Stosh

eagle90: what about the 12 year old that goes on to play defensive lineman for a Big 10 school? Heck, he could do more physical stuff at that age than most adults! Every boy needs the same opportunities. Yes, use high adventure for the older boys, but if the younger boys want in and they can handle it, they should be treated the same. While not many boys fall into this category, I know 14+ boys that can't handle high adventure so simply stating an arbitrary age is quite prejudicial. If the Webelos cross-overs want to do a 5 mile hike to get to camporee, they should be given the chance with all possibility of success. It's a learning process, they need the chance to try it out and see what they can do. There were plenty of times the boys surprised me with what they were able to do that I would have bet good money against it and would have lost! Stosh

eagle90: what about the 12 year old that goes on to play defensive lineman for a Big 10 school? Heck, he could do more physical stuff at that age than most adults! Every boy needs the same opportunities. Yes, use high adventure for the older boys, but if the younger boys want in and they can handle it, they should be treated the same. While not many boys fall into this category, I know 14+ boys that can't handle high adventure so simply stating an arbitrary age is quite prejudicial. If the Webelos cross-overs want to do a 5 mile hike to get to camporee, they should be given the chance with all possibility of success. It's a learning process, they need the chance to try it out and see what they can do. There were plenty of times the boys surprised me with what they were able to do that I would have bet good money against it and would have lost! Stosh

qwazse: You make a valid point. Why do we expect adult quality program when it's run by future boy leaders? Cut them some slack and get in there and help them with their opportunities rather than judging them against adult standards. Too often we approach this whole like a bunch of PHD professors who expect their college freshman students to perform at their level. Well, it doesn't happen in the real world, nor does it in scouting. The reason we are there is to help the boys grow and mature, and that takes time. I see plenty of adult micro-managed troops that put out a ton of good programing, but is that what the program is all about? Stosh

Little problem with the words here. Venturers - Boy Scouts and Boy Scouts 18+ wear the adult uniform with no rank/MB sashes. Venturing - Wear a different uniform and no MB sash is part of it. Until Boy Scouts wear all the bling from Tiger Cub uniform through to Boy Scouts, I would say, Cub Scouts have their uniform, Boy Scouts have their uniform, Venturing has it's own uniform and adults have their uniforms. "Do Your Best" to keep them as they are intended. Stosh

For every hero that gets publicity, there's hundreds of thousands more worthy heroes out there that go unnoticed.... Stosh

A lot of good comments especially on the patrol method approach. I'll add my 2-cents worth here. Patrol identity is #1 priority. Let the boys select groups of 6-8 (1 BWCA/Philmont crew). People know this is a good number for an effective group size. Let the boys select their own patrol leadership. How they do this is not important as long as they do. Then "outlaw" troop meetings for a while. When the boys come to the meeting they are to function as a patrol (mini-troop) during this time, planning their activities/outings, etc. Everyone gets separated into their patrols immediately after the troop-wide flag ceremony. They gather at the end for closing flags as a troop. Otherwise everything is done as a patrol. Not enough patrol members to be effective? No problem, let them go after their missing pards as to why they aren't there. Mixing patrols totally undermines this opportunity for a patrol attendance push. PLC is the gathering of PL's to let the SPL what their patrol is planning on doing. If a Camporee is coming up in 2 weeks, the SPL gets a tally of which patrols will be attending. End of discussion. This is also the time to resolve any inter-patrol issues. This is not the time to "dictate from the top" and tell patrols what they have to do. Instead, it's a listening post to hear concerns and assist in resolving problems. SPL to PL: "Your patrol doesn't have an annual calendar. What can we do, if anything, to help you with that?" SPL: "ASM Mr. Smith is thinking about doing a leadership training opportunity, any of you or your people interested in something like that? Let me know what your people think." SPL: "The local conservation group is looking for volunteers to help with project X next Saturday, check with your patrol to see if they would like to help and let me know", etc. If boys don't want to be seen as failures or they are intimidated by high adventure, the SPL is to encourage the patrols to consider mini-high adventures for their patrols. PL#1: "Our boys are thinking about hiking to the camporee instead of riding in the car and using the trailer." SPL: "Anything we can do to help?" PL#2: "Hey, that sounds like something my boys would be interested in, too", etc. Let the boys pick the activities on a patrol basis. Take a 6 month hiatus on troop dictated activities and allow the PL's the opportunity to develop their patrols and come up with things THEY would like to do, irregardless of troop traditions. The NSP PL wants the boys to go to the local council camp, while the Venture PL wants his boys to go to a different camp because they've been to the local camp a bazzillion times. As supporting adult leadership, make it happen. There are troops run by adults out there that have 6-8 boys in them. So, why not have a mini-council within your troop with each patrol being a mini-troop run by a boy leader under the mentoring support of more experienced boys (SPL/ASPL) and the adults? Just like each troop in the council has a distinct identity that boys identify with, that same dynamic can happen within a troop with it's patrols. You have a great opportunity in a troop of 60+ to do exactly that! Stosh

Any recipe that calls for a 9" X 13" pan can be adapted to the dutch oven. 2 dutch ovens and 2 - 9" pie pans can do the same recipe as a 9" X 13". Use 3 stones in the bottom to hold the pie pans up off the bottom and 15 briquettes on top and 9 briquettes underneath with doubled up aluminum foil to keep the ground from absorbing the briquettes' heat and you're good to go. The oven will bake at 350-degrees for 1 hour and then the briquettes will need to be changed out. One pot meals vary for everyone's taste. All the goodies for oriental meal dumped in dutch oven (stir fry style), cover with a bottle of sweet/sour sauce, do the rice in separate pot. You're good to go. Standard meats cooked and then dumped with sauces, BBQ, sauerkraut, sweet kraut w/applesauce (pork/chicken), apple pie filling with BBQ sauce is also a favorite. Doctor up the beans with onions, green peppers, hamburger, pre-cooked bacon, smother with cheese to be browned on top. Stews, but instead of using water, use apple juice instead. A wok works well on a campfire.... Start with some basic meat, toss in everything but the kitchen sink you think the boys would like and serve over rice or noodles. Splash it a bit with soy or teriyaki, maybe a bit of chili hot oil. Fajitas are quick and easy in a wok for the internationally inclined. Serve in a soft taco shell with the fixin's. 95% of my campfire cooking is done on a griddle, wok or dutch oven. The other 5% is when I cook using my mess kit for a meal just for me. Stosh

When I was SM of a troop, I was first engaged and eventually married during that tenure. My wife is an avid outdoors person and would accompany the troop on certain outings. She started out as a second guide/expert on kayaking on an outing because I needed an experienced person to help out. We were engaged at the time and so she had her own tent for the weekend. Jokingly, she plied her womanly wiles on me when we set up camp to get me to set her tent up, but I played along and told her she's on her own. We kept up the game for about a half hour when the SPL came over and offered to set it up for her. Of course she thanked him and politely turned down his offer. She told him she was only trying to push my buttons. As the weekend went on we kept the game going and the boys seemed to be quite amused by it. When it came time to pack up on Sunday morning, the boys were readily siding along with her in the game and the most fun was when the SPL was needing some help carrying the dining fly, he asked me for some assistance and I gave him the "stare" because he was always siding with my fiancee, until he announced in a loud voice for all to hear, "Well, if you really loved me, you'd help me!!!" It took about 10 minutes before everyone (including me) stopped laughing! Once the smoke cleared, my fiancee walked over, hefted up the dining fly all by herself, said, "Well, I love you." and walked it over to the car. That SPL has now aged out, I'm no longer the SM, and he contacted me this past week that he would be in town and wanted to stop by to visit, but wanted to find a time that both my wife and I were available. As a "tag-along" she sure was popular with the boys. Of course her stories of her working the lumber industry in Alaska was a popular attention-getter at campfires. There is a lot to be said about relationships and how they play out in front of the boys. PDA is not necessarily the correct way to go about it. However, leading by example in how to interact with females, treat them with respect and yet enjoy each other's company are important for the boys to see. Many of the boys come from broken homes and single parent households. Where are they to learn healthy relationships? Stosh

As I mentioned, no cooking is but one option. Cooking one meal is another option. Hot breakfast/dinner with cold lunch is yet another option, etc. There is nothing right or wrong about these decisions, they are all just options. Nothing is cut in stone here. Which option one chooses is entirely up to the group and the aims they hope to achieve. Heavy equipment on a short trip? Less costly and there's nothing wrong with it. As the boys get bigger and stronger, the gear lighter and more high tech, the farther they will go. It's not a good idea to start out with a 50 mile hike with high tech/light equipment with the new Webelos cross-over boys. But maybe it would work well with the 16-17 year-olds who are looking for a good adventure. Eventually with the knowledge base they acquire along the way they might be able to translate that into how to family camp with their wives and children to make it enjoyable for them to enjoy the out-of-doors as well. But they aren't going to take their new Tiger Cub boy out for a 10 mile hike on his first outing. I've been camping for 58 years now and I know for a fact it took me a while to sleep outside the trailer in my little pup-tent I bought for myself. But each time I went out it was to push the envelop. Today I have more equipment than I can carry. Some for static camping, some for kayaking, some for canoeing, some for hiking, some for backpacking, and I recently bought a pop-up camper for me and the Mrs. so we can spend more time on the river instead of setting up camp with a tent. The coolers and stove are still there because we bought a cheap run down camper that doesn't have plumbing, stove or refrigerator in it. I have paid more for my kayak than I did this trailer, but it serves a purpose. It means I get out and have a base camp from which to operate other activities. I can also drive later into the evening before setting camp and be up and gone quicker in the morning on long trips. Do not look at these sorts of things as right or wrong, just as good for the moment until I get something better. I don't know what that something better is until I get out and find out what I have isn't meeting my needs anymore. The very first purchase I made as a kid was a military trenching shovel. Well that got put away in the closet when that practice went out of vogue and other options deemed better. But when it comes to digging a trench for a fire and moving coals for a Dutch oven, nothing is better. Constant learning and evaluating, judging cost vs. utility, improving along the way and going further into the woods each time is the goal of scouting. What you do along the way isn't right or wrong. Life is easier when things go right, but great educational opportunities are offered up when things go wrong. It's all part of the same process. Static camp now and want to push the envelop? Bring the trailer but park it in the parking lot 1 mile away. The boys will soon learn to evaluate what to bring into camp without being told. A 2 mile hike to get something is going to produce some great learning. Eventually you might not even need the trailer because no one wants to go back and get junk only to drag it out Sunday morning. Then make it 2 miles and the boys will quickly figure out that pre-planning of one's pack is important. Then make it 3 miles, etc. Eventually you will find yourself measuring the enjoyment of the experience in terms other than miles because they will be irrelevant. Stosh

The situation described seems to be an implementation of the Patrol Method without any prior training as to what it is all about. Those troops that rely on the "Lord of the Flies" approach are setting the boys up for failure and a real headache getting to it. If the SPL is functional, a lot of what was described would have been avoided. If the PL's were functional, the tents would have been set up properly. If the grubmaster was functional, meals would have been planned accordingly. If the Quartermaster was functional, the trailer wouldn't have been a mess. etc. etc. etc. Too often we expect the boys to act like adults when they have not been been taught what that means. It's a lot easier to throw up one's hands and announce they will be treated like small children than teach them what it means to function at an adult level. Until proper training is provided each subsequent outing will be just like this one and eventually everyone will quit. The adults need to start teaching, NOW so that tomorrow will be better. Notice that I said start teaching, NOT start doing for these boys. If one has to rant about this outing, I would start with the SM and his ASM's and direct them to begin proper training of these boys so they have a chance at success on their terms. If one is to have a functional troop, they have to have functional leadership and the only way that happens is with proper training and in this case from the SM on up. Servant Leadership requires the PL's to provide leadership support for their patrol members. SPL is to support the PL's and the SM is to support the SPL. If none of these are functioning, problems are going to occur on a regular basis. Does the SPL know what he's supposed to be doing? Does the QM know what he's supposed to be doing? Do the PL's know what they are supposed to be doing? etc. Without appropriate training in the Patrol Method, the answer to each of these questions is an emphatic NO. Stosh

Will the bus be pulling a trailer? I have heard of church groups with buses, but never a scout troop. It's a pretty costly issue if the bus can't be multi used for other purposes. A church will use the bus for more groups than just the youth group, for example. I'm thinking that the insurance, maintenance, having a CDL driver, etc. are a myriad of issues a troop doesn't want to deal with. If the CO is a church and they have a bus available for use, then that's a different story. You will find that maybe renting high capacity vans might be more economically feasible. But even then high capacity vans may need a CDL driver and the rental agency may not insure for all states you might travel through on a longer trek. I'm thinking that a lot of troops don't have buses because all these considerations for such occasional use just isn't worth the hassle. Stosh

I'm thinking a lot of this discussion revolves around the varying definitions of words. Camping: Go somewhere set up camp and enjoy the event. Hiking: Walking from one place to the next. Camping may or may not be involved. If camping and hiking are incorporated together, it may or may not be backpacking. For example, day hikes from camp are not in the backpacking definition. If one carries their camp equipment/food from one place to the next on the hike, then it's backpacking. However, once they remove the pack and begin to set up camp now they are camping. The percentage of time "on the trail" makes a big difference in the definitions and how they are blended. This percentage falls into what mathematicians call "fuzzy theory". On the one end if the backpacker is up up at dawn, hikes for 2 hours before breakfast, hikes until lunch, then hikes the afternoon and then has supper and then another hour to just before sunset and then meadow crashes for the night. That is one end of the spectrum. But if the backpacker is up an hour or two after dawn, makes breakfast and is on the trail by 10:00 am, just to stop 2 hours later for lunch, back on the trail for another 4 hours before stopping for supper and setting up camp. And then there are those who think that if they carry their gear from the parking lot 2-3 miles to camp it's a backpacking trip because they "carried in their gear" on their backs. There's a lot of "grey" area between the two extremes that get generically defined as backpacking. The responses in this thread all seem to address much of this variance. Before the trip one has to first define the degree of backpacking that will be involved. For the newbies, maybe the 2-3 hike in from the parking lot will be all they can physically and mentally handle. But the experience is necessary to begin the learning process. What can my body handle, what gear am I really going to need if the next time is a 5-7 mile hike in from the parking lot, etc. Over the years one can expect to push their envelop further and further into the backwoods, eventually running lean and hard into areas most never reach. The level of grey area a person can handle will vary throughout the lifetime of any individual. The point being is that one is not to judge which is better/worse than the others. It's just that people differ in their personal levels. The newbie scout may start out with a lot of "junk" in his pack, but with time and experience, he'll make the adjustments necessary to get out of it what he wants. A 12 year old might struggle with a 5 mile hike to camp from the parking lot, but maybe the 17 year old wants the 100 miler of Philmont. And then there was the Venturing Crew at Philmont the year I was there who was trying to see how many miles they could get in in one trek. They jogged by us at a rather rapid pace. I thought they were nuts, but maybe if I was 18 I might have thought it a pretty neat idea. At all the different levels of backpacking, people can find enjoyment. The thread seemed to be asking the question: what's the next step? How can we push the envelope with what we have and what is going to be necessary to take it to the next level. That is what scouting is all about, the challenge, the adventure. Stosh

Granted, cooking is an important part of an outing, but it is a luxury. I would definitely expect 2-3 meals a day in car camping to be cooked. However, on a backpacking treks where ever oz. counts, one needs to make adjustments. Full regalia for COH and a swimsuit at the waterfront. Boomer is correct. There's a lot of time wasted and distance lost when one has to stop and cook while backpacking. You're not there to cook and clean up, you're there to hike. Even at an advanced age as myself I can cover more territory than people half my age because the hare has to stop and cook, etc. while the turtle just snacks as he walks along. Many of the discussions on this thread attempt to find happy ground between the car camping on one side and backpacking on the other. I haven't really found the grey area to be much of anything that really challenges the boys. We're going to go backpacking with car camping equipment... Yeah, right, sign me up! Or we're going backpacking but retain the car camping attitudes... Yep, another winner! Or we're going backpacking, but we can only cover 10 miles a day because we're going to need to stop and cook 3 times a day... Can't wait! If I'm going to go backpacking I want to spend more time and cover greater distances than the "normal" people who backpack within 10-15 miles of the parking lots where they have plenty of cars to shuttle them back to the other lot. I guess I want to go to the places where very few others are able to go. And as a matter of fact, I have yet to get a complaint out of a boy that would rather have a couple chocolate bars and keep going verses keeping going because we have a couple of hours of daylight yet. Who really wants to have to cook in the dark? Well, there goes 2 hours of back country hiking right there. When I was at Philmont, we hiked from dawn 'til noon each day. Stopped and rested, did the activities, etc, in the afternoon and hit the sack early. Basically it was a 1/2 backpack, 1/2 camping trip. We could have seen twice as much of Philmont if it had been a real backpack trip. And as I mentioned before, I'd rather carry food than stove, fuel, pots, pans, water filters and tent. There is such a thing as car camping without the car. It's called camping, not backpacking. Stosh

It all depends on your ability to learn. I found that with the right knowledge and planning we were able to outfit two groups (18 people) 9 day trek into the BWCA at a cost (including transportation) far less than what it would have cost the boys for 6 days at the local council summer camp. Stosh

I don't see anything wrong with a short one day shake-out weekend to see if the gear you have selected is appropriate. Obviously it doesn't do much for issues like weight and durability. One isn't going to carry 5 days of food on an over-nighter to test out how well they can handle the weight. And the shoes/boots they select won't tell you whether they will hold up on at 10 miles a day. When I went to Philmont a few years back, my SM yelled at me for the trekker boots I had rather than heavy leather hiking boots. He then yelled at me and the boy who took my advice and bought the same shoes I had. Well, after 110 miles and all 5 highest peaks of Philmont, the boy and I were the only two in the crew that didn't have blisters. Yes, one can do backpacking without high quality gear, but a lot of times it makes it a lot nicer. However, I wouldn't suggest going out and getting the best for the first outing. Work yourself into it using and evaluating each piece of equipment and replace if something better is out there, then move on to the next piece of equipment. I have a real nice external frame backpack that I use occasionally, sometimes I take my external military pack which is about half that size, and for a 3-4 day hike, I still take my BSA Yucca pack (straps only, no belt no frame) and bedroll from when I was a kid. A tumpline supplements this setup very nicely and allows for overpacking the Yucca. For reenacting, it is just a bedroll (extended weekend, three nights usually static camp, but some events had movement every day). Start with small hikes and work yourself into hikes of greater distance and duration. I can't imagine anyone taking a 6 man family tent on a one week trek without having warning lights popping up all over the place. On these shakeout hikes, have every boy evaluate every piece of equipment he has and share the knowledge gained with all of his buddies. Compare the different packs, tents, stoves, menus, clothes, etc. and have at least an hour or two after each hike discussing the pros and cons of everything carried. Then build on that knowledge. Stosh

One of the problems we all have with going from car camping to backpacking is thinking the two are synonymous. So if you are well versed in car camping, you will need to either think outside the box or contact someone with a ton of backpacking experience and pick their brain. Stoves: - Why? There's a wide variety of food that doesn't require cooking. The weight of the stove and fuel can be replaced with foods, even a bit heavier foods that aren't freeze dried. Otherwise bring only foods that require water for prep. Heat up the water on one small one-burner stove. Scoop out a cup of H20, and make your oatmeal in the cup, etc. Tents: - again why? use lightweight drop-cloths, ponchos, small tarps and sleep as individuals. Or go with the old button top pup tents and split between two boys. When you meadow crash on nice nights, use them as ground cloths. If it starts to rain in the middle of the night, grab and edge and roll over. Done it many times, it works. Sleeping bags: Usually in the summer one wool blanket will suffice. Tends to be a bit heavy, but will do well if the night temps drop off at high altitudes. Change clothes and sleep in next day's clothes for extra warmth. Do not sleep in the damp clothes you hiked in all day. Water filters: Depends on the area you will be hiking in. If the area is naturally pristine (no farm fields nearby, etc.) the water source can be boiled (see stove above). Otherwise fresh iodine tablets work just fine. Powdered Gaterade kills the taste problems. For chemical impurities, water can be run through charcoal to handle that problem. Put your $$ into good hiking boots and packs. Those are a one-time purchase that can be used for many future adventures. I have been known to survive a 4-day national reenactment carrying gear used by the soldiers of 1861-5. The modern amenities are kept far from the reenactment site and I have had to walk up to 2-3 miles to get to camp. I normally carry all my gear in the last battle on Sunday so all I have to do is walk off the field, go to the car and be the first out so as to miss the traffic jam caused by 15,000 reenactors all wanting to leave at the same time. Sure, there are fires, but I don't want to spend all my time looking for a spot at a company fire, so I carry only non-heat foods. So far I haven't starved to death and yet enjoyed myself greatly in all kinds of weather. Keep it in mind that 10#-20# of the equipment doesn't deal with camp life. The gun weighs 11# alone. Before I go on any trip, I mentally begin planning at least a week in advance and by Friday I have talked myself out of any and all non-essentials I would be tempted to take. I find that true backpack hikes are luxury for me. Modern equipment carries a lot better than canvas and heavy metal. Car camping? Holiday Inn can't beat the non-essentials I can pack into my full-sized van! Backpacking is a thinking-man's game supplemented by experience. More than once, I have sat in the middle of my camp thinking to myself: "Why in the world did I drag that along?" When I get back to base camp, I make a mental note: "Never bring that stupid thing along ever again." It works. These tips also apply when you move from canoe camping (car camping) to kayak camping (backpacking). Stosh

Seattle is on the right track. Knowing and having the skills is not the same as knowing how to use them. I can have the biggest toolkit in the neighborhood and haven't a clue how to use the tools or even how to use them correctly. One of the fallacies in scouting is that simply teaching the skills is all it takes. This holds true especially for boys because they don't have the maturity to "figure it out" on their own. Nothing beats taking the tools and skills and figuring out what works FOR YOU, and what doesn't. In the hands of an 18 year old, an 17' canoe is a piece of cake, but at age 62, I have the knowledge, but my body tells me, it just isn't going to happen the way it used to, so I have to make adjustments. I can teach a young adult how to paddle a big canoe in whitewater, but I can no longer demonstrate it, and the student is going to have to get that canoe off the trailer, into the water and try it out for himself if it is ever going to be of any use to him. My job at my age now is: how do I teach and motivate him into that adventure even when I can no longer do it myself? some skills I have will no longer be applicable, too. Just because I know Morse Code doesn't mean there is anyone out there that will understand what I am saying, so in an emergency, I teach my boys to build the biggest fire with the greenest wood they can find and then toss on all the pine bows they can find. The message is: some dang fool has started a fire and someone is going to come and find out why. Help is on the way! Stosh

I put 30 years into scouting and although I came into the program with extensive outdoor and leadership skills/training, being a student and teacher at the same time was important. About 3/4ths of the skills I have picked up over the years was from interaction between other skilled people rather than classroom or structured learning opportunities. I attend outdoor seminars just for fun and continually spend time out-of-doors honing my outdoor skills. As I get older, knowing the knowledge I have acquired over the years has extended my opportunities to get out of the house that I would have otherwise had to give up due to age. I can't handle my 17' canoe in whitewater as well as I used to, but my 13' kayak works just fine, etc. Short day excursions on the Appalachian Trail have replaced extended backpacking treks. Yes, I get out, just not as ruggedly as I used to. For training, I would invite outside speakers into U of Scouting and have mini-seminars set up for RT. There's a lot of information out there that SM's could benefit from that aren't in the resource pool of SM's in the council already. Many of our U of Scouting topics are great for the greenhorn SM's, but the instructors generally are from the same group of scouters that may in fact find it quite interesting to learn something new from yet another source. Lodge may in fact have BSA plastered all over the 12" Dutch ovens in the store, but I'm thinking there are more non-scouters buying them than scouters. I'm thinking that in this area of extended training for SM's, the BSA is rather myopic. Stosh

qwazse: You are correct, ever boy that takes on a POR should be given a chance to get through the learning curve. My point, however, after a couple of months and it's going nowhere, it would be nice to have a Plan B in place. Stosh

While elections teach the boys the significance of civic duty and conducting how things work, if elections aren't working out for the betterment of the troop, there are always alternatives. Volunteering is a lesson of significance of civic duty too. Experience is an important character trait to have, as well as teamwork and cooperation, etc. There are always the flip-side of all this as well. Election held. Boy doesn't get his way, takes a 6 month hiatus comes back to see if things got better, if not repeat until it becomes a useless endeavor and then quit. If the "system" ain't working, let the boys figure it out. That in itself a great lesson in civic duty, too. Some of today's traditions weren't even around 10 years ago. Traditions normally have nothing to do with the past, they are a present day opinions of what people think the past was. Stosh

No one wanted to be SPL? Easy solution: don't have one. Let the PL's fend for themselves with no leadership. I'm thinking that if the position is really needed, someone will step up and fill the void. Now you have a working SPL. If the boys elect an SPL that doesn't want to be there? Easy solution: pull his POR. No one should be forced to do a POR. Advancement in BSA is optional. I have found it is better to have no SPL than have a boy who doesn't want the job being forced to do it. Rule #1 of scouting is having fun. Doesn't sound like anyone is going to have fun in a situation like this. Stosh

I'm thinking the comment about appropriate elections holds true for this position. SPL is elected, he selects ASPL who can work with him. It's a nice idea to move ASPL up to SPL, but only if the boys elect him such. Then he can pick his own ASPL. Of course, this is one my my big pet peeves. Do you need an SPL/ASPL team because you have 3 or more patrols or is this just a fill up a POR process to advance the boys? I find that most troops who have problems with SPL relationships is because that person doesn't need to be there in the first place. 1 patrol - run by an SPL??? Why? 2 patrols - one SPL the other "just a PL" - There's a recipe for disaster. 3 patrols - one SPL and three PL's? just maybe it might work with the right combo of temperaments. 4 patrols - now one might have a fairly functioning PLC. Most troops do not have 4 patrols of 6-8 boys. If they do, they just might be able to function as a patrol-method troop. Stosh

OGE, Basement had a typo, it wasn't bauble, I'm thinking with the length of the "ceremony" it was really bAbble. Seriously people! I got my beads in the mail and it was the most appropriate ceremony I could ever imagine! If it's not FOR the boys, the boys should not be subjected to it. If the boys want something nice for the SM or ASM who gets beads, they should put together a brief ceremony and reception with cookies. No 40 minute dirge at a campfire. Stosh

If one is burning their boys out after 4 years in the program, there's something seriously wrong with their program! I've been an active outdoorsman for 58 years, I spent the weekend enduring 40 degree temperatures in a constant rain. I might be a bit strange, but I'm a long way from burning out! Stosh

The troop Scribe should not be overwhelmed by his job. If he is, there's a quick solution to the problem. Older scout burnout is a problem created by adults. PL's are responsible for turning in to the scribe attendance and advancement they did at the meeting/activity. The scribe records it and passes it on to the ASM in charge of advancement. The PL's collect and turn in permission slips for their patrol members. If the PL can't handle it, he has an assistant and if they can't handle it between the two of them they can always designate a patrol scribe to handle the scribe duties for the patrol. The troop scribe should not be dealing with patrol issues in the first place, especially in the larger troops! Where does one get the experience to be a troop scribe? Sure, being a patrol scribe. Where does one get the experience to be an SPL? Sure, being a PL. In my previous troop, the patrol scribes were responsible for doing the paperwork, permission slips, signups, etc, taking attendance, keeping track of advancement, and collecting dues. If they were smart they had a notebook and packet of "reports" to hand in to the troop scribe after each meeting. The troop scribe would crunch the numbers and give a report to the SPL, SM and ASM/advancement in a email the next day. People don't train their people and then they are all expected to be fantastic at a job they know nothing about. How many of the scouts are truly lazy and how many have given up because they have no idea what the expectations from the troop even are? Boy led, patrol method only works when training is done first. Otherwise it ends up a shouting match with the SM yelling, "Just do it!" and the officer saying "Do what?" To which the SM, profoundly, "The scribe/bugler/PL/SPL/etc. things!" Yeah, that works for me too. (notice the dripping sarcasm.) Stosh