Stosh

You are correct, mine was a typo.

Kids today are not expected to actually grow up and be independent until they are well into their twenties.

As a UC now, I visit on-site every other month the units to which I have been assigned and make a phone contact on the other months. This past month I have had the unfortunate situation of helping a unit dissolve due to lack of boys. However, I did work with the parents of the boys to make sure they got connected up with another troop in the area. I am also actively recruiting a new unit in a different part of the district where the sponsoring organization has asked me to come on board as the SM. UC work only if the individual that is given the task actually follows through on it. By the way, the active unit SM that I serve just received his District Award of Merit. Nice troop, good future and yet they still get the monthly contacts. My DC works diligently with getting UC's, but the quality of their work varies as to the seriousness they take the job.

It always amazes me how everyone seems to think that the modern tent is the only way to go. The sewn in floors hold water in just as well as out and one always has to be concerned about wrecking it, no boots, no packs, no rocks and sticks underneath, etc. etc. etc. Just think. I have a floorless canvas tent. It is tall enough to stand in, hang my clothes, take a military cot, folding chair and Rubbermaid to haul it all and second as a night stand. I walk in and out without taking my shoes off. I can camp on rocks and sticks without a problem. I can have my backpack in the tent, hanging on a hook or tossed on the floor. When it rains and the water runs it, it just keeps on going out just as fast. When boys are out running around tucking their ground cloths under their tent. I'm tossing mine over the top of my tent. That way I don't have so much tent to dry out and if I do touch the walls, so what. Bugs? That's what netting is all about. It doesn't have a zipper that will get wrecked. Just because it's modern, doesn't mean it's better. My weekender tent? GI's carried them around in WWII and Korea and weight wasn't a problem. Backpack tent? GI poncho. 3 corners staked down, the other one propped up with a stick. Works just fine. I haven't wrecked the floor of a tent ever.... Never wrecked a zipper either.... Stosh

I'm glad to hear that. I was figuring someone who loves the out-of-doors would be spending a minimal amount of time in the basement anyway.

Like any activity, the more one does it the better they get at it. I've been sewing patches on for almost 50 years now and can get a patch on a pocket/sleeve without sewing it together before someone can get out their sewing machine, change thread to the proper color and sew a pocket shut. Never could figure out why anyone would want to sew the pocket shut. They put a pocket on the shirt to be used as a pocket. I have had to do field repairs on my uniform, sew on buttons, patches, etc. and do all sorts of things with a needle and thread over the years. There's going to be the day when the scout is 20 miles into the back country and rips out a seam on his backpack. Without badge magic, a sewing machine or someone in the neighborhood that can sew, he's going to be out of luck for the rest of the trip. It's called "Be Prepared". Kinda of a catchy phrase if I say so myself. There is deep wisdom in the selection of that motto. A boy should be able to cook, clean, do laundry, mend clothing and a variety of other skills before he heads out into the back country. Poor cooking practices can lead to illness as would cleanliness. Clean clothes are just plain nice to have, and when the seam of your pants split out or a seam lets loose on your pack or tent, a little sewing skill goes a long way.

While time marches on, things change. Now that change can be for the good or for the bad. Everyone needs to decide which it is for them. If one were to go back and read all the old scout novels that were available to boys pre-TV when they actually knew how to read to entertain themselves, most of what these boys did has nothing to do with what is being promoted in scouting today. Actually most of the stuff they did was against modern day policy. Summer camp was actually that, it lasted all summer, not just a week of high powered programming. Some of the earliest books had summer camps before there were actual summer camps. By this I mean summer camp was an activity, not a physical location. Of course the boys were better prepared and trained and were able to pull off such activities. Adults were marginal in everything, but they were still available when needed. Scout skills were important and were emphasized in the development of the plots to these novels. Strict patrol method was always evident in that individuals rarely interacted with other patrols and the patrols were the focus of the boys' concerns. Green Bar Bill recognized the loss of such emphasis about 50 years into the program and brought it back briefly until it once again fell out of vogue. Every troop has the option of going with the flow or going with the program. There's still a place in this society for the skills developed under the old program and have a tendency of being tried and true. Now the question remains, will the adults allow it? No parent really wants to see their children become truly independent in today's society, whereas 100 years ago, a 13 year old functioned pretty much as an adult. Now we have 30 year olds still living at home in the basement (no slam intended towards Basementdweller ). Scouting is a program that allows for maturity, character development, and effective citizenship in a community. All of which have taken their beating in the past 50 years. I know. I've lived through them and watched it happen. Stosh

Leadership is not for the advancement of the individual, it is for the guidance and benefit of those who follow. If a boy is not leading then it is only natural that no one will follow. When this happens then there's going to be a problem. Being prepared is the Scout Motto for a reason. One cannot lead unless they are prepared to lead. Who's going to follow a leader who when asked where we are going, answers: "I dunno". When a boy shows up at a BOR and when asked what he did for his POR if he cannot produce any concrete examples, then he basically didn't do anything to earn the advancement except wear a patch. Sorry, in my book that's not leadership. What I would teach my boys is that if they are to do a presentation to the group for any reason, they immediately prepare a second one after they have presented. I have had boys that at the drop of a hat have stashed away in the back of their repertoire, a program they can put on at any time. If Scout A isn't doing his job, then Scout B takes over and LEADS. The cream will float to the top and once boys see that this is how one "advances" in the troop they will FOLLOW that example. If all they have to do is wear a patch and get a check box checked, then that's what they will do. So, to answer the question about being unprepared? If a boy can't lead teach him. If he doesn't think it is important enough to come prepared to do his part, then what he is telling you, being a leader of others is not on his priority list anywhere.

My troop Grubmaster wore the Instructor POR patch and was responsible for teaching the boys in all the patrols to set up, order, purchase and be camp cook for their advancement requirements. Over the course of the year, each boy had an opportunity to learn and eventually all were qualified to handle GM responsibilities on any activity. TG taught leadership of a NSP, SPL taught leadership to PL's and GM taught group cooking. A troop can have any number of instructors that specialize in various areas. GM is just one of them.

When I was a SM of a small troop, no one wore POR patches. At different times for various occasions, each boy had an opportunity to step up and "give it a try". If no one stepped up, the activity was dropped. Eventually the boys figured out I wasn't kidding and eventually over the course of the year each boy pretty much had been there done it at one time or another. It created some very interesting and useful dynamics in the troop.

It's Monday... Just checking in to see if anything has changed.... Nope. See you next Monday. Stosh

It's really a shame when high adventure rolls around and half the patrol can't go because they aren't old enough. After hassling about reorganizing a HA patrol of guys not used to working together, and after a short hassle, the issue is dropped and so the boys all go to the same old summer camp they have been going to for the past 6 years. Multiple aged patrols seem to all work off the lowest common denominator and eventually the older boys just seem to "give up".

I don't remember anything anywhere in BSA material that says troops get to cherry pick the good kids from the neighborhood. If properly focused, some of my ADHD and Asperger's kids have done some remarkable things. I.e. one of my former troop's most successful popcorn sale was run exclusively by a 13 year old ADHD boy who was NOT on medications. His energy level for accomplishing it was better than anyone I've ever seen. He had the paperwork done, he was on task, he turned in sheets for the boys weekly after hounding them to turn them in, got the prizes lined up and distributed the popcorn to the boys far better than any adult has done in the past. Never underestimate the potential of your boys, ALL of your boys! Stosh

I used to be on this forum daily to check on the topics. That tradition has changed to weekly to check to see if the site is working any better than before......

Lightening speeds? I'd settle for a casual walk. Waiting over a minute for a page to appear just doesn't fit with any normal internet process, even those with huge pictures. Posts that take 1+ minutes to update and pages that take 1+ minutes to move to just isn't acceptable whether it's free or not.

Why do all programs have to be co-ed. Isn't there times when gender specific activities is appropriate, i.e. Poker Night, Tupperware Parties, Coffee Klatches, etc. Where do our young people go to hang out with friends of like ilk? Any guy out there that has been wrangled into a Baby Shower knows what I'm talking about....

There's an ethical tone to this whole discussion that never gets mentioned. When people donate money to a BS troop do they know that part of their "donation" goes to the wellbeing of an individual scout? Sure, there's $10,000 in the accounts, but the troop is broke? People giving money for a particular cause really don't appreciate it being doled out to specific individuals of an organization, just consider the executive salaries for non-profit organization scandals. People who finally figure out they have been duped with their donation, they won't follow up a second time. Telephone solicitors for major causes such as Red Crosse, American Cancer Society, etc. all skim 95% of the money collected for the phone operator group and the remaining 5% to the cause. It's the biggest scam in America today. I would hate to think that BSA troops are shadowing this practice by paying their scouts to fundraise with skimmed money from the cause's profits. I really don't see a lot of honesty in the way many troops are run today.

When I post, it usually has "Working" posted at the top of the page. I wait, and I wait, and I wait, and I wait, and I wait. Finally I just hit the back arrow. I get a message saying there was an error in posting... Well maybe! Sometimes it goes through, sometimes it goes through twice, and sometimes it craps out and disappears. The reliability of the posting process has basically discouraged me from spending any time putting my thoughts down, just to have them disappear into cyber-space. My time on this forum has been drastically reduced because of this. If this process isn't corrected, I'll be finding other places to waste my free time.

There are times when it is important to be able to go and hang out with the guys (or gals). Poker night, Gals' Shopping night out, Man-caves, Coffee-klatches, etc. are all examples of same-sex gatherings that are important at different times of one's life. Churches, schools, YMCA, etc all have co-ed programs. Where does a young man go to hang out with the guys? Same for the gals!

A bit of the problem is the scope of responsibility for the SPL. Does he run the troop or does he run the PLC? If the troop has one patrol and a PL and SPL, there's basically nothing for him to do. There really isn't an PLC. If he runs the troop, then all he does is interfere with the PL of the patrol. Until there are 3-4 patrols and he is solely responsible for the PLC, then there's nothing really for him to do. On the other hand if he's trying to run a troop of 30+ boys, then he's in over his head as this is an impossible task for anyone, including professional teachers. When one says they have a "weak" SPL, the first thing I think of is what are they comparing weak to? For me an SPL is basically the equivalent to a TG for PL's. If he works with the PL's to make them great, then a "strong" SPL isn't really necessary.

I love Copernicus! He is the basis for one of my most favorite family stories. My daughter, brilliant in math, graduated Valdictorian from her high school, first told me about Copernicus, she pronounced it Copper-nick-us, rather than Co-per-ni-cuss. I always have to remind her that math may be a breeze, she does need to work on English a bit, too.

I love Copernicus! He is the basis for one of my most favorite family stories. My daughter, brilliant in math, graduated Valdictorian from her high school, first told me about Copernicus, she pronounced it Copper-nick-us, rather than Co-per-ni-cuss. I always have to remind her that math may be a breeze, she does need to work on English a bit, too.

If what one is doing leads them to a certain destination and they don't like what they find once they get there, either one can keep doing what they are doing and basically end up in the same place every time. Otherwise, would a different route be beneficial? What route? Doesn't really make any difference as long as it goes someplace else.

What surprises me the most is the definition of SPL varies from one troop to another. I have often heard that the SPL is "in charge of the troop". Well, I have talked to a lot of experienced teachers who have had 4 years of professional training and maybe a few years of experience and they will all tell you having 20+ students at one time is stretching the limits of their abilities. So why then do we take 14-18 year old, inexperienced, untrained young men and toss them into such a situation and expect anything from them other than failure??? The PL is responsible for the welfare of 5-7 other boys. That is a reasonable limit for most boys of that age. The SPL is responsible for the welfare of PL's! Not their patrols. 6 PL's means one could have a troop of 48. 8 PL's could have a troop of 64. Not many troops reach these kinds of numbers and still the SPL will not be overwhelmed because he trusts the PL's he is "in charge" of. The ASPL would be the "PL" for the QM, Scribe, TG, etc. members. If worked out no one should have more than 8 people they are to lead. So you have 16 boys in PORs? Multiple Instructors and DC's? along with the rest? Well, who says there is only one ASPL? If the SPL is responsible for all the boys in the troop, why have patrol leaders? Their authority is usurped by the SPL, which is often usurped by the SM anyway. The SM gets 15 ASM's together and they run the show for the most part. As adult-led they demonstrate "leadership" by shear numbers and often are quite sucessful. But they tend to burn out rather quickly. But if one ever wants to have the boys actually lead, the numbers have to be limited to reasonable amounts so the boys actually have a chance to be successful.

It is the PL's responsibility to keep his boys in line for such things as flag ceremonies. It's time for the PL's to step up and help their boys understand the gravity of the ceremony. I had a patrol with a couple of boys that for a while didn't take the flag ceremony seriously and technically the PL can't discipline the boys, but he didn't bring his patrol forward to step into line for flags until they assumed a respectful attitude for the ceremony. He would also do a mini-uniform inspection. If things weren't correct he didn't bring them forward. They missed 3 flag ceremonies before the cut-ups figured out how serious their PL was and from then on they did very well. As an adult I suspected what was happening, but I didn't say anything and relied on the PL to know what's best for his patrol. Never underestimate the determination of a good leader. Sometimes doing nothing is the best solution as the PL demonstrated so well. I have had over the past 40 years of working with youth in many different settings had very little disciplinary problems. It's not that we haven't had them, I just don't go with normal screaming and yelling approach that most people take when confronted with problems. It's always a problem for the trouble-maker when one doesn't react in ways that they have come to expect. Keep them off balance and guessing as to what might be next. I had a boy that would always say, "I don't have to do what you say." I'm sure it was indicative of what went on at home and school as well. It was quite the mantra until it came time for his SM conference. He told me he needed one for advancement and I simply answered, "I don't have to do what you say." and smiled. Never had a problem with him ever again. Turned out to be a great scout.