Stosh

The appropriate uniform inspection sheet defines what the official uniform is. The red vest, like the jac-shirts, are not part of the uniform any more than any other clothing worn over the uniform is official. I have my boys take off all non-uniform clothing when doing official acts. If a boy wants to wear his parka in a meeting in mid-July, I don't care, but he does take it off for open and closing flags. Like what many refer to as "class-b", it is scout related but not part of proper scout uniforming. Everyone is trying to just get by with what they think is "correct" and then do whatever they want anyway. Blue jeans, whether they are with a "class-b" t-shirt or uniform shirt is not scout related in any sense of the word and is clearly spelled out that blue jeans, even those sold by BSA, are NOT part of any scout uniform. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

Dangerous as all get out, but the tin can flashlight (bug light) is always a big sell. Stosh

A lot of times my 2-cents isn't worth 2-cents, but this is how I see it. Boy-led - The boys do the whole show from beginning to end. They design the program, plan it out and then execute it. Boy-run - The adults do the design program, plan it out parts and then have the boys execute ("run") it. The leaders lead and the boys follow directions and run it. Not much leadership required and everyone is safe and directed in the correct direction. I never use the phrase boy-run because that is how most troops that think their boys are showing leadership do it. However, to them boy-led is far too dangerous to leave in the hands of the boys. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

While I am not a doctor, I have observed a few things along the way with working with kids that has peaked my interest. I do seem to notice that a lot of people who have been diagnosed with ADD/ADHD tend to be very intelligent people. A lot of "not paying attention" has been attributed to both ADD/ADHD as well as being bored out of their skull with mundane things that would cause most others to mentally wander away from such boring situations, too. If there be, even if it's a small percentage of these people, someway to engage this intelligence into a more appropriate means it would be a gold mine of opportunity for them. One of my daughters was pegged for advanced math in high school. They wanted her to get into a "gifted" group of high math achievers. She immediately noticed that while all the "regular" math students got to do only the odd or even questions the advanced students got to do them all. Her comment to me was, "I'm not stupid, I don't want to be in the gifted class only to do twice the work." She dropped out of the advanced math group, went on to win the math achievement award when she graduated as valedictorian of her class. She went on to a big engineering school only to drop out, get married and have kids. She's now finishing up college locally working towards a degree in the food service. She's finally working on her own dreams. Her brother, equally gifted was diagnosed ADD was on Ritalin and just barely graduated. The school was open concept and while he was supposed to be listening in class, was instead tuned into other classes around him 2-3 pods away that were higher grades and more interesting. Today he can't maintain relationships, can't hold a job, tried the military and washed out, etc. etc. etc. He's still seeking and has no help in focusing his dreams. Instead of limiting these students, what are we doing to encourage their extra energy? The system at its present state does not allow for it. It's easier to give them Ritalin and keep them under control than it is to let them be who they are and develop a system that would focus their energies appropriately. Most public schools do not have the time or patience to do this. My third daughter graduated college worked for many years in a big business cubicle, just one day said enough's enough. At age 30, she enrolled in a tech school for carpentry and her dream now is to be a supervisor for a Habitat for Humanity crew and do what her heart really wants to do, swing a hammer. She's a bit of a tom boy, always was, always will be. Too masculine for a woman? Not really, just got married to a nice guy that IS a carpenter and the two plan on sharing the same dream. Last Christmas when I was shopping with her to pick out a gift for my grandchild, we wandered through the Barbie section of Walmart. She excused herself and wandered off for about 15 minutes. When she returned I asked her what she was looking for. She said, "Nothing, with all the pink in the Barbie isle, I needed to go over to home improvement until my life's equilibrium balanced back to normal." Each of them, successful or not in my estimation, are all working on what they think are their dreams, not what some system, culture, or society says they should be. I hope that I have given them support in what it is they want out of life. I run the same philosophy with my scouts. What are their dreams, their hopes, and then help them get there. There's no system for that, but theoretically, BSA is one of the few programs out there that has something like that in the fine print at the bottom of the page. Your mileage may vary. Stosh (aka Don Quiote)

LOL! We have a man in the shipping department that handles huge pieces of equipment heading out the door. Biker is an understatement. He's huge, beard, long hair pulled back in a pony-tail, wears a sheath knife with a large brass ball on the hilt, has a look in his eyes that will make your blood run cold. I don't know if he owns a Harley, but if he doesn't, he should. Yet he's a soft-spoken, quiet man. Does his job and is well liked by his fellow workers, gets along with everyone around him, a man's man. However, if in the midst of a conversation with this man things aren't pleasing to him, he begins to rub the ball on the hilt of his sheath knife. I don't know what comes after rubbing the hilt, and I don't know if anyone has ever pushed the issue. At least in terms of #1) Warrior, protector, etc. there was no doubt this was a dangerous man, but he was still one of the "nicest" guys in the plant. (Just don't cross him!) Stosh

1964 Plymouth 4 door, 3 on the column, slant 6 .... Definitely not a babe-magnet. The only heads it turned was when they took a second look and said, "What in hell was that!" Your mileage may vary, (but not with that car....) Stosh

OGE, yeah, I thought it was a good comeback. As far as the car analogy, I used the extremes for emphasis. When a boy dreams he dreams in excess but normally will come back to a little reality when faced with the financial concerns of buying and maintaining a high performance car. Heck, I didn't get my first car until I was out of school and working and could afford it. Didn't quit dreaming though, I now have my 74 Nova with Crager S/S mags on it. It doesn't have the 460 ci bored out engine, just a six cylinder that gets 24 mpg so I can at least drive it. One also has to keep in mind that all the hard-wiring needs to balance. If the man goes off and seeks adventure abandoning his responsibility of protecting his wife and kids, he's not a man at all. Got a ton of "boy-men" out there that fall into that category. 1) Powerful, protector, warrior - needs a purpose See #3 2) Adventure - not just for himself, but his family, too. (Trip to Disney World, etc.) 3) Woman - the reason for being a man in the first place and the glue that holds together the other two. I think that without the balance of the three one ends up with the man-boy that was referenced earlier. As far as bullies are concerned, one does not need to win the battle to be the hero, i.e. BRAVEHEART, SAVING PRIVATE RYAN, THEY DIED WITH THEIR BOOTS ON, etc. We wouldn't be much of a hero-warrior if we only fought the battles we knew we could win. Yet like MattR points out, are we settling for second best and not at least having the boys strive for excellence? The parents in my former troop were concerned that the boys were taking on too much responsibility/leadership. They stripped the excellence out of the program and took over the leadership, not from me (SM) but from the boys too! Buddy system - marriage Patrol method - family Organizing a trip to Philmont - Family vacation Service projects - community involvement on behalf of others What scouting is designed to do is help the boy become an effective man. When he ages out at 18 he should "Be Prepared" for the world which now faces him? Is he 1) strong and powerful, knowing that he at least has an even chance in "battle". 2) Is he confident that the adventures out there, the unknown, the unexplored world of his existence is something to look forward to or to fear? 3) is there a reason for all this? Marriage, family, friends, community.... Is there someone out there that I have a reason to protect, tend to, share life with that will have my back in this whole process? If parents, adult leaders, etc. strip these features out of Scouting, what does one have to offer? Your mileage may vary, Stosh

MattR, you're on the right track, you may not be promoting dreams and excellence of something better down the road for these boys, but you are at least creating the opportunity for those dreams. That's the first step in the right direction. In the average troop meeting how many times do we say yes and how many times do we say no. Don't play in the fire. Don't be waving that stick around. Safety you say? What great adventure out there doesn't have some sort of risk involved? What fireman does his job every day with the possibility he won't be going home at the end of his shift? What policeman does his job every day with the possibility he .... What soldier does his job every day with the possibility..... What astronaut does his job ever day with the possibility... We call these people heroes, but we don't ever want our boys to be heroes and deep inside of them they all long to be such.... No you can't have that dream, you can't reach for excellence, you can't be a hero..... If you don't know how to plan a trip, find your way on a map, find food/restaurants along the way, budget the costs, secure a safe place to spend the night... you will never be a hero to your 6 year old son who wants to go to Disney World. Every son/daughter wants their father to be a man, a warrior, a protector, a man that will open the door to adventure and promote their dreams along the way. The opportunity to do any and all of this is designed into Scouting and yet we don't deliver on the promise. (?) OGE, you just gotta give up those Marvel comic books! LOL Definition of MYSTIQUE 1 : an air or attitude of mystery and reverence developing around something or someone 2 : the special esoteric skill essential in a calling or activity See mystique defined for English-language learners Examples of MYSTIQUE 1. There's a certain mystique to people who fight fires. 2. No one has been able to copy the legendary singer's mystique. 3. the mystique of mountain climbing Origin of MYSTIQUE French, from mystique, adjective, mystic, from Latin mysticus First Known Use: 1891 Your mileage may vary, Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

So then what is Scouting doing to promote, incite and encourage those dreams of young boys? One can't just say the world is going to discourage them so why bother trying? Is it thus the common consensus the American Dream might be over and we've all awakened to despair? If parents are doing everything for them, why dream? Thus we have long discussions on helicopter parents. What happens when one day each of these boys awakens to the world of adulthood and they aren't ready? That'll take a lot of wind out of one's sail. At what point in one's life does one give up on dreams? Heck, at 60 I still have dreams out there, it may rapidly turning into a bucket list, but they're still there. It's easier at a young age to help the boys with their dreams than it is to take an old dog like me and try to revive them. If I can still keep the dream alive at 60, why can't we keep it alive for 10 and 11 year olds? I have a few mentor pins stuck on my jac-shirt that remind me that dreams are still possible. What is going on that is working against those dynamics that we as Scouters can reverse and help these kids out? There are a lot more geldings in the world than there are stallions because geldings are a lot easier and a lot safer alternative to trying to risk breaking a stallion. How much discouragement do we dish out and create couch potatoes and let them believe that the outcome they have chosen is still okay because it doesn't bother the neighbors? There's a lot to be said about having the strongest natural leaders in one's troop that are also the hardest to control. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

Okay okay! LOL Mystique But seriously, are the couch potatoes what we make of males or is it that they have given up on their dreams? Every little boy has dreams of great things, heroic things, honorable things and yet after due process of culture end up sitting on the couch watching football while the wife is abandoned and lonely 2 rooms away? I know of no little boy that wants to grow up to be divorced. They want to be a soldier, a president, a policeman, etc. Heroic and honorable dreams. He needs to be powerful to do those things. He has to know he can do those things or he won't have the heart to take it to the heroic level. Women? Any little boys you know want to grow up and marry a woman that doesn't need him? Yeah right. I'm just trying to figure out what happens to the great dreams and plans of little boys and what we do to them by the time they reach adulthood. And why so many of them don't develop and end up boy-men. Scouting has access to these boys from K-college and so we could have an impact, but do we? It's kinda like while we debate the pros and cons of laser tag, the boys are off isolated in their bedrooms playing some of the most violent war games some adult can think up. Basically is this how they are realizing their dreams? We expect boys to take on challenges and yet forbid them access to self-defense martial arts training. We teach them to tattle on bullies rather than fix it themselves. Okay... my boy is on the playground and is confronted by the class bully. He gets pushed down, and bounces back up and hauls off and lands a big one on the bully. Who's the hero? A Scout is Brave. If nothing else, any bully will think twice before picking a fight with someone who is a bit dangerous. Yes a Scout Courteous, Kind, Obedient when needed, but is he ever Brave when needed? Don't need to be brave is you're home sitting on the couch watching TV bemoaning the fact that you're wife just ran off with the washing machine repairman. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

I thought about this topic now for some time and as everyone on the forum knows I've been around for awhile so I'm not really a troll per se. But since I was removed as a SM for expecting too much leadership in a boy-led, patrol-method program I've had a lot of time to read. I am presently reading a book titled WILD AT HEART. It's a Christian based book but applies to any religion. The premise states that males in this world are hard-wired differently than women and as anyone would tend to agree that men are from Mars and women are from Venus, it kind of holds true. But then what is that hard-wiring and how does it apply to Scouting? For 4,000 years of recordable history we can see patterns that have applied and when compared to today's society in the 21st Century in our culture of America there seems to be a disconnect, or at least an attempt to disconnect that hard-wiring. So with an attempt to not unduly judge the issue, I would like the forum's thought on the subject. Males basically have three distinct hard-wires that need to be formed for stability of the male mystic, i.e. what makes a man a man. 1) Man is a hunter, gatherer, warrior. This is not unique to the human species, but does apply. The man has historically been put in this role. From an early age, before societal and cultural dynamics are applied to cover this up, one can see small boys fulfilling these natural, hard-wired dynamics. Give them a stick and it immediately becomes a "weapon". Cops and robbers, cowboy and Indians, toy soldiers, etc. all reinforce this natural tendency. We have discussed on this on the forum at great length. Give the kid a walking stick and it immediately becomes, well, you know, a sword or a lance, etc. Rocks? They are not to decorate gardens, they are projectiles, plain and simple. Our society does everything within it's power to curtail this natural tendency and thus emasculate our boys. He is satisfied only if he knows he is powerful enough to meet the challenges that face him in the world. How will he react if a bully confronts him if he's never learned how to fight? Can he fulfill his role as a man when challenged? 2) Man is not a home-body, he needs adventure. World conquerors, explorers, any one who ventures out into the unknown with a bit of trepidation and fear becomes excited about what's just around the corner! To a small boy, what's down the block beyond what he can see from his yard is a chance to explore and conquer. Heroic adventures are not HERE, but out THERE somewhere else. The natural tendency for males to to venture forth looking for the unknown, even if it is only unknown to him. It involves fear of the unknown and a chance to conquer that fear. 3) Man needs a woman to claim and protect for his own. Every Romeo needs a Juliet, behind every great man is a woman, etc. Man is not satisfied as a lone wolf, he must have a reason to fight, explore and protect. That role is provided by the female of the species. If he can't fight how can he protect a woman? What if he hasn't fulfilled the adventure of seeking the right mate? Assuming that there is any truth to these three hard-wires in our boys, how many of them do we emasculate from our boys? I have often used the story of the young boy that is climbing his first tree. An adventure, a challenge to overcome an inner fear. Mom stands at the base of the tree and calls out, "Be careful!" and dad standing next to her calls out, "How high can you go?!" When a boy turns 16 he dreams about his first car. A Chevelle SS with a high performance 460 c.i. engine with racing slicks on the jacked up back. Dad says, I had a Harley when I was your age, and mom is going nuts! When the dust settles the boy gets a used Volvo because it's the safest car on the road. When momma ain't happy, nobody's happy. And another step is taken to emasculate the boy struggling for manhood. Aggressive boys are drugged down with Ritalin, told to sit quiet and be like the girls or they will grow up to be aggressive, adventurous, and ... dangerous! Maybe a bit too wild! They might take on bigger than life attributes like heroism or something dangerous. Is our modern definition of a "nice guy" really manhood or some contrived definition that runs counter to the hard-wiring of the male mystic? Your thoughts? Stosh

Just north of Rice Lake are two BSA camps Phillips and Spearhead(Chippewa Valley and North Star Councils).

Every time someone starts asking about one's "rights" and what's the "rules" and it's written in our "bylaws", I thinking there is something more serious going on than just the surface comment proposed. Whenever there is talk about ousting someone, that's level 5 conflict, cannot be resolved is probably going to be doing some significant damage to the operations of that troop. So, I'd be looking for the root cause of the problem rather than just shuffling leadership around at the top hoping things just go away. So to answer the question... Sure, why not. Try something different than what you've been doing because what you have been doing has gotten you into this problem in the first place. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

The boys set the dues at a quarter. The amount wasn't as important as the process. Even at that level they ought to be able to accord a few pizza's every couple of months. Stosh

Moose, I've been sewing my patches on for years and I still sew pockets shut, sleeves shut and to the pants I'm wearing. I have discovered that if one puts a small notebook in the pocket, or down the sleeve (roll up a spiral notebook, jam it down the sleeve), it keeps the needles from coming into contact with the other fabric below. As far as sewing to my own pants? I now have to make sure no matter what I'm doing I have to keep the work up in my hands. After tearing out hundreds of stitches over the years, one eventually does learn. When all is said and done, as one can tell from this thread (no pun intended) that tearing out stitches is still a better way to go that trying to remove Badge Magic gunk. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

Before my ouster as SM for expecting too much leadership out of my boys, we instituted the process of weekly dues. The reason for this is so that the patrol treasurers would actually have functional responsibility in the patrol. Each week, he would collect dues, and make a report to the patrol the beginning balance, what was taken in from whom at the last meeting, and an ending balance. Took 10 - 15 seconds to make his report. The money collected by the patrol was to be used by the boys any way they saw fit. They did not have to get any approval from the troop committee. The boys were currently planning a pizza party after the annual swim test at the local school pool in preparation for summer camp. Those boys who were behind on their dues were expected to pay for their own pizza or get caught up. The idea behind the process was not to collect money but to have the boys come prepared to the meeting with some forethought and to have the patrol leadership actually have some responsibility to fulfill. I don't know what happened to this practice after I left, but if the parents were insisting on less leadership responsibility for the boys, I'm sure the practice was dropped. I'm sure it was a leadership function that the parents were taking away from the boys that they didn't want to do. Your mileage may vary, Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

I am a PM MB counselor and those boys that don't have allowances I deal with differently than most. What I have the boys do is budget the value of what they are "spending" during the course of a day. For example, if their parents have paid for their school lunch the boy notes in his budget/journal that $3.00 is marked down has having been spent for his lunch even if he never saw the actual cash. If he needs new socks, he puts it in his journal even if mom/dad pays for it. If he gets an allowance, he deals with that as well. This way the boy gets to know what it costs him to get from one day to the next even if he doesn't actually see the cash in the mean time. I do this every day of my life. I have direct deposit and a debit card. Do I ever have cash in my pocket? Not very often. If I looked at cash only, I would only be spending about $2,000/year to live. I know from experience that not everything is viewed in cash terms. Go with the value system instead, the boy will quickly realize how much value passes "through his hands" for his welfare. If he gets a $5.00/wk allowance and dad takes him to the ballgame, it would be valuable to the boy to know just how much dad spent on his ticket, treats and souvenirs on his behalf even if the boy didn't use his allowance in the mean time. It's kinda like looking at a business' operations by looking at more than just the petty cash account. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

A few years back a number of troops in northern Wisconsin were on a Winter Survival training weekend. The temperature dropped to -43 degrees. The staff went out and asked that each troop come back in to the lodge. ALL troops refused. They were all bedded down for the night hunkered into their snow caves and didn't want any part of getting up and going out into the cold. The next morning only one car in the parking lot started, but the boys have a lifetime of bragging rights as a result of their decisions. These boys were properly trained and properly equipped and had a great time. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

Man does this draw up old memories. I remember doing this as a cub back in the 1950's!!!! Stosh

I wasn't involved with the meeting so I don't know what the issue was, who was making it, or how many it involved. I had two ASM's. One that took over the troop and the other ASM was not invited either to the meeting and so he knows less than I do. He hasn't called me to say anything so I'm thinking the "cone of silence" has him on the outside too. I haven't wasted my time pursuing a done deal. If I happen to find out more about the situation it'll probably by hit-or-miss chance sometime in the future. I called the Council office and left messages but none have been returned. Stosh

I found that when the boys took ownership (including planning) of a trip that they wanted to go on, they figured it out rather quickly. If the boys didn't have ownership and they didn't plan, there was no investment of themselves and when it came time to go, they could easily back out as having no dog in the game. It also means that if they don't have ownership, getting them to plan was an uphill battle. If they didn't have ownership and didn't want to go in the first place, then all it's going to do is frustrate the SM who puts a ton of effort into an activity that no one but he and his 2-deep show up for. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

I have but one boy that would fit that bill and unfortunately, he 1) turned 18 this past year, 2) became a ASM, 3) took all the SM training 4) took WB 5) has scuba cert., 6) was hired on as staff at an out-of-council camp, 7) will be moving to Oklahoma this fall, taking up engineering, ROTC and 8) signing on in the Air Force Reserves. Going to to a USAF fighter pilot. Best Eagle Scout I've ever seen. I'm sure the whiney parents didn't bring up such things in their discussions... If I was 16 again, I'd take you up on it myself, sounds like you have figured out the key to running a successful boy-led program, my hat's off to you. Well done. Our council has another struggling boy-led, patrol-method troop, 25 miles away. I'm thinking they may need some no-help from another adult. Stosh

Hmmm, I'm thinking "help other people at all times..." might be drawn out in a SMC. I'm thinking the Oath isn't restricted to the check box in the book. Stosh

One of the risks one runs with empowering the boys in a boy-led program is that the skills and confidence they develop can be used for positive growth and development or for negative tyranny and destruction. That can be a dangerous thing to do with young boys who can have a vision of the world that revolves solely around them. Not all boys are the same and one never can tell which ones are which at times. It's like training bears at the circus. A very dear friend of mine who spent her whole life in the circus said that training cats was a lot easier than training bears. Cats are expressive and when mad the trainer can tell right away. Bears on the other hand have no expression at all and can be very friendly and cooperative one moment and kill you the next without any forewarning. As part of their leadership development it was couched carefully with the Scout Law and Oath, neither of which seems to have taken root for a few of the boys. Boys know that from an early age on if they wish to get their way on something, a little tantrum along the way usually motivates parents to make the problem their son is facing to go away. Of course, none of the parents feel the need to adhere to the Scout Law or Oath, so they become easy pawns for their boys. Speed Leas has a very good guide for conflict that I have used all my life. 1) There's a problem. It can be identified and solved. 2) Something's wrong. We don't know what to fix, move to level 1, solve. 3) Something's wrong and someone's to blame. Adds to the conflict and keeps everyone from dealing with the real problem. 4) Gamesmanship. There are some that stir the waters just because it's fun. Don't want anyone to leave the game because then the fun's over. 5) Divorce. Someone has to go, game's over. 6) Jihad. I'll take you out even if it means destroying me in the process. The surprising part of this whole situation is how it came out of nowhere at level 5/6. Normally one gets wind of things long before it has escalated that far. Developing leadership in the realm of the unknown of immature youth is basically like wiring a house with the electricity turned on. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

John-in-KC: Communication was the core of the problem. The CC has been in place since late last fall and was hand-picked by the former CC as one who would carry the mantle of boy-led, patrol-method. However, once a couple of helicopter parents gang up on a newbie CC, SE and UC, it's a pretty much done deal. The boy-led, patrol-method was specifically what the helicopter parents were against. They wanted an adult-led program for their kids and that's pretty hard to compete with a boy-led approach. It'll be interesting the next few weeks to observe (from afar) the fall-out from this. I'm thinking this may be far from over. However, returning would be pretty much impossible in that we'll lose a few of the boys and the bad taste in the mouths of the disgruntled parents would keep the reputation of the troop at a continual low. The next step for these parents would be to pick up the new Webelos boys, tell their parents how terrible the troop is and start another competitive troop next door. People like this just don't give up. As far as revenge is concerned. Not going to happen. In order for me to do that, I'd have to get down on their level and that's really not where I ever want to be. As I said before, I don't live in the district where this former troop is, so if I continue in scouting getting a troop closer to home would be a good thing. I know that by running a boy-led, patrol-method troop is the exception and not the rule in our council, so I'm thinking the Council isn't going to be in any hurry to "wreck" another troop with such radical ideas. I did put in a call to the other district's DE to have a cup of coffee with him. Haven't heard back from him yet. Hmmm, let figure this out... Count the weekends.... 1) Spring Camporee, 2-3) Summer camp, 4) Fall Camporee, 5) Whitewater canoe trip, 6) Late summer backpack trip, 7) Winter camp, 8) Winter Survival. Then there's the three weeks of vacation I never get to take, last year was summer camp and jambo, this year, plenty of days to turn each one of those 8 weekends into 3-4 day weekends. Oh, yes indeedy, I hear my kayak in the garage calling my name.... Add to that my regular personal trips (4-5) , and then there's Civil War reenacting. The 150th Anniversary of the Civil War starts this year and I'm already signed up for First Bull Run in July..... There's 8 other events on the calendar this year with that. 20+ weekends of camping and no responsibility. I might be able to work up enough selfishness to get used to that in short order. What the helicopter parents never bothered to realize is that although I put my heart and soul into their boy's leadership development, in the long run, I didn't have to.... I'm still a registered UC so I'll have plenty of things to do, but as you know, I would rather be hands-on with the boys in the trenches.... Over the past 40 years, I have started 44 different Explorer/Venturing post/crew, I took this troop on just before it was about to collapse and brought it back up to reasonable size, I can start all over from scratch if I have to. I'm still 100% sold on boy-led, patrol-method as the only way to go, even if one runs the risk that at any time other adults can step in and take it all away. It was a great ride, even if it didn't last very long. Now at least I know it can work! Your mileage may vary, Stosh