Stosh

Scoop... 4" isn't much to work with. Stosh

Maintenance/cleaning in an auto tire plant. Sweeping up lampblack (imagine black waterproof talcum powder...) We all looked like coal miners when we ended the shift. Had to clean up before heading home so as to not ruin the interior of your car. Never wore anything other than company provided coveralls because no laundromat in town would allow you to wash your clothes in their machines. Never wanted to get soap in your eyes so unless you used cold cream it always looked like you had put on a heavy dosage of mascara.... One could take a shower, put on clean clothes and a couple of hours later in hot weather your clothes were filthy from the lampblack forced out of our pores. Lovely job! Stosh

50'- 75' of para cord tied as a French Twist is a lot easier to attach to a walking stick than making a 10' bracelet. It makes a great handle for the stick. No walking stick? French Twist tie it on the frame of your back pack. A daisy-chain lanyard is also 100% faster to untie in an emergency, too. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

PVC toilet - 4" diameter PVC pipe with solid cap on one end - Screw on cap on the other. 1' for every couple of days. Fill about 1/3rd to 1/2 full of cat litter (use the lighter stuff instead of clay). Instead of using plastic bags, put in pipe, cap on, shake. Good to go. When done just pour out, rinse and you're good until the next time you need it. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

So then, the question gets asked, "Are Eagle Projects to demonstrate leadership or accomplish a task?" Stosh

I'm thinking that maybe some of the issue lies with insurance. I believe that those under a certain age cannot rent a car even if they are over 18. The only issue that an adult cannot participate in is drinking which varies but is generally 21. There is no reasonable explanation for hypocrisy. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

I have always had a problem with the Eagle projects. Far too often I see it more of accomplishing a task rather than showing leadership. Where is the leadership when it is the SM or some other adult that makes the suggestion for the project? Where is the leadership when the project is critiqued and evaluated by multiple adults prior to it's submission? Where is the leadership when all the rules pertaining to the project are established by the scouter leadership? etc. I have seen more leadership out of Star and Life scouts that organize and prepare the troop for Camporees, Popcorn Sales, Summer Camp, etc. than I have on a lot of "Eagle Projects". I had a boy who was dissatisfied with our summer camp experience. Went on line and found a camp that fit more into the needs of the troop. Registered us, organized/collected the finances, lined up rides, signed up all the boys for MB's, and made sure all the equipment for the camp was in place. All this to go to a camp we had never been to before!!! There were 2 patrols (15 boys) that went that year. For an Eagle project this boy cleaned up after a construction project for his church. Picked up garbage, raked the sand, planted some shrubbery and prepped the area for the professional landscapers. His Eagle project was a walk in the park compared to some of the other leadership demonstrations he had done earlier. I had a First Class scout (13 year-old) take on the Popcorn Sale this past year. He motivated the boys, lined up numerous show-and-sells, got the boys together to canvass neighborhoods, turned in weekly sale sheets so boys could win prizes, collected up all the sheets at the end, placed the order, picked up the product, and made sure all the boys got what they needed for their customers. It was the most successful Popcorn Sale in troop history. (not in $$'s but in amount of product processed!) It is unfortunate that leadership is measured more in terms of Eagle projects that clean up parks than for what I call true leadership shown by the boys in their "normal" activities. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

Of course there is going to be strong adult leadership of the SM in the area of training. Hillcourt's training assumes the SM takes on the roll of PL to walk the boys through the steps. Hillcourt's approach is the only effective way of developing the patrol method because of it's emphasis on patrol autonomy. The magic of the approach is the adults knowing how to skillfully slip out of the leadership position, turning it over to the boys and then supporting/reinforcing learning from a supportive position. Too many adults can't handle that transition very well. Even though it is no longer allowed in BSA policy, there is nothing wrong with the goal of independent activities sans adults. It's called a family outing once the boy turns 18 anyway. 45 years ago when independent activities were allowed, we as boys never knew we could. None in my group of buddies was ever first class (after 4 years) and so we were never "allowed" to go out on our own. However, all we did was ask our parents and went anyway. Left the uniforms at home and went and had a great time. Eventually we dropped the scouting altogether and just went hunting/fishing/camping on our own. The group (i.e. "patrol") finally broke up and we went our separate ways at HS graduation. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

I like the patrol method of operation. Patrols mess as a group. They can, if they wish, invite guests. Leadership patrol is developed if the troop is large enough. (Older boy patrol could also double function as this patrol in that the position) They mess together as a group. Adult patrol mess as a group. No rule should be implemented that interferes with how a patrol wishes to operate. The other patrols form out of a necessity. If the SM has to eat alone because the ASM has been invited as a guest chef instructor for the new boy patrol for the weekend. So be it. At least the SM has no one to worry about dietary likes/dislikes, or other needs for the weekend. Or one can do like a lot of troops do it. Mess as a troop and then you don't have to worry about any of this. (And don't roll your cyber-eyes at me... I see it all the time in various troops!) Your mileage may vary. Stosh

One of the greatest things about starting a new troop is that there are no legacy traditions that come with the package. You and the boys can design the troop you want it to be right from the git-go. I have had the privilege of starting new units and that is the greatest asset in the pile of options available to you. Sit down with the boys, involve them from the onset and design a troop as they would envision it. Boy led? Sure, why not. No history that says you can't. Patrol method? Sure, why not. No history.... etc. This way, your young boys can grow with the troop as they have designed it. The only "problem" with the system is that there are so many options that it can, and probably will, overwhelm the boys at first. So take a little step at a time. Do one little new thing every week. Functional organization should be somewhere in the first few steps. "Should we have a patrol(s)?" "How should the PL be put in place?" "Do we need a Scribe?" "How about...?" etc. Then move on to the basic programs: "Should we meet every week?", "How often should we go camping?" etc. Eventually, this process will open the way for future opportunities. If designed effectively for your troop, maybe those questions will never end! Eventually in a few years your boys might be asking, "Should we go to Philmont or Sea Base?" A "tradition" of the boys taking ownership in every step of the process will create a great program. Of course one could take another track. Have the parents/leaders design everything the way they think it ought to be and at the first meeting announce that this is the way things are going to shake out. The 11 year old boys will dutifully nod assent just like they have been taught to do when adults are doing all the leadership. I guess it just boils down to whether you are starting a program, or organizing future leaders...... Your mileage may vary, Stosh

Ain't politics great when you're on the winning/dominating side? After many, many years of committees, etc., if one doesn't have a voice in the proceedings, it is just better to walk away. Many on the dominant side feel it's their privilege to make up the ideas/activities and the grunts get to put it together and do all the work. Hopefully in the manner they expect, or there'll be hell to pay. If one does not have a full vote in a committee, there is no need to attend. If the committee is in need of a report, write one up and hand it in. There should be no "discussion" on a report except for corrections. People have gotten away from the basics of Robert's Rules of Order and have substituted in their place doing it some sort of hodge-podge way of traditional processes. Unfortunately Robert's Rules of Order were created to PROTECT all members of a group and allow for the expression of ALL ideas. Without these Rules of Order, there is no order. Yes, they are stuffy and awkward, but so is wearing protective clothing in a hostile environment. People who don't use orderly operational processes will eventually accept the strongest voice's demands and ways, or leave. Unless a group uses some sort of Robert's, I don't participate, it's a total waste of time to sit and listen to someone spout off about how things are going to be done and then have no say in it. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

Have a full-pocket sized patrol emblem and afix it on the right shirt pocket. Have a patrol necker (with patrol patch on it), wear when doing patrol activities, switch to troop standards for troop activities. Wear it in the belt when not in use, like the OA guys do with their sashes (like they're not supposed to be doing). Go with a patrol hat with bright colorful patrol patch on front. Take hat off as necessary if troop doesn't have an official hat as part of the uniform. Afix the patrol patch to an elastic armband and take it off for inspections. A walking stick with patrol colors might work well for some. There is more than one way to skin a cat and still be within regs. One doesn't need to have a special patch to instill patrol spirit. One does not have to break any rules, just bend them a bit. Stosh

In the three years I served in my boy-led, patrol-method program, there were no elections. Boys that wanted to step up an take lead on something were given the chance to prove themselves. If no one wanted to take lead, then that activity was dropped. I had a boy wanted to do Chaplain's Aid and stayed in that position for the whole three years I was SM, with a devotion at every flag opening and a prayer at flag closing. Another boy wanted to be SPL for summer camp so he organized the whole summer camp experience, finances, MB's, rides, equipment, etc. and assigned himself SPL for the week. Downside to the whole thing, boys that do not want to do leadership will eventually sabotage the system and complain that they aren't having any fun and will in fact try and turn it back into an adult/parent run operation. The 'class clowns' will indeed show leadership but not in a positive manner. Most of those boys are more interested in getting attention than in actually leading. Stosh

I have one of my uniforms of the wool/blend. I have my UC patch on it so I keep the heavy duty wear on my cotton shirts. The wool/blend is a VERY nice shirt and I'm glad I picked it up on E-Bay for about $15. Stosh

I depends on the Eagles themselves. I worked hard on esprit-de-corps with my boys and the last ECOH was nothing more than a reception added on to a regular COH. We started with the TF ranks, and worked our way up to Eagle. An additional fanfare was added at that point emphasizing the accomplishment, i.e. thank-you speeches by the Eagles, etc. The families of the Eagles decorated the room with the Eagle's history and then hosted a cake reception following. It was very nice and wasn't the big, over-the-top thingy. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

"pouring rain" = go out for 10 seconds and you're drenched. It doesn't make a difference whether you're in rain gear or not. There's only one step further and that's a "down-pour". That means if it lasts more than 10 minutes, you had better start looking for an ark. Seriously, if you are driving a car in a "down-pour" you need to pull over if you can find the side of the road because the wipers on high aren't doing any good. 1) Misting - fine spray of moisture 2) Drizzle - actual rain drops but not much more than that 3) Rain - Put on your rain gear. 4) Pouring Rain - you're not going anywhere soon. 4) Down pour - heavy rain, usually enough to put out all campfires 5) Deluge - The logs in the campfire can actually float away. Your mileage may vary Stosh

Back when I was a kid.... We were allowed to independently do patrol outings without adult leadership. All we needed to do was get SM approval. If that wasn't forthcoming, we simply asked our parents and then went anyway. We didn't wear out BSA uniforms, we didn't get credit for the camp out, but we had fun anyway. With support of our parents and hassle from the adult BSA leadership, we all eventually, as a patrol, quit scouting. We continued to camp together all the way trough high school, eventually breaking up when we all went off our separate ways after graduation. There might be a lesson or two nestled in this. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

Stay home is my only alternative. They have outlawed trash, (garbage pollution, pack it out) They have outlawed loud talking (noise pollution) They have outlawed bright colored tents (visual pollution) They have outlawed lasers, LED high intensity lanterns (light pollution) They have even restricted access to certain areas (people pollution) So that leaves two alternatives - stay home or .... Nope there's only one, stay home. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

Kinda is a sad situation when one figures that spilled fuel is more dangerous for everyone concerned than spilled firewood. I've been using wood for fires for 50 years now and have camped everywhere, including pristine city park lawns and still have been able to LNT wherever I go. It's a matter of training, not rules. LNT for me is more of an attitude rather than a set of rules. Yes, it is possible to build a proper fire pit using a cat hole shovel. It's a bit rough on the edge, but one can very quickly cut a fire pit using a belt ax and sheath knife, too. Last fire I built for cooking? Kayak trip, camped on a sand bar, when we left, no trace of a fire (or anything else) could be found. The last thing I want in my sealed compartment is explosive fuel on a hot day. When comparing the safety issues, wood won hands down! Your mileage may vary, Stosh

The one I like was related to me by my brother who works for the Federal Bureau of Prisons. Bank robber enters Bank A and writes a note of intention on a deposit slip. Stands in line. While waiting in the long line, notices there are no lines at the bank across the street goes there and hands the teller the note. She calmly explains that she can't accept that note because it's on a deposit slip of Bank A. When he goes back to Bank A the teller of the second bank alerts the police and the would be robber is eventually arrested while standing in line the second time. Stosh

I guess it all boils down to how much and which tools/methods are being used. Having a well run outdoor program is not mutually exclusive of having a full uniform. None of these methods are mutually exclusive, but like any tool, they can be under utilized or not used at all and still may get the job done. I might have both a screw driver and a hammer in my tool box, both doing different jobs. However, if all I was interested in was getting the job done, I could merely hammer in all screws and thus never really feel the need to use a screw driver. The job gets done, but could the process be improved? Sure. That's the point of the methods. Each one focuses on a different situation and can be overly used, used just right or under used depending on the person using the tool. Bedecked uniforms on a backpack trip might be a bit of overkill at Philmont, but might be just right for an ECOH. On the other hand showing up in "half a uniform" for ECOH's have left a poor taste in the mouths of a few on this forum. Cub Scouts without neckers have raised a few eyebrows as have scouting programs with minimal or no outdoor activities. Sure, one can have a functional troop and drop a couple of the methods, or simply not use the methods to their fullest, and it still might work. Hammering in a screw might work, too. Living in an older house with back lathe and plaster, it is a good idea to drill a hole in the plaster before tapping in a nail! I see benefit from all the methods, and ideally we should be working towards using them all to their fullest without going overboard with any of them. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

Caution: the following information might be difficult to consider.... If I'm not mistaken, I have read various articles and depending on where you will be, the rules change. Some say pack all human waste out. However on the Colorado (source for all S. California drinking water, pack out bowel movement, but urinate IN the river. Do not leave scent and salts near the river to draw animals. Medically speaking urine, unless there is a serious medical problem, is sterile and is cleaner than the water source nearby. The issue is more psychological than medical. Medically speaking, urine can be "recycled" up to 6-7 times before the salt levels reach dangerous levels, i.e. like drinking sea water. However, a solar still will remove those salts. In a life or death survival situation, this information may be sufficient to overcome the psychological issues and still be safe. The permits should tell each location what is expected. There is no general rule for all circumstances. However, if one needs a general rule, I would simply state pack all human waste out. A PVC biffy is easy enough to make that there should be no excuse. Your mileage may vary, Stosh

How many boys are actually taught appropriate leadership and how many are voted in and have to try and figure it out on their own. There is a reference to appropriate leadership in the PL handbook, but it is often glossed over in light of today's management instruction vs. the more historical leadership instruction. I have never had a problem with appropriate leadership in my troops and was eventually replaced by the parents because the boys were having to do too much leadership. Obviously appropriate leadership is immediately recognizable in that one of my "over trained" boys, graduates from HS this spring, and after receiving an application without being requested, has a job at the scout camp as assistant director of high adventure. Not bad for a boy's first job, with no experience... Your mileage may vary Stosh

If the methods are only tools, why is everyone concerned about all the McGyvers out there running fairly successful programs? Stosh

Of course these methods are all ideals, and there are a ton of people working hard at improving, but at what point do we settle for second best and quit trying? Just as everyone has personal differences, the point at which we place limits vary. Every time I hear someone say, "it's good enough", what they are really saying is that they have given up on the ideal and they begin to make up excuses to justify their position, i.e. "I did my best", "this method is not as important as some of the others", "in our unique situation we can't....", etc. The minute one stop moving forward, they begin to fall behind. Not everyone in these situations will be able to recognize or understand this, but some will. This is why I tend to say, ... Your mileage may vary, Stosh