Stosh

While menus and food prep are a large part of the T-FC requirements for the boys in Boy Scouts, there is very little BSA expectations for Webelos to food prep/cook for themselves. A lot of reason why are already explained in the previous posts. I try for majorly simplistic that involves only one or two adults to prep. Brown hamburger well, add sloppy joe mix/sauce, hand out soft taco shells, scoop and you're done. Clean up is a single dutch oven and spatula. Foil dinners? Brown all hamburger and onions in dutch oven, boil cut up all potatoes and carrots, in large pot, drain and dump into dutch oven mix with hamburger. Hand out soft taco shells, scoop and you're done. Clean up is a dutch oven, pot and spatula. Breakfast... scramble eggs, precooked hashbrowns and bacon in dutch oven. hand out taco shells, scoop and you're done. Clean up is a dutch oven and spatula. See a pattern here? And, NO, I do not work for a taco shell company. I just got tired of dragging extra plates and utensils for all the boys that forgot theirs. For a change up, the pita bread works nicely as well. The boys always get to eat their "plates" and there are no other eating utensils required. Drinks? Gatorade powder for their water bottles. Desserts? cobblers of course. The boys will have plenty of time to learn how to plan, cook, and clean up meals that involve mess kits, utensils, cups, etc. when they get into Boy Scouts. Until then edible plates and clean hands work just fine. After 30 years of trying to eat some Boy Scout "meals", I still have a backup plan with hamburger patty, onion, ketchup and pita bread for a meal of my own all prepped in my mess kit. When I taught Webelos Overnighter training, I always taught these simple meals and with a staff of two teaching, the students were always amazed that these meals were suddenly there for them and eventually figured out our tag-team meal prep process. Too often Webelos leaders tend to over think, over plan and over do-it when it comes to outings and the food. It does not need to be that difficult and the boys do not need to be involved. They'll get plenty of that when they get to Boy Scouts. Stosh Oh, by the way, meal time gets cut to 30 minutes instead of 2 hours. That leaves an extra 1.5 hours for the boys to have fun with their dads, except for the two cooks. That may indeed by one dad/son combo that might enjoy the opportunity to do so. Stosh (This message has been edited by jblake47)

Welcome to the forum. I'm thinking from your post that you have been caught up in the grandiose management style of the BSA rather than real leadership. I have had Eagle scouts who fit into the loud and flashy and into the shy and reserved, both showing exceptional leadership. Management by directive, however, the flashy scout excelled and yet at times that management directive often times worked counter productive to his skills as a leader. Eventually he toned down his management directives and got far better leadership results with the boys. The shy Eagle, was more the caring, assisting, "how can I help you" style of management which worked well for his leadership. He was one of the best TG's I have ever seen. I don't think he would have lasted very long as an SPL, but as a PL/TG of younger boys he was fantastic. I always teased him as being a "mother hen", a title that he actually enjoyed and often referred to himself as. He did wonders for providing a constant supply of new scouts that would move up and take leadership positions in the troop with the ideals he lived by. He always started out as PL of the NSP and would quickly shift into TG once the boys got oriented to the troop. Each boy was thus instructed in PL responsibilities. What training did this shy boy receive? When I came into the troop he got only one instruction from me. "Take care of your boys." He said he could handle that, and he did very well as a strong leader in the troop. Even as the other boys progressed and took on leadership, they always came back to him for mentoring and assistance. Even while he was a bit weak on management skills, if the troop were to elect him as SPL he would have done an adequate job. He always turned down the nomination so he could be with the NSP. Stosh Oh, by the way, I forgot: Even after he got his Eagle (age 16) he did not want JASM, he wanted to keep doing what he was doing. How many troops out there had an Eagle scout for NSP PL/TG? (This message has been edited by jblake47)

Suggestion: I always trained my PL's to gather up their patrols away from the flag formation. They would line up, the PL would do a brief inspection of everyone (buttons buttoned, shirts tucked in, etc.) while reminding them that the flag ceremony is the most important thing we will be doing all evening long. Remind the boys that this is a time to show respect for our country and the veterans, especially the scouts, who went into the military to protect it and they deserve our utmost respect. This kind of sets the tone of one's expectations for the next few minutes. That means being quiet and listening to the instructions of the PL and SPL. Also remind them the other boys will be watching your patrol and if they do better than all the others it will be demonstrating leadership and showing your patrol is the best and they will need to improve to catch up (add a bit of gamesmanship to the process). Then do a grand march to your area for the flag ceremony. Always march back to the gathering area once the flag ceremony is completed and dismiss them and then tell them they can relax and enjoy the rest of the activities. This adds a sense of esprit de corps to your group. Be sure to thank them ("Very well done, gentlemen, you looked really good! Thank you!) for a job well done if they do it right. Otherwise offer a bit of critique, such as "we need a bit more quiet during the ceremony, otherwise everything went really well, Thank You!" or such until the unacceptable behavior is squelched. You are a team and the disruptions of one reflects bad on the whole patrol. Eventually every patrol member will police themselves. It's always better to spell out expectations and reasons for them BEFORE the bad behavior. This way you don't spend your time shushing them and causing further disruptions in the ceremony. If a leader does this, the boys will trust and respect the leader and will comply out of a sense of appreciation for such leadership. If they know you are looking out for them and working to make them the best, they'll follow you anywhere. Stosh

PatrolLeadler10 This issue sounds a bit like the mild bullying/management style of an overbearing SPL. In my troop the PL was the highest ranking POR in the troop. He was responsible for his patrol (patrol method) and the SPL was there to ASSIST him in his responsibilities, not dictate from the top how things are to be run in a patrol. If the SPL is going to run the patrols, then there is no reason to have PL's. It sounds like the SPL needs further training in what his role as guide/mentor means in the patrol-method program. Otherwise, dump the PL's and have the SPL try and run the whole show on his own. If it was me, I would not worry about being dropped as a a PL in this situation. As a matter of fact, life would be a lot easier being a patrol member and have someone else take the heat of the overzealous SPL. Hopefully next election, you can get someone in there who has real leadership, like you. I had an Eagle candidate scout pull a really stupid move and I stripped him of all POR and told him to show me what he's got in leadership skills. He said without a POR how was he going to be able to do anything. I just reminded him that real leadership doesn't need a patch. In fact, in the course of the next 6 months he really progressed the troop as a whole and proved his real leadership style. If you have the NSP, be sure to "rotate" the PL position and you as a patrol member, mentor and help them as you would do if you wore the patch. Guide the new boys in their leadership roles and quietly help them take the heat from the SPL. I always refer to the process as being a back-seat driver. While that might have a negative connotation, there is nothing in the world that a good back-seat navigator getting you through rush hour LA traffic. A supportive experienced leader in the ranks of the patrol will do wonders developing the kind of caring leadership you have described. Advancement in skills is important, but so is advancement in leadership skills and taking care of others and helping them along with their struggles. Stosh And in the long run, if the SPL complains to the SM about the PL of the NSP, he's not going to have a leg to stand on. Stosh Stosh

When I went away to summer camp my mother would hand me 5 pre-addressed, pre-postaged post cards. I was expected to write a little something on the left side and drop in the mail every day. Every night at supper I would write and drop off at the trading post on the way back to the site. Worked for me and worked for my kids. Writing home is something that should be between the parent and scout. I don't think it's the camp's, or troops' responsibility for the scout to be forcefully respectful to the parents. With cell phones, most kids talk to their parents too much anyway. A lot of kids today do not know their addresses because snail mail is not something they are accustomed to. Stosh

In a practical sense the republic idea would make sense, since the SPL would/should be working directly with the PL's to run the PLC. Why have an SPL that the PL's don't like or trust. Unfortunately the SPL is often viewed as "running the troop" which negates the need for PL's and patrol method. However if the SPL is supporting the work of the PL's in their patrols, I can see the PL's selecting the best person to do that. I have often viewed the SPL (if necessary) as PL of the virtual patrol of PL's (PLC). Stosh

It is already too much indoors. Stosh

Two things. 1) As soon as anyone defines a "destination" the journey is over. We see it with the hoopala at AOL and Eagle, but for a lot of people, all of life from Tiger on is a journey, even if that person doesn't continue to wear a uniform or pay the registration. I haven't put on a scout uniform for a month or two and yet every day, my journey of honesty, integrity, fun in the out-of-door, etc. all continue on. I have yet to reach a destination. Therefore I think the journey is more important than any destination because destinations always mark the end of things. 2) So we have a journey. Barry and I are 100% in agreement on the fact that the journey is too often not part of a boy's life. It is designed by adults doing their adult scouting program. I don't know of any scout that looks back fondly on the Citizen MB's or many of the other requirements established by BSA. Of course I'm not saying these things are not important, but what about all the fill-in time when the boys go camping, go on hikes, do a canoe trip, etc. where in fact they review these skills but it's part of the journey they have taken ownership in. As an example we have two boys not wanting to go to summer camp even if it's free. They haven't bought into the process, and I don't mean just the $$'s. They don't have an emotional commitment and have convinced themselves it carries no value for them. Yet if they were to have designed the summer camp experience, putting in the things they would enjoy, even with limited funds from the family's resources, they would have figured out how to get the money. The T-FC teach boys all the skills to take ownership of their own program, from setting up camp, to handing the finances, to cooking meals. So why don't the boys do it? SM says we're going to camporee for the umpteenth time. They are going to participate in fire starting for the umpteenth time, and do first aid for the umpteenth time. And when the boys want to go play sports, buy a car or chase girls, we can't figure out what went wrong with the program. It's the journey and the quality of the journey that is the important part. As I mentioned with the Flash Mob, there is no destination, only the journey and no one knows where it will be next month nor when. We meet tomorrow and we'll discuss what our options might be at that time while we kayak the lake and enjoy each other's company. The best example of how I see the problem?.... Boy starts in Scouting, all fired up, moves all the way up to Life by the time he's 13-14. Now he gets bored with scouting and baseball appears, cars, and girls, work and a dozen other things. BUT!... the destination hasn't been reached so after a 2-3 year hiatus, they come back do their Eagle project, get the rank for their resume and disappear back into the mist. Did I miss anything? Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

Eagledad, It might be instant gratification for that particular event, but with all the concerns about declining membership and disenchantment with the program floating around the forum, it is a very successful program that keeps people coming back time after time. Every camporee, outing, trip, etc. is instant gratification with the definition you are using. So I'm unsure of the point being made. The original point being if one has a worthwhile activity and it has an ongoing impetus, people will keep coming back for more of that "instant gratification". As long as people find value in what is happening, the event will perpetuate itself, that is a journey, but no one knows how long, or if it will continue and for sure there is no "goal" at the end of any rainbow out there. With BSA at age 18 there is a destination... oh, no wait, you can keep the journey going as an adult too. So I guess AOL, Eagle, etc. are just way-stations along the way. However AOL and Eagle are majorly touted as destinations and then everyone stands around scratching their heads wondering where everyone went. When we have boys that don't find value in a free week at summer camp, then there is something seriously wrong with the program. Obviously these boys don't envision any gratification/value or they would be going. Simply getting out of the house for a half day or weekend seems to spark the interest of these people. We have couples, families and single individuals participating so it seems to interest people of all ages and both genders. Whereas no expectations are placed on these people, they will put up with a bit of cold hands in the winter, blisters in the spring and fall, and getting a bit wet in the summer. So they get badges? No. Do they advance rank? No. Do they earn MB's? No. They just go, enjoy each others company and have a good time. Maybe if Scouting had more fun the journey would be a bit more valuable to the boys. Stosh

quawze, I don't know it it's really a matter of filling up the only spare time for the kids. I see them do double duty to get a spot on the baseball team, tremendous commitment for musical drum corps that travel all over the nation, etc. It has a lot to do with the value of what the kids get out of it that over-rides the hard-sell competition of their spare time. One does not need a lot of arm-twisting to get a kid into something that he's excited about. So this begs the question, why are these boys not excited about the opportunity to go to summer camp even for free? Is it the boys or is it the program? Unless one starts asking a lot of Why questions, one will never know. Stosh

I'm thinking it's the journey as well. Since I was forced into early SM retirement, I have had more time on my hands to pursue the very same things I was doing with the boys, only now I do it with an open-age co-ed group. I do kayaking, hiking, camping and cross-country skiing on a regular basis. I started at the beginning of the year with putting out announcements about a "Flash Mob" at a certain location for an activity. My wife and I were going and if anyone wanted to go along they could. Well since the first of the year, beginning with my wife and I, the group has now grown to about 25 participants. These are the very same people who are the parents of scouts and enjoy the activity but not the politics of an organized group. There are no rules, no charters, no fees, just show up. If it's an overnight, you can stay in a hotel, cabin, RV park, or camp. You're on your own for travel expense and meals. Surprisingly, people are showing up and we're having a great time. The point being with a "Flash Mob" the only destination is the starting point of the activity. There is no guarantee the program will last any longer than the last activity. What's the draw becomes the focal point that many in the BSA program often ignore. Basically we have fun. There is no advancement, no training (other than a newbie that shows up needs help in how to kayak or ski), but hiking is no big deal. While it is imperative that BSA has an important mission to develop well rounded adults, too often we forget the journey. A lot of lip service goes into the journey, i.e. Scouting must be FUN, but do they really take it all that seriously? Stosh

I have always laid it out for the boys. Being a kid is easy, once they grow up they have to figure out finances, health problems, marriage and family issues, buying a house, etc. etc. all of which are far more difficult than going out and learning how to do it in Scouts. I had one boy standing under the dining fly with me in a torrential downpour and he said he wished he were home. I said I was glad I was where I was because if I can live through that, I can live through anything. Every time we got rain from then on he would always say it was never as bad as it was that time we were under the fly, even at Philmont in a hail storm. Stosh

Eagle732, My comments were not intended to "stir the pot". The boys were offered a free week at camp and they turned it down. The question that remains open is: Why? The week was the only option and they didn't think it was worth it... for some reason unbeknownst to anyone other than the boys. There was no other option, just a free week at camp, that was a "take it or leave it choice." They chose leave it with no explanation. Everyone else at camp had a good time last year, but these boys didn't think it worth investing a week of their time to go back. Again, it begs the question, Why? Obviously the $$'s weren't an issue, so there is another reason. I can offer a huge, free bag of candy to someone and they turn me down. Looking at the fact that it was free is irrelevant. If I knew they were diabetic, I would understand and next time offer them something else for free and maybe I'd get a taker. If they didn't like chocolate, that might be another reason. Next time I'd get different candy, etc. I would seem from the title of the thread that the SM is trying to force a decision on a couple of boys that say, "Nope, not for me!" The SM wouldn't have posed the question not, "How to I force the boys to change their decision", to "Why would a boy turn down a free week at camp." to which everyone on the forum would have simply stated, "Go and ask them." This would imply that other alternatives might be in order. The Take it or Leave it choice of a free week at camp, just didn't cut it for these boys, WHY? What are they planning on doing the week the troop is at camp? Are their reasons valid? If they are into sports, okay, I can understand, If they are into video games, okay, I can understand. If the family is going on vacation that week, okay, I can understand, but all of these "understandings" are prefaced on the answer I get when I ask the question, Why? Stosh

Ever think the boys might be right? What was their experience at the first summer camp? After a week, they found it of no value, why would they on limited resources want to invest in it again? Ever think there are other scouting things the boys could be doing for the week other than summer camp? Maybe a "Here's summer camp. Take it or leave it", isn't the approach one might want to take. "Here's a week for scouting this summer, what do you want to do with it?" might be a more "valuable" question to be asking. Remember change doesn't come easily for a lot of people. However, opportunities (same thing different word) come their way all the time. If one has only one choice, it's not much of a choice. What other opportunities are there out there that would inspire change for the boys so that one doesn't have to force it? Stosh

I'm from Wisconsin, ... ever think that a poorly functioning SPL can be ousted in a recall election? Why would a troop want to suffer under poor leadership for 6 months just to prove a point? If the SPL is elected on popularity, then there should be a mechanism to remove him if he isn't doing the job. How many of the SPL candidates are actually vetted in these sham elections? Does the person making the nomination ever give reasons why they are being nominated or does just a name get tossed out there and the wink, wink process starts to roll? I have never had an SPL in a troop I was a SM of, don't see the relevance of the position until the troop gets up to 3+ patrols. In my former troop where I was ASM, the SPL was established by the SM having decided after talking with the other adult leaders. It was definitely an adult run program. Basically the boys wore the patch, got the credit, and did what they were told. Most of the time I find SPL to be a rather useless position for the troops I have visited in on. Election by popularity would make no difference. A troop of 8 boys doesn't need an SPL, yet there they are. Somehow the rumor out there says there has to be an SPL, yet in a vast majority of cases, I see no functionality to that rumor, but I do see, as in the case of this tread, counter-indicative reasons for such folly. Stosh

I'm a bit in agreement with Tampa. Too often we put all our eggs in one basket and when things don't work out it seems like a big disappointment. I have found that a diversified portfolio is the only way to go. There are no SM-pets in any of the troop I served. Everyone got the same training, opportunities, and development. That way if one boy bails on the program there are 2-3 others that can step in ready to go. If everyone has the same training the only variable is experience and the new boy taking over will start accumulating his own immediately. Stosh

Check to see if there are any other troops going that week that might have the same problem. I would also check to see if there might be a CampMaster who might be able to spend time in your site when the boys are there, too. Call camp and see if they have any ideas, I'm sure you are not the first one to ever face this problem. I went one year with only myself and there was another troop there with the same problem. We just moved in with them and the boys thought it was great to share the site with another troop. As a CampMaster one year, I also spent extra time with a troop that had only one leader that could attend. Stosh

Before doing the requirements. Does that mean just before? a year before? etc. And I don't think it is adding to the requirements to check it out. The MB is a program in a package, meaning it is a stand-alone process. It is not the responsibility of the MBC to accept information from outside the process prescribed in the MB book. If I was doing the MB, the first thing I would do is do a swim check regardless of any outside issues. I might know from his parents he's on the varsity swim team, but he still has to pass the BSA swim test as the book states. No more, no less. If the MB is being taught at summer camp, the boy can show he has passed his swim test, but if there is no record of him passing his swim test, there is justified reason for the MB counselor to test the boy. I would also have the MB counselor check the swimming ability of the boy on any partial MB completions. Anyone that balks on a swim test request will draw suspicion from me. Anyone who does not insist on testing under these kinds of circumstances is cutting corners on safety and the stated requirement. It just boils down to how much risk does one want to involve themselves in. Stosh

1) BSA CYA - One can look at all the minutia of the guidelines and for the most part it doesn't matter. The BSA has put out these guidelines for two very important reasons, the first being litigation and secondly the bad press that will result in an incident. Even if the scout leader is NOT at a scout event, it will be drawn up in the press! Not good for the PR of BSA and the possible resulting lawsuit if it IS at a BSA event. Either way the adult leader is screwed by any and all allocations. It might cost the BSA's insurance a bit of money, but it's going to cost you your reputation for life. 2. Self CYA - I have been around this issue for 40 years and stayed away from any and all impropriety whether it be BSA or not. As a counselor, leave the door open, have a witness near by. As a church youth leader of co-ed groups, be especially careful. BSA is probably the easiest to deal with because of the general quality of the participants, but even then keep a watchful eye. When I tutored in a confined institution for problem youth and the only training I got was, "Don't turn your back on anyone. I learned to have my chair always against the wall. Even when you see it coming at least you know when to duck. 3. Participants CYA - Are you aware of any abuse by another adult, bullying by peers, etc. etc. Is the participant safe even if they are not with you? So, am I concerned whether the word "shall" or "may" is used in the guidelines. Heck no, in a court of law that issue holds about as much water as a sieve. If one wishes to interpret and find loop-holes in the material, that's all well and good and makes for an excuse when they get into court, but chances are it's not going to make one iota bit of difference. Everyone takes risks and sometimes you get away with it, sometimes you don't. It's just a matter of how much risk you are willing to live with and how much time you are willing involve yourself in the risk. A well-known safety expert in a seminar stated that out of 330 risky behaviors, 300 times you will get away with it. 29 times you will be involved in an injury and 1 time you will be killed. While everyone ooohed and ahhed about that he took out a jar of candy and started passing it around. He stated that 300 pieces were candy, 29 were a strong laxative and one contained cyanide. How many people took candy? NONE. Yet those same people went out and sped up at the yellow light, drove a wee bit over the speed limit, associated with certain people in a risky situation and even went on a Scout event. The guidelines are spelled out not to indicate where the minimum amount of risk is, but a way to moderate away some of the risk. These guidelines are NOT going to keep people from getting into trouble, but they do go a long way to minimize the risk. In the end, the only thing that really enforces them is not the little certificate you get to print out at the end of the training session, or the check mark you get next to your name when you register as YPT trained, but how well you take the knowledge to heart and how much risk you are willing to live with in the long run. Like I said, 40+ years of working with you and I've still been blind-sided along the way by people simply raising the specter of impropriety. Figure out what your risk level is and then you will realize just how ineffective debating the vocabulary of the YPT guidelines really is. Stosh

I have always felt that the title Youth Protection is incorrect. I have always viewed this subject simply: "Never get yourself into court going up against a youth who's word carries more weight than yours." A few years back I walked to work. After getting there, the front desk called me down to the front entrance because I had a visitor. It was a police officer. I was taken outside and grilled for a half hour about me trying to lure some kid with candy to get into a car. This went around and around until we found a co-worker who had seen me walk to work and noticed a kid about a block away we assume to be the kid who had said something to the police. I finally was released to go back to work when I could prove I DIDN'T HAVE A CAR at the job site. It was 12 blocks away at the shop where it was being fixed. That's why I was walking. In this day and age I don't worry so much about Youth Protection in as much as I am more concerned about Self Protection. Everything in Youth Protection also protects me from fraudulent accusations by some disgruntled youth. Sorry for being so blunt, but this philosophy has kept me out of most situations, see above. Stosh

If the program is designed to help youth become productive citizens and great leaders, I really don't see the point of only cherry picking the low fruit. If anyone really wishes to look closely into the BSA program in the medium of it's initial stages in America, one ought to read the Tom Slade books commissioned by the BSA back in the early years of BSA. There are also a number of other books cited by Matthiews, (first BSA librarian) on many of these same dynamics associated with this thread. Yes, BSA is in the business of helping these kids. The success rate is often times less than the cherry picked low fruit, but passing up on the potential excellent/exceptional leader is not a decision to be expediently discarded. Stosh

Can a toxic scout be turned around? Yes, I have seen it happen many times over the years. And as a result, the re-channeled efforts often times create some neat things for the troop. If a boy spends X amount of energy fighting the system, it is a real handful, if that boy re-channels that energy into working with the system, it's quite a thing to experience. Stosh

I'm with Gunny on this one. Where's the QM in all of this? I'm thinking that if there was a function QM in every patrol this wouldn't have happened in the first place. Running around collecting up the cows after the barn door has been opened is always going to be a mess. Get some functional QM's in the troop, and hold them responsible for taking care of their patrol's gear. After all they call it a Position of Responsibility for a reason. This is not an issue for anyone other than the patrol QM's, the troop QM and if he needs help sorting things out, the SPL. This is the type of thing that is going to naturally occur when POR's are not functional and are looking only for advancement, not actually doing the work. Stosh

"Hey, Wally, have you seen Eddie?" "No, Beav, not since he joined the Boy Scouts." Stosh

Be Prepared.... Kinda makes one wonder. Stosh