of my buddies and I decided to join a club of some sort and the organization was such that I couldn't be with them, I'm pretty much wasting my time with that program. I joined to hang with my buddies, not have someone tell me I can't. Now a Webelos cross-over may not have the self-confidence to take on domineering adults, older boy SPL, and "the system" and question why he can't be with his buddies, but mommy did it for him. Now, let's make fun of the messenger and then we won't have to actually listen to what she's trying to say. I'm afraid that even though I have a few helicopter parents around, this one doesn't really sound all that far off. Heck, most of my parents are hovering around trying to keep the boys in my troop so that they learn leadership and have fun. Most the boys that want out is because it's too much "work" to run the patrols for themselves and want the mommy/daddy adult leaders to do it for them. Well, it sounds like maybe your boy voted with his feet. Let's hope he wasn't a very strong leader in his group or his buddies may come to the same conclusion. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

I guess, like bylaws, I haven't run into a whole lot of problems with my staff and committee. The committee doesn't vote on anything, by operate by consensus, same for my program staff. We chat, work together, do what it takes to make it happen for the boys. I might get bitten some day with such a cavalier approach to things, but if teamwork isn't working, someone's got a beef and there's no one there watching my back, then I'm pretty much wasting my time by sticking around. Scouting is not something I have to do. My life would be a lot less hectic without it for sure. But, I have skills and desires to provide for the boys and those around me recognize this and work with me in providing for the boys. If they don't think I'm doing the job or they think someone else is going to do a better job, I'd be happy to step aside and give them a chance. So far no one has come forward with any such proposal, so I'll stay focused on the boys. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

And one must remember that nothing stays the same, we now have 14 boys and two patrols. We anticipate taking on maybe 4 new Webelos and that means we will be back up to three. My boys constantly recruit and our numbers change dramatically when boys come and go. Not everyone is interested in a boy-led program. When I started I had 5 boys, I have had as many as 26 with 4 patrols, and now we're at 14 anticipating 4 Webelos. So as far as context of my post are concerned, I can speak for troops of 5 and 25. My former troop was 40+ adult-led and I can give insight into how that operated as well. I get a lot of boys that come check out the program. I have a lot transfer out because they don't want boy-led and I have a lot transfer in because they don't want adult-led. I have one boy contemplating joining from another troop, that would put us at 19, and one of my boys is actively recruiting his buddy and that may put us at 20. I'll just put a number after my name on each post so that everyone can keep up! Your mileage may vary, Stosh (14)

Venividi: My boys live and die by their choices. 6-8 is the only "rule". Everything else is whatever they want. I don't get involved in any of the deliberations, decisions, etc. connected to patrol operations. I only support what the boys decide. Competitions? My boys don't seem to be much into the competition thing, but simply strive to do better than last time. They cheer and applaud for the other guys just like they would if they won it themselves. I also find the younger boys groups tend to be more focused on improving than the older boys. It's not always an uneven match then. I can't even say the boys always pick by age/grade levels either. They generally pick according to their friends. Some brother pairs want to be together, others don't. I'm not always privy to their rationale. Boys can "recruit" any new boys into their patrol or the new boys can hang together and form a patrol of their own. If one boy becomes unhappy with one patrol, if there's enough room in another he's free to jump ship. I don't seem a whole lot of difference between how the boys pick patrols than they did when it was time to pick a troop in the first place. They hang together in a group and that may or may not last, but it's the individual boy's decision, no one else's. We don't have a PLC, normally we run 2-3 patrols, not enough to warrant a PLC. This again is a boy's decision. Unlike other structures, including the BSA recommended one, no one person "runs" the troop. We are a confederation of patrols with the PL's the highest ranking officers in the troop. I find that the boys that take on the POR's generally hang together because they are older and need the advancement, but maybe then they form up their patrol (Troop Officer Corps) and hang out together, camp, mess, etc. together. They don't have to, but it's okay to consider it. I do notice that the longer the boys stay together and bond, the less likely they are to move around in the different patrols. 7 older boys looking to take on a new patrol member might spend some time looking over the potential other scouts and pick one that they think might be okay to have with them to invite. Another older boy may be asked by the NSP to be their PL or their TG and so he might jump ship even if just temporarily to help out the new guys, but after a while go back to his original patrol because that's where his friends really are. This is the way I have observed the boys doing it. Your mileage may vary, Stosh