Stosh

One of the toughest lessons a parent has to learn is they are responsible for developing their children into well-rounded independent people. It's difficult to see them grow up and rely less and less on you and they are going to make mistakes, it's all part of the process. Everyone knows that when the mother bird kicks the chicks out of the nest, there's always a possibility their going to hit the ground quite hard! But those who soar insures the mother bird has done her job correctly. The mantra I always lived by is, "I'm working myself out of a job!" If I do it correctly, my children will do the same for my grandkids. Stosh

One is always going to have problems with troop functionality when those assigned a POR don't do their job. If they aren't doing their job, the solution is simple, get someone in there that will. Too often we are "locked" into 6 month tenures that means the troop has to suffer for 6 months before the situation can be corrected. Not me, if one is not doing their job, they're out and someone who wants to do it is put in. If that screws up the calendar, too bad. Servant Leadership requires leadership that cares about taking care of those to whom they are responsible. If they aren't doing that, then they aren't leading, they are sitting back on their laurels garnering up advancement credit for no work being done. A Scout is Trustworthy. If he isn't doing his job, he's not trustworthy. Plain and simple. A lot of problems in troops would go away if they accepted the premise that if someone says they're going to do a job, it is expected they do it. If this concept is too difficult for our scouts and we don't take the time to teach it properly, they will get it straightened out for them the hard way when they get their first job. TG is a pure servant leadership position with great responsibility. That position will make it or break it for a lot of new scouts just getting their feet on the ground in the program. It can't be taken lightly. Stosh

When I was an ASM I was serving with a Type A SM. His style was a bit over the top for me, but I got along with him otherwise. Being a by-the-book kinda guy he did send a lot of boys home, had parents attend, etc. the standard stuff. He often chided me for not being a very good disciplinarian. I told him I didn't notice the behaviors he was experiencing. He said I was lucky, then. However, it wasn't an issue of luck in as much as it was an issue of fear. I would describe some of the situations coming very close to bullying. Never really going over the line. But the boys feared him. When the boys were around me, they seldom acted up and if I caught them at something, the first thing out of their mouths was, "You're not going to tell Mr. S (SM), are you?" My standard answer is, "Should I?" They were actually afraid of him. The technique I use with scouts is quite a bit different and yet as one boy stated once, they were afraid of me too. Because I treated them with respect and placed high expectations on them, he said he was afraid of disappointing me. That kind of fear is not the same as that which is evoked through discipline. Another boy got chewed out and when I saw him after the SM got done with him. I said I noticed he got his head handed to him. He said yeah. I smiled and said, I bet you don't do that again anytime soon. He started to explain why he did what he did, but I interrupted him and said, I didn't need to know what you did, but I was more interested in what he was going to do from now on. The conversation took on a whole different attitude. I once had someone ask me what respect was and I gave the standard definition. He said, Nope. The word respect comes from two Latin words: re- to do something again and -spect meaning to look or to see. (think spectacles = glasses) It means to give a person a second look or chance. People whom we respect we will take the time to look again. People we fear are people we avoid, we do all we can to keep away and never take that second look. This is why servant leaders draw people in while directive or demanding leaders push them away. Stosh

LOL It's one of those things in the US Flag Code that no one ever reads. A staff with a flag fixed to it cannot be half-masted. Thus one puts a black ribbon afixed at the top to signify it is at half-mast. Be sure to take it off at noon. Stosh

The problem with patrol yells is that they are no longer functional. It used to be used as a communication tool to gather up the patrols. If you wanted to gather up your patrol, the PL would raise up the patrol flag, give the yell and the boys were to locate the yell and flag and assemble. I have seen this process work well in other groups. I was with a tour group once that functionally used the "patrol" yell system. It was a bus tour group and once everyone got off the bus and out into the crowds, sometimes there would be an individual or small group that would be "lost". At that point all they would do is yell, "Ziggy, ziggy, ziggy!" and wait for the response, "Hoya, hoya, hoya!" By calling back and forth they could zero in on each other and get "found". When the tour guide needed everyone back on the bus he would give the yell, and everyone would gather back at the bus. The patrol flag is yet another marker for the patrols. At National Jamboree our contingency of 35 boys were trying to make it out of the arena and back to camp, but the crowds were horrendous. I carry a 6' walking stick with my flag on it. I simply lifted it up and headed back to camp. My boys kept a visual on it until the crowds thinned and by the time we got half way back to camp all 35 boys were in a group. If the flag and yell are nothing more than a routine at camporee competition activities, they will soon be lost in the shuffle. Functionally? Well if they are working properly, then there shouldn't be a problem. When I had my troop, we functionally used our patrol flags. When summer camps line up their boys for flags, it is usually SPL at the head of the line and everyone lines up behind him. That way when they salute the flag, they basically can only see the guy in front of them. My SPL would not line up on the camp's prescribed spot but would instead stand back 20' and stand. He had an SPL flag. The ASPL with ASPL flag would line up 4' to the left of the SPL. Then each PL with the patrol flags would line up behind the SPL 4' apart. The patrols would gather to the left of the PL 1' apart with the APL's on the left end of each patrol line. This block of boys could easily see the flag and salute properly. Once the SPL found his spot, the other leaders could quickly find their and the boys could then all form up neatly and orderly. The first time the boys did this, the MC of the Friday evening flag ceremony of the camporee suggested each of the other troops line up this way. It was quickly obvious that most of the boys of the other troops didn't even know what patrol they were supposed to be in and there wasn't a patrol flag in sight. It if isn't functional, it won't last and becomes just a historical tradition. Kinda like the patrol method. Stosh

LOL! Great! I got a few of you to read it. Flag on a line of march? If there are two flags, i.e. National and State, the National is on the right. If there are three flags, the National goes out front. I figured there would be a few who would research the "myths", most are really myths a #4 is not. Thanks for doing the research! Now go back and do the research on the US Flag Code, it has changed quite a bit from when it was first introduced. For example women and children were the only ones to place their hand over their heart at the start and then extend their hand towards the flag, palm up, when they say the words, "to the Flag". Men were to leave their hats on and stand at attention. What is always interesting is the introduction of "myth" as it interacts with the military protocol for flags. The triangular fold is military, not civilian. It's a nice touch, but not civilian protocol. I always explained to my boys that there is no one way to fold the flag, but the traditional way (triangle) does make it easier to raise the flag. Indoor flag ceremonies are not military. Military do not say the pledge of allegiance either, by being active military, it is not necessary. The military also wear the flag on their uniforms backwards as compared to those in the civilian arena, i.e. police, firefighters, patriotic groups, which display with the union on the Flag's own right. And yet, when all is said and done there is no prescribed punishment for not adhering to the US Flag Code. Trivia: Does anyone know why this is? Oh, and by the way, if your boys are going to be marching in the Memorial Day Parade, be sure to afix a black ribbon to the flag's staff! Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

mrface2112, Welcome to the forum. You will receive information on this forum that applies to a variety of different aged groups and yes I was aware of the fact that your problem is focused more on the younger scouts. However, one can never start too early with teaching respect. This, of course, requires a bit of adaptation to not only the age group, but the social-economic issues as well as current environment. Over the years I have found that the younger the age, the louder the noise. So, I adapt by speaking more quietly to the younger folk. This way the young person's interruptions are far more often corrected by their peers who can't hear what they might be interested in. An adult can talk until they are blue in the face, but the buddy next to the offender can shut them down in a matter of seconds. I recently did a presentation at a Blue Gold Banquet that after an hour and 15 minutes I called it off to the groans of the crowd, they wanted more. It was the only time of the whole evening when the kids sat totally quiet. I talked quietly and directed my attention to the little ones in front. Heck, if the adults can't hear from the back of the room, they can come forward. Not my problem. I was doing a presentation on Civil War uniforms and equipment. I was covering topics well above the kids' learning level. However, during the presentation I had one of three weapons in my hands that I "fiddled" with. I didn't have to talk about the weapons, but the anticipation of my getting to it kept them quiet. Took out the rifle, looked it over, put on the bayonet, wiped it down. Then I pulled the rammer and dropped it down the barrel, the whole time I explaining the causes of the Civil War. My voice kept the adults happy and playing with the gun kept the kids quiet. I had a variety of different uniforms that I had the boys model, while standing on a table so that those in back could see. The quiet best behaved kids got to put on the uniforms. Then I went into the camp equipment while I played with the officer's hand gun. Spun the chamber a few times, worked the rammer, wiped it down, etc. Then after that section was done, the officer's sword came out. When I finished with all the presentation except for weapons, I finally got out the guns and sword and talked about them as I re-demonstrated them once again. Questions? Plenty. The more you get, the more you know the kids are paying attention. Stupid questions? They're the best. One kid asked if I were going to be a real soldier what did I want to be. I said General because they made the most money. Some of the boys even commented and asked that if the gun could shoot only one bullet at a time and it took 20 seconds to reload, wasn't that dangerous? Yep. You're out there having been trained to be the best, and then apply that to doing your best, working hard and being ready for dangerous situations in life. Every question worked it's way back to scouting. Why did it work? Because I treated everyone in the room the same regardless of age or interest. The adults got short answers, the kids got lessons in scouting. After I was done, and everyone needed to get back to their seats, it was difficult to drag all the little ones who rushed the display to see things up closely. So, it can be done, one can keep a bunch of Tiger Cubs interested for long periods of time, if, of course, you know how to think like a Tiger Cub. Stosh

In today's rapid pace of Sesame Street attention spans, it's a wonder any of the kids today ever sit still long enough for any instruction on self-respect and respect for others. For the most part respect is taught by demonstration, not instruction, so over the years I have adopted a variety of different "techniques" to deal with the situations I run into. First of all the taught reaction to acting up/disrespect is to blow up in the kid's face. Ask any parent who has reached the end of their rope. Then there's the interrupting their interrupting. Like teaching a kid not to hit others by spanking them. So what does one do. Do what the kids don't expect! Totally freaks them out. When I took over a troop as SM, I never used "sign's up". I walked to the front of the room and waited for their attention. The kids expected sign's up. Eventually the SPL stood up and quieted down the group and got their attention. I thanked them for their attention (even though it was forced) and continued. After a couple of times going to the front for SM Minute, they would quiet down as I approached. I never interrupted their interruptions with sign's up. I always referred to them as Mr. and their surname. Eventually they addressed me as such. Their former SM was known to them by his first name only. They addressed me by my first name for a week or so, but soon they all switched. You know you have earned their respect when they turn 18 become ASM and won't switch over to using the familiar first name as one would do as adult friends. If they were caught doing something "wrong", I never raised my voice. Just started asking quiet questions, addressed to the individual by their Mr. surname. If it was a multiple boy fray, and other boys jumped in. I would simply repeat the question with the Mr. surname boy. Then I would go to the next boy, address him and pose the necessary questions. The boys all quickly learned that they would all have a chance to state their case and it didn't need to be at any intense level nor did they have to interrupt in order to do so. One does not garner up respect by making rules and enforcing them. They only demonstrate to others the expectations one would like out of them. The Golden Rule kinda civility. One gets respect by showing respect. Stosh

There is no "proper" way to fold the flag. There is, however, a traditional way, i.e. triangular so it is easier to raise the flag next time. It takes only about 15 minutes to read the entire US Flag Code, it would help the discussion if everyone actually knew what it said, (and what it does not say). Myths: 1) There is a correct way to fold the flag. 2) Flag draped coffin is for veterans only. 3) A flag having touched the ground must be properly burned. 4) Protocol Pledge of Allegiance and Star Spangled Banner are in the US Flag Code. 5) Dipping the Flag and carrying the Flag tilted forward are the same thing. 6) The US Flag goes on the right end of a line of flags in a parade. 7) It is okay to have a US flag fly from a staff attached to the vehicle's side window. 8) There is no way to display a fixed flag as "half-mast". 9) The US Flag is to be flown at half-mast on Memorial Day. 10) The proper way to dispose of a flag is described in the US Flag Code. Fact: Most people have never really read the US Flag Code, but seem to know an awful lot about it. Stosh

It's too bad there isn't some sort of red arrow/white background kind of official patch to apply to an official part of the MB sash so that the two don't need to be present at the same time. The MB sash usually covers the OA patch if worn properly, thus the desire to wear the sash on the belt. The old custom of collar brass for OA could also be considered. Like WB maybe an official OA necker could be used on special occasions. There are a lot of options out there that National OA should look at as a nice alternative to the whatever-works tradition we have out there now. Stosh

Recognition in any group is always problematic. On the one hand we have just one super winner that leaves everyone else losers and then on the other hand everyone is a winner. Both seem to be extremes that most people blow off anyway. Over the years, I didn't do much for official recognition other than the program items, beads, badges, patches, etc. However, for the others, it was usually something simple and with no real significance other than to the boy who received it. Every year we would go on a canoe trip and all the buddies would pair up for the canoes and that meant usually a new scout who hasn't developed much in friendship yet usually gets stuck in the front of an adult's canoe. Basically we need to weight anyway to hold down the front. Anyway, I always whittle a little canoe paddle out of a stick, write the name of the river and date on it and give it to the boy with nothing more than a thanks for riding along with me. It is surprising how many of these little paddles have appeared on the ECOH tables along with all the other memorabilia that are part of their scouting history. I have done the Turk's Knot neckerchief woggle for a lot of the boys for various reasons as well. I have "autographed" their walking sticks with wood-burning using a magnifying glass. I always make popcorn whenever we have a troop campfire (major ritual in my troop) and always select one of the boys to help. They know they were selected for a reason which I let them know prior to asking them to help. "John, I appreciate what you did to help out the new boys today. I like it when I see such helping going on, wanna help with the popcorn this evening?" They also know they get the last shot at the melted butter once everyone else is served. That always tends to be a rather generous amount. It is easy to spot the kid that seems to be left out at first. If they garner up a little attention of any sort from the leaders it sometimes help them get better accepted into the group. I had one older boy ask me one time why I spent so much time with one new scout. I said as a leader that was my job, if he wanted to be a leader, too, he could do the same thing. He did. I had one boy sign up for Swimming MB at camp. Showed up for the swim test and didn't pass. He went to the MB class and worked on passing the swim test every day (one of the instructors took him under his wing). Finally on Thursday he passed the swim test. I went down to the camp store, bought the biggest fishing bobber I could find, wrote "I can swim" and the date and gave it to him that evening along with congratulations. Recognition may be an award, trophy of some sort, a small gift or a kind word. I don't try and find an item to fit the situation in as much as finding a reason to help someone do better tomorrow. Stosh

I do realize that the meanings of words change over the years, but the word scout in B-P's vocabulary was a specialized soldier that would move out into unknown areas and garner up information about the enemy. These people needed the skills necessary to work independently of the main military force and needed to rely on their own skills to go undetected and simply survive out beyond the ability of the army to support them. When B-P chose the name for the organization he used this word which had a meaning that defined the scope of what he was attempting to create for young boys, the ability to move away from the safety of a known environment and go out and explore the unknown having been trained to so so. Does that mean scouts car camp in public campgrounds that have a game room and camp store just down the street? Does it mean that the scouts gather for camporees and summer camps with a mess hall? Or does it mean they are to move away from the comfort of the known into the world of the unknown. After all there is no adventure in the known. What is it we are preparing the boys for? BE PREPARED is having the skills to meet the unknown. Sure there is a lot of training getting these boys ready, but for what? Real scouts are those prepared to take on the challenges of moving away from the training camp, base supplies and strike out into the unknown where the adventure really is. Stosh

The Flag Code does not say anything about raising a flag indoors, but it explicitly forbids it's display horizontally over the floor. It is supposed to fly free, not hung onto with any hands. Stosh

Hillcourt may have referenced real scouts as those really doing scouting activities. While I have never said to a scout he is not real because I believe eventually ever scout has a chance to eventually become real. Some make it, some do not. On the other hand I have often made (and called scouts) Parlor Scouts a reference to a pre-Hillcourt era. I think it is far less offensive, but far more descriptive of non-nature scouts throughout the years. I think it would be comparable to maybe a Hollywood cowboy as compared to one who actually works with cattle. They look good, they talk the jargon, maybe even have the skills, but would be totally out of their element once the screen door slammed shut behind them. Stosh

I seldom use a flashlight unless I am looking for something specific in my tent, and then only if I can't identify it by touch. One summer I did the CampMaster thingy and didn't use a lantern or flashlight all week. However, one night it was a bit rainy and so I had on a long black drover's coat to keep dry and my expedition hat. I could see a group of scouts coming my way with flashlights and so I stepped off the trail so as to keep them from shining me in the face with their lights. Just as a precaution I also tilted the brim of my hat down over my face. When they got up to where I was, one of the kids flashed his light in my direction and they all thought it was cool that someone left a coat and hat to scare the new guys. Well by then everyone's flashlights were pointed towards me, my vision was effected so it was no longer necessary to hold my head down so I lifted it and said something about it not being polite to shine a flashlight in someone's face. I think they all misunderstood and thought I said, everyone run off in different directions screaming like a girl. In either case, I didn't have any more lights in my eyes. Stosh

With Sesame Street Kids of today who's focus is often short lived, paying attention is quite difficult. When nature can not flash at one in 5 second bursts, they quickly get bored. Thus to fill in the blanks, the continual entertainment of iPods and other electronics is often employed. However, the randomness of nature often comes when least expected and I would say that a lot of the experience in the woods or on the trail is missed because the focus has been altered with electronics. I know that simply picking up the pace of a hike will focus one's attention on the feet and trail instead of the wildlife that they pass by quickly. Couple that with shutting out all noise with ear buds, and one might as well have stayed at home. I'm not even going to try and regulate the useage of such devices. But if all one has to do is stand in the woods listening to music intead of at home listening to music, just to get a credit check in the Handbook, there's something seriously wrong about the attitude of the boy towards Scouts. I've hunted, fished, camped, hiked and been out-of-doors for most of my life. I have never had need of any electronics during those times. For me, getting out of my work cube or off my sofa into nature is an excuse to get away from all those electonic devices in the first place. Even while driving in a car, the radio is off and I and my passengers are identifying ditch flowers and enjoying the scenery. I prefer the really back roads when traveling. Even then much of nature flies by rather quickly. Stop and smell the roses used to be the big mantra for those in the great American Rat Race. I would suggest wild roses as better. And remember even if you win the Rat Race, you're still a rat. It's Saturday a.m. and my kayak is calling. I don't even like the noise of powered watercraft. I hope the river isn't running too fast today, I wouldn't want to get done too soon. Stosh

My favorite prank is the rope under the tent routine. It will freak out even the most seasoned practical joker. Stosh

My TG's always started out functionally as the PL of the NSP's. After getting the boys oriented to the troop, he would begin the process of teaching by example leadership of their patrol. Rotated out the leadership responsibilities and did what most adults do to help the new guys get their feet on the ground, so to speak. He lined up Instructors, helped with the gear with QM, organized the first outing and walked through the steps of meals, gear, camplife, etc. Then began the process of turning the patrol over to the boys and backing out of the process gradually. Stosh

Maybe as a "service project" the other boys in the troop could all pitch in an fix the damaged patrol box as a sign of respect against such inappropriate actions. One may never know who the person was who did wrong and made the mess, but they will all know who did right and fixed it. Stosh

Is the message: "We've got the hangman's noose, now the only thing we need is the culprit!"? There is discipline involved in the SPL and PL's sitting down and beginning an investigation into who and why. Too often we simply jump to the last page of the book and focus on the ending. Who isn't even as important as why. "Hey PL, did any of your boys tick off someone who would want to do this?" Eventually you will get to who, but you will also know why. It's important that the boys learn the process, not just the consequences. "If we catch you doing this, you're outta scouts, PERIOD!" Okay, the game's afoot. Just don't get caught. Duh! Even if you do get caught, they're not going to fess up! Anyone here not know how a 12-13 year old thinks? If we are teaching citizenship to our boys, let's keep with the prescribed process and not change the rules in the middle of the stream. Stosh

Then there's the problem of being 175# 6' even and 61 years old. I can't hold my own as much as I could when I was a lot younger. I can still get out but it takes me a lot longer to get from point A to point B. Philmont at age 50 was a real challenge. Training for that got me down to 165#. Maybe we ought to add old people to the list of those needing to get out of scouting. Stosh

There are times when we get a heads up warning about certain scouts that, more often than not, we either ignore or develop inappropriate pre-conceived ideas (self-fulfilling prophesy syndrome) about them. Now every kid reacts differently and each one must be addressed in a way they can understand. Having worked with kids for 40+ years now, I found that many times a little outside the box thinking goes a long way. My ex-wife said I never grew up, and that might be a good thing when it comes to working with kids, too. I had a WDL say to me (ASM) of the troop he was crossing over his kids to and identified one boy as a particular cut up. He had been "a handful" and that reputation was passed on by each succeeding DL. Well on the first day in the troop, the boys sat down for some orientation lecture, (Yeah, right, like the first time I heard it it was boring and didn't get any better each year either). Well I sat down next to this boy and simply said, "Hi, how's it going?" I got the usual grunt in response. I sat there with my arms crossed and eyes forward. Usually an adult sitting next to the "problem" kid was normal and the kid was no dummy. He eventually said, "I suppose you're the one who's supposed to keep an eye on me." I said, "Naw, I just gotta sit through this boring lecture just like you do." He sat quietly for the rest of the time. At the end, I leaned over and asked him if he was as bored as I was? He smiled, got up and walked away. Then he came back, and announced, "Mr. S, I like you, I'm gonna behave for you." He never gave a problem for the whole time he was in scouts. I remember soon after that one of the other leaders and he had a run-in. I sought him out and said, "I noticed you and Mr. P have a little tiff going on. I would appreciate it if you wouldn't bug him. He's got high blood pressure and if he has a heart attack because of you, then he'll go off to the hospital and die, and I gotta go tell his widow how sorry I am, I gotta go buy some flowers, take a evening off to go the funeral home, then take time off from work to go to the funeral, and then sign the visitor's book, and then there's a huge long process of finding a new scout leader and that's really boring, and the council.... and etc. and etc. and etc. I kept that up becoming more and more ridiculous until he smiled and said he wouldn't bug Mr. P either. He turned out to be a good kid and after only a couple of times he kinda bent the rules a bit, things went smoothly. There are a lot of discipline issues that can be avoided if one takes the time to lay the best ground work before hand. This is not slapping a set of behavior rules down in front of them to sign and counter signed by parents and SM, and everything is then okay until the kid screws up and you can kick him out. Heck, I wouldn't join a group like that, why would any kid? The ground work I'm talking about is getting to know the kid. Find out why he does the things he does. Why does he act up, problems at school? Home? Friends? Then mentor him, suggest things for him, but don't mandate and lay down the law. Either I have been VERY lucky over my lifetime or the kids that I worked with such as church youth groups, scouts of all ages, Cubs through Venturing, youth at risk, youth defined by the courts as juvenile delinquents, and institutionalized youth and I have had very few problems and most of them minor. Stosh

Wisdom from my mother: Little people talk about other people. Average people talk about things. Big people talk about ideas. Stosh

SPL needs to discuss this problem with the PL of the patrol that the offender is a member. The PL is responsible for the welfare and disposition of his patrol members. If he is unable to properly lead his boys, it's an issue that needs to be brought up in his (PL's) BOR when POS is discussed. No discipline is necessary. People are more important than things. The SPL, PL of the patrol of the offending scout and offending scout need to come to a consensus on how this situation originated and then how this is to be resolved. The harmed patrol is not to be part of the process other than to state that the situation has been satisfactorily resolved. I don't see why it is always necessary to jump to disciplinary measures before all the facts and issues are brought to light. Does one want to discipline a bullied scout who took retaliation on a bullying patrol? Obviously this post has bypassed investigation, trial, jury and gone right to execution of discipline, and who's job it is to do it. That's unfortunate. I find a lot of times that when one peels back all the layers of he said/she said, there's always an underlying motivation to the problem that isn't always apparent in the first place. Stosh

One of the advantages of having the Chaplain ordained is they tend to be savvy in traditions other than their own. Whether or not they act on that knowledge is another thing. As an ordained minister I have been called upon at times to do the camporee/summer camp worship service where there is a large mixed bag of differing traditions. If there are Muslims and/or Jewish boys present one does not want to offend anyone so prayers oriented to maybe Indian tradition, great Creator Spirit, or generic references like Creator God tends to be less offensive that praying in the Name of Jesus. Homilies should be generic focused on the Scout Law/Oath drawing supporting information from a variety of different traditions if possible. For some ordained clergy this can be a stretch, but it can be like running on broken glass barefoot for the layperson. In a group specific situation, i.e. LDS, this wouldn't be a problem for a layperson. But if you are at summer camp and the director sees Chaplain on the uniform, you may get tagged and it could get ugly real fast. Stosh