Stosh

mp3 pocket? I thought that's were the cigarettes went!

At least they aren't trying to start the flag on fire as it passes by.....

It just depends on one's view/focus on branding and logo establishment. If I see a boy in green pants, I don't think Scouts. Same for a tan shirt. I'm more apt to think Scouts if he is wearing an old dingy camp t-shirt. However, if someone is wearing a necker, the first thing I think of is BSA whether it applies or not. Take that same necker and wear it as a bandana "hat" and we're back to just another kid with a rag on his head. A tan shirt with patches kinda evokes a sense of scouting, but if Hollywood wants to make sure they are obscurely making a reference to scouting, they can have all kinds of shirts with patches, but the definitive identification is still the necker. Is it old fashioned and out-dated. Probably, but it still stands out as unique as the Chevy bow-tie. Nike swoop doesn't need explaining, penguin invoke Linux, the 3 "exhaust" ports on Buick is making a comeback, a couple of yellow arches? and the list goes on. One glance and you know what it is. Nostalgia? Tell that to corporate lawyers who make a living off of keeping everyone else's hands off. As a matter of fact the 1939 patent/copyright laws were a result of Walt Disney protecting his brands and logos.

Canadians can wear necker only as well. Visiting in Calgary a few years back and was in a tourist area when I saw a group of boys and girls wearing neckers. I asked them if they were scouts and they confirmed they were. Just a necker tells it all. It seems to be the one identifier for the World Scouting movement. It is as if the BSA runs with it's own rules. What other organization still uses or has ever used neckers for anything? I do remember seeing a picture of the Hitler Youth wearing neckers, but that's about it.

DON'T sew the stupid plastic! As a hand sewer, I never have used a thimble except the first time I tried doing the plastic routine. All I ended up doing is getting blood all over the place. 1) pin the patch in place. You do this by positioning the patch then take a pin, snag a bit of the shirt, coming back up then catch a few threads of the looped edge and then back into the shirt. Now it's anchored to the shirt. Check positioning and then do the bottom. Then for added security do the same on both sides. Now the patch is pinned in place and you have not had to jam anything through the plastic. 2) start your sewing about a 1/4th inch under the edge of the patch, going down and coming back up at the very edge of the patch and catch some of the looping. The knot will be under the patch and unseen. Then work your way around the patch about 1/4th of an inch at a time. With square patches do a couple of stitches at the corners so they don't curl. One never sews the "Patch" only the loops on the edges. 3) to finish off, do a stitch in the last place, i.e. the original start, but catch the thread loop before tightening down. Do that twice and the knot will hold. This is why I don't like sewing Velcro. 1) if it glues on, it eventually starts to peel, and if sewn on, it's like sewing the plastic on the patch, Velcro has no loops to sew to. Stosh

Don't forget the American Indian in that list.....

And yet there is "honor among thieves." Honor is no indicator of good or bad. There is no moral connection to honor. A lot of people would like to think there is, but as organized crime and gangs realize there must become some code of honor to make the group/community work.

In the original Flag Code of 1923, women and children were instructed NOT to take their hats off. Only adult males, and if the weather was inclement, they were to only raise their hats a few inches and remain holding it over their heads. Members who walk down the street chastising people do more disrespect for freedom than the person who doesn't remove their hat. Stosh

Yes, I am not a veteran myself. At the height of the Vietnam War, I was #64 on the first ever draft. I went in was 4-F 4 rejected. End of my military career. However, I have spent 59 years in the outdoors. I have hiked most national parks, even a few in Canada. I hunt, fish, and have had numerous times where my skills learned in the outdoors has played in my favor. However, my background is not part of any agenda in this thread. I simply realize the connection between the esprit de corps offered by the military, the leadership development, the logistical organization and the self-confidence one acquires in the military has benefits for the BSA program. By tossing out the military "slant" in the program, have they tossed the baby out with the bathwater? By the way, if BSA were concerned by the military nomenclature of the British designations, why didn't they accept more Native American naming conventions in it's place? Surely there was the outdoors/Indian connection that could have been capitalized on if they were worried about military naming conventions. However, the BSA program was and still continues to keep it's roots in a military convention. The early BSA uniforms were in fact US Army uniforms and modern Sea Scouts still carry the tradition. They have dropped the cutlass and cannon, but keep most of the other naval traditions from uniforms to naming conventions. I know of no other organization that uses the term Quartermaster except for the military and BSA. Stosh

I tend to agree with you that since the '60's me-generation and the technology "revolution" we have lost a lot of our once sense of community. There was a certain amount of watching out for one's neighbors and now it's, do we even know who are neighbors are? Someone once said to me that once the couch on the porch disappeared, so did the community. Heck, it's obvious that people of today have to walk in the streets today because many of the 60's and 70's neighborhoods are designed without even sidewalks. Block parties are contrived, events. We used to actually block off the street and everyone would gather for a major potluck picnic. Now we can't even get a permit to gather in someone's tiny backyard. The me-generation and subsequent cultures have all refocused itself introspectively. People don't join organizations unless they are "getting something out of it". In the case of BSA, it's the Eagle classification they can put on their college entrance application and subsequent resumes. You are correct no one does it for the common good. Even politics for the common good have been replaced with personal power agendas. None of these dynamics work well in a military organization, where one is forced by the situation to watch out for someone besides yourself. I was surprised recently when one of my Eagle scouts achieved crew chief status in the Air Force rather quickly. He was an excellent leader and tended to be very much aware of "taking care of his boys" while in Scouts. I often wonder if his rapid ascension in the military is because mature leadership is not something that is often experienced by the military in its recruits. Families are shattering, neighborhoods are fragmented, communities are polarized, and instead of pulling together for the common good, it's dog-eat-dog individualism. A patrol used to be a group of tight knit pals, often described that way by BP, but with the mix and match attitude of adults, that even is fragmented. When I was a scout in the 60's a group of us joined, formed our own patrol, and when scouting disappointed us (4 years of scouting, made 2nd Class rank) we all joined Civil Air Patrol and had a far better time of it. After the first real search and rescue operation one is involved with, it was obvious that this was a "for real" adventure. It mattered to us that others were being looked after. Stosh

I was thinking along the lines of skill sets related to independence away from "home base". Logistics, survival, discipline, honor, etc. kinds of things that made up the esprit de corps of the military. Sure we teach the basics, but never apply them. Where does one see the dedication one has with the military in scouting? I'm just thinking that a lot of what made the pride of scouting 50 years ago just isn't there anymore and wondered if the world changed or scouting changed. In scouting the buddy system is just a process by which we keep each other from drowning at the pool. It used to be, one guy watching the back of his partner. With scouting nothing is it nothing more than bling acquisition and personal advancement? It is as if it's every man for himself. I have often been asked why scouting is important for real life and I always use the example when a father is approached by his daughter and she wants to go to DisneyWorld, the father answers. I don't know how to plan out the trip, I don't know how much it's going to cost, we may starve to death along the way and besides, I can't even find it on the map. (The buddy system -> Marriage, patrol method -> family, Troop activity -> being a leader in one church and/or community, etc. There's a direct correlation between the dynamics of the military, goal oriented, skill sets to accomplish the goals, determination to see it through to the end, and leadership in getting others there besides just yourself. Scouting skills are basic skills necessary for adulthood, not some sort of check the box accomplishment and a badge. I'm not advocating some sort of para-military organization, just using the skill set of a military scout. Remember, although trained in weaponry, a scout is not there to engage the enemy, just check out where he is and report back. I'm thinking this is why the word scout is so important. Just remember, the only survivors of the Custer Battle on the side of Custer were his Crow scouts. They did not sign on, nor were they expected to fight. Just be scouts.

I don't think the skills, attitude and culture of BP's idea of scouting is much of what BSA is focused on today.

That's because he didn't understand what the Third Commandment means. It means one shall not use the Lord's name (power) inappropriately. In the OT the word translated "name" is synonymous with the word "power". In the Name (Power) of Jesus we pray... Call upon the Name (Power) of God in times of trouble, He comes in the Name (Power) of the Lord... That's why when Moses asked God what his name was, He did not answer. (I am who I am, in other words, it's none of your business.) To know someone's name is to have power over them. So how can one use the Lord's name (identification) improperly when we don't even know what it is? What the Third Commandment really means is don't use the Lord's power to condemn someone (God damn you.) That is a three word prayer calling upon God to condemn the other person. Or swear an oath using God's power to support it if it's really a lie, (By God, I swear it's the truth.) These would get someone's chops busted in my book. But one calling upon God at a time of great astonishment, (Oh, my God!) is no big deal in my book.

I remember the days back in the '60's where the military was taking heat for the Vietnam War. It was politically incorrect and a PR nightmare to compare scouts to the military, BUT.... the number of my scouts that went on to fulfill their civic duty because of their scouting background is quite large. Is it about time we put the war behind us and go back to the basics that scouting once provided under such military protocol? From other threads it is apparent that the terms scout, troop, patrol, etc. are all based on a military model. Leadership training of the BSA is remarkably similar to that of the US Army. I don't know who copied whom. Green Bar Bill has been sent off to oblivion because of his patrol method is remarkably military in focus. How far are we to carry the double-standard. We do flag ceremonies, we wear uniforms, we salute in military style, we form troops and patrols,... and yet we are not supposed to be reflective of the military. Well, 50 years have passed since Vietnam and still the knee-jerk response has seemed to now be some sort of permanent cramp. One used to be a baby-killer if they were in the military, now they are heroes, what's it going to be for the scouts? Stosh

Third commandment? I'm missing the point.

Being of a military background, I'm sure the term Scout was chosen by BP as the type of soldier that did not operate within the normal operations of the military, but would instead, move out into unknown territory, prepared for any and all situations and be able to return back with effective military intelligence. Each mission would require the scouts to operate on their own, making their own choices, living off the land and returning safely. Early scout handbooks spent time talking in military terms, i.e. knights, etc. The uniform was patterned after the US military uniform of the time and served a purpose of a military scout. Whereas we have dropped the military aspects and tried to retain many of the skills necessary for a military operation, I'm thinking the scope, focus, and intent of what BP envisioned has changed dramatically. After all, the things a military scout would need to know are now not always an option for the boys. A mess hall was for base camp operations of the military, as were established camps, both of which would not fit well into the operations of a military scout. He was not supposed to be in camp eating out of a mess hall. One does not need such things in the field under scout operations. Can our boys go out in a small patrol (another military term, as is troop) and survive on a mission relying on their own resources and skills? Not in today's scouting, unless mom or dad go along to supervise. The intent of the BP model was to have boys prepared to do it on their own. That skill/aim/focus/scope is not part of the program. One might as well set the boys up in a gymnasium or computer lab in today's scouting.

Ingredients 2 tablespoons butter 2 tablespoons flour 1 1/2 cups milk Salt and pepper 1 tablespoon butter 2 medium onions, thinly sliced 4 large russet potatoes, peeled and thinly sliced 12 ounces 1/4 inch sliced baked ham 2 cups grated cheddar cheese Directions Preheat oven to 350 degrees. (Do in a Dutch Oven) Butter a baking dish. Make sure your DO is well seasoned, add a bit of oil to make sure. In a saucepan, melt 2 tablespoons butter over medium high heat. Stir in flour and cook for 1 minute. Remove saucepan from heat and whisk in milk. Return pan to heat and bring to a simmer while stirring. When sauce has thickened remove from heat, season with salt and pepper and set aside. In a skillet, cook onions in melted butter until golden brown. Season with salt and pepper. Spread 1/3 of the white sauce in bottom of baking dish and top with half of the potatoes. Spread out half of the onions, ham, cheese And another third of the sauce. Season with salt and pepper. Continue layering ingredients, ending with the remaining cheese on top. Bake for 45 minutes or until golden and bubbly. You can also use SPAM instead of ham.

Sorry, my daughter did the jalapeno, raspberry, strawberry, and black raspberry jams this summer already. I traded cherries for the jam. I have a daughter that has followed in her father's footsteps. She's home now doing up zucchini breads right now. Her husband and I filled up both freezers last fall with venison. Last night I was at Sam's Club and checked out the fresh raspberries. It would seem that if I did my math right, she got about $120 worth of raspberries off the bushes this year. It was hard to calculate because we all stuffed our faces as we picked. Same happened at the cherry orchard. It only happens once a year, better make the best of it. Fresh corn-on-the-cob is next... After that, the squash comes in..... Getting ready for a long winter is always great fun.

Never been able to jam a lot of material into the stapler. Kinda okay for short sleeved shirts and an occasional pocket. Sewing on a JacShirt is a whole different process with a stapler. I just find pulling pins a lot easier than pulling staples.

Whenever I have done MBC work, I always gone above and beyond the requirements, but the material covered is never a waste of time for the boys, nor does it count for or against a boy if he listens to that material. I have had boys do the merit badge and then ask for more time with me to cover stuff that wasn't in the book/requirements that they were interested in. The books only give a brief overview of the subject. Some boys want more than what the book has to offer.

Think outside the box! No one said one had to pin through the plastic backing! Position the patch. With a pin, snag the shirt material near the patch, come back up and snag a few loops on the patch, then back into the shirt. Do the same on the bottom, making sure the patch is straight. Then on each side. Now sew and pull pins afterwards. There is no way I would pin through that stupid plastic stuff. No need to. By the way, I never sew the actual patch, only sew the loops on the edge, that's why they are there. I have often wondered if sewing machines actually could go through that plastic backing without doing some damage in the long run on the nylon gears.

I guess the not fun stuff means the scout program. I love to cook, but I don't, not because I can't, but because it is more important for the boys to have the opportunity than it is for me to take it away from them. The only time I cook on an outing is when I do it as a teaching opportunity. When the boys get into a rut about their menus, I take an event, drop out of the food option and cook for myself, making sure the boys all get an opportunity to see what some of the other alternatives are out there that they may wish to consider for future outings. Scalloped potatoes and ham is a mega easy recipe, but one never sees it on the standard scout outing menu. There are a ton of things out there that the boys aren't exposed to, and to do it for them isn't the way to go about it in my book. Mentor the GrubMaster, don't cook for him.

Basic sewing kit should include pins. Position the patch. PIN IT! If it looks right, then start sewing.

I have always simply used the definition of honor being the value of one's word and how well it can be trusted. If one promises something and don't follow through, their word cannot be trusted and thus there is no honor. One's word used to mean something. Something that could be relied on by others. If someone said something, and they come through on it, they have honor. One's honor used to be "sealed" with a hand-shake, another thing that used to mean something. It reminds me of the old adage, "Don't make promises if you don't think you can fulfill them." It's more honorable to say no, than to mislead others into thinking they can rely on you. I'm thinking that's why BP started his "Oath": "On my honor, I promise....". Or in other words. "On the value of my word I promise...." One's word is a direct reflection of the worth of that person's ability to be trusted.

With the cost of insurance, maintenance and gas for the typical bus, it would be far easier and cheaper to charter on an as needed basis. If one were "donating" the bus, it would be easier, cheaper, and safer to donate the cost of the charter. Don't forget with a 48 passenger bus, you will need a commercial license as well. I would never do this.