Stosh

It reminds me of a police friend of mine. I was hassling him about his baton and gun one day and I asked him why he carried a baton. He said to deal with an unarmed person. Then I asked him what he used if the guy had a knife. He said he'd pull his pistol. Then I said, what if he had a gun. Then with a dead-pan straight face, he said, "I'd shoot first." 550% odds? Heck, always keep the odds in your favor and that means Be Prepared, carry a gun and know how to use it. Stosh

As I read through the two troops, they seem to be extreme opposites. With that being said, you will not like my choice of the two. Personally, if it was my kid, the problems of your current troop can be corrected, but the other troop with 40 people on the committee, half wood badge, a "hoard" of ASM's, no 300', etc. it seems like a mega-adult run program. Your kid sounds like me as a kid and I have a ADD son myself so i know where you are coming from. Your best bet would be to help the existing troop improve rather than lock into a troop that isn't going to change a thing. You said there are a lot of nice people in the first troop, but lack skills. Those can easily be acquired and they might actually welcome any coaching, assisting to improve their program. Not enough parental support? You're a parent, roll up your sleeves and get to work. I ran a year-round program with a committee of 5 adults and me and 1 ASM. We had parents help out whenever asked for an occasional activity here or there and for driving. We had a troop of 24 scouts, 3 patrols. Because we were not adult-top heavy, the boys ran the program and it worked very well. Well, until the parents of a couple of scouts complained that the boys were expected to do too much leadership, stepped in, took over and I was on the outside looking in. There was another troop like your second one described a few miles away, run by an iron-fisted SM and a "hoard" of ASM's. Once the boys realized they were not going to be able to run their own troop, they shifted over to the other troop (about half of them) and just let the adults do everything for them. They figured as long as they were going to end up with an adult led program, might as well be one that's bigger and they won't have to do as much work for the same benefit. If it was me, listen to the advice of this forum, learn and share with the troop you are currently with, roll up your sleeves and help it be the troop which is the real promised land, Remember as you scout out new troops, they know you're in the market, they will put their best foot forward, but buyer beware. Read the fine print. Turn over a couple of rocks and see what's really there. Right now I have an unorganized troop with one lone scout attending every week. A second scout is due to join in mid November, we are recruiting from their pool of friends, and just yesterday, I got an email from a pack wanting their Webelos II come and visit our "troop". I have both parents of the first boy ready to sign on as registered adults. Am I frustrated after 9 months of work? Heck no... I see potential and opportunity around every corner I turn. This is great! Oh, and by the way, your son sound exactly like the lone scout in my troop. Stosh

I guess I have trouble wrapping my mind around 40 people going on a backpack trip together. The only time we dealt with a "large" group (18) was BWCA and we had two groups because the permit limits the number to 9. Two permits, two groups, have a nice trip, we'll see you next weekend. End of discussion. Stosh

Whatever line-of-march one chooses, it should be determined by the group. When I refer to a "leader" I am not referring to any adults. The adults in my book anyway are just added baggage required by National BSA to have along. 1) The PL leads the group down the trail. He is looking for whatever the boy behind him tells him is his next landmark, split in the trail, or whatever is necessary to consider. He doesn't need to keep track of map and compass, he has a responsibility to find the trail on the ground, not on the map. 2) The second scout is the navigator. He has the map and compass. If the leader has questions, he can stop, turn around and consult with the guy who should know where they are going. The navigator doesn't need to see the trail, only the map hanging on the leader's backpack and the compass in his hands. 3) The third scout is the slowest of the group. This person sets the pace for the trek. If he were to be in the back, he could in fact stretch the line of march out so far that the boys on the tail could lose contact with the leader in the front. This way, the slowest is right up there with the leader and the leader can adjust the pace accordingly by glancing over his shoulder to see if #3 is struggling, lagging, or whatever. The #3 could lag 30 yards and the leader will still be able to see him at a glance. 4) All the rest of the group except the last one are next. This is where all the adults need to be! Each one keeping 6' - 10' intervals, so that the hiker behind can see the trail and if he trips doesn't domino the group from behind. 5) The last person in line is second-in-command (APL). He carries a whistle to communicate any problems to the PL in the lead. The PL and APL can create any signal system they wish just so they know what's communicated. The APL does not pass by anyone, he's the last person down the trail no matter what. If a boy straggles and wants a break, the APL signals the PL with the whistle and buddies up with the straggler. As mentioned, he also carries the first aid kit for the troop. He is the ONLY boy on the trek who has constant visual contact with the entire group all the time. He sees everyone ahead of him, he does not need to turn around and occasionally look behind to see what's going on. He is the "safety officer" of the group. This person really has the most important responsibility throughout the trek. The leader and navigator can make mistakes and the boys will all have a good laugh around the campfire, the safety officer cannot afford any. Builder: From the description I have given, if you are an adult and taking the safety officer position at the tail, then I would consider moving to a boy-led program. You are in fact taking away an opportunity to lead from one of the boys. Train a boy to do it and then get in the middle of the pack and trust your boys and enjoy the hike. If he blows his whistle, then and only then do you have to start worrying about anything. Your APL will not only learn responsibility, but will be able to totally observe and learn how the trek is progressing so when he becomes PL he'll have an understanding of what his new APL is struggling with at the rear and can teach him accordingly. A progression of leadership is important to develop in the group. If an adult is in that progression, the boys will miss an opportunity to lead for real. As an adult on the Philmont trek, I knew I was going to fall behind so every night I would extensively study the map because I was for sure going to eventually lose contact with the group and would need to know the trail. The navigator should be doing the same thing. That day's trek should be engrained in his mind so that a glance at the map and a glance at the compass tell him he's going where he is supposed to be going. Out on the trail, decisions by consensus of the group should not be necessary. The three leaders of the trek should have as much detail worked out as possible long before the first foot is placed on the trail. Stosh

The boys were not "out-hiking" me, they were on a determined death march. In the afternoon once we quit for the day, the leader that stayed back with me and I would talk about all the neat things we saw along the trail. And even though we trailed the group, they missed wildlife and vistas all along the trail. The boys dumped their packs and listened in on what we talked about because all they saw all day long was the trail and where they were going to put their next step. The entire group had walked, head down, right by a herd of bedded down mule deer not 15' from the trail. I got pictures, they missed it all. The weight wasn't the problem, I carried my gear and a portion of the camp gear just like everyone else. I'm not willing to make it more difficult on a boy who is the one who is supposed to be enjoying the trek by passing part of my load to him. It was the pace that the SM and the lead boy took. It was a classic example of Turtle and Hare. I figured out on the very first day that even though I had practiced long distance with heavy pack, the thin air of Philmont was not something I could have trained for. I had to slow down my pace even a bit to adjust for the lack of oxygen. As the trek wore on, I could increase my pace as I adjusted to the air. By the time the trek was over, I was traveling at a pace the boys began with, but as they too adjusted, picked up their pace even faster. And to be totally honest about the whole thing, we would hike from 6 am until 10 or 11. There was no need to get done that early. Site activities didn't begin until mid to late afternoon. Sure it got hot by mid-day, but a slower pace and more water would have done everyone just fine. Stosh

Why should I have to live in a fortress because of the world around me? And real fortresses are not only impregnable, but also well armed. But if one wishes to spend the rest of their lives barricaded in their homes, it's rather unfortunate that they longer have the freedom to safely go to the grocery store anymore, especially the Safeway stores...... Stosh

Sometimes that isn't enough... I spent 9 months daily hiking with increased distance and load. By the time I left I was up to 10-15 miles with overloaded pack on hilly terrain. Even then my 50 year old body couldn't keep up with a 16 year old who probably didn't do anything to get ready for the trip. Stosh

Or you could always have to face the smart-alec scout that is so impressed with his full uniform that when I told him he needed it to be tucked in, reached down and tucked his pants into his socks so everyone would know he had new scout socks. Even I got a chuckle out of that one.... Stosh

Hmmm.... does this rule apply to CLASS B t-shirts? (I just cringe using that term...) Stosh

According to tradition (and possibly logic): the leader is the first in line of march. The navigator with map/compass is second. And the SLOWEST person is third. Everyone else is 6' apart and the assistant leader brings up the rear to catch any stragglers. See if that ever flies in most troops. One of the problems with my Philmont trek was the "leader" was a huge football player who carried a pack that didn't carry but 25# of gear. I knew from the get-go I wasn't going to be able to keep pace with him. Eventually the boys figured it out too and began dumping their load on him just to slow him down a bit. Stosh

Yeah, like that's going to do any good. They say they have to have a FULL uniform and you know how much traction that got. Stosh

Sometimes the SM overrules the boys. On the Philmont trek where I had a slower pace and lagged behind with another adult, the boys were not allowed to go with the slower group even though both groups had 2 adults. Eventually I became immune to the SM's tirades and settled in and enjoyed my hike. Needless to say I never got blisters and the only other one on the trek who didn't get blisters was one of the boys who took my advice instead of the "requirements" of the SM. He too, got an earful. Needless to say, I eventually moved on to another troop. Stosh

Of course I used an extreme example to point out that numbers are not always the issue. If one has only 6 boys showing up out of 100 the issue might not be attendance, but maybe there's some valid reason why 94 boys chose not to attend... MAYBE it could be the activity/program choice. BP suggests that patrols are 6-8 boys, that means on average with 60% attendance you should minimally have 4-5 boys for the event, enough not to have to ad hoc the patrols. He doesn't suggest going over 8 because the average PL can't handle bigger groups of boys in the patrol. BGG goes for the 6-8 as well. Sometimes tradition has some underlying validity to it that isn't always evident to the casual observer. I keep my patrols 6-8 and I never have had to consolidate patrols, unless the activity was something the boys really didn't want to attend in the first place and that has nothing to do with patrols, but the program itself. Stosh

At least people will have a choice now to either stand there and get shot or make an attempt to defend themselves. And automatically getting a gun is not the norm anymore. Yes, I can get a gun and I can get a permit, but the paperwork, waiting periods, etc. all make the process difficult. Meanwhile, the criminal steals a gun, has immediate access to the Safeway parking lot and you get shot over a loaf of bread waiting for your paperwork to clear. The law-abiding citizen always seem to end up on the short end of the stick. While I never want to be put in a position of having to defend myself, I sure hope I never have to just stand there and die or watch my wife die because of some government bureaucracy. Stosh

OR.... it isn't producing what was promised and it isn't just a few who got whipped into a frenzy, but everyone getting a hit in the pocketbook, losing their benefits/hours, and even some losing their promised keep-your-doctor-of-choice and ending up with a high premium, no benefits, government sponsored/directed process. People are beginning to see the "benefits" of the program and they aren't really all that happy, but egos and politics don't allow for any "maybe this wasn't such a good idea" kinds of discussions to either correct or remove the problem. Stosh

Yeah, but the boys will all remember the adventure they had. Don't cha just hate the politics that wreck it for the boys? A few sore feet and memories of a lifetime, that's what Scouting is all about.

Dumping more boys into a patrol to increase those at an event is not really solving the problem. Having 100 boys in a patrol so that 6 show up for events only emphasizes there's a bigger problem going on and that simply pushing numbers around isn't really addressing the issue. Covering symptoms is not working on a cure. Stosh

Eagledad mentioned something in another thread that sparked my curiosity. He commented that the boys tend to be more resilient than adults when it comes to rugged activities. At 63 I would totally agree with him on that point. So then this is where my thread points: The boys are in it for the challenge and the adventure. Because adults are less capable of what the boys are, do we as adults tend to hold the boys back from some really good adventures? If the boys wanted to go to Philmont at 63, I'm not interested, but I would work my darnedest to find younger adults to take them or put them into another trek with younger adults who could handle the rigors of Philmont. What do we hold the boys back on? Do we think they can't do it so we call it off? What kind of limits are we putting on these boys? Stosh

Sounds like a great kid, not afraid of a challenge. That's good. If one can survive on Pop Tarts/hot dogs, they can survive on granola/gorp. When I was that weight, I did have a paper route so I had leg strength but poor upper arm strength. I could walk forever, but heavy packs were a problem. That's why I had to learn to adjust weight on just about every outing. If I could balance it properly, my legs did the work. Beefing up will take some time, but if he works at it he won't miss out on much. I had one boy on my Philmont trek that carried 50% of his body weight. He had a 50#+ pack and he weighed 110#. He was small, but he had trained for a year before the trek, every day, weights, running, and hiking. He was the only boy on the trek that had a smile on his face the whole time. I asked him what his secret was. He said he put cement blocks in his backpack and jogged for miles each day. He said, whatever Philmont tossed at him, it had to be easier than that! 25-65 is pretty chilly for a single wool blanket. However, I have a rubber gum blanket that when it gets cold, I put on a stocking cap and roll up in the gum blanket and wool blanket like a cocoon. That holds in a ton of heat, really not too bad, but for a young boy starting out without such experience/knowledge, 25 degrees is quite a challenge. I froze my butt off many a trip until I figured out how it works best for me. Not much fun, but it is quite a motivator. Stosh

I so totally agree! You'll always have more problems with adults than with the boys. I've done Philmont and I've done BWCA, and it's the adults that ticked me off more than any of the boys. If it wasn't for YPT, I'd just take the boys and go. I would enjoy it a lot more, instead I tend to babysit the adults so the boys can have fun. Stosh

The comments posted pretty much come out of some of the original Scout Handbooks. Don't blame the messenger. There are a lot of kids out there today that can't handle the rigors of scouting as it was originally practiced. Every parent has to decide for their children what is best, but I camped a lot as a young scout of 65-100# that couldn't afford a sleeping bag and used my father's Navy wool blanket. For me, I did not grow up in a houseful of money. My mother did not work and my father was a milk deliveryman. If I couldn't borrow things from my parents (both big into trailer camping), I had to buy it out of my own funds. I learned very early on the value of money, A Scout is Thrifty. I was 2-3 years into scouting before I could afford a basic, no-floor, pup tent that had a back vestibule and no front doors. We did not have troop tents. So, if your son can't handle it, that's okay. But there are those on the forum who may have economically depressed boys that could benefit from advice from the early scouting years. It's a combination of what is necessary to get to the event, even if you can't afford the latest and greatest REI equipment. Even Campmor isn't cheap anymore. Over the years I have camped from one end of the spectrum to the other, wood blanket bedroll under the stars to "camping" in a Pace Arrow motorhome. More often than not, I do the bedroll under the stars or an open ended pup tent. And for those who feel my reenacting background is an influence on that? Nope, both my wife and I camp this way and she's not into reenacting, she's just into getting out into the woods as often as possible. And eating trail mix for a weekend? Well, that's HER idea. For her, camp coffee and trail mix is the only way to get the furthest into the woods. She can't carry a 50# pack and I'm not carrying her share. There's a limit even I draw. Because camping is an environment that is not totally conducive to creature comforts, one must accept a certain degree of uncomfortableness. That varies from one person to the next. Generally I'm not all that uncomfortable, but I'm sure there are those that would not accept camping as I do it. Your mileage may vary... Stosh

If someone wishes to follow the format that will be eventually used in Boy Scouts, the den members can select their denner however they wish. Consensus or vote or whatever THEY want. The denner is trained in his duties and then (if it were my boys) would stay in that position until the boys decided differently. If the boy is not doing the job, he's out, if he does a good job, then keep him there. If his is doing a bang up job, then have the boys pick an assistant denner for him to train up the next guy. Rotating denners on an adult determined formula is a recipe for disaster. Usually the boys are not trained nor given enough time to work out their leadership style. Even if the boys are never denners themselves, they at least get to see how a good one works, so when their time comes to be considered for PL, he'll have a heads up on what a good one is. Stosh

Whoa, what you're suggesting is having a new 16 year-old driver take on a 66 passenger bus as their first test drive. KDD I wouldn't take him....at 65 pounds he cannot even carry all of his own personal gear. Have you purchased his pack? it will probably weigh at least 5 pounds, Yucca pack, about 1# - $15 on EBay change of socks and undies 2 pound, Less than a pound - already has them sleeping bag 9 pounds standard coleman 30 degree bag.... Wool blanket and plastic groundcloth - 3-4# - Check your closet and hit the hardware store for a couple of bucks water 2 liters 4 pounds.... Canteen $5-10 That is about right His gear is already over what he should be carrying and doesn't have food, tent flashlight rain gear..... Poncho doubles as raingear and tent, small pocket light weighs but ounces. 4-5 cups of homemade gorp - 3000 calories/day. No need for messkit. It's doable and doesn't cost a fortune. It just takes thinking along the lines of what's necessary and what isn't. Seriously? a 9# bulky sleeping bag? Even I wouldn't carry that much wasted space and weight. For cooler weather, you can always use a haversack (food bag), canteen, bedroll combo to forgo the pack weight. Bedrolls tend to be warmish and bulky when hiking, but are a lot easier to carry than a backpack. Not much room for luxuries, but as he grows and strengthens, he can add them as he can handle the weight beyond the basics. Stosh

Yet the ingenuity of the "some folk" figured out a way to work around it... I have more faith in the American Public than I do it's government. Stosh

The largest war ever fought by the US was paid for without a federal income tax. If the federal government were to get out of all the programs that are not mandated by the Constitution and let the states take care of it, the debt would disappear VERY quickly. It's just that the government has become addicted to having their hands in everyone's pockets, it's going to be difficult to pull off. Stosh