Stosh

JMHawkins: You are correct but because there is emphasis on the program that promotes management under the guise of leadership that we run into problems. It's not just semantics, it's a misuse of the basic premises. Management means there is a job to be done and there are certain amount of skills that are required to accomplish those jobs/tasks. That is why the badges are for POSITIONS OF RESPONSIBILITY, not Positions of Leadership. There is where the vs. hits the fan. We think we are teaching leadership when in fact we are not. A bully with excellent management skills is nothing more than a really good bully. Like citizenship, leadership requires an awareness of people, not just a job that needs to be done. Just ask any good manager. It is easier just to do it yourself because one knows it will be done right the first time. All this means is that the manager as zero leadership skills! To a manager the job is the #1 priority. To a leader, helping people do the job is the #1 priority. as far as Radar is concerned, he was the glue that held the organization together. When he left things fell apart. That is the leadership that I am referring to. The colonel could make the order that everything was to run smoothly, but without the leadership of Radar it just wasn't going to happen. This is the fallacy of not recognizing where the real leadership lies. If a boy is a good manager, but none of the boys will listen and take orders, he is a lousy leader, plain and simple. The PL should be the glue that holds the group together. If a task needs being done by the patrol, the PL has two choices, he can say, "We have a job to do, John, you do this, Pete, you do that, Jim, you do this other thing." when instead he should be saying, "Hey, guys, we got a job to do, c'mon, follow me, let's knock this out before lunch." He gets out front and leads, he doesn't stay behind pushing others to get it done. Citizenship is that awareness that one is part of a larger group, and that if something needs to be done for the welfare of others, one steps up, takes the lead and inspires others to jump in and lend a hand. The example I always use is: A football coach does not play one down of a football game, an orchestra conductor doesn't make one bit of noise in a concert, and the driver's ed. teacher sits in the passenger seat and does not drive the car. But all of them help others be the best they can be. That's leadership! One can have the best team on the field, but if the coach doesn't show up, they are dead in the water. If the conductor doesn't show up, the concert is off regardless of how skilled the individual musicians may be and no one gets in the driver's seat and turns the key without the driver's ed teacher sitting in the passenger seat. I have had excellent older scouts "leading" in my troops, even when they do not have a POR patch on their shirt. Boys look to them for guidance, help etc. and they are ready and willing to help the newbies. Who's leading? the newbie with a POR on his shirt, or the older boy helping him learn leadership? Who's following? Who's leading? If the SM tells the SPL that the camp needs to be set up and the SPL delegates to all the PL's what their task is, and the PL directs his people accordingly, who's really running the show? So much for leadership in a smooth running troop! And what happens if none of them decide to follow the SM? Chaos! See it all the time in troops that aren't teaching leadership. Stosh

Ask yourself, who was really running the show at that MASH unit? When Radar left, why was there so much confusion and why was the loss of his leadership so obvious. The person with the least rank of all of them was in fact the thread that held them all together. Stosh

I find it difficult to accept the vs. in the title Citizenship and Leadership are one and the same. Stosh

I work for a multi-billion dollar, international corporation. We are in the process of a major cultural change in how we do business. The Management Model that has become popular over the past 40 years isn't working, never really did and the company struggled. Instead the announcement to every entity in the corporation was recently stated as: "The person on the production line does not work for this company, the company works for them." The #1 question the "management" is expected to ask in every communication to their "subordinates" is: "What can I do to help?" This concept is very foreign to the management training that our "leaders" have come to expect. Does that mean the guy making the product is running the show? Answer: Yes, he knows the most about how to do it right. Too often we overlook "natural" leadership talent because it is assumed that there isn't any on the levels lower than where we stand. We believe these kids come into scouting with no leadership talent and we have to train them. However, instead of promoting and developing leadership talent, we instruct them in management skills and then label them leaders once they master them. However, they may be good managers, but not necessarily good leaders. Simple test, look over your shoulder, if no one's following, you're not a leader. If you are SPL, have great organizational skills, can multi-task 50 things at one time and if you take the test and no one's following, then you're a good manager, but a lousy leader. If no one is following, ask yourself, why aren't they? Managers focus on tasks, leaders focus on people. A bully will always ask the question: "What's in it for me?" A manager will always ask the question: "What's in it for us?" A leader will always ask the question: "What's in it for you?" Stosh

Boys that are not natural leaders can be trained to be very good leaders. Of course this goes back to the premise that I have always put forward, the definition of leadership vs. management. I think all boys are natural leaders, but not necessarily always good managers. A bully may in fact have excellent management skills. Intimidation goes a long way on getting the job done, but it's not really leadership. If it wasn't for threats most boys wouldn't follow a bully. Leadership in any form requires sufficient skills that one can bring to the table to promote the welfare of others. If I knew someone was looking out for me, I would follow them anywhere. The inverse of this is true, if I have something that will help others, they will follow me. The degree of leadership opportunity is the only variable that has an impact on the scouting environment. The only non-leaders are those that are not given a chance to show what they can offer the group. The kid that can cook well for the patrol is in fact a leader. When he cooks everyone shows up and shows up on time when mess is called. The PL that can organize things is a great leader. An APL that truly assists the PL is a true leader. He may not be able to lead himself, but he helps the PL do a better job than he could have done on his own. Once members of the patrols realize that each of the boys can be reliable on what they have to offer, then true teamwork is possible. The bully that says you do this, next guy does that, and the third guy do something else.... OR ELSE! Will get the job done, but how much more effective the "followers" would be if they took lead on a necessary job needing to be done. John, you're the best cook, would you take lead on grubmaster this weekend? Is John a leader or just best cook, or both???? Naturally all the boys are good at something. A good PL will seek to find what those skills are and encourage them for the welfare of the group. Natural leaders have good skills, but also a strong natural desire to practice those skills! If Tommy can't cook, has no interest in being a cook, hates to cook, why would a good PL ever make him grubmaster for the weekend? As a leader, I would do everything I could to make sure Tommy was never on the patrol duty roster as cook! However, I would find out what Tommy likes to do and wants to work at getting better at doing and make sure every opportunity for him is available on the duty roster to do it. As mentioned on the meek, reserved boy that likes to organize things... why would anyone not want him to take the lead on the QM job? Yes, not every boy has management skills, but they are all natural leaders! They may need to be educated in management/organizational skills, but when it comes to leadership, just providing opportunities to release them in usually enough to have them develop on their own. Stosh

If I'm going to do the cooking, I'm planning the menu, cooking and that's it. I would plan meals the boys don't like and if they want something better, they can do the planning. (like a whole weekend without bacon!) I would burn a couple of meals and if they didn't like it, then then can do the cooking next time. I love being passive-aggressive. If boys didn't show because they had to cook, then my other boys that did show up would learn how to cook for a smaller group and do just fine. As a scout I learned to cook using a mess kit. When my patrol buddies couldn't make it to an event, I didn't starve. It's a useful skill to learn. Stosh

Beavah, Twocubs is correct, it's not going to prevent abuse, but it does go a long way of keeping it off my watch. I cannot be held responsible for others and their vigilance, but I can control my own. That's why everyone needs YPT, not just a few in each unit. It also doesn't mean I am absolved of any responsibility, but if all my adults are trained, there are more watchful eyes keeping tabs on it as well. The greater the awareness the less likely something will slip through the cracks. If someone in a unit states there is no youth abuse in our troop, doesn't mean the potential for such abuse wasn't averted through the training. Like drivers' education, how many lives has that saved? How many accidents were prevented? There is no way that can be measured. If driving accidents go down does that mean there's a direct correlation between drivers' education and no training? Maybe, maybe not. One will never know. How many burglaries are prevented each year because of security lights? Again one can't measure something that does not happen. Maybe with scouting YPT the abuse has gone over to the schools, civic organization or churches, but when the boys are in scouting, with the training, the amount of occurrences of abuse drop. Is it because of training? or maybe just a greater awareness in general of the problem. Either way, I don't care as long as the boys are safer today than they were yesterday. Stosh

I was aware of this problem 40 years ago and didn't need YP training to figure it out. It was just plain common sense many moons ago. Now YP has formalized it for those who don't have common sense. Remember, it's a two-edged sword. Yes, it protects the youth, but it does wonders protecting adults from vindictive children as well. As a professional counselor, it always bothered female parishioners that as pastor I always left the door open to my office when they were in counseling. They sometimes felt uncomfortable about confidentiality. Well, that was nothing I felt about getting dragged into court by a disgruntled parishioner who yelled "Wolf". If they felt that uncomfortable about it, I always recommended and provided a list of female counselors. As one who has 40+ years of working with kids in private, religious, and scouting environments, I've never had a problem. Have the police showed up at my door with accusations? Yep, but a second, third and fourth adult witnesses have always been a welcomed support system for the innocent. Being overly vigilant isn't always a bad idea. Stosh

When I was a Web DL, I used the time to do an orientation to Boy Scouts as an underlying theme to the Cub program. When we went camping we did a mini-camporee where the boys did a learning session on how to build a good fire and burn a string. They did a medical "station", and used their skills learned in the pins to get oriented to the BSA troop ideals. Some of the "camporee" ideas that did not directly translate into the Cub program were the extra special fun challenges like tying knots. Did they compete? No, but they learned how to compete. They learned what to expect once they crossed over. Communications, traveler, etc. pins were treated like mini-merit badges, etc. They contacted one of the other adults connected to the Pack who came in and did the pin like what would happen with a MB. Each activity the boys did was to give them an idea what Boy Scouts was going to be doing. On the campouts they planned their own meals, as a group went shopping for the best prices, etc. Once they got to the campout they were actively involved with food prep with the adults. Did they do the cooking? Nope, but they had an idea of what to expect. They pitched tents with the help of the adults until they could do it themselves. When they did their pins, it was pointed out the T-FC requirement that was similar so that when it came time to advance in Boy Scouts, they were oriented, had an idea of what to expect. Did they master the skill? Nope, not until they were Boy Scouts but they had some idea of what to expect. When we visited the local BSA troops (a requirement) we learned what they did for flags, and adopted the format for the den opening/closings. It was kind of selecting the best of both worlds. Learning BSA skills without the demands of advancement pressures. I kept reminding the boys they didn't need to learn this stuff for advancement, so we'll just do it to have some fun. Once the boys crossed-over, they were semi-proficient and confident enough to attack their advancement right from the get-go. The boys crossed over in February and by the time summer camp rolled around, they were either FC scouts or really close and chomping at the bit to get to summer camp. Stosh

Proof is the scientific evidence that certain issues can be tested and given exactly the same circumstances will produce the same results. If I can drop a pencil and it always falls to the floor and you try it and it produces the same results it's called the Law of Gravity. It's provable by repeatable testing. However, if it cannot be proven with evidence, then it stays a theory. We believe there is a "link" between apes and man, however, there is no scientific evidence that says we evolved from them. The evidence connecting the two is not there. Just because two things appear to be similar does not mean they are. Now if I drop a pencil and it does not fall to the floor, there can be a very good reason for it. Scientific, too. If I'm on the international space station, the scientific laws that apply on earth do not apply elsewhere, but there is valid provable evidence that can support this. As a matter of fact. If I simply release a pencil, it will stay hovering without "falling" anywhere in a zero-gravity environment. Science can prove thus where gravity and no gravity exists. No "theory" needed because it is provable. And as one final thought, if I release a pencil while standing on earth and it does not fall to the floor, I might be tempted to call it a miracle, or something that doesn't seem to fit the scientific patterns I am accustomed to. Without further experimentation to seek proof, I guess I have to accept miracle. Is that an issue of faith? Heck no, my faith in the scientific world would have had be betting 100% on the pencil hitting the floor. By the way, modern medicine is based on scientific results, quackery is not. Why take medicine if it hasn't been proven to work? It doesn't work for everyone the same? Yep, nobody is the same so with so many variables, an exact replication of a certain medicine is not able to be guaranteed 100%. Stosh

Then there's speculative science that has to be accepted as faith, i.e. the Theory of Relativity, Theory of Evolution, etc. Theories are speculative scientific guesses. We're pretty sure, but we can't prove it. Yet as each day passes, some of these theories do come under increasing suspicion as to their validity. Someday they may be proven, but until then one has to assume a varying degree of "faith" as to their reliability. Until such time as they are proven, they remain in the realm of myth, i.e. traditional story of acceptance. Stosh

Cast iron rusts so it is treated in one of two ways to keep it looking good on the shelves to sell. 1) Use an petroleum based oil to keep it from rusting. This oil must be removed with soap and water before seasoning. Heating these treated pans for a while does nothing to change the composition of the oil. 2) Use a food based oil to keep it from rusting. This is also known as pre-seasoned. Heating with food based oils will turn the oil into a varnish and will actually feel more dry to the touch while retaining it's waterproofing properties. Both oils can be removed and are added as the last step before putting on the shelves. Is pre-seasoned cast iron good enough? Sure, it doesn't rust, that's the only thing seasoning does. No one wants a rusty dutch oven in when it comes time to cook. Soap and water will remove petroleum oils, but baked on food based oils will need to be burned off. This can be easily done in any self-cleaning oven. Too many people over-think cast iron. It is not that difficult. You do not need to do a batch of deep-fries or donuts to season a dutch oven. You do not need to bake it for two days at X-degrees to get it seasoned. All you need do is put on some oil/grease and heat it up so it turns into a varnish layer and won't come off on your clothes as easily. I use cast iron every day and it's the best stuff out there for cooking. Weight is the only drawback. I never use soap and if there is food residue stuck to the pan after cooking, it's because you used too hot of a heat. My pans are like Teflon! Nothing sticks and no burner gets turned higher than medium. If one is going to store their cast iron for an extended period of time, the food based oils will go rancid! Some quicker than others. Instead of using oil on these pieces use bees wax. It does the job and never goes rancid. A pan sealed in wax will withstand any and all moisture and never rusts. Stosh

Gee, a guy goes off for a while and when he comes back, the thread has gotten so far off track it makes no sense anymore. Somehow a few non-factual traditional stories, i.e. myths, about Christmas have turned into a slam by saying all religions are myths. Lovely Christmas sentiments I must say. So, let's begin, those that have anti-religious beliefs, then they will conclude everything the other person says about religion is myth. Like no one could figure this out? By the way, I find just as many myths surrounding atheists as I do those who believe in a God. Once one understands this, then the whole discussion falls apart. 1) I believe in Allah, everyone else's beliefs are myths. 2) I believe on Yahweh, everyone else's beliefs are myths. 3) I believe in God, everyone else's beliefs are myths. 4) I believe there is no God, everyone else's beliefs are myths. The myth that atheists hide behind is that they claim they don't believe, but in fact they do, believe there is no God and thus feel they can force their beliefs on others just like they detest from the other believers that are different than them. Myth is a human tradition story that is clearly made up, i.e. Santa Claus came from a poem. Everything surrounding Santa that was not in the poem is mythically added to the original story. After all small children hold Santa in a strong belief system that most adults don't buy into. Santa does work well for the atheist because they can jump in on the Christmas holiday without being a Christian. Stosh

Which of the stories being discussed is the culprit for being disrespectful for. I'm just not seeing it. "Jerusalem lies at an altitude of about 700 metres above sea level atop the central range of hills that forms the geological backbone of the Holy Land. It is influenced by winds from the West (that bring cool sea breezes in summer and rain in winter) and winds from the East(that moderate winter temperatures but can make summer days hot and dry). The Jerusalem winter starts around December and lasts until February, with rain and cold winds, and an occasional snowfall. Spring is the best time of year to visit, from March to April/May. The landscape around the city is full of wild flowers. Rainfall lessens. Summer( June to September)dry with NO rain. It can be warm, even hot, so take a hat, sunglasses and water with you. The Autumn (Fall to Americans!) in October-November is still warm with changeable weather. Nights begin to get cool." According to this bit of info from the tourist industry, the last place one would want to be is out in the cold, windy, occasional snow time of the year camping out with the sheep. Once the spring returned and the vegetation began to return, the shepherds would head up to the high country for the fresh meadows. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

Myth 1. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth. 2. Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth. 2. A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal: a star whose fame turned her into a myth; the pioneer myth of suburbia. 3. A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology. 4. A fictitious story, person, or thing: "German artillery superiority on the Western Front was a myth" (Leon Wolff). I guess as a Christian I'm not all that upset with the many myths surrounding my religion. There are a lot of traditions that have no basis in the teachings of the religion. As far as Christmas is concerned there are a lot of traditional stories surrounding the believe that have no basis in the Scriptures. By definition of the word myth, these traditional stories are thus myth. It is truly a myth that angels are female and have wings. In all my life I have never seen an angel without wings anywhere. Wings are what makes them an angel and yet scripture never describes God's angels as having wings. To point this out is not disrespecting a person's religion, just pointing out the differences between the actual writings and what people have traditionally come to think is correct. As a scripturalist rather than a traditionalist, I have no problem with people believing what they wish, but if a question is asked, I will give a scriptural answer. If one were to carry the discussion a step further, telling children about Santa Claus is perpetuating a myth and then telling them it's not true is a major disrespect on their beliefs. We perpetuate this process over and over again and somehow feel this is okay. I don't happen to be one of them. But if the occasion calls for it, I have donned the red suit and handed out presents with a hearty "Ho, ho, ho" without batting an eye. All religions have myths (i.e. traditions) that are really part of them. Questioning them and discussing them is not being disrespectful. Not being honest in the first place, may very well be. Stosh

Novice, That's the point of the myth. You are totally correct, the Davidic lineage of Jesus is through Joseph, that's why Joseph had to go to Bethlehem, the city of HIS lineage, the City of David, to enroll in the census, but Christians are adamant about Jesus' father being God, not Joseph. Can't have it both ways. As far as the dates of Easter, even the Christians can't agree on it. Passover is calculated on the Hebrew calendar which is lunar based. Christians use the Passover target for setting Easter because of the Last Supper being the Passover Seder meal. For Christians, Easter couldn't rely on the actual lunar cycles, didn't want to use the Hebrew calendar and so they said the first Sunday after the vernal equinox based on the ecclesiastical calendar set up by the church which is also lunar based. Of course that all depends on whether one is using the church calendar based on Gregorian or Julian calendars. And whether Thursday this year is really a Monday! If Christians can't figure out Easter (the most holy of days during the year) what makes one think they can pull off Christmas at the right time? The point being made is that these religious holidays are established by what people say they are and not really the true anniversary of what they celebrate. After all the church says Christ was born on Christmas Day, they don't say Christ was born on December 25th. As far as I can tell the Bible only says Jesus was born and leaves it at that. I'm thinking that by your post and the fact that you're lighting candles this time of year you might be Jewish. If that be the case may the Light you light at this time be of great blessing for you and your family throughout the year. If not, Merry Christmas to you and your family. Stosh

Merlyn_LeRoy, Are you trying to say that Santa Claus was one of the two objects that flew into one of the two towers? Stosh Sorry, I hadda ask.

Jay K Yes, shepherd tend to their flocks year around. However, they would not have taken them up into the mountainous regions to feed on the meadows and stay out overnight with them in the winter. This way it preserved the lowlands for the wintertime and gave the pastures a chance to recover. You can't keep grazing sheep in the same spot without destroying the grazing land. Just ask a Cowboy why the sheep herders were not welcomed on the Great Plains. Cattle will graze only so far on a plant and it will recover seasonally. Sheep graze right to the ground, completely destroying the vegetation. Anyway, Jerusalem is 32 miles from the Mediterranean Sea and 2577' above sea level. It sits on a very high mountain. Bethlehem is 6 miles from Jerusalem in this mountainous region and would not have had sheep in the winter grazing with the shepherds in the winter time. This migratory pattern of shepherds with permanent homes in the lowlands taking their sheep higher into the mountains for fresh grazing, thus living out in the open with them, is well documented. Most Biblical scholars would agree that the time of Jesus' actual birth was probably around April or May. This is why Luke was adamant about relaying the part where the shepherds were out in their fields by night. If it was winter, they would have been home in bed. Because of the mountainous region of Bethlehem, there would not have had any shepherds up in the area at that time of the year. It's common knowledge that the observance of Christmas was moved to counter the solstice practices that competed with it in the earlier years. As a further note on the comment about prophesy setting the date, that is false. There is no prophesy that states that. One also has to take into consideration that the Hebrew Calendar is lunar based, not solar based. The Romans/Greeks use a 10 month solar calendar which Julius Caesar added a month (July) and not to be outdone Agustus Caesar added another (August). This is why September (Sept = 7) is the 9th month, October (Oct = 8), etc. up to December (Dec = 10). Regardless of which calendar one uses, the solstices and equinoxes were well known to everyone. That's why the winter solstice, the longest night was observed as a day dedicated to light. It is a good choice for putting Christmas around that day, the day the Light of the World appeared among humankind. This is why Passover in the Hebrew calendar is marked as a Thursday after a certain lunar cycle and thus Good Friday/Easter jump all over the solar calendar. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)(This message has been edited by jblake47)

Taking one's hat off for the national anthem is not federal law. It is included in the US Flag Code as the recommended way to show respect for the flag, not the national anthem. People have the freedom to not show respect for the flag, they can even burn it to show such disrespect. However, there are no penalties in the Code for such actions. Stosh

Why is this discussion limited to only teenaged boys? I see just as many if not more adults wearing hats in restaurants than kids. Stosh

Beyond???? I have set around the campfire sewing my torn pants, putting a button back on, etc. I have washed my clothes in the field/on a trek. I have dried out my clothes over a fire in the winter. I have cooked outside over an open fire thousands of meals. Since when are any of these things beyond Scoutcraft? It's just that due to the continuing rollback of Scoutcraft skills, they are being left out. I am willing to bet that I use my needle and thread far more often than I do my first aid kit. I can also assure everyone that I use needle and thread far more often than I use lashing skills. Can a scout survive (be prepared for) any and all circumstances on his own in the field for a week? If not, he does not have sufficient Scoutcraft skills. BP set up Scouting under the principles of the military scout of his era. The small patrol of men were to go out and live independently of the supplies of the army for an extended period of time without any support. The soldier needed skill and resourcefulness to accomplish this. If one could not do that, they were not able to be a scout. If that independent leadership/survival-skills process no longer holds true, we need to change the name of the organization to say maybe "Boy Car Campers with Adult Supervision of America." Stosh

I'm with Kudu on this one. SPL calls his PL's together where and when he wants to conduct the business he feels is necessary. No adults need be present they have no function or role in the process. The SPL supports the function of the PL's. The patrols are autonomous and function independently of each other. When there is need for inter-patrol communication, the SPL pulls together the PLC so the PL's can work things out together mentored by the SPL. Stosh

Naaah, Even before that, humans were sitting around eating raw meat and berries thinking, "We ought to do something for fun." That's when it really started. Stosh

LOL! I don't have any problem with people creating traditions around a holiday, i.e. trees, songs, nativity scenes, date of the event, Santa and elves, or anything else. I just don't see much point in dying in the ditch over it. The message itself is sufficient for me and that's what I rely in and that's worth keeping in the season. My kids never grew up believing in Santa Claus. When my eldest daughter went to the mall with us she wanted to get a picture with Santa. No problem. While on his knee he asked her what she wanted Santa to bring (rather than what do you want for Christmas). At age 5 she spelled it all out for him. Santa is the spirit of giving for the holiday. At home she's Santa for her mom, dad, and younger brother and she was out there at the mall looking for things to put in their stockings. She then thanked the man for helping out with that spirit of giving. After she got off his knee, he "took a break" and came to visit with my wife and I. I explained the stockings get hung on St. Nick's Day (Dec 6) and stay up until the 12th Day of Christmas (Jan 6). During that time anyone can be Santa in our family. "Santa" laughed and said he was in the wrong business, but that he was going to do that with his family, too. My children were all cautioned in making sure other kids got a chance to believe and that part of Christmas giving was giving others a chance to believe if their traditions called for it. They never interfered in the traditions of others. It's a practice we all continue to this day. That "tradition" still continues in my family and from 12/6 - 1/5 I can expect a little something for my stocking coming in the mail now that my kids live far away. Traditions are important, it's just not that everyone's traditions are always the same. Have a great Christmas and may what we hope and believe in be something special for you this season. Angels are around us all the time. None of them have wings. Stosh (aka, Grinch)

1) The Magi were never at the manger in Bethlehem, but arrived about 2 years later at the home of Mary and Joseph. 2) Genealogists will have a nightmare trying to link Jesus to the House of David because Joseph was the descendent of David. Mary was from the House of Levi, i.e. her kinsman Elizabeth, mother of John the Baptist was a Levite. 3) If the Bethlehem star was in the East, why did the Magi travel west. 4) The Magi were not kings, they were astrologists/scholars, and there is no record of how many of them there were, they only brought 3 different types of gifts. 5) The shepherd if Israel would not have been in the fields with their flocks of sheep by night in December. They took the sheep out into the alpine fields and stayed out with them only in the summer months. 6) St. Nicholas day is December 6th. 7) Ephiphany (when the Magi showed up) is January 6th. 8) Mark may not have a nativity story, but originally there was no resurrection story either. Mark was the first to write of the 4 Gospel writers. 9) There was no mention of any donkey for Mary in the Gospel narratives. 10) Angels don't have wings and they were always male. Stosh