Stosh

I don't see why BSA seems reluctant to adopt what all other youth programs are doing. When I took a church youth group on an extended trip, they did a background check on me. I didn't mind, it's no skin off my teeth. What a lot of people don't realize is that YPT works both ways. It protects the youth and it protects the adults. As a professional clergy, I was taught 40 years ago, one leaves the door of one's office open whenever counseling a person of the opposite sex or youth. Not all well-meaning adults understand this and it's unfortunate that they run into problems. YPT take but a few minutes and yet can avoid a major headache down the road. I would find it rather suspicious to have an adult refuse to register and take YPT. If they did, I would just find someone else and be at peace with it. Stosh

Last Monday I visited the troop I am commissioner for. The boys spent the whole meeting working on Citizenship in the Nation. Only one of the boys had done the "homework" in prep for the meeting. The rest had to have the lesson read to them. I thought the meeting was "uncool". I should have taken a poll, and maybe I would have been convinced otherwise. Unfortunately for me, I could have thought of a thousand other things I would have preferred doing than wasting my time with that meeting. I sure hope that EagleDad is correct in his assessment, because that's the way I see the BSA going. But then I also see a lot of discussion, including this thread, that Scouting is uncool. Stosh

I find it rather humorous that everything in scouting as been deduced down to dollars and cents. The cost of this and that is the breaking point for our decision making. That's humorous and somewhat disheartening at the same time. I come from an era where these were not considered part of the process. A cost of a hike? Whatever you wanted it to be. If you wanted to cook a hamburger or a steak, it was your decision. Yes we did a lot more individual scouting, developing a person's individual skills. Occasionally we would pool our resources for the bigger events, but normally we did our own thing. As a patrol, we usually pooled our resources. If a site fee was involved, it was cut multiple ways by the number going, same for gas, and we were all responsible for our own gear. I still remember the Christmas where I got my first sleeping bag and didn't have to rely on wool blankets anymore. Yet, the last time I went camping and slept out, it was with wool blankets. I've owned open-ended pup tents and high-tech nylon Kelty tents. I was an adult before I purchased a tent with a door and netting. We made do with very little cost on our part. If price is always the first concern, then there's going to be very little in the form of outdoor activity because the latest and greatest always costs a bundle. A scout is thrifty seems to take a backseat in many of the activity discussions. Saving money used to be one of the advancement requirements. That's been gone for a long time now and with daddy's pockets, it's easier to beg than earn. With all the call for parental involvement, it's easy to see why. A boy can drop $60 on the latest/greatest new computer game, yet can't find the money for a full uniform. Kinda leaves a guy scratching his head. Thrifty has taken it's hits in recent years. Stosh

Ask yourself an honest question. What percentage of your boys have read the Boy Scout Handbook more than what is necessary for advancement? What percentage of your boys have read any of the MB books more than what is necessary for advancement? Then ask yourself does book learnin' really work or do the boys get more out of the hands on instruction that goes with the requirements and what the MB counselor has to say? How many boys read a book on fire starting, setting up a tent/fly, food prep, etc. The boys learn from watching others and doing. Sure they might look at the pictures to see the diagrams on how to tie bandages or knots, but for the most part they don't read the paragraph telling how and why the knot is being used. Sure they can tie a knot, but they know every little about why and where it's used. I find that even much the BSA literature knows very little about such things so the reading parts are pretty useless. Take the sheet bend knot for example. Well before grommets, sails on the big ships had ropes fastened to them with the sheet (sail) bend knot. Today it is taught to use a rock or grommet to hold fast a sheet, both which tend to rip out in a strong wind. Tension on a lashing is better finished off with a clove hitch as instructed, but most boys tie the knot completely losing tension in the process, but if tied 1/2 at a time maintains tension and secures the lash. Try showing that in a book's diagram. Too much time is spent looking at words and pictures and not enough time out in the woods watching and learning from others who know the skills already and can give explanation why it works. For me the MB mills that pose as major activities in most councils and troops that spend time doing MB's at their meetings might produce a lot of Eagles, but they produce very few woodsmen. In many respects, I fully understand why a lot of young men think Scouting is uncool because it is just like all other activities that are designed to instruct. Read the book, review in class, and maybe someday go out and actually use the skill taught. It happens in church youth groups, too. Everything is fun until the pastor drags out a Bible for the requisite Bible study. Kids would prefer sorting tons of canned goods at the local food pantry over anything that is related to a book. School is uncool and when BSA adopts school-like dynamics, it's uncool too. "We're going rock climbing today!" "Here's a rope, a helmet, gloves and harness." "And here's a book to show you how to do it all." At what point did these comments turn uncool? It's pretty obvious. Stosh

If some camp told me they don't want me to attend because of some belief I had, they would be the last place I would want to stay in the first place. Sue them for discrimination? Nope, I got better things to do with my time. Now if I had some other agenda, maybe I would consider it. But even if I win, I'm still planning on staying someplace else, someplace where I am welcomed. And yes, I'm in a minority group that gets discriminated a lot. Stosh

I always thought that my years of ASM/SM got me out in the woods a lot. However, since I'm no longer involved directly in a troop, after 25 years, I actually now spend more time in the out-of-doors. I got a week in Shenandoah National Park, 150th Anniversary of Antietam (6 days of very primitive camping), 54 mile kayak trip, 2 weeks of deer hunting, just to name a few of the highlights of the past 6 months. A troop would have taken just one of these as a major trip in a 12 month period. As soon as the snow falls, the skis come out and are used 3-5 times a week. Oh, and by-the-way, how this all work out with the Mrs.? Well, she gets out more than I do. I agree with Brewmeister, way too much book-learnin' and not enough get out there and have fun. Now a certain amount of knowledge is necessary to get the boys ready, but there is way too much time "in school" than suits my fancy. I can see why a lot of boys, especially those 15+ that find troop activities rather "mundane" to say the least. If the Scout Motto is "Be Prepared", then all the FC boys should be able to handle a "road trip" pretty easily. Stosh

Isle Royale Yellowstone (any national parks) back country Appalachian Trail, Ice Age Trail, Oregon Trail Apostle Islands (Lake Superior, sea kayaking) Alaska (Yukon)/Canada (Moose River) RAGBRAI (Bike hike across the width of Iowa (1 week)) Stosh

One of the things one has to also remember is that the current scout has grown up in the electronics age. Texting, video games, lan parties, etc. all allow them to not develop social skills necessary to function well in a scouting environment. A boy that grows up in front of TV, migrates to computers, and cell phone messaging doesn't really need to come out of his room for any extended periods of time. Most people blow off activities as "not cool" because they need some sort of justification for not participating. Why would kids be any different? Getting sent to one's room was a punishment for my generation, now it's a reward! So why would anyone developed under these premises ever want to go with a group of guys out into the woods? For some, anyone with more than three trees in their front yard thinks they are living in the woods. For some of our urban troops, even seeing a tree for real is a big deal. These are the dynamics we are struggling with and it all begins with the lack of developmental social skills necessary to do more than hang out with one's buds at the mall checking out the new video games. There's got to be a bit more to life than viewing the world through a window, that is if one's basement actually has them. Stosh

I cannot remember all the free trips I have had over the past 50 years because people know I am a Scout. Small group wants to go fishing in Canada, I go along free because no one in the group knows how to cook on an open fire. Group of women want a kayak guide for a new river and want me along because they lack the outdoor skills of such a trip. Another group of women want me to teach them the Orienteering MB because they want to do more hiking. A young adult asked me this year to mentor him in deer hunting and gun safety because he didn't get his hunter's safety in on time. He was surprised that every time I got out of the car I checked my compass before going into the woods. He also commented that while he had every bit of field dressing equipment offered by WalMart and Gander Mountain, I had the deer almost completely dressed out with a piece of rope and hunting knife before he got his "gear" out of his backpack. I use cast iron every day at home and I don't know how many guests I have had at my house that want to learn more about it once they have seen me using it. While there were a lot of people around me when Y2k rolled around, I was asked more than once whether I had gotten all my stuff together, i.e. generator, survival kit, etc. and I said no, didn't need anything other that what I already had in the house. There were some who were amazed that things would stay frozen in the freezer in Wisconsin in the winter with the electricity turned off. I teach outdoor skills more now to adult groups than I do to scouts. Why? Because maybe scouting might not be cool for the younger generation, but it is still a valued commodity for the adults. It's rather unfortunate that there are a lot of young boys who don't have the maturity to realize this until it's too late. Stosh

SPL was correct in his assessment of the situation. Like any advancement, it must be functional to be effective. Tying a knot once does not make a boy proficient in knot tying. Cooking one meal does not make him proficient in campfire cooking. Wearing a patch does not make him proficient in fulfilling his responsibility. Advancement is not supposed to be a pass to success. Helicopter parents really aren't looking for a successful son, they are seeking a status that vaguely indicates they walked through the motions and are thus "defined" as successful. It's kind of like studying for a test. One can be successful on the test if they know what answers the teacher might be looking for, but having absorbed knowledge so it might be available later in life, is not the main goal of the exercise. Stosh

You planning on changing your name from Basementdweller to doghousedweller any time soon? Stosh

I'm thinking that the DAM is awarded on more than just one year's accomplishments. It is truly unfortunate that the council dropped the ball on this issue, but it could have been worked out without a DE around holding everyone's hands. If it's important, git 'er done and don't wait for council to do it. That's a given in many circumstances. What is really unfortunate is that the # of awards is limited and I don't know if the process is retro. If 3 were available and only 2 were deserving, I don't know if the numbers would carry over to the next year. I for one have never heard of that happening.

DeanRx, You are right on with the leadership issue and in spite of the fact that I allow the boys to select their own patrols, I was removed from the SM position because I "expected too much leadership" from the boys. The two are not mutually exclusive. As one who firmly believes in leading by example, and not just on the part of the adults, I found that the Troop Office "patrol" more often than not demonstrated to the other older boys this concept of leadership you are talking about. However, they were in that "patrol" by choice and not forced to "help out with the younger scouts." Yes, theoretically on paper, the older boy should be helping, but one is never going to get all-the-time 100% compliance with that. The SPL works constantly with the other PL's regardless of their patrol mix/non-mix. The QM works with the patrol QM's to make sure they have their equipment sorted out, the TG(s) work with the younger boys constantly, especially when they are first starting out. What I have seen happen is that when "some" of the other older boys (i.e. Troop Officer patrol) are getting accolades for their efforts and the younger boys connect with them, the more selfish-do-your-own-thing older boy patrols begin to alienate themselves and will eventually begin to "follow" the leadership of the other older boys so they don't end up on the outside looking in. Nobody at that age really wants to be a social outsider. Yes, there are going to be some of the older boys who are not mature, inclined, or whatever that never engage the younger boys, but because their buddies are there, sometimes even they will "help out" with an activity their buddy is doing with the younger boys. Not all boys are socially mature to handle one-on-one with the younger boys, and to penalize them generally means voting with their feet to a more comfortable place in life. What one has to remember is that there is no real "generic" scout out there. They are all different, starting with age, and moving on to social skills and eventually leadership skills. Now a single patrol might be "age" segregated, but still there will be major variations in social and leadership skills. Too often we focus on just one aspect, i.e. age and pigeon-hole the boys accordingly without taking into consideration that is but one minor aspect of the issue. Other than scouting, how many opportunities have the boys been given in trans-aged groups? Maybe their church group, but definitely not in our educational system where a senior in high school has very much contact with middle school "buddies" as he is expected to do in scouting. Play to the strengths of these boys and quit fighting some arbitrary "rule" that some adult has come up with to mix and match that which is not normally meant to be mixed and matched. It's difficult to "trust" the boys to make the correct choices in patrol selection, and if they are making those choices, they also have the responsibility to fix things when it goes south. It's part of the learning process that is necessary with a boy-led program. Stosh

We spend a lot of time teaching our boys to summer camp, but lack when it comes to winter camping. I'm thinking some of the reasons one does not plan winter campouts is because even the adults lack the knowledge to do it correctly. In northern Wisconsin there's a lot of boys who proudly wear their Zero-Hero patches where they camped overnight in sub-zero weather. Yeah, it's cold, but with the right training and equipment, it's really not all that bad. My troop missed it by one week, but a group of scouts from multiple troops attended winter camp school and the temperatures dropped to -43 degrees. The staff panicked and went out to each encampment to bring the boys in. They were all snug in their shelters and equipment and NOT ONE packed up and called it quits. The next morning the only things that did not get up and go, were the cars in the parking lot. Years later the boys are still riding high on bragging rights on that outing. Stosh

I found the most "simple" solution is to let the boys pick their own patrols. Yes, they tend to pick their buddies and that is usually by age groups. Yes, one can (by adult decree) mix them, but then break them apart for the really fun things the older boys do. That can cause problems. The patrol integrity is disrupted and jealousies abound. I have always let the boys always pick their own patrols. That does not automatically mean that they will always pick by age preference. I had one Eagle scout become PL of the NSP. It was his choice so I had no fall-out from that. I did, however, "segregated" the Troop Officers (SPL, ASPL, TG, QM, etc.) into their own patrol with the responsibility to assist the new scouts in younger patrols get on board. It was a personal choice to accept a position as Troop Officer and again, it was by boy's choice to do so. I had older boys that once their POR requirements were fulfilled refused any more POR's. On the other hand, if all one's buddies are in the Troop Officer patrol, it became a preference to accept the added responsibility to help out like they were doing. Not all the older boys want to work with the younger ones. The more one forces that issue, the more resistance and feet-votes they will face. If something goes awry with a boy choice patrol, it's their responsibility to work it out. They have no one to blame but themselves. If something goes awry with a adult chosen patrol system, then justly, the adults take the heat. Special needs boys need special needs mentors and they don't always have to be the parent. I had one boy with ADHD that at summer camp one of the older boys volunteered to help him out, got him his meds on time, got him to his MB sessions, and made sure he was supposed to be here he needed to be. When that older boy Eagled, I was as proud of him as his dad was. Let the boys decide what they want to do, but encourage them to stretch their comfort zones. If they say no, accept it and move on to the next boy. I could go on for a long time with examples of positive things about boy choice systems, but I'd be hard pressed to come up with very many negative things. I have seen adult led troops where just the opposite is true. I found as SM, I most often took the easy path of less conflict. Stosh

The youngest MOH awardee was a 12 year-old bugler for an artillery crew 2nd US Battery B. His unit was under heavy fighting at Antietam, the bloodiest one day in American history. The battery commander was wounded and he dragged him to safety and returned then to find the crews short-handed and he put down his bugle and manned the gun. This gun was directly on the front line just to the right of the famed Cornfield where the famous Iron Brigade advanced on the equally famous Hood's brigade of Texans. And who says Eagle scouts at age 14 are too young/immature..... Stosh

OMG! Stick Wars! (aka Duck Wars) Totally awesome and well worth the show. What you need is a 2' chunk of closet rod for each boy. They square off by whatever, dens, sides, etc. and each boy takes the rod, puts it behind his knees, hunkers down, putting his arms under the rod and clasping hands in front of knees. The object of the game is knock over the opponents without getting knocked over yourself. Once you let your hands go free or get knocked over, you're out. Last man standing wins. Caution, once the wars start, it is terribly difficult to get the boys back on task once you announce for the 100th time the game is over. Totally entertaining for the adults to watch. There's a reason why they call it Duck Wars. Stosh

Watt chuse guys talkin bout?

Here's one I could never figure out. Sentence: There are three ways of spelling ______ in the English language. Would you put to, two, or too in the blank. Stosh

Dean, BSA is unique on a variety of different issues other than going out into the woods. To a lessening degree in recent years, BSA was a staunch program of leadership development, citizenship, and honest values. The use of the woods and woodcraft was more of a lure into the program rather than just the program itself. Scouts used to be respected for what they stood for. People had an instant trust of Scouts and to a degree could rely on them for their training. I don't know how much of that translates into how scouting is viewed today. As each year passes and BSA tries to market it self competitively, the more it becomes generic. Once the message gets out there that BSA provides a generic program just like anyone else, except we go out and camp, people will find it a lot easier and cheaper to stay in town and get the same benefits. Stosh

If political decisions were mandates to non-profit private organizations, then we'd all be in like-minded lock-step and competition and individual values would have to disappear. I'm thinking that "kicking and screaming" is a pretty good response. Like my mother used to say, if everyone else is jumping into the lake, it doesn't mean you have to as well. I like the option of traditional values of B-P being available to the American public. If BSA wishes to become "like everyone else", then what's the reason to stick with scouting? Stosh

Backroads: My apologies for taking so long to respond. In one respect you are correct, the leadership in any troop should know who it has registered and who they don't. Yet unless the leaders go back and follow up on every mid-year registration, they will not know that the paperwork did not get processed until the name doesn't show up on the re-charter roster. I have had all the paperwork in my hands and yet the name was not on the roster. I guess to a certain extent, I wouldn't think it's the responsibility of the leaders to have to follow-up all the time and be checking over the shoulder of council personnel. This is probably why it took 5 years to get a knot. I submitted all the correct paperwork and waited, and waited and waited. Finally I went in and checked and "they will look into it". Then there was more waiting and waiting and waiting. I go back they tell me there's no record of my request and so I resubmit my paperwork and waited and waited and waited. By the third request and waiting, follow up and waiting they finally "found" the paperwork (I have no idea which of the 3 submissions it was, but they had it.) Then after about 6 weeks, it was available. The knot was not all that "important" in the first place (probably why the wait in between requests/follow-ups), but one would think that in order to retain quality leadership, the council needs to pay attention to how they treat them. I have for 20+ years had a very good relationship with the council, but on occasion they have majorly dropped the ball. Multiply that by the number of volunteers, it could have a significant impact on council/volunteer relations. Stosh

For Jamboree I purchased a reproduction 1910 uniform. I am surprised how logically functional it is. The tunic is removable in the summer to make for a cool summer afternoon, yet with it on, extends comfortable camping well into the late fall. The "baggy" pants make it easy to hunker down around a campfire. The leggings are perfect for cutting through the woods, brambles and keeping the ticks out. The brimmed hat keeps off the sun from face, ears and neck. While it will never again gain any popularity in today's world, there's a lot to be said for a practical uniform. Stosh

I often wonder if I hold the record for paperwork snafu. I earned one of my knots, can't remember which one, but I submitted my paperwork three times over the course of 5 years before I received it. I have no idea how many of my boys, over the years, participated in the program unregistered, but there were quite a few. Granted, when all the council's charters all come due at the same time, it is nothing more than an accident waiting to happen. Stosh

Spiney, With boy-led, each boy needs to be challenged to his own personal envelops of development. Sure, some boys will succeed, others won't. That's the beauty of the process. Over the years I have learned more from my failures than my successes. While on the Philmont trek, one of the boys was way in over his head but met all the criteria for the trip. While this was a problem, other boys in the crew stepped up and showed some extraordinary servant leadership to help this boy make it through to the end. What was one boy's failure, was other boys' successes. It kinda all balances itself out in the long run. My "motto" was, "I can't make choices for you, I can only make opportunities...." It's important for each boy to learn at his own speed what his limits really are. I guess I'm not ready to impose limits on what that boy just might be able to do. Like I said, I have been surprised many times when I didn't think it would work out but it did. You know you have reached success when you hear one of the boys get up in the morning and go to his PL and say, "I'm not on the duty roster this morning, but what can I do to help." I had to pick my jaw up off the ground on that one. Stosh