Stosh

I have three uniform shirts. 1) UC - Silver loops, council patch and UC patch. That's it. 2) Camp shirt - If it isn't going to fall off or I'm not worried about getting it wrecked, it may be on there. I think the temp patch on it is dated 1993. 3) Bells and Whistles shirt - Everything on it and up-to-date. Wear it for ECOH's only. The biggest pain to have is the Bells/Whistles shirt. - too much work to really keep up. Laundry is a nightmare - take off all the service pins/medals/nametags/knot devices, etc. and then put them all back on. It's really not worth it to impress others when you can't even impress oneself. Did I upgrade to the new centennial uniform for the Bells/Whistles shirt? In your dreams! I generally wear my WB beads because they are pre-21 Century, but then only I know that.... Stosh

Librarian, Webmaster, and Historian are just made up PORs so that the lazy kids can get their Eagle. All of those responsibilities could be slipped under Scribe and no one would ever notice because no one really does any of them anyway. In my former troop the Librarian kept track of old MB books that were outdated, but for 6 months he knew where the box was. Big deal. My last historian did a really nice scrapbook of the Centennial Jamboree. He collected up digital copies of all photos taken by the boys put together and printed out. It was obvious from the quality of work it was put together by his parents. "But..." you say? He could have done it? Yeah, but when I asked him about any of the pictures and who they were from, what scrapbook program he used, how long it took him, where he got the scouting clip-art, etc. - I got a deer-in-the-headlight look. I have expected and got more responsibility out of my buglers than I do my Librarians and Historians. I had a Chaplain Aide that had a prayer and devotional for every meeting, led a Bible study (all the boys were Christian) at summer camp and encouraged the boys to work on the Religious Awards. He did more work than most PL's. Stosh

I found that setting years and category limits to be too vague. I found some 12 year old scouts more mature than 18 year old scouts. Heck, I've found some scouts more mature than their parents. I'm thinking ages and stages don't always match up very well. Stosh

I solved the problem of lazy POR's by not assigning them. They were to journal any work they did towards their 4/6 month requirement and present it to the BOR to see it it's enough. If a patrol wanted a boy to be PL, so be it, he recorded his time and efforts. If a boy took on the task of inventorying the troop gear, he recorded his time and efforts, etc. Usually at the SMC I would review their journal, and basically inform them when they asked if it was enough, - "I hope so." The boys were measured on work, not time when it came to POR's. Stosh

How long is this thread going to run so I know when I have to jump in... Stosh

I've dealt with kids from public, private and home schooling and they all vary within each category. There are no hard and fast rules when it comes to kids. I have had 2 experiences with boys identified in this thread, neither were home schooled. As mentioned, it has more to do with parental attitudes than it does with the boys. I had to drop the "A Scout is Courteous" bomb on the boys a couple of times when they treated their parents in an inappropriate manner, but when they realized I meant it, they backed off. The parents of one of the two boys said he carried that back into his home life and they were very appreciative. I never heard from the other boy's parents, the boy dropped after a few months. Stosh

While a parent doing the unregistered helping out here or there for the boys is one thing, people always take the risk of negative litigation. However, getting the training, registering and getting one's i's dotted and t's crossed, means they fall under the liability insurance of the BSA. That's a couple of million in "peace of mind" that goes a long way in today's society. It would be interesting to know if a SM is protected from negligence if he allows an unregistered, no YPT trained parent to go on a trip and there's an improper situation involved? I guess I'm a bit like Sentinal947, I really don't want to stick around and find out. Stosh

I have often wondered what would happen if there weren't any training requirements to be a doctor, lawyer, banker, teacher, etc. I guess I'm not all that impressed with the untrained trying to make things work just because they got a boy in the program and don't want to disappoint him. Some get away with it for a short time because of natural charisma, but that can only last for a while. Then what happens when the unregistered, untrained Treasurer walks off with the $$$$? Or the unregistered SM is accused of abuse? The BSA isn't even going to toss you a life-jacket in that case. Not a road I would wish to be walking. Sure there are hundreds of ways to get around the rules, but just remember following them is still an option, too. This forum is filled with the molestation comments and how to deal with them, and then in the same breath, are throwing out suggestions on how to deal with adults that won't take a few minutes to take the YPT on-line. Stosh

Ever consider using the Patrol Method and having the boys pick up the heavy lifting in the troop? Any troop of 60 active boys will either have a huge cadre of ASM's and a burned out SM, or they will start getting the boys involved in the function of the troop rather than just stand-by participants. This is a case of shooting oneself in the foot and then suffering the consequences of their own making. If this situation is painful, try something else. Anything else! It's got to be better than what is going on presently. What is described here is what happens over and over again in troops throughout the country. No one adult, no matter how well supported, can handle huge numbers of boys. Highly paid professional teachers will all tell you 15-20 is a heavy load. SM's no matter how well trained, just aren't going to pull it off for very long. Burnout is inevitable in this situation. Your best leaders are your boys! Use them as they are supposed to be used, let them lead. Stosh

With all the talk about outdoor skills, how many present day adults could go out into the woods with nothing but what they could carry and how long would they survive? I don't think BSA ever would consider that in terms of it's programming, yet BP would have or he would never have used the term scouts to identify the youth to whom he was targeting his program. A military scout would be part of a small group that would operate behind enemy lines independently of the main body of the army. They would need to skills to be totally self-sufficient and organized well enough to complete an operation. How does that fit into 90% of what BSA is promoting for youth today? Modern scouts cannot maneuver behind enemy lines without the general and his aide (many times full staff). Of course an extensive supply line and advanced communication technology have managed to keep the scouts from ever consider going beyond into the unknown to probe the enemy out there. Today's scouts never leave the command post/HQ. Where's the adventure in that? Better yet, ask yourselves what the general knows or doesn't know about what a scout is supposed to do, let alone train him to do it. Stosh

I have hiked the Ice Age Trail and the Appalachian Trail, I have put in 100+ miles of kayaking and at least 80 days of camping this year. The vast majority of people I meet tend to be 40+ in age. There's a whole generation out there that isn't into the out-of-doors and of course they have no intention of passing along any nonexistent legacies of their past non-interests. Sports is the closest thing to being out-of-doors for most parents, and thus their children are encouraged to follow in their foot-steps. The all-state football quarterback who has never slept in a tent isn't going to encourage his sons to be Scouts. Those parents who have allowed Sesame Street and other electronic media raise their kids will not be interested in getting their computer/cell phone addicted kids out into the wilderness either. Scouting has made a few attempts to go with the flow of society, but they are hawking a product that the vast majority of people don't really want for their kids. If Scouting is out there to develop well adjusted, independent, capable adults, why are so many kids living at home well into their late 20's and early 30's? Kids today really don't have to grow up and not many parents are complaining about it either. Stosh

Regardless of the outcome, one can tell from the situation and the resulting fallout, that it might not be a bad idea that when you buy from any scout in front of any store, you march right in, find the manager/owner and thank them for having the scouts out front! I've been doing it for years. I don't know if it makes a difference, but it makes me feel good. Of course if the scout is in proper uniform (boy or girl either one) they are guaranteed a sale even if it's overpriced popcorn or cookies. HOWEVER, NEVER, NEVER NEVER, if you live on a street where no girl scouts come around to sell cookies, do you call up the GS office and announce that any Girl Scout selling cookies in their uniform will be guaranteed a sale, then give them your name and address. Did the girls show up? No, but the police did. Stosh

Hmmmm, how the world has changed. Twitter/Facebook account? My mom always would ask: "Is what you are doing something that's going to look bad for you if it shows up on the front page of the local newspaper?" Heck, you can be 8 years old and understand how that works. I don't know what one would compare that to in today's electronic world. Stosh

Penalized for doing it correctly by blind-siding parents? One is going to see more and more of that in the years to come. Parents aren't paying all this money for their lazy son to miss out on the Eagle Scout resume reference. It used to be a scout earned the Eagle rank, now it can be accomplished and/or paid for by their parents. Once one gets to the point where it is no longer worth it to waste time with such nonsense, it's time to move on with one's life. As long as one feels there are one or two deserving boys out there, that may be enough justification to hang in there. Otherwise, there are other options out there that are just as valuable to a person as scouting. Only you can make that call. I still have a loose connection to BSA as a UC, but this summer alone, I have earned the 50 miler twice. Both times, I often thought how many boys could have benefited from it. No longer my call, but it's a shame nonetheless. Stosh

Why are you wasting everyone's time? Followed directly by: What's the Scout Motto? Stosh

If you start from day one with training leadership there should be no hiccup when the older boys age out. What most often happens is when a good leader comes along the troop begins to rely on them to lead, but not train. Every boy needs to be training their replacement! The young SPL should take the position now with the older SPL training him, etc. for every PLC position. This is the trap adult led troops fall into, the adults never train their boys to lead and even with the boy led troops, the older boys never train the younger ones to lead. When the boys inevitably age out, there is a vacuum in leadership until the younger boys get up to speed and they have to do it without any older boy's mentoring. One would think after a while troops would figure this out, but unfortunately they never seem to get over myopic traditions. Stosh

It's all a matter of prioritizing. There are 24 hours in a day and I'd say about 2-3 of them are totally wasted. If one gets the waste out, that leave plenty of time for everything else that is more important. This might sound made up, but it's not: I have an unemployed, recovering alcoholic, ex-con, sex offender, brother-in-law living in my home. As guardian for my 85 year old father who can't get into a nursing home, I'm trying to set up 24/7 in-home care at a nursing home level for him. I am married, no kids at home, but 7 all over the country. Two married children with spouses are coming to visit this weekend. I have 4 cats and 2 dogs. I work full-time, do community volunteer work, scouts, reenacting and a ton of activities with the wife. I got in a national reenactment as an officer (more work than toting a gun and being told what to do) and a 50+ mile kayak trip in this summer/fall. Anyone says that they don't have time for something, it means they prefer to waste time than figure out how to pitch in and do it. Yep, and I have time to waste doing posts on this forum. Of course I'm supposed to be cleaning the house..... Sorry, I haven't the patience to deal with people that are "too busy" because I'm too busy myself. Stosh

SSScout: Thanks for the heads-up. My problem is that they probably won't take my trailer, but I have a lead now on where to get my upgrade! Stosh

Maybe I should put in a good compliment rather than just a back-handed one. One of my Wood Badge items on my ticket was to go back and help a Webelos den cross over and work with them through FC. One of the boys at his ECOH sought me out and thanked me for all I had done for him and that only his dad had spent more guy time with him than I had. I hadn't thought about it, it was nice he did. Stosh

On certain occasions a trailer is quite nice, but for me it's more of a luxury than an absolute necessity. For summer camp, it's nice to have along for the extra gear, but for every outing is rather unnecessary. I can see a trailer hauling gear when there is the possibility of going with one less vehicle. I hate using up seat belt space for a backpack. However, with this thread, the question of how good of a trailer is needed. I have seen huge trailers, with shelving, lights and double doors for a troop of 30 boys. The outside was professionally painted with photographs of previous scout activities. Very impressive, but I have often wondered if that money could have been better spent on the boys and their program than on a fancy trailer. When I travel with the one who must not be disobeyed, I have a small pop-up camper that I spent a whopping $700 for. It's worth every penny. The water doesn't work, the electrical hook-up consists of an extension cord stuck in from a corner, the gas stove is long gone, and there isn't any icebox or refrigerator. It's a place to sleep off the ground. It isn't ugly, it is nothing more than crap on wheels. It's has more silicone patching than it does sheet metal, there are tears here and there in the canvas, but the only redeeming factor is it doesn't leak in the rain thanks to generous amounts of duct tape. If I'm going to invest money it's going to be on more silicon, not paint. It functions and it keeps the Mrs. in the camping business. In other words, it does the job. If I'm going to spend money, it's going to be on an upgrade, which will probably never happen. I would rather spend the extra money on good sleeping bags, a nice Coleman cooler and maybe a camp stove for when it rains. It's nice in my state that trailers don't need to be registered, so if someday you see a camper abandoned along side the road someplace, you'll know who left it there. Trailers need to be functional sound, not pretty. Stosh

There are those that say that campers and RV are camping, too. Holiday Inn in the woods is not camping for me. I spent last weekend in a pup tent with no ends or floors. I ate jerky and trail mix because I couldn't keep a fire going in the rain. That's camping in my book. Stosh

A little back-handed, but I was removed from the position of SM because I was placing too much emphasis on boy-led leadership in the troop. I was called out of a training session (Green Bar Bill material) with the boys when I was released. The boys were trained in JLT, TLT, NYLT and now GBB. My 18 year old ASM had come up through the ranks and had all that training plus SM fundamentals and Wood Badge as soon as he aged out. He walked out the door with me in tears and never returned to Scouting. He now serves in the US military. Stosh

Next time you buy tents, buy those that don't have zippers. Three of the four tents I own do not have zippers. It can be done. And for those that think me outlandish, I have never found a summer camp wall tent with a zipper..... Stosh

If it keeps the water out, leave it alone. If not buy a tube of chalk and plug the holes. If the trailer looks like crap, then the color of the chalk shouldn't matter. Stosh

One patrol, let the boys vote who they wish to be PL/APL. The trained boys can mentor and lead from the back, they don't need a patch to be a leader. Nothing wrong with two non-NYLT boys learning leadership from their NYLT patrol members. There's something seriously wrong with a troop of 7 boys with a SPL, ASPL, PL and APL. Sounds like too many chiefs and not enough Indians. (Sorry for the totally non-PC expression.) Stosh