Stosh

I've worked with youth in more than just Scouting situations and regardless of the group, the dynamics are all the same. The issue is not whether one is able to handle the situation on their own, but whether one can discern when the situation is within certain boundaries and/or rules that need addressing. I might be able to "handle" the situation on my own, but I have 40+ years of working with kids, ranging from institutionalized, to at-risk, to "normal". Can the same be said for the rookie SM who's out with his boys for his first summer camp? To think it's the SM's job to "handle" things is not an option. My BSA training and expectations do not as well. Is the boy doing something illegal? Call the authorities because if one doesn't they can be held accountable or complicit. YP issues have always revolved around such "cover-ups" and a simple notification would have exonerated a lot of people along the way. I have found over the years that institutional juveniles are far less likely to pull something because they know they can't get away with it. They have learned the hard way what the limits are. At-risk kids know the consequences and will not push the issue when it comes to shove time. Usually they don't ever want to find out what "or else" really means. But the "normal" kids are still trying to figure out the limits and will push harder than any of the others. Complicit parents will often unfortunately protect the problem child. Unless one wants to get embroiled in the middle of these legal morasses, it's better to report it to everyone at the same time and be done with it. I had two boys (brothers) going at it in their tent at summer camp. Both boys had knives and were pretty much intent on using them. I was camp-master and went in and from a distance was able to quell the problem and disarm both boys. They were from out of council. I notified the camp, the authorities and parents and dumped the whole thing in their laps. It was not my business to resolve the issue. No lawyer ever contacted me about what happened and I have no idea of whatever happened to them, but it was not my problem after I stabilized the situation. The last thing I want to do is sit in a court of law and try to explain to the judge why I knew about a boy's bag of recreational pot he had last summer at camp and did nothing about it except "talk" to him. While it is sometimes "understood" that driving 71 mph in a 65 mph zone will not catch the attention of a speed-trap, in a court of law, 66 mph in a 65 mph zone IS speeding, period. Pay the fine and have a good day. As a scout leader, one is not called upon to be the judge of anything. Camp staff are not either, nor are local law enforcement officers for that matter. They only handle the situation and turn the handling of consequences to those who are in position to do so. Otherwise one opens themselves up to all kinds of legal litigation. It's a rather harsh response to this issue, but the risks some are willing to take are not the same risks I am willing to take. Maybe that's why I have been around 40+ years working with youth. I lay down the rules at the beginning and simply state if anyone steps over these limits, an "or else" will occur. In working with "normal" kids in church youth groups and BSA units, I have never had one of my own youth ever try to figure out what "or else" meant. Stosh

If there is a balance somewhere between boy-led and adult-led, then I'm the last person that knows where that is. I was removed as SM from my last troop because I would have answered yes to pretty much all of the questions Fred poses. The #1 complaint was that I expected too much leadership out of the boys. Everything was planned in detail by the boys, the finances, the dates, etc. everything. Sure the adults kept an eye on it in case things got out of hand, but for the most part it didn't. They planned all the campouts, including summer camp, did all the finances, signed up for MB's, etc. Scribe kept record of attendance and gave to the adult to load into TroopMaster. He also kept track of dues, just to learn the process of regular income, expenses. Dues were spent on whatever the boys wanted, the only reason dues were expected was for experience for the scribe. Lots of pizza parties. Advancement was all handled by the boys including such things as summer camp pre-test of swimming, etc. and making sure advancement on such things was recorded. Quartermaster would submit lists of needed equipment to the CC for approval of purchase. Our "Popcorn Colonel" was one of the boys that wanted to take on the project. All logistics were handled by him and those who were working with him as they were needed. Leadership was passed around to the different patrols/leaders. If flyer came out for the spring camporee, I handed it to the SPL and he asked if anyone wanted to take lead on the project. If no one did, it was tossed in the garbage. If someone needed service project hours for advancement, a PL would report to the PLC a need and let them know they would be scheduling one and if anyone else wanted in on it for hours to see him. (The only time I ever "handed a flyer" to the SPL would have been in the case where the SPL and the ASPL were unable to attend the district roundtable and get one themselves. Since I was removed, the parents now do all the planning and the boys are all off the hook. The balance was tipped back to where I started 3 years previously. Stosh

I ran with an ambulance crew for 15 years and the whole time the use of "tourniquets" was an option. It never "went away". Controlled use of tourniquets and tourniquet devices has always been played out in modern medicine. Air splints over open wounds, blood pressure cuffs applied just enough to slow if not stop circulation to the limb as necessary, etc. have always been in use. Triage: if it's a choice between losing the limb or losing the life, go with the limb. Stosh

The whole purpose of a uniform is to present oneself as one-form, or all look alike. To say that only the shirt is uniform and the rest is not is really not a uniform. Uniforms are intended to produce a common identity or image as well. A police uniform is different than that of the medical scrubs, a scout uniform is different than say that of an auto mechanic or religious clergy. Along with identity and image, it also marks one as somewhat "professional" or unique from the rest of society. It is intended in many cases to avoid having to produce identity in certain situations. At a car accident for example, the uniforms distinguish the various personnel as police, medical and fire fighter without the need of having to produce identification of duties. A partial uniform adds confusion and even suspicion. If a police officer is not in full uniform, a sense of: is that person for real or not, comes to mind. If watching a movie or TV show one sees a camper in a uniform of sorts, one can easily recognize whether it is BSA or some other kind of youth camper program. However if the person is in full BSA uniform one knows for sure. The BSA does allow for a certain amount of identification beyond the scout uniform. For example, in my former troop, one patrol of boys all wore the expedition hat with a green/tan hat cord. The PL had a yellow hat cord and the APL had a sky blue hat cord. In a sea of scouts, the expedition hat was rather unique, but with the hat cord I could tell where my boys were and where their leaders were at all times. Neckers do the same for distinguishing the various troops that choose to do so. At a jamboree, camporee or other large gathering of scouts, it's easy to tell who was who. Uniforms in scouting are not necessary, but they do go a long way to make life easier. If the leadership of a troop thinks it is okay with getting by with a partial uniform, so be it, but if one wishes to produce the image of a complete scout, a complete uniform says it all. Ever wonder why Eagle Scouts at EBOR in partial uniform look "out of place" or give the image of just getting by? I had one boy show up in a patched, worn, stained, but carefully laundered and ironed uniform for EBOR. When questioned about it by the board, he simply said it had been to too many outings over the years to stand up to the abuse. They went on to the next question without batting an eye. Pretty hard to argue with Scout Pride. Stosh

qwazse, my comments were not directed at anyone, just comments from what I saw floating through the thread. It's not an issue of uniforms per se for me. It's the idea of how uniforms are used as a method. Do they promote or hinder the processes in the troop? Who enforces the "rules" one has about uniforms? As you mentioned in your comment, when YOU take out the inspection sheet... My point on boy-led would be, why would an adult be pulling out an inspection sheet in the first place? Shouldn't the boys be doing the inspections? Are the adults exempt from boy-led inspections? The problem lies not in the uniform, but how all the dynamics surround the uniform play themselves out. I hear people banter around "Class-B's". There is no such thing in scouting, except what people make up about it. If they think bluejeans and Scouting t-shirt is okay clothing for the day, just say that. Don't make it out to be some kind of official anything. It's scout oriented clothing, but not any sort of uniform. A little honesty goes a long way and when one is using the uniform method to help the boys build a little espirt-de-corps or they absolutely hate wearing the uniform. Why not just ban the uniform? They aren't required for Scouting in the first place. Too much hypocrisy floats around under the disguise of wisdom. Let the boys decide. If you want to wear the uniform, wear it right. If not, make something up, but be sure to call it "something made up" and not a Boy Scout uniform. I met a group of Canadian Scouts up in Calgary. The only thing that identified them as Scouts was they all were wearing yellow, unmarked neckerchiefs. I asked if they were scouts and they said yes. Even with just a necker, one could suspect they were Scouts, but they said this was not any kind of uniform, they just wore the neckers so they could keep track of everyone in the group while in the crowd. If all one wishes to do is be identifiable as a scout, just wear a necker, or maybe just a scout hat or t-shirt. Not a problem. Just don't try and fool anyone that it's any kind of uniform. Nobody is fooled. Stosh

Uniform clothing back in the 50's normally had removable buttons because for the most part they were worn once and then laundered. This means that all cotton uniforms needed to be pressed. "Mangles" were large ironing equipment for home use that allowed quick ironing of such items. They rolled the clothes against a hot plate. My father was a milkman and needed 5-6 uniforms laundered each week, Mom had a mangle in which she would iron them rather quickly. My sister had 5 kids and cheap clothing that she used a mangle on to iron cotton clothing for a large laundry day. With the onset of cotton/blends, permanent press, etc. workplace uniform contract cleaning, the need isn't there any more. Now we've gone back to hand irons - if irons at all. Of course if one had 5-6 uniforms for work, one only needed 1-2 sets of buttons and thus saved the cost of special brass buttons which during WWII were difficult to get. When I worked as a bus boy in a restaurant I had two uniforms which had removable buttons. Wore one, laundered the other every day. Needed only one set of buttons. This was in the late 1960's Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

If the troop is boy-led and full-uniform, if an adult shows up with a lacking uniform, the boys have a right to be a little snarky. If I show up for work in inappropriate clothing my boss will send me home. If the boys are truly running the show, should they not have the right to send an ASM home to get properly attired for the event? Gotta love the hypocrisy of a lot of the troops out there. "Don't do as I do, do as I say!" Lead by example! Sorry, I'm with the boys on this one. Stosh

Only the youth pants had the red piping. The green ties are available on EBay. Bolo's weren't a big option, don't remember anyone wearing them back then. The adults normally wore the tie if any neckwear was used. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

I have a whole series of uniforms and do presentations on it. Normally I come dressed in the 1910 uniform, demonstrate the 1960's and both tan w/red and w/green current uniforms. The uniform that gets the most attention is the 1960's and boys have gone on to Ebay and gotten them to wear. The boys have no problem with the red trimmed mule-eared pockets and like wearing those pants over the new ones. And heaven only knows why but the garrison cap is also a big attention getter. Stosh

I can see a definite separation between painting as routine maintenance, unless one is in the process of restoration. Is the painting being done on a on-going already used building/project, or is the building/project one that brings it back into use? It's not just painting that fits this category. A trail through the woods needs the occasional trim to keep it in passable condition, but if it's overgrown, and no longer useable and an Eagle candidate wants to restore it back into useable condition, that's a whole different story. Just my 2-cents worth. Stosh

Kinda reminds me of the logic behind Alaska's "bridge-to-nowhere". Stosh

Or the young lad who puts on a civil war uniform as a Venturing Scout, works his butt off learning the drill and the responsibilities of the hobby only to progress through the ranks to where he actually lead a company of reenactors (not the just the Venturing Crew) at a national event. It's a position earned and he knew it. Does that translate into the real world? Yep, he was selected as squad leader half way through his ROTC basic training. He's well on his way. Was it reeacting? Was it Scouting? Was it just the fact that this learned at an early age what real leadership was all about? Jury is still out. Stosh

Piece of cake! The Scoutmaster who drinks his coffee in the red coffee cup and has a daughter in Girl Scouts because only a Scoutmaster who sleeps in a Kelty backpacking tent would camp anywhere else other than his back yard. It was a trick question.... Stosh

I use Firefox, that's maybe the problem. I haven't used IE for years. Stosh

I could never remember if it was 6 weeks of winter if he saw his shadow or 6 weeks of winter if he didn't see his shadow. Well, one day I did the math. Feb 2 -> 3/22 (Spring Equinox, 3/20 in 2012) is 7 weeks, so what we're debating here is the difference of less than one week. Up here in the "frozen tundra" area, that week is so totally irrelevant none of us really worry about it. We've had 2' of snow in April, but the calendar says it's SPRING! Go figure. Stosh (This message has been edited by jblake47)

First of all I do believe that alcohol has a lower BTU rating than that of white gas at about 50% which means one has to carry twice the alcohol to produce the same amount of heat as white gas. Maybe someone out there can confirm or refute that statement. Secondly of all, I used to have a manufactured alcohol stove that I wouldn't trust in the hands of anyone, including myself. Imaging a tin cup with the lip that curls in about 1/4" In the lip are a series of holes that hold the flame, meaning the lip heats up, causes the evaporation, and vaporizes at the holes which are then combusted into flame. The opening of the cup is wide open and the grate for the stove is connected to the cup. If this lit stove ever tips over, there's going to be about 8 oz. of open alcohol spilling all over the place. Not my idea of an exciting time, but it surely would be exciting. I used it once and go so nervous I never used it again. I have no idea what ever happened to that stove, and I don't care. If manufactured stoves can be that dangerous DIY stoves would scare me even more. I have always used paraffin for my DIY stoves and they work just fine with no danger of spillage. Stosh

As a computer programmer -- the ',' is either a smiley face with it's tongue sticking out or the error message is an undocumented feature of the update program. I hope this helps. Stosh I went into my profile and changed my email. When I hit the continue -> button the screen flickered but didn't continue. I went back in and the email was changed. So I changed it back and when I hit the continue -> button, same flicker but no new screen. Went back in and the email had changed back. Looks like they may be working on it, but they haven't figured it out and they aren't doing much for testing it before going into live usage. Maybe wait a bit or get an email off to one of the monitors. It obviously isn't doing what it is supposed to be doing. I'm thinking it's option #1 from above. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

In my last unit I had an ASM who was never in full uniform. I set the standard and expected the boys to be in full uniform. Earned a reputation in the council as the only full-uniformed troop. I was removed and the ASM took over. The first thing the boys wanted to do was drop the full uniform requirement. Former ASM, now SM, said no. That really opened up a hornet's nest. Stosh

I quadrupled the number of boys in my troop when I took it over. Because I am so good? Heck no, because I believed it was possible. 1) Assess the problem correctly and set a goal way beyond what you think you are capable of doing. You may not reach the goal, but you will be far further down the road than if you set your goal too low. 2) Figure out what works and repeat it, if it doesn't dump it immediately. 3) Expect great things from the boys and quit tying to do it yourself. 4) Remember, no boy in the troop wants to do recruiting 24/7. He signed on for a program, make sure he gets it. Others will follow when he tells his buddies all the things he's doing. 5) No equipment for the new guys? Heck, with 4 times as many boys, you have 4 times the potential in fund-raising efforts. 5) Success feeds on itself, but so does failure. "Boys, we've got a problem, no boys want to be part of the troop." Yeah, that's a great recruiting start! "Boys, we have a good program, what should we do to make it better and more attractive to others who might want to get involved?" No one wants to be on a losing team. Stosh

When I was in school, I picked up a work-study job working for the local BSA council. The DE had me go after establishing Explorer posts for the council (Back in the day before Venturing). Well, after 2 years I had started 43 Explorer posts, and carrying the council's quotas for both years. We had enough people to cover the quota shortages in both Cub and Boy Scouts. I did this working 20 hours a week. Those who say Venturing isn't important to a council just hasn't put any effort into it. As an unwanted step-child, it often gets relegated off to an individual or two who simply hasn't the volunteer time to do it right. If the councils took Venturing seriously, it is a good program. Until they do, it'll continue to languish on the vine. Stosh

My reaction is always the same: "Sorry you feel that way." and then walk away. You have acknowledged that their comment was heard and understood, but you have no interest in participating in any discussion that involves that level of hate. You will never change that person's mind, and it is a total waste of time to try. There are more important things to be doing with my time. As a secondary affect of this approach, these people wish to engage in a dialog and drag you down to their level. When that happens, it leaves them pretty much empty handed. Oh, and by the way, remember as you walk away, you will be called every negative thing that person can try and come up with to try and get a rise out of you. Don't play their game, take the higher road. Stosh

I would think a well trained APL would be assisting the PL in his duties. A patrol QM might be a better solution. There's nothing in the regs that says each patrol can't have a QM. Stosh

Kudu, That is so true. Some of my best leaders have been the charismatic trouble makers that realize they get more attention doing it right than causing trouble. Stosh

A natural born leader vs. a great leader. A natural born leader is one who has for the majority of his life been aware of others around him and has found it easy to get along, help out, and give suggestions and help when needed. A great leader may be someone who hasn't always been as concerned with the needs of others but realizes that if he's going to be able to lead, he had better get onboard with that dynamic. Some people naturally are focused more on themselves and thus don't make good leaders, but there are those who naturally seek to please, and do what it takes to help out others and care for others. Those are the ones that are naturally adapted/born to such leadership. I have always said, give me a boy that cares about others and with taught great organizational skills, I will teach him to be a great leader. Give me a boy that cares only about himself and with taught great organizational skills, I'll teach him to be a great bully. Leadership is more of a caring attitude than it is any set of management skills. My first and only "training" I ever have done with my PL's in terms of leadership is summed up in the phrase: "Take care of your boys". Every PL that has taken that to heart has never had a problem with disciple in his patrol. When does leadership training formally start? The buddy system. Take care of someone other than just yourself. If the only person someone is concerned about is themselves, they will never be a leader of any sort. Start small, take care of your buddy (husband), and grow into taking care of a small group (PL/Father), take care of others in general (SPL/Citizenship). I have seen it work over and over again. If this doesn't make sense in the general sense of word, look at the military. One has the foot soldier. The first officer is the corporal who takes care of a squad of people, usually about 8-10 soldiers (interestingly, PL's when scouting first started out were nicknamed corporals). Small numbers of corporals were organized under sergeants, sergeants under lieutenants, lieutenants under captains, etc. And who did the men follow naturally? The officers that took care of them. An officer that was loved by his men knew that they would do anything for him if the need arose. If he took care of them, they would take care of him. Officers who didn't care, were quickly identified and followed only out of threat of insubordination. I had a boy in my Venturing crew of Civil War reenactors that adamantly said he did not want to be a leader in the crew. He fought me tooth and nail on it. I knew better. When he went off to college and jointed ROTC, he was selected by his comrades as squad leader right off the bat. What did they see, that I saw, that he didn't see in himself? Modesty often times keeps a lot of boys from recognizing their natural leadership ability. Opportunity to flex that ability produces excellent, natural born leaders. Stosh

Venividi: BINGO! They look to this guy because they all believe he is the one that can get them to where they need to be. He can guide them, encourage them and help them. He has the skills and reliability that is necessary for the group place their trust in. Even if the older boy does it wrong, they will follow because they believe their best chances of success still lie with him. Stosh