Stosh

OMG, I just went blind! Stosh

BP had the right idea when he said patrols needed to be 6-8 boys. Even if half don't show up for an event, one never has less than 3 to 4 boys in a patrol. If 7 boys bail on an event so as to have only one boy attending, I would reconsider the activity in the first place. If only one boy wants to go, is it enough to even call it a patrol outing let alone a troop outing? Having activities for the sake of having activities isn't enough justification, especially if the vast majority of boys are taking a pass on it. Stosh

That is cast iron! You are correct, however, it's the easiest way to do a crowd.

It's not just thst life has a lot of options to deal with, but what message is given to the boy whose absense isn't noticed? You could not make it the last event? No problem, we got along just fine without you. Stosh

It doesn't need to be GS or DC, any scout would gladly watch the kids as a good turn. Good thing you threw in the DC thingy, or I'd have to slap you down for being chauvinistic. Stosh

To each his own. Everyone deals with situations differently. I handle it in a manner that tends to forgo problems of a more serious nature further on down the road. Maybe this is why I have very seldom had to handle major problems in my working with youth. One can decide to coddle the victim and tell him how unfortunate he is having been bullied, or you can teach him to stand up to the bully and deal with the situation he finds himself in. If he simply sits there and "takes it" he is in fact enabling the bully and every other bully in his life to continue the process. If he doesn't report it, he enables the bullies as well. There comes a day when the "victim" can choose not to be a victim any longer and needs to learn how to step up to the plate and deal with it. My "yelling" at the "victim" is paramount to giving him permission to not be a victim anymore and that I expect him to say something about it to someone. st0ut717: if you read carefully my comments, I didn't blame the "victim" for the situation, I only "corrected" the part where he didn't deal with it. Punishment? Since when is a lesson on standing up for oneself a punishment? Permission to report abuse is now considered a punishment? Giving out the lesson in front of everyone so everyone learns bullying won't be tolerated in the troop/pack? That's a punishment, too? You are right on one account, I'm lucky you're not one of my adults. I work in a multi-billion dollar, international business and as such part of a culture of safety in an industrial setting. When I see people doing dangerous things, I do not address them directly, but deal with the unsafe situation at hand. I apply correction actions to contain the danger and then get a commitment from the person that such activity will not repeat itself. It is my intent to keep the worker safe, not punish him/her for their unsafe behavior. So with the bullying situation, I stop the situation and correct the actions of those participating. First the "victim" who needs to address it immediately and then the bully who in fact does get a boat load of "A Scout is courteous, kind, helpful, and friendly", and how it will apply to Scout Spirit come advancement time. Just as a thought to consider, corrective action to a situation is not punishment. Punishment is something that is done after the fact by those that feel it necessary to do more than just correct the situation. Far to often punishment does nothing more than steel the resolve of those who participate in anti-social behavior and just get better at hiding it. Stosh

I have some stainless that someone burn food onto and to this day, no amount of elbow grease has been able to clean it up. If the stainless wasn't so thin to begin with, I would toy with the idea of sandpaper and electric drill. By the way, even the oven cleaner stuff didn't do the trick. Stosh

Pack funds are for the boys. PERIOD. If meals are to be at an event for adults, then they pick up the tab. Same for child care. People do not contribute funds to a pack or troop to be spent on the on the adults. Stosh

There are drawbacks to any cookware, but in the long run the cast iron is the best if you know what you are doing. If properly seasoned, and used with the correct heat, it IS NO STICK! If you get food to stick on cast iron, you are way to hot. Nothing needs cooking beyond medium in cast iron. If you do not use it often, season with bees wax instead of oil. It works the same except you need to heat up when you are done cleaning so the wax will flow on the iron. In order to get it right, you need to burn off all the old oil and reseason the metal with wax. If done properly, you can store your cast iron for years and it will never rust nor go rancid. The only way to ruin cast iron is pour cold water in a hot pan or drop it on a very hard surface. The biggest drawback to cast iron is it's weight. Stainless steel is good only for items that have water to boil. If you boil it dry, your stainless is pretty shot. Because of the variety of different people using the cookware, you will quickly learn that whatever cookware it is, it's not going to last. Someone, somewhere along the way is going to do a number on it. Stosh

Gotta remember that the 300' rule applies to adults as well. Stosh

When I was a scout, we didn't have any real fundraisers except for the troop. That paid for gear, etc. for the troop. There were no individual accounts. People who give to troops only to have it used personally by the scouts run some rather thin lines in the process. Therefore I tell the boys to do what I did as a scout, go out and make your own money to pay for your scouting career. We had to have full uniforms and we had to pay for them ourselves. I came from a low income family so if I wanted to be in scouts I had to shovel walks, rake leaves, spade over gardens, run errands, etc. Child labor laws? It wasn't until I was old enough to have a paper-route, that the law came into play. There's nothing out there that says a boy can't make his own money and forego the popcorn sales, candy bar sales, pancake breakfast, chili suppers and waiting around for someone to contribute to the troop so they can get a chunk of it for themselves. Part of scouting is learning how to take care of yourself, and that means financially as well. Sitting around playing video games waiting for the next handout doesn't cut it much in my world. Someone contributes to the troop? Good, we can get a new tent or stove for the boys. OR... a new stove costs $40 and there are twenty boys in the troop... Do the math, that means each boy gets $2 towards summer camp.... Now that's a "thrifty" proposition if I ever saw one. Stosh

Yeah, right, like my Council cares whose check pays for it? Maybe I can't take a tax write-off on it, but I donate to the boys not because of what I get out of it, but because of what the boys get out of it. I donate time, talent and resources. Why would resources be any different than time and talent? Stosh

One of the major problems of written communication is that tone, inflection, and body language are not present. With that being said, with what one person says is read as inferring may or may not be true. Inferences are often assumptions I often "read into" that simply aren't there. Forums are a tremendously beneficial tool, but because of it's nature is riddled with opportunities for misreads. That is unfortunate indeed. I always come back to the true definition of assume So often we are limited with space (no one likes a long thread) so we try to be as precise as possible, and much of the meaning often gets left out. Typos, make it hard to read at times. You are correct on many times we run parallel in our thinking, sometimes not. It's no big deal, it's important that it be said so others get a chance to learn. After all, where's the learning when everyone is on the same page? From where I stand you run a very good traditional type boy-led emphasis program. I guess I'm a bit more push the envelop type of person. I don't know if it's a curse or a blessing, but I see so much potential in these young boys, I can't resist on helping them get as much as possible out of that potential before they move on to adulthood. I see the BSA program as a tool to help there, not a goal in and of itself. Maybe if I had a large troop it would be different, but having dealt with small troops, it gives me the opportunity to know these boys individually. I have had experience with 40+ troops, but they tended to be adult-led and that really wasn't my gig. Right now I have a "troop" of 2 boys. We've started meeting regularly and rather than being disappointed with such a slow start, I am 100% psyched to be able to pursue this because I see so much potential in it, it makes it all worthwhile. The two Webelos crossovers are already talking about whitewater canoeing and I have to teach them to set up tents first. Stosh

When in Rome, do as the Romans??? Or, maybe they don't worry if you burn down a Canadian, Mexican forest? Or, maybe if you're not an American you don't need to worry about burning down American forests.???? Or, maybe we got a corner on the market for taking care of the outdoors??? These are as good a guess as any when it comes to the way the minds in Texas work. And by the way, I challenge anyone out there to say my reasons aren't for real. Stosh

Beyond FC, the scout really doesn't really pick up any real skill development, mostly leadership, projects and merit badges. A FC scout is (well, should be) trained enough to take care of himself in the outdoors well enough to enjoy the program. FC used to be the highest rank in BSA. The additional ranks are there to occupy the boys till they turn 18. Yeah they're nice, but unless forced by requirements, they should be doing such things as leadership, service and MB's anyway. Stosh

Sorry if my experience seems made up to you. You can be assured that I really don't care what others do or think, this forum is for providing a variety of different things that others have tried so that still others might get some ideas of what they might do in their troops to improve it. I really don't have the creativity or time to make stuff up. I do visualize the potential of others and assist them with at least working towards them. Some have been successful, others haven't. I don't think it very helpful, unless specifically requested, to reiterate the failures. We all have them and commiserating them isn't very helpful. However, where things have worked, and dynamics to which I have assisted my boys with that pan out are worth sharing. Feel free to offer up your suggestions, I welcome them even if I don't agree with them. Hopefully they assist others in their tasks, but running down others who have found success with differing ideas/dynamics really isn't very helpful. I'm sure others would turn out differently, but the first boy who I told "Take care of your boys," did exactly that. He was dynamic and enthusiastic and as it turns out was very successful both in Scouting (Eagled) and in his military career. The second boy I said that to was shy, quiet, and reserved but the boys in his patrol really liked him and kept reelecting him PL until he screwed up and I took PL from him. His boys were really ticked, but instead of leading the patrol, he spent 6 months as an ad hoc TG unofficially and trained his PL replacement until he Eagled, did a stint as SPL and aged out of the troop. So my advise stands. Stosh

Merlyn: Well, it sounds like a legal issue, not a race issue. That's why the NAACP was started by people who were lawyers. And as you pointed out they were WHITE lawyers. Does it really matter whether the victim is black, white, brown, red, yellow, blue or green? Is it significant if all of the victims were black, and the perpetrators were white, and often members of law enforcement or the legal system? Again, you point out the issue is about blacks. If people are out there killing other people (even the reason why is not important) they need to be held accountable and at the very least, taken out of society and locked up for a long time. Guess how hard it is when the sheriff is doing the lynching. But of course the sheriff is WHITE and contrary to your comment, it might be difficult, but not impossible. Sorry, but in everyone of my comments they had nothing to do with race, and everyone of our comments did. I don't care one iota about race, but you obviously do, so our conversation can be over. Stosh

"Personal growth" part of the process is not listed in the MB book as one of the requirements. Well that is just but one of the objections one is going to face when trying to change this kind of troop. It's way to easy to teach MB's than it is to teach such things as leadership, maturity development and teamwork dynamics of a patrol. One is dealing with a totally clueless group of adults that run troops under these conditions. Stosh

When one gets wrapped up in the details, they strip the potential out of the whole process. If I tell my PL to, "Take care of your boys." Is it not up to him to do it according to his own strengths and abilities? I have had dynamic PL's and quiet serious PL's. Both have done VERY well. I'm not about to go out there and sell them a one size fits none type of training. One of the greatest dynamics in the boys' leadership development is that there is no one good way to do it. Do it the best you know how to do it. If it doesn't work, try something else. Now, if along the way one were to consider coaching on the part of the adults "training" then I'm guilty of that, but I cannot train a boy unless I first spend time watching to see what he is doing right and not-so right. Then I can assist him in moving forward. How does one put that into a program/handbook/or curriculum? As far as everyone having a job to do? Yeah right, look at the wasted time boys involve themselves in because they really don't have anything to do except find ways to get into trouble. Or maybe the ASPL who sits on his hands 95% of the time and messing where he doesn't belong the other 5%. Or the SPL of a one patrol troop. Who's really running the show here the SPL or the PL? I just cringe every time I see this formula drawn up for the failure of the boys. It's kinda like a train wreck in slow motion. You know it's going to turn out bad, but one justifies it by telling themselves it's a good learning opportunity for the boy. Patrols of 15 boys? Heck there aren't 15 different things for the boys to do. 8 focused boys can do the all the necessary work just fine. The only thing the bigger a waste of time in a troop than an SPL with less than 3-4 patrols, is the ASPL in a troop with less than 3-4 patrols. It's a gimmie Position of Responsibility with no responsibility. Shared duties and teamwork have been a hallmark of the BSA from the beginning. My concern is that it is no longer. One does not learn esprit-de-corps and teamwork from a book. One can define leadership as what one does all day long, but in the long run leadership is what one is. I can follow the leadership training book to a T, but if no one is following, I'm not a leader. Period. Stosh

Because all of a sudden there's a cause to point out that there are the real people over here and the not real people over there. Some people just aren't happy unless they are complaining about something. If these people want to do something else, what business is it of mine? None whatsoever! MYOB used to mean something in a free society. It only goes to show how much freedom we've lost over the past 200+ years. Stosh

Merlyn: Well, it sounds like a legal issue, not a race issue. Does it really matter whether the victim is black, white, brown, red, yellow, blue or green? If people are out there killing other people (even the reason why is not important) they need to be held accountable and at the very least, taken out of society and locked up for a long time. If they can't live peacefully in a community, put them someplace where everyone in that community can be safe. Too often I am inundated with the BS (not Boy Scout) about how it's okay for black kids to beat up a white kid, but white kids can't beat up a black kid. Hypocrisy aside, why do we have kids out there beating up other kids? Lock them up so all our kids can be safe. Who taught these bullies about us/them reasoning in the first place????! People aren't born that way, they are taught it. And how was that done? By people spending an enormous amount of time pointing out to them race is a big deal when in fact it isn't. Stosh

KDD, hmmm, where did I express it either way? All I said was organizations that promote racism or even attempt to draw race distinctions, do not show up on my personal radar. I have better things to do that worry about knowing who's on which side. It's call toleration, something that is a foreign concept to American society today. So if one wishes to distort my comments far enough, I'm sure one could make the the case that yes, I haven't the time of day, nor the energy on organizations that spend any amount of effort on racial issues. Whereas I don't view people based on their race, more so on their character, it has no relevance to me. I guess I prefer to hang out with what I would call NICE people. How you wish to translate that is up to you. I have no control over what you think. Merlyn: as far as your comments, knowing who's white and who's black in the NAACP (sorry for the earlier typo), is of no interest to me, nor is the cause to which they adhere. As long as they don't interfere in my freedoms, they can do whatever they want. Had you said the NAACP was created by people with an agenda to promote the black community, I would still have quit listening. Of course if any organization was created by people with an agenda to promote one community over another community, my ears will shut down. Now if any organization was created by people with an agenda to promote their community as a whole, then I'll hear them out. That's where I invest my efforts. Stosh

As long as people think in terms of us and them, it will continue just as it has since day one.... That what was surprising with the Founding Father's documents. Freedom for all is a concept that simply cannot be accepted by the us/them people. Letting people live in a way they wish basically usurps their power base, something they cannot tolerate. Stosh

One of the thing I like about BH's approach to the patrol method is: everyone has a job to do. That approach to teamwork is what is necessary to keep people from just coming along for the ride. Patrols of 10+ people must have a ton of baggage floating around with their activities. As far as training is concerned, let the boys figure out what THEY THINK each person needs to be doing to make the patrol work. If there's money involved, the Treasurer works with the various team members. Surely the Treasurer and Grubmaster are going to have a few conversations along the way and so with the Quartermaster. Then the Quartermaster is going to be talking to the Treasurer when equipment breaks down or disappears. This "separation" of duties is no separation at all, it is the definition of how each patrol member interacts with each other. PL is the go-to guy. The one that has the responsibility to make everything work as smoothly as possible and the liaison to other patrols. APL is the PL's right-hand man that insures that the PL doesn't have to be in two places at the same time. Treasurer handles all finances and keeps track of the pennies. Reports back to the PL the status of the treasury on a regular basis, Works with Quartermaster, Grubmaster, and anyone in the patrol that has $$ concerns. So is it positional training or relationship training that is necessary? Too often we focus on roles and one ends up with the less-than-stellar team building comment of: "Hey, that isn't my job! It's not listed on my job description!" I started with BH's information but developed it beyond to include how each basic premise of each position is interrelated to each other. The only training my PL ever got from me was: "Take care of your boys!" The training for Grubmaster: "Make sure the boys get fed well." etc. They figured it out very quickly, do what it takes to make the whole team/patrol work together, and that is relationship specific not role definitions. If you don't have a training handbook, start with the boys. The sports guys know teamwork, as do the music people, etc. They rely on each other to make the whole thing work. So it should be for the patrols. Stosh

It's kinda too bad that groups can no longer gather on similarities. Everything has to be diverse. While we promote this in certain aspects of life, we violently object to it in others. I want to join a group that basically doesn't want me around??? Why would I ever consider doing that???? Now to me the only rationale for such activity is to dictate to that group one's own beliefs. I'm going to join a Christian group to make it something other than Christian? Yep, we call that DIVERSITY. I'm going to join any group and going to make it Christian? And then the fight begins....! Yep, we call that TERRORIST, HATE MONGERS. I know such groups out there such as the NCCAP and KKK that promote certain principles, neither of which I am interested in being involved with. I have no desire to join either group, nor am I interested in disrupting their organizations by making them diverse. First of all I highly doubt whether it would do any good. On the other hand I don't what what they are promoting to dictate to me. I leave them alone, they leave me alone. That seems fair to me. Basically I don't personally like to be associated with anything racist, one way or the other, for or against. Why? Because the first thing I must do is judge people based on race to know who's my friend and who isn't. With all the fur flying, it's pretty hard to tell one hypocrite from another out there these days. Stosh