Stosh

This is why any POR holder can be replaced as needed in my troop. If they aren't going to show, there's always a possibility their responsibility to fulfill their POR can come to a sudden halt.

Venturing Crews are like the old Explorer Posts. It's a separate program of BSA like Scouting and Cubbing. On the other hand Varsity and Venture patrols are sub-groups in a troop made up of older boys that want to focus on high adventure (venture patrol) or sports (varsity). Venture patrols do not need any special set up to get going. They fall under the scope of the troop's committee. Venturing Crews are set up with it's own committee, leadership, etc. like a Troop but their age is high school through college (14-20) They are coed and have separate rules that are less restrictive than BSA troops. Ships fall somewhat under the Venturing program and operate as such.

Somewhere in the far corners of my mind there's a small voice asking, "Why have a Boy Scout troop if it isn't for the boys?" If the committee feels they are a troop booster club, fine, but remember the program is for the boys. I have found the biggest pain in any troop behind parental politics is committee politics. Stosh

My mistake. The thread was oriented towards the problems between troops and crew and the problem of getting too close together. Your option of not having any crew and/or venture patrols, it falls under the oversight of the troop. It's good your older scouts can feel comfortable with planning their own HA and fit it into their regular scouting activities. Not all troops really use this option very well.

I've done the self-made summer camps and they are a lot of fun. The schedule is so much more relaxed and the boys aren't having to rush off to do MB's or having to get to the waterfront at a certain time when it's open. One year we did a primitive camp on an island that was about 100 yards away from a landing in town. They learned how to set up a real camp with latrine, used water filters, etc. and cooked their own meals. They got to fish, canoe, boat, sail, hike, nature trails and basically explored a deserted island over the course of the week. Even after many years, the boys have always thought the experience was their worst and best. Even with the hassles of not getting MB's and lack of program, they always say it was their most memorable and in fact most fun as a summer camp. The major thunder storm that rolled in during the middle of the week did a lot to "dampen" their spirits. But coupled with a camp they picked out to go to and the self-made camp, the last choice each year they voted on was always the local council camp.

After two years of discussion and promotion of a variety of different camps out there, the one dynamic that seems to be missing out is: What do the boys want for a summer camp experience? Too often we as adults think we know what the boys want or what the troop's program would be best benefited by a certain camp. Yet to let the boys go on the internet and pick out their own camp just doesn't seem to be a prevalent option here. I did this one year and the boys found a camp they really liked and unanimously voted every year to return to that same camp. It was a patrol-method camp with no mess hall. It had no rock climbing opportunity, but did well at the waterfront that they preferred. As long as my boys were happy, so was I. It worked out very nicely.

Sounds more like you have a venture patrol in the troop that has extra adults, paperwork and restrictions that has nothing really to do with a regular Venturing Crew. That's like saying this Venture Crew can do anything it wants but only if it doesn't interfere with some other organization, i.e. the troop. One could set up a venture patrol with far less hassle and accomplish the same thing in the troop.

Do the following: 1. Choose a charitable organization outside of Scouting that interests you and brings people in your community together to work for the good of your community. It would seem that a few churches might be meeting this criteria. Not all churches are interested in meeting the needs of their communities other than their own people. That would need to be properly defined. Obviously the Salvation Army is a church that does exclusive work for the community around them, yet they are a church first. 2. Using a variety of resources (including newspapers, fliers and other literature, the Internet, volunteers, and employees of the organization), find out more about this organization. If this is done using a variety of resources research the church it could be okay. 3. With your counselor's and your parent's approval, contact the organization and find out what young people can do to help. While working on this merit badge, volunteer at least eight hours of your time for the organization. After your volunteer experience is over, discuss what you have learned with your counselor. Looks like counselor, parents and organization must agree that the scout is able to do at least eight hours of volunteer work. I would think the boy could request working for VBS, but that's not a given. That’s a pretty big presumption on the part of the scout. VBS is a part of many churches that don’t do a whole lot for the community around them. Many tend to be rather self serving. Churches that host food pantries, clothing/furniture resources for those less fortunate, community meals for the homeless, warming centers in the winter, etc. are all experiences that would be more in line to the "good of your community" as stated in sub-requirement #1. Those churches tend to be more social ministry focused, rather than just VBS which is more in tuned to helping the organization more than helping the individuals. VBS is designed as a program of evangelism meant to bring others into the congregation, thus helping the congregation as well as the individual. Salvation Army really receives very little if any benefit as an organization because of their work. I'm thinking that even with the recognition they receive, the vast majority of people recognize the Salvation Army more as a service organization than a Christian church whose sole purpose is social ministry to others. The question lies more in how much does the organization exist primarily to help others and how much it exists primarily to serve its own membership.

In the back of my mind, I assumed the older scout was just screwing around. With that being said, fore go the apology but tap into his actions as something to be developed. "Assume" he had good intentions and that it was a good idea. If he has a bit of lazy free-time, you might be able to channel it into some kind of constructive activity instead. A lot of these kinds of kids respond well when the feedback they get is positive. Kids are looking for attention, if it's positive, that's great, but if no adult really cares, the negative attention is a satisfying backup. On this other older boy, it is obvious the only reason he's there is because his bling-ladened mother is forcing him to be. It's an uphill battle, but someone needs to sit him down and call him out to either pee or get off the pot. One way or the other. A scout is honest and if he's not honest with his mother all he's really doing is wasting the resources of the adults that could be put to better use with the boys that are interested. If he decides to get involved with the troop, welcome him with open arms, make a spot for him, and help him assimilate. If not, it's time to be honest with the mother if the boy isn't going to. I use a lot of the Peter Principle's dynamics of Creative Incompetence when working with my boys. I ask a lot of "stupid" questions such as, "Why would anyone want to be part of a group and then make every effort to get/stay out of it?" "Isn't it kinda difficult to get to know the boys when you're camping 8 sites down the road?" "How are you going to know when lunch is when you're camped so far away?" Nothing in those statements/questions are confrontational, but are designed to have the boy evaluate the situation on his own on his own terms, and conclude, the question may be stupid, but my reason for doing what I'm doing is even more stupid. Also if you are new to the scene and are SM, the last thing you need to be doing is standing up and demanding changes. As a servant leader, focus on helping the current boy leadership evaluate the situation and mentor/assist them in standing up and demanding changes. Often time all they need is an adult mentor that gives them the permission to do so. If these boys are constantly used to having to watch over their shoulders because some adult is hovering, they will never break out of their following and get out and lead. No one wants to be a target, but if you're only comment is a repeated, "Sounds like it might work, why don't you give it a try and see what happens." Once you empower the boys with the responsibility to lead AND AUTHORITY to lead, they will do some really good things for the troop. Your role is to mentor, assist, offer advise and enable youth leaders. Give them opportunities, not demands and rules.

Makes sense, but it does not solve the problem of competition for loyalty for not only the boys but for many of the adults as well. If this is a one-time deal, I wouldn't worry about it, after all, I'm a firm believer in the highest rank of leadership in a troop is the patrol leader. If the SPL is unavailable to support them for an event, it's no big deal. Each patrol should have been able to do business as usual and if an SPL was needed to gather up some info at a meeting, the PL's get together and draw straws to see who gets stuck going and takes notes. The older boys should not be running roughshod over the younger boys, they should be mentoring and assisting them. A lot of people chastise me on promoting the highest rank of the troop is PL, but the "senior" PL is there to help develop, support, and train new PL's not run the troop in my book! If that person cannot attend an event, then the PL's should be able to get by with their responsibilities for that time. If the crew boys had a venture-like patrol in the troop, they could leave for the event and no one is going to even bat an eye. Stosh

Basement hit it on the head. BE PREPARED to deal with any and all crisis that come your way. As far as your reaction to the first scenario, I would not have said anything. Was this FC scout doing a safety audit on the NSP? Just a gentle reminder to have a personal first aid kit handy, not in the bottom of their pack. As one who works closely with safety personnel where I work, there is no such thing as too much safety and audits are way to make sure all your people are prepared. What I am assuming happened in the first scenario was you shut down any safety leadership incentive that FC scout may have been developing. We talk a lot about patrol competitions, here you have an older boy coming over and giving an ad hoc challenge on an important issue, personal safety. If the day comes when you are complaining about the older boys not wanting to work with the younger boys, well, here's your answer to the problem. Personally, if I had stepped in on that situation (where I didn't really belong, but felt a strong need to defend the new guys) I would apologize to the FC scout and mentor him in developing a safety program where he not only challenges the NSP, but any and all patrols at the drop of a hat. Put the Instructor POR patch on him and he becomes the first aid/safety instructor that fills his free time with a useful purpose interacting with the other patrols. If he does it out of a concern for the welfare of others, I can see him fitting nicely into the SPL position without a whole lot of discussion. Second scenario, the adults were too quick to take away a good opportunity for the boys. If a boy gets hurt, whose responsibility to care for him? His PL! That's his job. The parent stepped in and took over the PL's POR. A burn is not life-threatening, it's not the end of the world and if proper care is given by the PL everything would have turned out well with NO ADULT involvement. The only thing I would add to Basement's comment was if he didn't know what to do (Star scout? Really?) talk to his PL. If a Star scout can't figure out what to do for a simple burn, chances are he blew through the T->FC requirements way too fast and is well on his way to being a great "Parlor Eagle Scout." By the way, did you do a follow up with the boy to make sure mamma kissed it when he got home after the campout? I know it runs against every fiber in your personality to let the boys do it because you can do it better, but when will the boys ever learn if you keep taking away their opportunities by interfering? If life-threatening, adults step in in a heartbeat. If not, sit back and rely on the training you have given them.

Mentoring is the name of the game. One cannot fall into the trap of doing it for them. I for one read the book, pick out the high points and when the boy runs into a problem related to that section, simply cite the reference. "I think the third chapter in the PL handbook would be a very helpful read." If he balks and wants you to tell him what it says, refer to your fuzzy memory and suggest that he read it to make sure it is clear. I've done this plenty of times and many of the boys will read more than just the part that answers their questions. It gets them to at least open the book and their curiosity tends to take over and if the material is helpful, they'll read more and more of it. I have done this so often than many of my scouts can cite the references to others as well. There's not one boy that has been in my troop that doesn't know TF #9 requirement is the first lesson in leadership offered by the BSA program.

Once one develops maturity in the patrols so they function as a team, one will no longer need the carrot/stick bribery to get them to conform. The first question one must ask is to whose standard are they expected to conform? The adults or their own? I have always found strong patrols tend to work for their own goals, rather than some arbitrary standard made up by someone else. Have the PL's define what they want and then if it's within reason, help, mentor, and assist them in accomplishing it. Their carrots are more rewarding than yours.

You are correct. The age and maturity of the boys makes a difference. However, if done correctly, it can still be done. One has to start teaching responsibility somewhere along the line.

As one who has experience in both troop and crew activities, the first question that popped into my mind is: What is the crew doing at a camporee? Seriously, don't they have something more exciting to be focusing their time on? I ran a crew for over 10 years and only once attended a camporee and that was because the crew was the program for the event. The rest of the time the crew focused on their area of interest. As a matter of fact they never attended even Venturing activities supported by the council/district. If the only reason a "crew" exists is because they are a glorified venture patrol, then one is going to find themselves on this predicament more often than not. Typically a troop/crew combo with the same chartering organization is a recipe for disaster. The boys will constantly be drawn to choose one over the other both in time and in resources. A venture patrol on the other hand simplifies the process a lot better and keeps the troop intact. I have had experience with such SPL/ASPL going off leaving the other boys to fend for themselves. To me that is a breech of responsibility that was quickly remedied by a replacement of more responsible boys. There was no such thing as a elected term in my troop. If you get elected and have no real interest in fulfilling your responsibilities, you are replaced in a heartbeat. More than once the boys held an ad hoc election in the absence of senior leadership who's only intent was to get POR credit for advancement without having to do any of the work. One can't expect boys to follow a non-existent "leader". A lot of political/popularity elections get corrected in this manner. I have often wondered if many of the boys would do better on their POR's if they knew there was always a specter of a recall in the wings. It's always worked well for me. I had one PL complain to me that he missed an event and someone else stepped into the role for the event. After the event, the patrol told him they liked the other guy better and he was going to be the new PL. I only suggested that he spend the next few months making the new PL be successful. Instead of being angry, he took the advice and did so well he was elected SPL so he could help all the PL's be successful. And who says servant leadership isn't the best route to take. The name of the game is getting the boys to work together, a divided troop/crew is not the answer. If one sets up the structure to be competitive, it only means one side or the other is going to lose. Stosh Stosh

Historically the top rank of BSA was First Class. For me FC means the boy has mastered enough of the basics to be able to go out and do outdoor activities with enough knowledge to get him back home on time. He can hike, camp, cook, do first aid, swim, etc. so that he's not a burden on his buddies. He may even have more than enough skills to actually help out his buddies if they need it. With that being said, Star to Eagle is merely icing on the cake. MB's, projects and leadership development. Fine, but not a driving force to keep the wheels of scouting on the road. There's enough training for leadership development long before they get to FC anyway. Unfortunately the policy for most is to rush through those early requirements, demonstrating, but never mastering the skills necessary to be self-sufficient in the out-of-doors. So what do we end up with? Eagle Scouts that can't start a campfire or cook a meal for his patrol. He looks to the adults to bail him out when someone gets hurt. and the list goes on and on... and on. Early scouting tradition identified such boys as parlor scouts. Well, today we have a ton of them. It is really a good thing that adults are always present with these boys when they are out camping, because they are totally not prepared to do it on their own. Seriously, we are running a babysitting service because we have not taught our boys to actually, and practically, grow up to a modicum level of self-sufficiency. If TF -> FC were a curriculum of material to be mastered before heading out on a trek rather than a pencil-whipped check in a book, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.

Story time! If they are going to act like kindergarteners, then story time fits in nicely.

I was just adding to the point you were making. There will be boys that progress quickly. I don't have a problem with that if they stick around and share their experience and wisdom with others in the troop. Like you, I am not a big fan of rushing through just to quit.

I've been active in scouting since the '80's and have collected up a ton of bling over the years. I wear the knots on all my shirts. I have a shirt with silver loops for UC functions, a short sleeve red loops and a long sleeved red-loops. Then I have one shirt with all the bling that I use for special occasions (or in the case of a few on the form, to tick others off.) However, they are accompanied by belts, socks, and pants, red jacket and hat. Traditional hat for formal and outback style for in the field. I still use one of two uniform pants. Both purchased back in the '90's. They have taken a lot of abuse, but if cleaned and maintained like any other clothing, they have lasted well. Yes, the pockets have been replaced many times, the junk I carry in them are always wearing them out. But just because I get a hole in my pocket doesn't mean the pants are useless. Just fix them and move on. Stosh

I used 6' closet rod walking sticks as part of the "uniform" for all the boys in the troop. The PL had the patrol flag on his stick. I have one of my own and I use a magnifying glass to record all kinds of information on it as to where I have been with it. A lot of the boys followed suit. It costs about $6 to make one and I always put a hook on the end so they can hang it in trees, pull down branches that are beyond reach, pick up stuff when wearing a backpack, etc. etc. etc. Hooked together they form a teepee which a poncho can be thrown over the top for a temp shelter for gear, with a piece rope and the pole and in an emergency double as stretcher poles. They can carve on them wood burn, add a grip, etc. and are very functional. If they start of the game of stick fights, they are confiscated, but the boys can buy a new one and start all over from scratch. I found that the boys really don't want to do that and so the stick fights never occurred. I never seemed to have any problem with them. Yes, they did forget to bring them to meetings, but then they forgot their neckers, etc. anyway on a regular basis, too.

Every boy is different. Every boy learns in different ways. To sum total it down to a set of rules is pretty much a waste of time and can in fact turn off a lot of active/super achieving scouts. As a boy-led type of person, when I had a young TF come to me and say he was needing service project hours for advancement, I asked him what he was doing about it. When it dawned on him that sitting around waiting for someone else to plan it out was a virtual waste of time, he went out contacted the DNR and set up a project and invited the troop to participate. I'm glad I didn't tell him he needed to be wearing a POR patch or over 13 years old to do that. Was that going above and beyond the scope of participating in a 1 hour service project? Yep. So what? He learned something, he organized something and he had fun. End of discussion. It would have been okay with me if he waited for the next service project to come along, and it would have been okay with me what he ended up doing. The boy made his own decision and went after it. I really don't see it in the realm of the SM to dictate to the boys what they can and can't do. Mentoring means giving opportunities, not taking them away.

I went to a "crossover" picnic for a pack last night. They had a crossover bridge and the new Tigers crossed over to the pack, old Tigers crossed over to Wolf, etc. Everyone got a new book, slide and necker when they got to the other side. My Web II boy crossed over and got his troop necker. There was no AOL ceremony. The other Web II boy wanted the summer to work on finishing his AOL. All-in-all the bridge was never seen as the end of anything, only the crossover to a new beginning along a progression of events/transitions. The "bridge" can signify a lot of things, but unless there's a destination on the other end of the bridge, there's no reason to even use it. Boys not going into a troop cross over to what? And to think that Congress is the only group that makes bridges to nowhere. Surely the BSA has them beat on that. I attended a Blue-Gold that had 7 Web II boys. None were interested going on into a troop. I was asked to participate in the ceremony, I asked why. When they didn't have an answer, I politely sat it out.

"Completing" the program by 14??? Since when does reaching the level of general in the US Army it means it's time to quit? BSA has a serious problem with how it defines itself. It's the same for AOL in the cub program. I'm 62 years old and have been in the program since my Wolf year of cubbing back in the '50's. I haven't found the end of anything as of yet. Maybe it's time to let the BSA know that Scouting isn't the end of anything. And if anyone thinks that 14 years of age is "half way through is Scouting experience" they are simply feeding this misconception. I'm not picking on you Twocubdad, I definitely know that's not what you really were trying to say, but it was a message that could easily been interpreted as such.

The last troop I was with had a bunch of these types of parents. Now I'm recruiting a new troop closer to my home area. Sometimes there's nothing one can do except move on to where these people can't reach you. BSA would be a great organization if it wasn't for all the politics one has to deal with.

A lot of the issues around uniforms depends on the attitude developed within the boys. If forced, they will buck the system every time. This is their time of life to test the limits of adults. But for the most part they are all very strong conformists in their peer groups. If the older boys are blowing off the uniform, the younger boys will pick up on it and not want to be different. On the other hand, when the SPL is in full uniform (with necker) doing his Eagle Project, the younger boys tend to follow. Of course the SPL would always picked the best dressed patrol to do the flags for the evening and soon it became a subtle competition to get to do the flags. The PL's picked up on it and followed. During this whole process there was never any discussion on whether or not the uniform was important. Everyone eventually had full uniforms. Once the comments began coming in at Camporees that the boys always looked the best, there were a few negative comments from the other troops, but when the boys showed up at opening ceremonies on Saturday morning with full uniforms, patrol flags, and troop flag, the other troops took notice. At summer camp (Council camp) one year the boys all showed up as such and the "joke" was everyone had decided to do a no uniform flag ceremony. The SPL was notified of this after the troop had arrived, and immediately turned the boys around, went back to camp and performed a morning flag-raising at the campsite. The boys preferred the site ceremony, they didn't ever return back to the camp ceremony, and to this day, they always attend a different summer camp. The original SPL has gone on to college and yet to this day, the traditions he started still is strong in that troop.