Stosh

Maybe we ought to do like God does, limit the rules to just 10 of the biggies. Stosh

If it wasn't for sore subjects, us idiots wouldn't have anything to blather on about! I did notice that a lot of posts on this thread are being posted by those who tend to lurk a bit. It's nice to see them come out of the bushes and join the campfire. Stosh

I'm thinking it rather strange that there is now an interpreter strip for what was once a 2nd Class requirement. As far as ham operators, the Morse Code requirement was dropped a couple of years back. Morse Code needs two people who understand it to communicate in it. How's that working out for you? Anyone know what SOS really means? ...---... ? Stosh

I was going to be polite and pass on that reference so I changed the thread to troop trailers. My troop always used the patrol cooking even at summer camp. They didn't like the mess hall and they got to pick their own menu items. It might have been a nice challenge for the boys to buddy cook, but with all the activities of the outing, didn't get an opportunity to pursue it. I would always individual cook both as a scouter and as a reenactor. The only time I cook for more than myself is when my wife and I camp. Gotta feed her, ya know! The boys were usually busy with their own cooking to ever watch what I was doing. I would think that for survival training, cooking for oneself would be a good idea to know. The only time my boys cooked for themselves is the T-FC requirement of cooking on a wood stove. Because I always cook for myself the council is always wanting me to teach the boys utensiless cooking. Heck, my aluminum mess kit is my best friend on an outing! Over the past 50 years I bet I have gone through a dozen of them. A mashed potato w/gravy and hamburger steak and corn on the cob vs. a meatball in an orange peel? Yeah, right. Sign me up! Stosh

I know of no BSA rules about this, but as you say, on a personal level, it's not a lesson I would ever teach anyone as being okay. If the cake is chocolate, then I'm thinking it would slip into the arena of a spiritual/moral issue. Stosh

I didn't want to interfere with another thread but a comment was made where the adults of the troop felt that a troop trailer is a necessity. I don't happen to think so, but my style of camping must vary quite a bit from what is expected today. I tried a new option for me last summer and am looking forward to it again this coming summer. I have done backpacking and canoeing for most of my adult life, but when my new wife put the screws to me for kayaking it became a whole new challenge. There isn't a whole lot of room in a kayak. (My canoes are 17' freighters capable of #750 load.) I could almost pull a troop trailer with those. But now with a kayak, a whole new world opened up. Water, tents, blankets, cooking gear, clothes, and all you have is 2 cargo bins in your kayak and the wife has only 1. I carried more stuff at Philmont that would fit in the kayak. On a normal camporee type weekend, I never use the troop trailer yet carry everything I need for the weekend. I don't eat with the boys, carry my own food, do my own menu etc. and fit everything into an old Yucca pack. In colder weather, I use 2 Yucca packs. Yet I have boys show up with a huge military duffle of just their personal gear. There's something wrong with this picture. I say there is no need for a troop trailer and the money that is spent on such an item would go a long way to covering the troop expense of lightweight gear. What say you? Stosh

Backpacking without a backpack??? The day hike idea is good for hiking, but the boys need to learn to pack minimally to travel from one site to the next. Taking a water bottle and a snack isn't backpacking for me. Nice idea for an initial outing of base camp for newbies. They take down their tents and flies in the morning, leave in camp but take as much gear as they are currently physically able, and when they return in the afternoon, reset up camp. The weight training would be necessary to eventually do it with full pack of minimal gear. Stosh

Does each patrol have their own pool table? If your trailer needs a bigger truck, there's a serious problem. Dump the heavy patrol boxes, get a light plastic tote and if it doesn't fit in there, it doesn't go. 7 totes will fit in a small pickup truck along with flies, tents and gear. Rest of the stuff goes in the vehicles hauling youth. The only exception to this might be summer camp where a dining hall is available. Then the only gear needed is personal gear. Scout trailers are a luxury. If it becomes a necessity, it is time to reevaluate the camping priorities. Just my 2-cents worth. Stosh

If service isn't your #1 priority, then there is no need for leadership. All you need are program managers. Those, unfortunately, can be either adult or youth. If the youth wishes only to sit on their hands, well then the program doesn't even have youth management. If it were me, I would suggest, (notice the emphasis on an adult talking to youth) you step up in the leadership position and with even a handful of followers set up service opportunities to pursue. If others see that the lodge is going to actually accomplish something of value, they will come out of the woodwork. If they don't, then they have joined OA for all the wrong reasons. Stosh

Rules are nice, but are they adult rules or boy rules? Not, who's going to adhere to them, but who made them up. What say the boys about all these rules? When I ran a troop as SM there were only 3 rules 1) Safety first, 2) Look and act like a Scout, and 3) Have fun. I had very little problems throughout my tenure. Occasionally the SPL would do the sign's up routine, I never did. Everyone was addressed as Mr. _____. That peer respect between adults and youth prevailed throughout and there wasn't any rule necessary to reinforce it. A true leader does not need to tell people how to follow/behave, the people will follow his lead naturally. Prior to my arrival the boys called the SM by his first name, they did to me as well. I always referred to them as Mr. and their last name. Within a month I was no longer referred to by my first name by anyone. I never made a rule or even mentioned the "new policy". Scouts who have turned 18 and moved on to college/military, etc. still refer to me as Mr. _____ even though I have told them they no longer need to. I never use sign's up to bring a meeting to order. I just stand there and wait for them to settle down. The very first time I did this the SPL put sign's up and quieted them down. He said they were used to having the SM do that. I said. It's a matter of respect. I don't interrupt other people when they have something important they were doing. I'm not going to interrupt them with sign's up. It only took once or twice more and whenever I stood up in front to address the boys, it got quiet right away. Eventually this got translated to anyone standing up in front to address the boys. It was rather funny to hear the boys at the first COH hushing their parents so we could get started. Normally it's the other way around. Lead by example. Teaching the SPL and other officers to lead by making rules is not leadership at all. Moving from adult to scout led means that if rules need to be created and maintained, they should be coming from the youth. If a band of travelers encounter a fork in the road and the "leader" knows that one way is longer and safer and the other shorter and more dangerous. Regardless of which way he picks, the question always remains, will the others follow? That's a mark of a true leader. It isn't the situation, it isn't the choice, it's whether or not anyone will follow. If the youth "leaders" make up a bunch of rules and no one follows, it could be a problem for their "leadership" skills. Same for adults. If they make up a bunch of rules and then spend the next X number of months trying to get everyone to follow, it is a strong indicator of what kind of leader he/she might be. A true leader really doesn't need to make up a bunch of rules, people will follow his guidance without it having to be laid out in stone. Just my 2-cents worth. Stosh

A SM can handle 5-8 boys in a small troop quite nicely. But if he's running the show, then none of the boys ever learn leadership and responsibility. If you grow beyond that you need the patrol method. That way no one has more than 6-8 people to handle at one time. 50 boys? 6 patrols each PL has 8 boys to worry about and work with. SPL has 6 PL's to worry about at one time. Each patrol operates like a "mini-troop" with PL as the "SM". Those "troops" are coordinated by the SPL through the PLC. If the SM think he can handle all 50 boys, guess again. A highly trained, professional school teacher says the ability to handle more than 25 is a handful. Train your boys and disburse the leadership throughout the troop. Stosh

Blue jeans seems to be the norm around here. Same difference. Everyone has their own idea of what "uniform" means and it usually doesn't really mean "uniform" at all. Stosh

A lot of people have the tendency to jump in with both feet when it comes to backpacking. This is both good and bad. Scouts that young cannot carry the weight necessary to do a long trek so I would suggest backing up all the way to where you were before you jumped. Start with learning how to camp with minimal amounts of gear that one would need for backpacking activities and then put them in a car, drive them to the campsite and let them have it. They get there, they learn how to minimally camp, but they don't start out dead tired and "crabby". Once they learn to minimally camp, add pack of personal items, and hike a bit before the second camp out where the leaders will have brought the supplemental items that would have flattened the younger boys. Once they have learned to minimally camped, then begin the training necessary to build up their ability to carry the gear. Let them grow into it. You have established the goal at the beginning. You have brought them through the educational necessities to be able to enjoy the goal, but getting there is something they may not physically be able to do. However, the training to get there will be a lot easier to tolerate (sore legs, shoulders and exhaustion) if they know for real what the goal is. Stosh

My take on this: If you THINK you are a HP, then you are on the verge of it. At least you are asking yourself the question. At that point, shift gears! Start making suggestions instead of telling him what to do next. "If it were me, I'd start saving up for a new book. But that's only a suggestion." Need the pages filled out again? "Well, I would suggest you talk with the SM about that, that's between you and him." Need some help with a knot? "I probably won't do as well as your PL, but let's see what we can do. Show me how much you already know and we'll go from there." etc.! You are there to help and assist just like any other boy that has hit a road block. Either nudge him a bit but offer up suggestions of things that he could try on his own. Any time your son says, "But Dad, you're an Eagle Scout and show know these things, and yes, you know the importance of boy-led and you'll make sure your boy learns to stand on his own two feet so that when he's an Eagle Scout too, he'll know just as much as his old man. Stosh

I don't know as if I would go so far as to say wimps, but there is definitely a decline in certain skills that historically had been quite necessary. If one is never going to leave the house, office, school, or other buildings or even vehicles, then outdoor skills are not necessary. If their idea of camping is a trailer or RV they don't need anything other skills except maybe getting the gas grill going or at least build a fire for roasting marshmallows for the kids. However, these outdoor skills really aren't being touted as important anymore because for the most part the parents of our scouts basically are getting along without them already. Whereas there were generations of people that sat in front of TV's with their TV dinners for years until the next generation came along and are now in front of the computer with their frozen pizzas. I never really thought too much about it until Y2k rolled around and everyone was in a total panic trying to figure out how to maintain their standard of living if the world collapsed. When my coworkers asked me if I had my survival kit, my food stocks, generator, etc. etc. I just smiled. I told them I was going to fill my bathtub with water for drinking, take my dutch oven off the shelf and collect firewood from the woods behind the house. I figured that would take care of just about anything that came along for about a month. When asked what I was going to do with all that frozen food when the power went out. I just said, I was going to open the door of the freezer and forget about it. I live in Wisconsin and once the temp dropped, everything would be okay. The lack of understanding of how people survived prior to electricity was totally amazing. We have built houses to protect us from the outside world. Even bugs aren't allowed inside. Scouting is one of the last bastions of learning to survive outdoors if one is required to take a path other than from the front door to the car door and back at the end of the day. Does that make the wimps? I dunno, but it surely makes them illiterate of how to function in places that have trees and grass. Stosh

I always carry a pocketknife, standard BSA whittler model. I've had to have it held by security when I would go into certain buildings, but they always returned it when I exited. At national centennial jamboree we toured Washington DC, I always took it out of my pocket and presented it to the security people to hold while I was in the building. I was in full uniform and they simply told me put it back in my pocket and keep it there while in the building. No problem. At work a new policy just came out saying that all pocketknives were banned. I asked my boss (the general manager) if he was going to fire me now or later when I opened a box with it. He said, get a box cutter, keep the knife in your pocket and don't tell anyone I have one in my pocket too. Sometimes common sense does prevail. As far as the law is concerned, it is not a concealed weapon (blade is too short), but if in a desperate situation, I'm sure I can figure out quickly how to make it one. Stosh

While age does not automatically assume wisdom, I agree. However, an adult may be able to overcome a problem by having had some experience that a young lad does not. Adult strength could also be an asset especially with an improperly loaded wheelbarrow. However, with that being said, a smaller person using a bucket may have to make more trips, but often times a job could be done differently and in a safer manner than trying to do a big job all at once. In the case of the cleanup of the trees, one adult/large boy could maybe handle a wheelbarrow with a full load, but three scouts could probably do the same amount of work. Heck, no one's getting paid on these projects, so an Eagle candidate needs to take into account necessary resources. One adult with a wheelbarrow vs. 3-4 scouts with pails. Just part of the planning. While a scout may not be able to drop a full tree safely, he could with a buck saw and a little elbow grease clean it up after it has been dropped. Sure it would take more time, but the project isn't a race. With MB's and such where the boy is expected to handle dangerous tools, that is quite a different subject. Part of the MB should be in training the boy to use the tool properly regardless of the rules. Can a Cub Scout cut out his PWD car? Maybe not with a table or jig saw, but he surely could make headway with hand tools just fine. Heck, I whittled my PWD car with a pocket knife that I was trained to use. It didn't win any prizes for speed or looks, but it was my car, I built it, and that's all that counted. I may have been last place loser, but I still have the car 50 years later. When I took boys canoeing, I always had a newbie scout in the front of my canoe and he knew he was "stuck" with the SM and everyone else got to go with their buddies. I would always whittle a small paddle put the date, place and his name on it. After a while the boys caught on and would draw straws to canoe with me. I noticed that 2 of the boys had them on their display table for their ECOH's. It surely would have been a lot easier to use some power tools to make those, but I had all weekend to make it and I always got one made before the trip was over. I have a 6' stave/walking stick I carry on most activities. Over the years I have burned in places and dates of where I have taken it. One boy was amazed that I spent that much time woodburning in all that writing and designs. He was blown away when I told him I used a magnifying glass on a sunny day to do it. I have also figured out over the years that doing it slow and carefully using hand tools is often tedious, but tends to be a bit more safer. Yay, I've been known to knick myself when I whittle, but a bow saw can do more damage in a shorter period of time. A chain saw? I don't even want to think about that. I still drop full sized trees with an axe. People think I'm nuts, and they may be right. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

Of course everyone jumps to the conclusion that the Eagle candidate must show leadership over peers and younger? Why couldn't the candidate show leadership over a group of adults qualified to do the work? I had a candidate clean up a park and he had his crew of adults in chaps, steel toed shoes, ear plugs, hard hats with shields and safety glasses, and gloves do the tree felling with chain saws. He had the boys mark the trees that needed to go, had them clear the area and the adults went to work. After the cutting was done, the boys moved back in to haul out the cut debris. I also had another boy cleaning up after a church building project and the boys did the raking and grunt work, but the adults did the high work and any power tools were in the hands of adults who were a crew from the church. There's nothing wrong with a boy supervising a work crew of adults to get his project done correctly. Not everything has to be done with youth labor. A good leader gets the correct "labor tools" to do the job safely and correctly. Everyone gets worked up by the rules that they forget a good leader will take all contingencies into consideration when planning his project. Put the right person with the right tools. End of discussion. Stosh

A little different slant on the subject. In Cub Scouts, the parents do all the heavy lifting in the program. They guide and mentor their child through the activities and the program basically gives direction towards an outdoors emphasis. The Webelos section of Cub Scouts begins the process of parents pulling back and let the program and the leaders (be one if you wish, not a problem unless one is not trained) start carrying the process of growth. Yes, be there for him, but your main emphasis is not helping him with the program, instead teaching him to help himself in the program. When he gets to Scouts, the program is designed to carry him on his own skills and talents and help him develop for himself certain skills, interests and opportunities for leadership and group management development. Of course one can participate along with your son as a leader with program training and emphasis on having one's son exposed to his own development. Instead of showing him how to do the activities as one does in Wolf and Bear levels of scouting, the conversation transitions more into "show me what you learned" kind of attitude. Yes, there will be times when he struggles too much and a little helping hand is necessary, but he should be taking on more and more responsibility for himself, so that the day will come when he heads off to high adventure he won't need mom/dad there with him in order for him to be successful. It's kind of like telling your boy, here's the open door you need to pass through to become self-sufficient and self-successful. While in Webelos, always make sure he knows the door will never shut behind him in case he needs to retreat for a bit. But eventually it is hoped that he won't need to keep coming back and will strike out on a life of his own. This is difficult for parents to do and having gone through it, it's as tough on the parents as it is on the kids. However, this is an important part of the child's life moving on with his own life. The alternative is to have your kids living in the spare bedroom until they are 40 years old and mom and dad are too old to help them anymore. Webelos is an excellent time in a child's life to start the adventure of being a readyman, a naturalist, a traveler, etc. and learn that everyone if given the opportunity to pass through this rather stressful time can emerge on the other side, confident and successful. Webelos is the tip of the iceberg of this development and starting out right can make a world of difference for your child. What color uniform should he wear? Doesn't make a whole lot of difference. If he's active and excited, taking on challenges he's going to wear them out on a regular basis. I would think that if he didn't wear them out there's a problem. He'll have a ton of patches marking the milestones of his success and you'll go nuts sewing them on unless you teach him to do it himself, just like everything else in the program. It's his program, let him figure it out, don't do it for him. The buddy system will teach him to be a good husband, the patrol-method will teach him to be a good father, and the boy-led part will teach him to be a good citizen. Remember that while your boy is having the time of his life, you will most assuredly feel the pain of watching your little boy grow up right before your eyes (and I know how tough that is). It begins, gingerly and carefully in Webelos and picks up speed as he grows in the program. You see your little Webelos boy standing in front of you today, and with the help of the program and encouragement of the family, will see him standing in front of you, a well developed young man getting his Star, Life or even Eagle award. That's the potential of the Scouting program. Stosh

Scoutnut, I think you misquoted me on the "only a woman can truly understand the fine art of becoming a young lady and likewise only a man can truly understand the fine art of becoming a young man." I couldn't find that in my post. I don't adhere to it either. And I might not have sat around a campfire with a group of Girl Scouts, but I do have 5 daughters and 2 sons. Does that help? Only 2 were interested in GSA one dropped out early and the other dropped out after Silver Award. I have had responsibilities for co-ed and separate sex church groups, Cubs, Boy and Venturing (co-ed) scouts, tutoring one-on-one with both male and female students, co-ed groups of troubled youth. Yep, I biased, based on 40+ years experience over a half century of observation and interaction with youth. I've watched hundreds of young people grow up. No two ever did it the same way. But there are certain basic patterns they all tend to migrate towards. Stosh

I haven't participated in this thread because I tend to be a bit biased on the subject. I'll admit that right up front. Heck, I'm a old man, well set in his way. I'm from the per-feminist era, Neanderthal a bit as well, chauvinist par excellance, I still hold doors for women and let them go first. I smile nicely when the glare at me when I do so. However, there are certain times and places where separation of groups is necessary and helpful in the development of young people. I've had 40+ years working with young people, 20+ of that in the BSA program. In co-ed groups there are certain social norms/limits/standards one has to adhere to as a courtesy to all, but in a uni-sex group, some of those norms and standards can be relaxed or tightened. There has been more than once when I've come upon a group of scouts sitting around the campfire involved in some rather inappropriate "locker room" types of conversation. In those instances I pull up a log, plop myself down and say, "So you want to talk about girls and sex, sounds like fun." After a rather protracted silence, the subject gets going around a more appropriate dialogue on respect, courtesy and other dynamics more appropriate to the development of young men. Could this happen with 1) a co-ed group? or 2) a female leader? Possibly yes, but it would surely not be as open and honest had it not been with a male leader. On the other hand, had the group around the fire been all girls, I would probably been tossed from the program for such antics. So, yes, I am biased, bigoted, and hold a double-standard on this subject, but then, so does everyone else around me. Can a woman discuss sensitive issues with co-ed groups? Sure. Men, maybe. Can a woman discuss sensitive issues with a male group, yes. A man with a female group, no way! I don't believe our societal double-standards allow for a lot of in-depth discussion on such issues. The social dynamics always underlie leader/scout relations. The new boy at summer camp suffering from homesickness will relate to a "mom figure" female scouter differently than he will relate to a "dad figure" male scouter. Does it make an effective difference? Maybe, maybe not, but will the dynamics be different, yes. Discipline in a troop may be different depending on whether the scouter is male or female as well. Effective? maybe, maybe not, but it will be dished out and received differently. Do I deal in open stereotypes? Yes, but so does the society around me. There are always exceptions to any rules, but those are always on a case-by-case situation and not the "accepted norm". Do women relate differently to female doctors than they do to male doctors? Sure. How many men have female doctors? So before I'm burned at the stake in the proverbial campfire just ask yourself just to what extent are scouters biased/bigoted on this subject, and why would the scouts be any different than the product of their nature and environment? While ideally our society is trying to develop a culture based on equality, every young adult growing up always sees the hypocrisy in it all by knowing that there are differences in people on a number of varying levels. If this concept is hard to get your head around, just ask yourself, when you are out on a backpacking trip with a co-ed group, when someone has to take a whiz in the woods, are different protocols followed? I rest my bigoted/chauvinist case. So can a female scouter do as well as a male scouter? I dunno, depends on the people involved, the dynamics involved and the desired outcome expected. Too many moving parts to come up with a definitive answer. Stosh

The subject has been slightly touched upon by various postings here, but there is another issue to consider. European tradition implies that certain clothing items are reserved for family members only. Others ID certain portions of a country where the person resides. The Irish cable knit sweaters were certain patterns that were respected from one family to the other. Basically the Irish were seafaring and when a ship went down and a body washed up on shore, the family would be able to retrieve their family member based on the sweater the seaman wore. The Scots had tartan patterns they used to identify family members and it is respected that non-family members not wear them. In the use of military uniforms, the tartan kilt of everyone was different so that after a battle, the families could sort out the dead and take them home. I am of Scottish decent and I have certified approval to wear my family tartan in any form I wish, i.e. kilt, tie, blazer, shirt, etc. In America that tradition is not respected and thus one has bagpipe groups all wearing the same kilts, (usually Stewart, because it's "pretty"!) etc. I don't know if it falls into the realm of respectful tradition to wear the family tartan if one is not of that family, but in America most don't honor that tradition anyway. Obviously if one is an honorary non-family person allowed to wear identification tartan of another family, that is something that has already been considered and approved previously. I don't know if that approval was meant only for the small ID patch of the Wood Badge necker or whether it encompassed the wearing of a full kilt of the family. If one is concerned about the diversity sensitivity towards others, that might be something to consider before purchasing kilts. Stosh

Sounds like the Board was not going to accept the approved advancement. The SM signed off on his POR, his Scout Spirit was okay, and the Board is flat out - adding to the requirements and questioning the integrity of the SM and his ability to determine whether or not a requirement is fulfilled. The only responsibility the Board has is to REVIEW the rank advancement, not judge anything. And how would anyone on the Board even know if the store room was messy unless they were meddling in an area they shouldn't have been in the first place? Stosh

Nobody can starve to death in 2 days. Yes, it would be uncomfortable, but fessing up to stupidity and having the SM run them to the store isn't solving the problem. Cub Scouts may Do Your Best, but by the time you get to 3rd year scouts Be Prepared should be the norm. If the SM is the one taking care of the patrol, then the real leader is the SM. Time for a patrol election with an emphasis on electing someone who cares about his buddies. Stosh

Is this troop transitioning from adult-led to boy-led? If that is the case, then the boy's better get on task pretty quick. If it is an adult-led troop, it's time for the boys to take over and run their own show. It it is a boy-led troop, then it's a lesson they needed to learn the hard way. Next time they need to select leadership that actually takes responsibility for the job needed to be done. PL's need to step up and take care of their boys! That's servant leadership. If they don't, then it's time to get a new PL who will. They wear that POR for a reason and that reason isn't for prestige, it's to indicate a position in the troop that has responsibilities that need to be met to validate advancement. I for one wouldn't follow a "leader" that doesn't lead anywhere. And I'm going to seriously question the validity of any scout's idea that poptarts and hot dogs have anything to do with a nutritious meal. How did they get through T-FC with that idea? I don't see that anywhere in the advancement requirements that a scout should have to put up with that. Stosh