Stosh

Instead of contributing to FOS, I simply give directly to my boys. That way I know EXACTLY where the money is going, I write the check. I'm starting a new troop and I have a few parents who are interested in helping out. It's a poor neighborhood, so the training thingy is a problem for them. I figure it is in the boys best interest to have properly trained adult leadership so I put my money where my mouth is. I pay for it. If anyone wishes to "reimburse" me, that's fine, but not expected. Those that do reimburse me, I thank them and let them know that the money will be recycled back into the next leader that needs training. Boys need help to get to camp? No problem, I've written a few "camperships" over the years. Even the boys, knowing this have reimbursed me after camp, but again, once I donate the money, as far as I'm concerned it's spent, but if it gets recycled a bit, that's good too. So, what about support for our local camp? The boys from my former troop annually voted unanimously to attend out of council camps. Does this practice hinder the work of our council? Maybe, but then it's up to them to shake the bushes a bit harder, and there's a lot more money out there other than the parents' pockets. Stosh

I think a strong case can be made for abuse in the MB program. It's really not fair to the boys who actually do the work. I'm not one for MB days, or MB's at summer camp. I do like the idea that the boys work out their MBs on their own time. I did, however, allow a half hour AFTER the meeting for MB counselors to work their magic. If boys were not working on a MB they went home, if they were they stuck around for an extra half hour. Stosh

Although it is not required, it is in my Council, and yes, I have withheld it. The boy screwed up big time about a month before he was going to turn in his paperwork. He sheepishly came to me looking for a recommendation. Needless to say, I told him it would take me about 6 months to get over it and during that time he had better start showing he deserves a good recommendation. He did and I gave him one. Stosh

Red while Cubs and depending on the shirt new centennial uniform - Green, older shirt - Red A historical shirt should have the proper colors, but I suppose no one would comment if one were to put green on the older shirt. Stosh

My last Webelos II event was a canoe/camping trip that I've mentioned in another thread. Of course I had been their DL for both Webelos I and II and we covered Arrow of Light the first year so they got to wear their AOL patch for a full year in the pack. Once I did that I began working on the outdoors skills and got them ready for the big final activity of the canoe/camping trip. Packing, setting up tents, canoeing, cooking, etc. It was part of my Woodbadge ticket to do the Web to Scout transition. The boys were so well trained that once they got into Boy Scouts all of them earned FC within 6 months. The SM was kinda upset with me because he said these boys would not hang in on scouts because they had done too much too early and they would get bored. However, ALL eventually Eagled except one which moved away. I never heard if he Eagled or not. It was kind of nice when one of the boys at his ECOH mentioned me in his comments as the only adult male other than his dad that had spent that much time helping him out. Instead of doing just another craft project, get the boys out and look for some adventure, they'll appreciate it! Heck, prep all the hobo dinner fixins in a ziplock bag, charcoal briquettes in another, extra rain gear in their school backpack and head out of town on foot! Tell them they're going looking for adventure. Ask them to tell you when they find it. Kids at that age will certainly find something! Stosh

I did a bit of "modifying" as Paracord is suggesting, but I did so within the limits of appropriate uniforming. The first thing I did was have a ranking by color a system of lanyards. Kind of a "reward" for outstanding work thingy. All I did was buy a bunch of lanyard cord of various colors and cut to about 6" lengths. Starting with the first color if I caught a boy doing something right he got the first color which would be larkhead knot through the button hole of the temporary patch pocket. Nothing says that pocket is sacred to anyone. If sewn correctly so the button hole can be used the OA patch even doesn't get in the way. One could "progress" by taking on more and more projects which were subject to SM approval of merit. It wasn't just doing the same thing over and over again, but challenging the skills of the scout in such things as leadership, organizational projects or whatever the SM deemed as appropriate. Of course the boys knew that by screwing up, the lanyard could be taken away and the boy would need to start earning it back. Not really appropriate, but we've all wanted to bust the boys in rank many times before. Well, being a temporary "patch" I would always emphasize the temporary part of it to the boys. They all knew what that meant. Of course even without switching out colors one could add value to the system along the way. The SPL would announce lights out, but all the boys with "blue" or above could stay an extra half hour at the campfire with the adults before heading to bed. No color changes, but a big perk nonetheless. This program can be modified to one's own situation without any national rules getting in the way, too. Again, a troop adopts a certain uniform, but it doesn't need to all be the same. My honor patrol all purchased the expedition hat with the 2" FC badge on it and wore a colored hat cord to indicate his POR. SPL yellow, ASPL blue, PL, red, and because of the uniqueness of the hat I could identify my honor scouts from a long distance away. They also wore a specialty necker different from the rest of the troop. They carried both. When they operated as a patrol, they wore their patrol necker and when the troop gathered as a whole, they switched to the troop necker. Eventually the rest of the troop adopted their own patrol neckers and it was kind of handy. As SM one could sit 300' away and see if all the boys were in their proper patrol area or not. While none of this truly conforms to the official uniform, there is nothing that actually is deemed inappropriate for a troop to have some independence with. It was always nice to see at Eagle COH's those little pieces of lanyard and different colored neckers displayed on their memory boards. It must have meant something important to them at one point. Stosh

There are a lot of people who think the boys should not be the disciplinarians, but peer pressure is a wonderful asset to have in a troop! Of course it helped that each boy in my troop carried a 6' piece of closet rod for a walking stick. Like knives and woods tools, they were informed that it is a tool, not a weapon. I said I would allow the boy to use it in defense of himself (Rule #`1: safety first), but NEVER as an offensive weapon (Rule #2: Look and act like a Scout.) I actually never had a problem with any boy misusing his stave. If any of the boys got playful with it, a number of the boys would bring it to a halt very quickly. More than once I heard someone say off in the distance, "That's a tool, not a weapon!" I didn't always know if it was the stave, a knife, ax or saw, but the boys were taking care of it on their own. I had one new boy come to me a few weeks after getting his Totin' Chit and complain to me one of the older boys had torn up his card. I didn't even need to go ask the older boy why he did it. I asked the boy what he was doing just before the boy tore it up. He said just whittling. I asked him where. He said by the campfire. I asked why he wasn't in the whittling area. He said there wasn't a whittling area. I asked him why he didn't make one before he started. There was a long pause and he said okay and asked if he could keep his knife in his pocket until he got home. I said sure. And that was the end of the situation. Right off the bat, my first thought was some older boy was picking on him, but it turns out the system worked. Stosh

It just might be me, but the kinds of disciplinary problems I have faced generally do not even need to be escalated to the parents notification let alone Council. Any time a situation like that occurs, I'm assuming there has been a few red flags thrown up long before it got to that point. I don't know, I always try and nip it in the bud those flags long before it gets to that point. I may be a bit over the top myself on this kind of thing, but it has worked 40 years for me. I had the trading post employee accuse "someone in my troop of shoplifting" while in the store. I was told of this by the camp director. I went back and notified the SPL and he said we're ALL going back to the trading post and the culprit will be identified. He formed up the entire troop and marched them back to the trading post. Then asked the employee to point out which of the boys he saw shoplifting. He looked over the boys and said he was mistaken, none of the boys there was the boy he had seen. The SPL then addressed the employee and said, "Will you be notifying the camp staff of this misidentification or should I?" The employee said he would take care of notifying the director of his mistake. While none of my boys was involved, they all got a good lesson of what would happen if this really had occurred. Was I sure none of my boys was involved when first notified? Nope. While I trust my boys, when dealing with boys this age, any and all things can happen. Was I surprised when the employee couldn't identify any of my boys? Not surprised, but very much relieved. Stosh

Sqyire21, We don't disagree. I totally understand your dilemma of multiple classes teaching the same thing. The curriculum of the BSA definitely needs to be drawn together under one roof. The Cub people don't talk to the Webelos people and neither talk to Boy Scouting and the Venturing people aren't talking at all to anyone. To a certain extent this might in fact be a good thing. For example the Cub dad that moves into Webelos needs more training, but he's already Cub trained. That might be good for him, but not for the dad that held out until his boy was older and then took on DL for his Webelos boy. Where does he get Cub training? He has to go back and pick it up or can or should it be incorporated into the Webelos program? Then the Webelos boys go camping. Is that training all that is necessary for when dad moves on to Boy Scouts with his son? Or does he need to "add" more knowledge and what about the Dad who jumps into a leadership (ASM) when his boy goes into Boy Scouts? Does he need to go back and pick up the basics. The problem I see is that everyone comes into these programs with either previous or no previous training. How does one sort that whole thing out? If you have had cubbing training, you need to do Webelos A program, but if you haven't had cub training, you do Webelos B program???? If this be the case, can you see the nightmare forming on the horizon by the time someone gets to Boy Scouts or beyond? Now matter how you cut the pie, if one is going to err on the side of doing it right, it's better to have too much training than not enough. Is that duplication a waste of time? Probably, but along with sitting in on these classes listening to all the duplication, one might consider entering into the discussions and helping improve the presentation of some dry instructor who is reading from the syllabus! We're agreeing on the same thing, but coming at it from different perspectives. Stosh

Ever been in a rowing shell? Hmmm a flat back canoe with a motor on it? Does that qualify for motor-boating? And where does kayaking fit into all this? If the kayak paddle breaks is it now a canoe? These are some tough questions that maybe some of our legal eagles out there can address..... And by the way, I have two freighter canoes that can't be used for the canoeing merit badge because the boys have great difficulty tipping them over. Instead of the v-hull of the conventional canoe, they have wide flat bottoms and after 15+ years of whitewater canoeing, I have never accidentally rolled one in the rapids. I did once in an emergency situation, and as an adult even I had difficulty getting it rolled. Stosh

It's what the CC was doing to the SM. I would strongly encourage the CC to back off. Save the heavy hand for real bad kids.Definitely agree. One does not need to be under 18 to be a bully. Hmmm, which leads to the question, are adult-led programs breeding grounds for bullying? Who holds sway over the activities and maintains control by dictation? Just an interesting thought. Stosh

Gee, I've shown up at a camporee with a sidearm and 36" sword and no one said a thing. On the other hand, I've never been in the woods without a hunting sheath knife. It was a practice I began while in scouting and now with the more modern types of equipment it is no longer a great necessity as it once was, but for fire starting and ropes, it can't be beat. Of course for really good fire starting, the belt axe I also carry is fantastic. Of course the the belt axe is sharpened to knife keenness. That whole process is not forbidden by BSA, only local councils who feel it necessary to restrict tool usage to the level of inefficiency. It's better to bring wood from home on your hike than find appropriate wood in the forest. At least that's the way the theory goes. Stosh

Cub Scouts Assaulted on Canoe Trip; BSA Denies Coverage A recent canoe trip has left several young boys injured and the Boy Scouts of America denying any liability for the incident. According to Cub Scout Den Leader John Smith, his group of 9-year old boys were on a short canoe outing on Big Lake, accompanied by their parents. "Suddenly this guy comes up to us, calling himself Kudu, ranting and raving about the scout charter," said Mr. Smith. "I heard him say, 'You young hoodlums should be back with your den mothers making macaroni art, not out on the water where only red-blooded young men belong! I'll box you about the ears with paddles made in the fashion of those manufactured in 1916!' And he just started wailing on everybody with his paddle." But the young boy's nightmare trip had just begun. "Then another guy paddles up, apparently going by the name 'basementdweller.' Starts calling me a candy… well, he starts calling us a bunch of very non-scout-like names. Says he's going to 'turn us in to national for not following the rules,' whatever that means. Says we're not even supposed to be on the water. Starts tipping the boys out of the boats, saying he's the only one who knows the right way to canoe," Smith said. Unfortunately for these young, innocent boys, their nightmare trip wasn't over. Upon notifying the local scout office of the incident and injuries, Smith was shocked to learn that national BSA was going to disavow itself of any insurance coverage for the incident. "I got a call from some guy named 'Richard' who said that cub scouts aren't allowed to go in canoes. I never heard of such a thing," Smith said. "Apparently it's in something called the 'Gee Too Essess,' which I never got a copy of. Nobody else I know ever heard of it either. It's just heartbreaking." On contacting the BSA's national offices in Texas, a spokesperson refused to comment on the incident and instead referred the Journal to a recent press release on the organization's commitment to youth protection. I wonder if posts like this keep the ivory tower inhabitants of Irving awake at nights. Love the comment!!! Stosh

As well as it should be. I have had the unfortunate situation as an adult to have to step in on occasion, but having learned how I deal with situations, the boys do well in picking up on that and boy-led discipline is occurring all over the place. I as SM can't be everywhere all the time. I need good youth leaders picking up the slack! It is a Really Really bad situation where adults have to be called in and I have had an occasion or two where this has had to happen and it is a lose-lose for everyone! Adult interference beyond the SM should be a last resort! By the time some adult drags out his copy of the troop's rules and regulations, the situation is pretty much done for all the way around. I had a parent call once when his boy came home "kinda quiet" after a meeting. He asked him what was wrong. He said, "Nothing, I'm handling it." I asked the parent if he wanted to know what was going on or was he going to leave it to his boy to work through. I did tell him the situation wasn't the end of the world. He said he'd prefer to have his kid handle it and that was the end of the conversation. Maybe someday the boy will tell his parents what went on (I can't even remember now what it was), but it's the boy's choice, he owns the problem, he owns the solution, and once it's dealt with by me, it's history. The boy made better choices after that and I didn't have any discipline problems with him again. I also never heard back from the parent either. One last thing, if the boy was quiet after a meeting and got the same call from the parent, and I didn't know what was going on, I would have encouraged the parent to pursue it. It might have been an abuse/bully situation that slipped past me. Of course there's always the fact that the boy might have been angry with me for something as well and I would want to find that out from the parent as well. Stosh

Yep, for one thing, it reinforces the idea that they can and should take charge of their situation. They don't have to be the "victim"! I have seen some of the less timid boys stand up to the bullies and flat out tell them that they aren't having any fun and if they don't cut it out they wouldn't be having it either. It also reiterates that if a boy is being bullied, he had better step up and tell an adult right away!!! It also lengthens the time between when the situation occurs and when I address the bully. If the picked on kid is getting a bit of negative attention, what's it going to be when the other shoe drops and the bully's turn comes up. If the SM is hard on the victim, the perpetrator has a long time to sweat before I turn my attention to him. By the time I'm done with the first guy for breaking the Have Fun rule, can you imagine what's going through the mind of the guy who isn't acting like a scout? There is no woods dense enough, no hole deep enough or river wide enough for this boy to have considered in his options. The fear of their imagination is always far worse than anything I can think of. And like I said, always do the unexpected! It keeps the boys off balance. Wouldn't it be expected the bully goes first? Stosh

I guess I don't ever think there can be too much training. Some of it's good, some's redundant, others have poor trainers, but when all is said and done, something always rubs off. I have had all the training from Cubbing through Venturing and Woodbadge. I'm also a trained commissioner. But although I don't use all the training in my current position, all of it has been helpful. I guess If I'm hiring someone to do a job for me, if one candidate has an 8th grade education, and another a doctorate, it may make a bit of difference somewhere along the way as to the quality and type of job being done for me. It's a judgment call, but I would tend to be a bit biased with having too much education than not enough. Stosh

The appropriate rank badge on his shirt should be sufficient to let the world know whether or not he knows his knots (and other stuff for that matter). One doesn't need anything else, as mentioned, it borders on hazing.

In order to make it simple for the boys, I have only 3 rules I operate under. I have surprisingly little discipline problems, but I would be foolish to say I don't have any. 1) Safety first 2) Look and act like a Scout 3) Have fun I never react to breaches of these rules in a way the boys would normally expect me to. Screaming and yelling is what they expect and they figure once the tirade is done, they are off the hook. Bullying for example. I approach the picked on kid and ask him if it's fun getting bullied? Obviously the answer is always NO. So he gets a lesson on breaking rule #3. If you aren't having fun and you didn't report it to anyone, you're breaking the rule. One boy said he didn't like tattling on the others, and I simply reiterated, the fact he wasn't having fun and he was breaking the rules. The bully gets a dose of rule #2. Is bullying scout behavior (quote A Scout is Friendly)? and then HE defines the punishment. Often times they inflict more punishment on themselves than I would have dished out. So far no boy has dared to get off easy by suggesting a slap on the wrist. I had one incident where an older boy said something not very nice to one of the new boys while they were sitting at the campfire. He intended it to be a "harmless" comment, but I heard it and first of all asked the young boy what he felt about it and he said, "It was a hurtful" comment. When I asked him if he was having fun, he said, "No", to which he got an earful from me about not saying something IMMEDIATELY to an adult. He was breaking the rule! Then the older boy got an earful about respect and if he wanted the younger boys to look up to him he had better change his ways. Then I asked him what he was going to do about this incident. All of this occurred in front of all the other boys. He sat there in front of all his peers and didn't say a word for a moment. Then he got up, went over to the younger boy, apologized and asked if he could be his buddy for the next 6 months so that no other scout does what he did to him. The younger boy hesitated, but said okay. They became close friends after that. I was really surprised by the older scout's reaction because I was more using it as a learning experience than really applying any kind of punishment. I had assumed the older boy was thinking it harmless fun in the first place. However, it would seem that none of the other boys participated in that kind of harmful joking for quite some time. I caught a boy on a cell phone and asked who it was he was calling and he said his mom. I asked if I could talk to her too. He handed me the phone and it was his mom on the other end, much to my surprise. I did tell her how harmful it was for her son to have a cell phone because of the other boys who see him talking, especially those who are homesick would want to call their moms too. After our conversation I handed him back the phone and said he mother wanted to talk to him. His mother had a little chat with him at which when ended, he handed me the phone and asked me to keep it until after the campout. He never brought it with him again. A lot of times when being creative, it is far easier to deal with the scouts when treated on a peer-to-peer basis with them. With punishment it is a top down negative type of situation, but when one deals with the boy as a respected peer, they more often than not will take ownership of the situation and make appropriate corrections on their own. I guess after 40 years of working with youth I have never really had any serious situations because I constantly try to head them off before they get serious and I do so by dealing with the minor infractions in ways that the boys participate in the discipline long before they have become normally accepted traditions of bad behavior in the troop. Of course if any of these rules were written down in some policy book somewhere it would have been lost 5 minutes after being handed out. Keep it simple and apply it constantly. Like safety, one can overlook it only so long before someone gets hurt. Never let it get to that point in the first place. Stosh

The binocular idea is great. With a telescope only one boy can use it at a time, but with binoculars, they can use the buddy system. Stosh

A number of years back when I was a Webelos II leader, I took my boys on a canoe trip out to an island where they primitive camped for the weekend. They dug their own latrines, cooked on open fires and had a blast. So how does that violate G2SS? Each canoe had one boy and their father in it. Everyone had life jackets and everything went well until the thunderstorm hit in the night and basically flattened everyone's tent, soaking everything down to the skin. To this day, those boys, as adults, still say it was the best outing they were ever on. Sometimes adventures really are adventures. Stosh

OMG are you suggesting a skirt-around-the-rules pertaining to laser tag??????

The only limit I would suggest is one DC per den. They are not PACK CHIEFs, they are DEN chiefs. Every den is entitled to one. Every boy that wanted to be DC in my troop was 1) expected to do the job, 2) take and pass the DL training, and 3) earn the DC service award for 12 months of service, not just the 6 months for advancement. The DL was responsible for insuring the DC earned his DC Service Award and was told up-front the requirements. If the boy was not meeting those expectations for their den the DL was to notify me immediately! Of all the boys agreeing to this arrangement, they ALL served 12 month or more and all got their DC Service Award and I never got a call from a DL. Boys who did not want to fulfill those expectations up-front always chose a different POR for advancement. By the way, every boy that served as DC and got their DC Service Award made fantastic PL's and SPL's. They did not need to be a PL or SPL prior to doing DC. I always found that being a good DC laid the foundation for being a good PL/SPL and TG! not the other way around. It is far more challenging to be a good DC to a bunch of little guys than being a PL of your buddies. Stosh

Gee, my wife and I went on a vacation last week and used a one-burner backpack stove the whole week. We didn't have a problem, and didn't starve to death. It takes a bit more planning, but that comes with experience and actually doing it. Reading about it in a book does not make one an expert on the subject. Circumventing a requirement only insures the boy will never learn to do it right if needed. Being able to cook on a two-burner stove is great. Making the adjustments to a one-burner is laudable, but cooking on an open fire takes real skill beyond turning a adjusting screw on the burner. Taking that progression into account, a scout that can cook on an open fire will be able to adjust better to a burner stove far easier than the scout who has to because of necessity have to cook a meal on an open fire. Short changing the requirement short changes the scout. Stosh

Sounds like the leaders haven't quite gotta themselves out of eighth grade yet. Sounds like a good time to get some adult leadership for the group.

Good point. Probably because the boys can not be trusted to do it themselves. Stosh