Stosh

I've seen some pretty good sized Eagle-mill troops that wouldn't want to be involved in either. I don't think the size is the issue, I'm still sticking on the quality of how the scouters deals with the boys. Scouter-Leaders vs. Scouter-Teachers is my yard stick. Stosh

My first observation when visiting any troop would not so much be the numbers than what I see happening. I have seen well run large and small and poorly run large and small. A lot of it has to do with the training of the adults and even more importantly the training of the scouts. Generally speaking, what I would be looking for would be how well organized is the structure of the troop. Patrol method? or hodge-podge mix and match for convenience. This usually occurs more in the small troops that find it difficult to come up with numbers for an event. The larger troops with no patrol structure can be strongly adult led and that would concern me as well. Lots of boys with lots of POR patches, but no one actually functions in those roles. If I walked into the troop meeting as a visitor with my son, I would be interested in how fast my son left my side. If he was shy, did the boys come get him and get him involved in their meeting? or did he hang out with the adults looking for information? Who was running the show? Boys or adults? Who was doing all the talking? I would hold in the back of my mind what I would expect for my son and check those things off as I saw them demonstrated or at least has the potential for. If you want a son with strong leadership skills, he needs to be in a troop that does not have strong adult directive because those two issues are mutually exclusive. After the first contact, find out if your son made any new friends at the meeting. If the only new friend is the SM, then I'd have a red flag going up. No troop is going to be ideal no matter what it's size. A good troop is one based on a certain environment for leadership and learning. That could be one patrol or 5 patrols. Being a good PL of a troop of 8 boys (1 patrol) is just as good as being an effective SPL of a large troop of 5 patrols. Both positions are out there with very little safety net and the boys are going to learn great leadership skills. Go for quality, not quantity. Stosh

Hi James, Welcome to the forum. I'm on the Boy Scout side of things, but hopefully there's some CM's out there that will be interested in your offer. Stosh

I just remind them that kissing an underaged girl with her shoes off is considered statutory rape in some states, and by the girls' father in all the rest. Stosh(This message has been edited by jblake47)

"But perhaps you will be pleased--- six months or so ago I removed the flag that had become tattered in that service, and I haven't replaced it ---- yet, anyway. Does that make you happy? I ask that as a serious question, since the alternative would be flying a replacement flag 24/7." Okay, I'll give it a try, and I so so seriously. You took down a tattered flag and haven't replaced it yet. (Not a question, just a statement of fact.) "Does that make you happy?" If I were in your neighborhood, it would please me that I wouldn't have to look at a tattered flag, so in that respect I would think taking it down a good idea. But as I said, making me happy shouldn't be the reason for displaying or not displaying the flag. You haven't replaced it yet. Maybe you need to order one, or you haven't had time yet to go buy one, I can understand the delay in getting a new one up there. The tag line of logic at the end is confusing to me: "since the alternative would be flying a replacement flag 24/7." I guess I don't understand why a replacement flag would have to be flown 24/7. One could if it were lit and an all-weather flag. If I were looking for a replacement, that's the kind I would purchase. I have a flag that flies on a short staff next to my front door. I put it up in the morning on the way to work and take it down, when it gets dark. I just don't want to leave my front door light on all night and it doesn't properly light the flag anyway. It's a nylon flag so if it rains while I'm at work, no big deal. As a scout leader, I try and make every effort to teach the US Flag Code correctly in the hopes that it inspires the scouts do display it in a respectful way. If they don't, that's their choice. I hope this answers your question. Stosh

As I commented before, the issue here is not to please me, but to adhere to the principles of the US Flag Code. I'm not being judgmental, just pointing out what the Code states as respectfully proper. As one can tell from FScouter's son's reaction, if we do not teach properly, then unwanted circumstances can and often do result. If one has a tattered flag, it is better to display none than to think that displaying a worn flag is better than none. Personally I do like the idea of not flying a ragged flag as more respectful than putting up one that does not look good. Most officers of the law do not pull over people for speeding 1 to 5 mph over the speed limit. Just because the law is not properly enforced does not mean it is acceptable to speed. The safety of the people in the car are just as important. Just because one does not get a speeding ticket doesn't mean that death and/or injury inflicted in an accident while speeding is okay because the law wasn't enforced. Just because there are no penalties enforced does not mean it is okay to ignore the prescribed laws. We are supposed to be a tolerant people. However, that doesn't translate into a lot of different areas of our lives. That in itself quite disconcerting. The bending of the rules might be as simple as showing respect for our Flag and as complicated as endangering people in traffic. Some battles are more important than others. One has to pick which are more important than others. If someone doesn't take their hat off when the Star Spangled Banner is being played, it shows either ignorance or indifference. That's their problem/choice, not mine. As a citizen of a free nation, I am accountable only for my own actions. Everyone else can make up their own minds. Stosh

> I would agree that the flag code shows one scheme for displaying the flag in a respectful manor. As I noted earlier, I took my own survey among veterans that I encountered, and most said they thought it was more important to display the flag than to take it down at night. But perhaps you will be pleased--- six months or so ago I removed the flag that had become tattered in that service, and I haven't replaced it ---- yet, anyway. Does that make you happy? I ask that as a serious question, since the alternative would be flying a replacement flag 24/7. The US Flag Code might be one of many schemes, but it is the only one designated by Congress as the proper one. There were many schemes prior to 1923, and it was decided at that time to designate one, which Congress did. I also know a lot of veterans, many which understand the military ethics of the US Flag, and yet don't always know the US Flag Code for civilians. Other veterans are quite aware of the US Flag Code and follow it diligently. It is also good to note that the US Flag Code has changed many times over the years. The point of this thread is not to make me happy. Do I get upset with others when they don't follow the Code? Not very often, As I stated before people don't follow the Code for one of two basic reasons, #1 They don't know the code or #2 They don't care, they just do what they want and don't worry about it being done respectfully. That is not meant to be judgmental, just an observation. Stosh

While BSA24 is correct in his interpretation of people can display their own flag in any manner they wish it is because there is no penalty for doing so. However, the US Flag Code was initiated because there were many ways various organizations were displaying and a lot of them differed from one another. It was the definitive answer on how to display the flag to show proper respect. Of course, one can display the flag any way they wish, but if they wish to do so showing proper respect, the US Flag Code says how it is done. Now that means nothing to some people, but we live in a free country so they can do anything they wish with the flag. Whenever I see a flag displayed contrary to the US Flag Code it means one of two things, 1) Ignorance of the Code, or 2) an attempt to display disrespect for the Flag. I tend to go with option #1 unless it is explained to me I should be considering #2. I see people of certain heritage flying their secondary flag under the US Flag. The "Rebel" flag is just fine there as far as I'm concerned, but someone of Norwegian heritage flying the national flag of Norway UNDER the US Flag causes me concern. It may emphasize their respect for their heritage, but according to international codes, it show great disrespect. Flying the Flag upside down or under another flag is just ignorance at best, otherwise, disrespect. As one who has both the US Flag and Confederate Battleflag displayed in my living room, both are displayed with a Don Troyiani reprint of the unit my great-great-grandfather served in during the war. No one ever visiting has ever questioned my feelings towards minorities. Respect is respect depending on the context it is portrayed in. Now, if one wishes to emphasize the modern definition rather than historical context, fine, that's their choice, not mine. An acquaintance of mine from India told me that yesterday, he was a lot more gay today because he was able to stop at the fag shop on the way to work. To him it made perfect sense and I was glad he was a lot happier today having been able to stop and buy smokes on the way to work. Stosh

The Stars and Bars is NOT the Rebel Flag. The Rebel Flag was the battleflag made famous by the Army of Northern Virginia under the command of Robert E. Lee. It was never recognized as a "confederate flag". The Stars and Bars was the official national flag of the Confederate States of America and consisted of a blue union (just like the US Federal flag) with 13 stars and 3 wide stripes, one red on top, one white in the middle, and another red at the bottom. It looks remarkably like the new Georgian state flag. They replaced the rebel flag emblem on their state flag with the official Stars and Bars of the Confederacy and 98% of the people quit complaining. Isn't ignorance of history really handy at times? Officially it was the First National Flag of the Confederacy. It became confusing on the battle fields of the Civil war because it could be easily mistaken for the Stars and Strips from a distance. The Second National Flag of the Confederacy was the St. Andrews cross emblem (the battle flag, if you will) in the Union and the rest of the flag was white. This was referred to as the Sterling Banner. As the flag was 3/4's white it was often mistaken for a flag of truce, and so a wide red strip was put vertically along fly end of the flag. This Third National Flag never made it to the battlefields until very late in the war. Most of the St. Andrew Cross flags were square, only the naval union jack and ANV flags were rectangular like the modern "Rebel Flag" of today. Confederate units could carry any battle flag it wished with it's national colors, many preferred the square St. Andrew's Cross, but far more picked something else, like the "Bonnie Blue Flag" of South Carolina. Stosh

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe that the Flag can be displayed 24/7 if it it lighted and can be flown in bad weather if it is an all-weather flag, i.e. nylon. I know from experience that a cotton flag will not hold up to the elements for a year and begins to look a bit tattered well before the annual replacement. Stosh

With everyone worrying about the older boys leaving one has a couple of options: 1) Keep with the same old, same old so that the bored older boys are guaranteed jumping ship just as soon as they are able. 2) Have your Eagle take on PL of the HA Venture Patrol that is extremely autonomous and focused on a program designed by them for themselves. This is rather self-focused, but if it keeps the boys in the program it has some merit. I'm a 14 year old Eagle, but next year I want to go to BWCA, the year after Sea Base and the year after that Philmont before I turn 18. Yeah, there's a "problem" for you as adults! "That's going to cost a ton of money, but I bet if you help the younger boys with their program, I bet they will jump in and help out with your fund raisers...." There are a lot of options out there that the adults can offer up to assist the boys' focus on more than just themselves. 3) Have them run the whole show as top leaders in your troop with SM and ASM's sitting in the wings to assist. Instead of having a troop committee run everything have a "committee of boys" running everything. The troop committee of adults can sit back and monitor and assist with what the boys are up to. Personally, I would shy away from option #1. If one opts for #3, make sure you're boys have really earned their Eagle and are capable of doing what is expected of them as Eagles. Stosh

The system I had started out with the patrols planning out their calendar for the year. Got it all down on paper and then the PL's sat down and reconciled into one troop calendar. If a patrol wasn't interested in coming up with it's own activites it had to settle for what the other patrols wanted. If a patrol did extensive planning, they usually got what they wanted for the year. This did not mean that all the patrols had to agree on one single troop calendar. If the older boys wanted to go to high adventure and the rest just wanted to go to summer camp, Then two trips were planned. There was general consensus on camporees, etc. and those were done as a troop, Other things were done as patrols. The NSP did a lot of requesting of older boys' time for instruction, etc. but that duty fell to the Instructor POR so it didn't really interfere with the activities of another patrol. This really solved the problem of older boys wanting more excitment other than the 20th trip to the same summer camp. This system grew out of a bad summer camp experience and the boys taking the reins and getting a different camp lined up the following year. It ended up about 2/3rds of the activity I would consider all patrol activities, i.e. troop activities, and 1/3rd individual patrol activities where they went their separate ways and did their own thing. Stosh

When I had NSP boys at summer camp, I went down to the trading post and picked up lanyard of yellow, red, white and blue. When I caught a boy doing something right, he got a 6" piece lanyard which he looped through the button hole of the right picket so with a larks head knot, hung down over the temp patch. First time he got yellow. If I saw something again by the boy, it upgraded to red, then to white and finally blue. Of course, if they did something that necessitated discipline, there was no screaming and yelling, I just dropped the level of color one or two depending on the infraction. At first the boys were satisfied with just getting the colors, but when everyone was sent off to tents after campfire, the boys with white and blue got an extra half hour at the fire, then it took on a whole new drive. Who would have thought that a piece of lanyard hanging from the temp patch pocket would have such a profound affect. Two of the 6 boys had their blue lanyard still on their shirt at their ECOH. The program was used only the first year when they were new scouts. Stosh

I didn't want to hijack another thread, but a comment was made that got me thinking, how much personalization/customization is okay within the prescribed uniforming of the BSA. There are troops out there that wish to express their uniqueness and individual scouts within those troops do as well. There are practical reasons for proper uniforming as well. Because my boys always wore full uniforms, from a distance they all looked the same. Except for size, it was often difficult to tell who was who. As other troops went to full uniforms, my boys adopted a 6' walking stick. That allowed me to tell my boys from the rest. It had a 1" hook on the end of the stick and it was always easier as I walked around to all the MB sessions and see all the staffs hanging from tree branches outside the entrance. I didn't know who the boys were, but I knew where they were. However, the boys were allowed to customize and personalize their staff so as to be easily recognizable when mixed up with the others. Carvings, grips, medallions, paint and wood burning were the norm. But with being boy-led, knowing the officers was important, too. So they all purchased the expedition hat with lg 1st Class emblem on it. They stood out from the rest of my boys. But then there were a lot of those hats so the SPL wore a white necker with 3 green stripes on it and PL's 2 green strips, and APL's 1 green stripe. From a distance one couldn't always tell even those stripes so the SPL also carried a bright yellow flag on his 6' staff and the PL's had their patrol flag on their staff. The background on the patrol flags were all different colored, too. From few hundred yards I see a boy in partial uniform - not one of mine. Full uniform but no staff - again, not mine. Full uniform, with staff, expedition hat and white necker, one of my APL's! Full uniform, with staff, expedition hat, white necker and colored flag on staff, PL (Color would let me know which patrol). Full uniform, staff, exp. hat, white necker and yellow flag - That's my SPL. All in acceptable full uniform, yet unique enough to even tell from a distance generally who was who. At Jambo, I had SPL and ASPL carry a staff with green bar/white flags. They never carried them and the other leaders were tearing their hair out always trying to find them. When they asked me I always told them, they must be in their tent because that's where the flag was. When the boys came out of one of the major venue shows, it was a mass of humanity and the boys would follow ME out because I carried my staff high over the crowd and they could keep tabs. I would have preferred having the SPL doing his job with his banner instead of relying on the adults to babysit them. Stosh

I'm old school: Privates - Cubs Corporals - DL's and ADL's Sgts - MC 1st Sgt - CC Lt. - COR Capt. - IR Capt - sets the expectations LT - puts those expectations into motion and translates to the NCO's 1st Sgt. working with his Sgts, puts the plan in action Corporals - works with the privates to make it happen. Stosh Stosh

dennis99ss, I know that Basementdweller might have turned you off to his blunt comments/questions, but they hold a lot of merit. We had a problem with summer camp with the boys not "getting what they want" out of the program and complained a lot after camp finished. So much for our local council camp. Anyway, I basically dumped it back into their laps and told them there are hundreds of camps all over the U.S. Get on the internet and find one you like and we'll go there next year. Well, they did. They found the camp that promised them exactly what they wanted and it was only an hour and a half away being run by a council from out-of-state. I had never heard of it before, but the boys signed up, did all the paperwork and we went there. The camp came through with what they promised. They loved it and as far as I know they are still going back there every year. As an adult I was genuinely concerned that this was pretty much out of my hands because I let them have free reins. The little voice in the back of my head kept telling me that if things went awry, at least I could tell the parents it was the boy's fault. Basement is right, get the boys involved, let them get ownership of the process, and stand in the wings in case some stumbles so you can pick them up, dust them off and toss them back into the mix. Stosh

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am under the impression that each Lodge is pretty autonomous anyway. Why haven't they made changes that they think will benefit their lodge? The lodge I am associated with does very little if anything. Getting on the mailing list for the newsletter is more difficult than the Ordeal. If the lodge has become ineffective, then maybe they ought to figure out how to get it fixed. The only thing that is stopping them is the phrase, "We've never done it that way before!" Stosh

I don't know why one would consider this trolling. There are weight restrictions in place by BSA, especially when it comes to certain activities like Philmont. Who knows how far BSA plans to reach on this subject. Stosh

As one who is not a colored person, I have never been on their short list for contacts. I'm wondering what color white is? Oh, yeah, it's all colors of the spectrum. So much for another poor analogy from the physicsly impaired. Thanks for the update. Stosh

Same for drinkers and those who use drugs including prescription drugs that are abused. Hmmm, divorcees don't set a very good example for the boys.... Traffic offenders risk the safety of our boys every time they get behind the wheel with boys in their car/truck. I could probably put together a list long enough to keep just about any adult from ever being considered for BSA membership..... Stosh

I don't wish to sway the thread towards the political, but one must always remember there are those who simply like to stir the PC issues until everyone is basically dissatisfied. Boy Scouts technically, by title and definition, should be for boys. Nope, the gals want in. Societies for the promotion of woman's issues doesn't really appreciate men in their ranks. NAACP doesn't recruit many whites, KKK definitely doesn't recruit minorities, Catholics, etc. etc. etc. Adults get "kicked out" of participating in any program when they turn 18, of course they can be a leader, but that has huge amounts of restrictions placed on it. There are thousands of groups out there that prefer that certain others are not "welcomed" to participate. They may allow one to participate, but the message: "your really not one of us" permeates most discussions. BSA is not unlike every other organization out there. It's just that it is a national movement of notable recognition. Therefore it becomes a great target for everyone with a political agenda to make waves. Why doesn't any of these groups just start a Homosexual Boy Scouts of the USA? Or Co-ed Scouting, or Family Scouts, or something like that? Why do they need to hijack someone else's program? They want the perks but they don't wish to work for them. OA is a sub-program of BOY Scouts of America. Just leave well enough alone. I would love to see a sub-program of Venturing designed specifically for the needs of co-ed groups rather than try to put a square peg in a round hole. The BSA has limited resources, it ought to be putting them into making what they do best, be the best. All of these distractions are really not worth watering down a great program. Stosh

My commissioner's uniform has the council strip, commish patch and silver loops. That's it. I think I have it all covered. Stosh

DeanRx, Here's my take on your situation. Take the time with your son to review each of these issues and allow him the opportunity to evaluate how next time those items can be resolved before the event, i.e. assign someone as a patrol QM who will bring a small bottle of soap for the patrol box, etc. Ask your son how he will be handling his advancement in the future when others are "too busy" to help out at camp-outs. Spend some time with your son on how to address older scouts and scout leaders in a positive, but effective way. The NSP was ready for the Totin' Chit, and the SM was not responsive. The NSP should have approached him, not a parent. Have they been "trained" in how to follow up with adults? As an adult, you know the ropes of life, but these kids do not. Your role as parent is to teach the ropes to the boys, not do it for them. Otherwise they will never learn. Your boy did well to take up the KP when everyone else abandoned them for the campfire. Shows some early signs of good servant leadership. I would address the issue of food safety to your son and work with him in understanding the importance of doing it right. Even if he's not on KP or cooking, keeping a helpful eye on his patrol buddies will go a long way in keeping himself from food-borne illnesses. Another important aspect of servant leadership. As far as the advancement issues and adding to the requirements, i.e. in full uniform instead of "dressed for the outing". Are issues that your son can bring up at a scoutmaster's conference which he can ask for at any time. Sooner the better. I am sure he's not the only one experiencing this problem and when he addresses the issue with the leadership, he is speaking for more than himself. Again, more servant leadership. "With all due respect, Mr. SM, I fulfilled the requirement for XXXX and I was told that they were too busy to sign off. Is this the accepted policy/tradition of the troop? If not, what might you suggest to assist me with this problem." 1) it solves problems your son may be experiencing, 2) solves same problem others might be experiencing, and 3) gives a valid reason for your son to interact with the adults of the troop. I would suggest to your son he approach the PL when he is not as busy and have him sign off on the requirement before calling for an SMC. The problem may resolve itself at that point. The issues you point on in your latest post are how After Action Reports work! Each one of these issues needs to be evaluated by the boys, not the parents on the forum. Issues that evoke strong feelings normally have the appropriate energy to deal with them. However, if that energy is dissipated elsewhere, the issues doesn't get resolved. What you have identified are great AAR issues that your son and his patrol need to resolve before the next outing. If done correctly, the boys will be one step closer to a great outing. If your son adopts this process after every outing, he's on his way to becoming a great SPL/Eagle. Also, it's to all of these new boys and new PL, an opportunity to work things through to come up with solutions that work for their patrol. Sounds like a great growth opportunity for your son. Stosh

I have often wondered what the percentage breakdown politically the 1% really is. I'm thinking whatever the number is, it's going to surprise most people. If Morgan Freeman can give Obama a $1,000,000 campaign contribution, I wonder where a Dem gets his hands on that kind of dough? Stosh

With all the discussion on leadership, one has to stop and wonder what that really means. Leaders lead people. A person that can't take care of themselves is going to have a very difficult time taking care of others. Their leadership potential is zip! Only when the boys learn to care for their own responsibilities will they be able to take on the added task of responsibility for others. Every time an adult "steals" the opportunity for a boy to learn, grow, and develop on their own, they are keeping them from becoming real leaders. How much guidance? Assisting them into critical thinking, empowering them to take on responsibilities, allow them opportunities to plan ahead and think beyond the current moment are all part of this process. Every adult that directs the boys, forces them to follow, not lead! Every adult that does it for the boys, teaches them that if they sit on their hands long enough someone else will pick up the slack. That is NOT leadership! Every mixed age grouped patrol has the older boys doing everything for the newbies, but it isn't until the newbies become the old-hats, will they ever have the opportunity to truly lead. Leadership begins with taking care of others, the buddy system taught at the Tenderfoot rank. Everything after that should enhance that initiation. To think that a 16 year-old is going to morph into a fantastic leader automatically at that age is ridiculous. It's a process, not an event! Every SM should be kicked out of their troop because the boys were having to do too much leadership on their own. Every SM/adult that thinks they are there doing it for the boys, is there for all the wrong reasons. Stosh