Stosh

After 55 years of camping, I use noting but aluminum mess kits. I am leary of soft plastic because scratches hold bacteria. If washing does clear the bacteria, the next meal will. An aluminum mess kit can be held over a heat source to sanitize. If the food is too hot to handle in the plate, use the frypan and hang on to the handle. If you can't fill the kit sufficient for a growing boy's appetite, go back for seconds. If the cup is too small to handle hot chocolate, use the boiler. The nice thing about the aluminum mess kit is you can cook in it as well as eat out of it. Stosh

5 digits? Heck, I had to crank the little handle on a box on the wall and then say a 3 digit number. If you couldn't remember the number you just said their name, the operator knew the number. I even remember once saying I want to talk to my mom and the operator put me through to the grocery store where she had last seen her go into. What's really neat is when I was first learning to use a cell phone, I always had to have someone dial it for me took a lot of ribbing for that. Finally got one and whenever these young whipper-snappers would want to borrow it, I simply suggested they use the rotary phone on the wall. Touche! Stosh

I never used sign's up when dealing with boys in my troop. I didn't address the boys as a group very often and when I did I was asked and the boys were already paying attention to who was speaking in the first place. Stosh

This "movement" is nothing more than a counter-balance to the efforts of another grassroots movement, the Tea Party. Obviously the Dems and Reps are not really speaking for the people anymore and are more interested in their own institutional preservation than working for the people they represent. So the anti-big government/pro-capitalist people began to speak up. Both established parties take potshots at them. Then the anti-big business/pro-socialist people begin to speak up. Both reload and start again. Both the spin off groups want their voices to be heard and both Washington institutions aren't listening. Instead Rep/Dems are spinning the existence of these groups to support the continuation of their long established institutions and have quit address the needs of the people they claim to be listening to. While the Rep/Dems struggle to maintain their power base, they are both going to lose out to the voices of the people, because the real power is in the votes and once these grassroots begin to make progress, Washington is going to have to pay attention or go by the way of the Whigs, No-Nothings and Tories. Stosh

Depends on your ruggedness/luxury levels and attitude. I have backpacked for a weekend using the old Yucca pack (canvas) and canteen (aluminum). It holds more than I need and it doesn't have a waist belt. I counter that with a tumpline and have no problem. The canteen is small (1 qt), carry purification tablets. The "heaviest" part of the load is the wool blanket/gum blanket bed roll. Food is no cook, trail mix, beans, jerky, sausage, oatmeal, etc. Spoon and cup are all I take for the "kitchen". I only plan on cooking where I can have an open fire. Then I have pocket knife, matches and an aluminum mess kit. I have on occasion done the trail mix only treks for 3 days (and only starved to death twice.) I have found over the years that there is a direct ratio between ruggedness and luxury and luxury is often times something I don't want to put up with in order to get that much further into the back country. The variance between the two extremes is measured in attitude. I would challenge the boys to lighten the load or endure the pain. Unfortunately there are a lot of adults that cannot make it into the woods very far because the troop trailer can't get there. I have seen so many boys take stuffed military duffle bags to a camporee wondering how they would have enough time to wear all those clothes before the weekend was over. Getting military duffles with shoulder straps doesn't really solve the basic problem. If measured against body weight I should be able to carry a bit less than 50#'s. There's no way I would ever consider carrying more than 20#-25#'s. Stosh

The first time I went to the Boundary Waters I went with my brother and his daughter. I took along my 12 year old daughter as well. Yes, there are latrines at the campsites, but a lot of woods between sites. My daughter is the perfume, nail polish, kinda gal. Was even back then. Well, she announces the inevitable and I dig out the TP and tell her: Find a pink tree. She did just fine. "Back when I was a kid" (gotta love the old-timers here) when we went to camporees, outings, etc. there were no porta-johns or latrines. We dug our own. It was just another part of camp set up along with tents, fire pit and dining fly. I don't remember it ever being an issue. The gal I date went with me on a weekend kayak trip and when we set up camp she simply came to me and said she needed the TP because she found a pink tree. I think she had been talking with my daughter. By the way, Meyer's book is a must read for anyone venturing into the woods! Stosh

Important? Depends on the observer as well as the wearer. At Jambo I wore a 1910 uniform, another young adult with me wore a 1960's uniform, complete and correct, and people repeatedly stopped us for a picture. We always included one of their boys so we had a complete 100 year time-line. The #1 complaint was there weren't any boys in full contemporary uniforms around so they could get a good picture. Kinda strange that finding a scout in uniform would be a problem at Jambo. Stosh

Sports teams and fans Schools Medical profession Police Fire personnel Business man Gangs Scouts Military Clergy Hippies Motorcycle riders Cheese Heads Halloween participants Reenactors/Living Historians Auto Service personnel Clowns and circus personnel Cowboys Chorus Girls Marching bands/Drum Corp Belly and Hula Dancers Ethnic native dress Everyone wears clothing that identifies themselves with what's important to them. They wish to be incorporated into that grouping. Those that don't think such items are necessary to fit in will probably not last very long in the group. Those that don't feel it necessary to wear the full scout uniform are basically saying, full participation in the process is not all that important. Put clown shoes on a cowboy and see how that works for you.... Or better yet show up the first day of basic training in the army with a hula dress on... Stosh

Ebay is a great source for cheap uniform parts. I have a ton of the stuff. Just make sure you don't have boys bidding against each other. Also have a top limit for bidding. Don't worry, they'll be more down the road and eventually you'll get them for the max price you set. I generally go $10 for shirts and $15 for pants and still find them. When one can get a whole uniform for the price of shirt alone, the boys will go after it. Stosh

Overheated teflon leaves unhealthy chemicals in food. It doesn't take much to overheat the stuff when in the hands of the scouts. Fancy stainless is useless in that food sticks to it terribly and is a pain to clean up afterwards. Aluminum is the only route to go. I use aluminum only and would recommend it. It is a relatively soft metal that can take a lot of abuse. None of my mess kits actually seal off anymore. But when they do get bent, dented or whatever, I simply tap them back into shape with a mallet and I'm good to go. I don't know how many cook pots I've had to fix on the end of a log over the years. The only aluminum that gets tossed are the pieces that have worn through from years of scrubbing with SOS pads. When that happens, It's a treat to have a nice new $5 mess kit that I don't have to mess with for a while. The only other piece I use is a fry pan with long handle that is stamped steel. It works just like cast iron and doesn't bend. A bit heavier, but I don't backpack with it either. I also have a 18" aluminum griddle that goes right in the fire as well. I grew up cooking on it as a kid and have used it for the past 40 years. A bit pock marked, but works just fine after thousands of pancakes done on it. On a stove this advice might be different, but I do about 90% of my cooking on the open fire. Stosh

I use fuzz sticks all the time, but not in the method described, nor for the purpose expressed. First of all I do not use a knife to make fuzz sticks. I use an over sharpened belt axe. No, I do not use a full axe, nor do I use a 3/4 axe, nor do I use a hand axe. A belt axe is only about 1' long. Whenever I am presented with a wet wood issue, i.e. rainy day, I use fuzz sticks not as tinder or kindling, but to open up wet wood exposing the dry wood underneath. It also creates more dry surface area in which to ignite my first layer of fuzzed logs. A half dozen of these fuzzed small logs allows the tinder and kindling to ignite a soft wood like birch or pine. The axe allows me to even fuzz oak or hickory that would be impossible with a knife. Stosh

le Voyageur Sump the food particles in the fire, wipe out with grass, sand if necessary, rinse in the river, and hold over the fire to dry/sanitize. I've always trusted fire more than sanitizer chemicals. Heck, I've cooked on cast iron for years and never used soap or sanitizer on it. Shouldn't be a major leap to the rest of the items to simply do the same thing. Legal disclaimer: Do not try this at home. Where do you think I learned it... One other thing, this doesn't work with the plastic items used today. But also remember that the bacteria caught in scratches in plastic aren't addressed with hot water and/or sanitizer chemicals. This is why soft cutting boards made of plastic and wood are dangerous to use in the first place. I've always used metal and have never in 55 years had a problem with camp sanitation. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

Young leaders need a starting point in which to experiment with their fledgling skills. To think that someone can start out with taking responsibility for 12 others is quite a daunting task. Too often the "goal" of the patrol method is to have numbers at an event without ever realizing that a group of 12 boys may have other factors other than teamwork and camaraderie as their main focus. Smaller groups develop stronger bonds and when the numbers aren't there solid patrols will work to make sure their buddies show up without adult intervention, i.e. adding extras into their mix so they have good numbers. BP thought of Scouting as gangs, of which strong loyalties were a major component. For a leader to work effectively, that gang can't become unwieldy. And if one does the math, a professionally trained teacher has all they can do to handle a class of 24 and one wishes to take half that number and turn it over to a 10 year old PL just starting out? I don't think so. 6-8 is number selected because of leadership limitations for young boys. Deviations from that are mostly based in rationale other than leadership development. Stosh

I've never used the BSA method because it doesn't make much sense to me. 1) Hot/warm water/soap Soap and hot water to break up the grease and remove the last of the food particles. It doesn't need to be so hot the boys don't want to put their hands in to do a good scrubbing of the items. 2) Cold water/sanitizer Cold breaks down the soap and removes it easier. Fill a kitchen sink with suds and then try to get rid of them with hot water. Then try with cold. Cold removes soap faster than hot water. It also encourages the boys to rub the items to make sure they get all the soap off that a swish might not get if the water is hot. Then the sanitizer kills all parasites. The sanitizer works equally well whether it is hot or cold water. Now you have rinsed and sterilized the items. 3) Very hot water - heats up the items so they dry faster. With the cold at the end, it only prolongs the drying time. Using pliers and boiling water speeds up drying to just a few seconds rather than lying out drying for 10-15 minutes. If one dips an aluminum mess kit in boiling water and then fans in the air for 15-20 seconds, it is pretty much dry. The item is already sterilized with bleach so boiling doesn't do anything other than heat it up for drying faster. When my boys would put the cold at the end, I always had to go to the fire and heat it up to dry anyway. Rinsing in hot water didn't always remove all the soap and no one wanted to stick their hands in really hot water to get it completely rinsed. Stosh

I'm with Scoutfish on this one. If someone wants something bad enough and they reach deep enough inside, they can even surprise themselves with what they can accomplish. It's human spirit to overcome some pretty "impossible" barriers. And what says that the whole patrol can give it a try with crutches. It might go a long way in helping the boys understand the difficulties handicapped people face every day of their lives. 5 miles isn't really all that far and if one starts first thing in the morning, they ought to be able to finish it by sundown. It's not a race. It's an experiment in self-character awareness. Stosh

As long as one does not limit the lifestyles to sexual only, there are a lot of manias out there that need to be considered, because if a person has a propensity towards a certain lifestyle, it must be natural and we must all be tolerantly accepting of it. Remember that the next time a kleptomaniac comes and visits. Stosh

WHAT???? Have the boys make suggestions and run the show!? Bite your tongue! Stosh

The example I cited may have been a unique case in that the SM of the unit was a former state bank auditor and was currently VP of a bank in the collections department. I'm sure he knew how to work the system better than the average person. Needless to say when the deputy showed up at the lady's home with an arrest warrant, she most certainly took her check book with her. How many people just settle for "winning" their case and realize that they will never be able to collect the money anyway? I'm sure this gentleman knew that and speaking on behalf of a BSA troop, was able to push the judge for a warrant. It's always better to come with a gun to a knife fight. Stosh

We had a situation where someone stiffed the unit and the unit went to small claims court to get it's money. The person did not show so the unit had the judge issue an arrest warrant for contempt of court for not showing up. That caught the person's attention really fast. Warrants work faster than letters from lawyers. Needless to say, the unit got their money really quick. Stosh

Does that mean the new patrols are really leftovers? Once again, a change from the traditions of scouting has produced profound confusion. Stosh

Here's my take. Sept 1959 (pic 1) shows adults wearing light colored shirts. The others are darker, but pic 4 is lighter again. There's a mix of scouts and explorers in the pics. Pics 1 & 3 have OA flap patches, 2 & 4 do not. All four have mule-eared uniform pants and collars tucked in indicating at least 50's-60's. All seem to have community strips rather than council patches. Pic 1 has dark neckers the other three have light neckers. Pic 1 is either 1st or last. From what I can tell, I would guess #1 is the first and the other three are early '60's. Hair styles indicate this (longer), heavy rimmed glasses and penny loafter shoes all indicate 60's. The one pic shows a boy in a heavy striped pants, also indicating 60's. Stosh

As SM, I participated in snipe hunts all the time. All the boys needed to have permission to leave camp and thus notify an adult they would be leaving, for what purpose and when they expect to return. Not a problem. Whenever the new boys would come and ask to go on a snipe hunt, I would always say, "Sounds like fun, can I go along?" We'd go out and set ourselves up and while waiting for snipe, we'd chat. It was a good way to get to know the new boys, one-on-one. After a while they'd begin to question the task and I'd say, it was a joke being pulled by the older boys, but it was fun getting to know them as we waited out the joke. We than had a discussion on hazing and how important it was to "pay-your-dues" to become one of the group. We then discussed, the two-way smoke shifters, tornado watches, and whatever else was the tradition of the troop for the new boys. I suggested they think of something new, because the next batch of new scouts might catch on to the old traditions. I also told them that if they wanted to be a good leader, you need to go with the new scouts like I was doing so you could get to know them better like I was doing. And after all, this was also a way for the older boys to let the new guys know that if they passed they would be "part of the group". If the older boys didn't send them on their snipe hunt, it may mean they didn't care about the new boys enough to initiate them into the "club". One of the more savvy boys decided to turn the tables on the older boys and told them when he returned the snipe were all over the place, but were too fast for him. He apologized profusely he had failed in his mission. He dropped the conversation at that point. About 15 minutes later a couple of the older boys came to me and asked what it was he actually saw out there. I said I don't know, but he was running all over the woods after them. I still wonder to this day whether any of the older boys went out to check it out, but I never heard one way or the other. Of course they wouldn't admit it to anyone if they did. Another process was the teapot song when they lost their patrol flag the first, and usually only time. The whole patrol would have to sing, most of them reluctant and angry at the PL for losing it. But when the SM stepped in and help teach them the song and gestures, it became fun for all. Remember, these boys were usually Webelos Cub Scouts just a few months earlier and were used to these goofy songs. Also when the SM taught the boys, it also took a lot of the fun out of it for the older boys. Of course, I warned the new scouts that if I sang the song and did the gestures better than they did I would get the flag. Somehow I would always lose even though I would cut them no slack. One does not need to forbid the process of initiations, but use these times as an opportunity to show leadership and help the boys through the process. Eventually the SPL would take the boys on the snipe hunts because he saw how important the process was and how I as SM had handled it in the past. I kinda really liked snipe hunts. Stosh

I always ran the program under the direction that the patrols come up with their own leadership team (PL/APL). They could elect, appoint, railroad, or whatever they wished. The "term" was for as long as the patrol decided. Being a patrol-method troop, each patrol was autonomous and ran their own show. It was up to the PL/APL team to determine how that patrol was to fit in with the other patrols. Until the communication between PL's became difficult, there was no SPL facilitator needed. The highest ranking officer in the troop was the PL. I work for a multi-billion dollar, global corporation. The emphasis that is promoted every day is the fact that the worker on the line making the product for the customer does not work for the company, the company works for the worker to insure he gets the resources to get a good quality product out to the customer. In my troop, I always figured, it was the patrol members who signed on for the program and all the officers worked to provide it for them. To spend a lot of time worrying about hierarchy structures of leadership, elections, performance, politics etc. doesn't do one bit of good towards providing a quality program for the boys in the trenches. I never held election, but when the boys asked for advice on how to select a PL, I simply asked them, "Who do you want to be your leader?" (Notice it was not phrased, "Who wants to lead the patrol?") The second thing I always followed up with with the new PL's, "Unless you are planning on being a PL for the rest of your scouting career, you had better start training your replacement." After that I didn't worry about it anymore, the boys seemed to do just fine without a ton of rules and regs on how to select leadership. Stosh

And what one boy would say is the impetus to chance his life, another boy will say is hazing. Be careful, your career in Scouting is dependent on it. Stosh

I guess for me, it's an issue of who's leading, the SPL or the SM. If the SPL thinks he can run the troop with those he's picked, he should be given the chance to succeed/fail. I have never been one that promotes the US style of elections, but more of the parliamentary approach. If the PM isn't doing his job, the whole cabinet goes and you start all over. If the boys know that they are going to wear the patch and get credit for 6 months no matter what happens, there's no incentive to do well. If they need 6 months and the troop can pull the rug out from under them for doing a lousy job at any time, they'll have to toe the line and do the job. After all what better way to learn the job than by on-the-job experience. In order for anyone to succeed they all need to succeed. There's a real strong peer group dynamic necessary to make it happen. As for the older boys? Let them decide for the next 6 months what they might want to do for fun now that they aren't hampered by troop responsibilities. Just keep it as a possibility in their minds that if the troop structure breaks down, they might need to step back in and help out the new struggling leaders...as their mentors. I guess I don't see this as much a political issue in as much as a learning leadership opportunity for the younger boys. Too often the big jobs get hoarded by the older boys and it isn't until the older boys leave that the younger boys get a chance at the reins. This way the older boys are still around and the younger boys get their chance with the mentoring help of the older boys. 6 months from now, there's a possibility that the troop will have twice as many quality leaders as they do now. I don't see that as a bad thing. Stosh