Stosh

Classic example of political devolution. The Founding Fathers were trying to avoid this and stated as such right from the beginning. Now that the Constitution has become obsolete, we can expect the normal course of events to take over. Stosh

Did you even bother to read your "evidence"? And by the way, you haven't addressed my questions either.

Standard answer: When one is confronted with the lack of evidence to support one's beliefs, simply attack the other person. Name calling is not providing evidence. Stosh

Once you understand group dynamics and how it affects the individuals (mob mentality) you can see why there are differences in the patrols. If everyone in the patrol is gung-ho on scouting, pick any scout and toss him into the mix, he'll take on those characteristics. And if one has a slacker patrol, take your best scout toss him into the mix and he'll get tired of beating his head against the wall and become a slacker, too. One also has to be careful with definitions when it comes to this issue. A certain amount of fuzzy logic can be applied to give a false reading on what shade of gray we're dealing with. To assume that a troop is boy-led or adult-led is pretty black and white and for the most part all troops fall somewhere in the gray area in between, probably neither as the dynamics change. In some respect the troop may be boy-led and in other respects adult-led. The thread was designed to evaluate where in the gray area someone's troop may fall. Stosh

Evolution has been assumed. No scientific evidence. If it has, please point me in that direction. I haven't ever seen any Blood-engorged mosquito fossil found About 46 million years ago, a mosquito sunk its proboscis into some animal, perhaps a bird or a mammal, and filled up on a meal of blood. Copyright 2013 LiveScience, a TechMediaNetwork company. Why hasn't the mosquito "evolved"???? One would think that after 46 million years there should be some change.... Nope, the theory is just a guess at best. Somethings evolve and others don't? And that's a reliable conclusion we all need to buy into. Or in this case maybe evolution hasn't been observed correctly. On the other hand the decline of nature is obvious to anyone who has vividly observed that 99.9% of all species have NOT evolved, but become extinct. Of course, I sleep at night really well knowing that I am a mutated form of primordial pond scum. "Political evolution thingy" doesn't hold water either? Observably, it can only be concluded all political powers that have ever been created by man have deteriorated and collapsed. It has not "evolved" into a better system over the years, it simply declines, over and over again according to all observable evidence. One kinda gets a bit skeptic of all these new and better ideas that come along that simply are just a rehash of the same-old, same-old that isn't going anywhere and is definitely not "evolving" into something better. Political evolutionary thingy is based on the pseudo-sciences of psycology, sociology, anthropology, etc. They change constantly and not necessarily for the better. Kinda makes wonder why natural laws do not change, but stay constant... and all else evolves for the better? And yet simple observations are just the opposite? Like I said, show me the evidence. Stosh

Kinda scary to have the light bulbs turning on, especially after talking directly with the boys. One has to name the problem before they can solve it. I like your ladder a lot more. Well done. Stosh

Theory of Evolution (no scientific evidence to support it) assumes things continually improve as time goes on. Natural Law of Thermaldynamics (scientifically proven) says things continually disintegrate as time goes on. So, how's that political evolution thingy working out for you? Stosh

Wait until you see the premiums those companies can now charge and the services you will not longer be able to get because the government is now giving directives to private companies like BCBS as to what they no longer have to pay for. AFFORDABLE CARE ACT has nothing to do with the bill you receive once you realize what they no longer provide at a higher deductible and premium. I remember the days of $100 deductibles, now they are talking $1000+. Sure its affordable, $1000 deductible was costing me $325/month 10 years ago. What's it now? $1500 deductible at $185/month - Blue Cross, Blue Shield, subsidized further by my company. If I lost my benefits, that same policy under COBRA would be $370/month. Yep, we've come a long way, Baby. Fortunately I get a better rate through my company and in 2 years I'll simply be able to stick it to the taxpayers if Medicare is still around because 65+ is mandatory single payer. No private insurance company is going to touch it. They'll sell you supplemental to cover what the government doesn't, and that's about it. Insurance companies know that once everyone goes to single payer, they'll make a fortune with supplemental because the taxpayers aren't going to be paying much in the first place. Stosh

Sometimes a verbal reminder works great and lead to some stepping on toes moments. However, 99% of the time I wear the full uniform, but that's expected because I'm an adult. However, once when I was having problems with less than full uniforms and not being tucked in. I came out of my tent with my shirt mis-buttoned, a baseball cap, shirt untucked, etc. etc. I got all kinds of looks from the boys. No one said anything until it came time to go down for morning flags and the SPL came up to me and said, enough is enough, you've made your point. But I answered back, my class B t-shirt under my uniform was tucked in. He smiled, turned around and called for uniform inspection before we went down for flags. I don't think he ever had to do that again. Stosh

I like jpstodwftexas's idea for a den flag, it looks really nice and hopefully the boys really appreciate the work that went into it. I, on the other hand, offer up the suggestion, that you sew a sleeve on one end of a white pillowcase so it fits on a rod, hand out permanent marking pens of various colors and let the boys have at it. Might be a good idea for a meeting program for the evening. Like jpsodwftesas says, there aren't any rules. Might want to take the boys out on a hike in the woods to find the flag pole amongst the dead trees in the area. Stosh

No, you're not reading it wrong. As I looked over the ladder, it amazed me at the one item left off. Boy leadership. The ladder assumes the adults vs. youth leadership and youth leadership is only allowed in part at the highest levels. Nothing in there addresses the issue of maybe the NSP being taught, directed, coached by OLDER scouts! It had been tradition in my former unit that once a scout reached Eagle he was automatically given a JASM and no responsibilities. Basically the boy sits out his scouting career until he aged out. Instead of giving my earned Eagle scout his JASM, I handed him a TG patch. He looked bewildered for a moment, then smiled. He understood completely what that meant. His job now was to not simply be a adjunct, second-class ASM, he was to roll up his sleeves and continue the work of guiding the younger boys. So often we spend an enormous amount of time trying to get the older boys to lead/teach the younger ones, and for the most part effort is put into T-FC training. That is the job of the Instructors, not the TG or any other older boy. As far as the ladder is concerned, only the #1 run has any true youth leadership involved. Adult directive and Scout leadership simply is not leadership, it's only management as Kudu points out. If I'm told what to do, I do not take leadership, I only follow directions and how I MANAGE those responsibilities is not leadership. There comes a time when one has to take the leash off the boy and let him lead. #2 on the ladder explicitly says the leash is still there. What the "ladder" is really saying is the adults run it until everyone in the troop is at the top, and then maybe they can actually run the show on their own. As soon as I or anyone else proposes this, the knee-jerk reaction is that the boys will immediately line up a paintball/laser-tag activity and all hell breaks loose. A good leader knows the rules and if not, the boy is not ready to lead, he needs more coaching. So, as others have mentioned, it is not the responsibility of the scouts to recharter, for example. They can sit and watch someone else do it. Riiiiight! As mentioned, they're going to be totally bored watching someone else do it. Heck, so would I! Instead, here's the packet, you as Scribe need to do the recartering for the troop. Then the adult sits and watch them do it if they aren't too bored in the process. Read the material, follow directions, and turn in the paperwork. This is not rocket science and most boys at that level should be able to read. If not, you have more problems with this boy than simply teaching him leadership and responsibility. If I were to draw this ladder correctly to boy-led there would be only two rungs. Boys-lead on the first run and adults-lead (with some limited/leased leading by the boys) on the second. Matt, to answer your concerns about the boys being a butt, no new recruits, etc. a dialog is necessary to ask questions by the adults as to why the boys think that is a good idea. Listen carefully, they might have a few good points. Also, do they really have to serve 6 months of being a butt before being replaced or can the patrol decide that John Butt has to go and Peter Niceguy is replacing him as of right now. True leadership is given under the idea that if someone is giving responsibility to do something, they also have the authority to fulfill that responsibility without others interfering. If the boys feel John Butt is not fulfilling his responsibilities, they according the Scout Law, have a right to properly and in an orderly manner make things change. That's all part of leadership as well. One doesn't need a patch to lead. As far as no new Webelos this year, there has to be at least one scout that might want to be PL or needs a PL POR that would step up and take on the NSP. End of discussion. A good SM knows his boys and can very easily make opportunities for the boys in the form of gentle directives/suggestions that would/could inspire lesser leaders to step up to the next level. Yep, to a certain degree, through coaching, teaching, guiding, even the SM can lead at times by creating such opportunities/suggestions to the boys. Once the boy grabs onto the opportunity, the SM can settle back into his supportive role. Again it is a SUPPORTIVE role, not an abandonment role. No one should be kicking anyone out of the nest just because they think they can fly. Stosh

If the government can screw up the implementation of the program, you can only imagine what's going to happen when one gets sick. Stosh

Couch Potato Scouts will always throw a wrench into the smooth operations of a boy-led troop. They are there to take and never give. I show up, give me the program, the fun, the stuff in the brochure and don't expect me to lift a finger to help out, that's not why I'm in the program. Couple that with parents that support that and you have a recipe for disaster. The adventure is the means by which leadership character is built, but some aren't looking for that part. I'm here for the fun and washing dishes doesn't sound like fun. When the fun starts up again, call me, I'll be in my tent texting my friends, that's fun. Stosh

We could offer up a ton of idea from nothing to aircraft carriers and it isn't going to be of much value to someone who doesn't know what he wants in the first place. It's kinda reflective of the energy put into WoodBadge ceremonies. Some had elaborate ceremonies in a ton of different locations under differing circumstances. I got mine in the mail and that was just fine for me. It might be a good time for a SMC where the SM who knows the boy can maybe help him sort out what works for him. Stosh

Maybe this is why they also suggest one "air" out their bedroll during the day! The bugle is VERY effective way of getting the boys up. That means the SPL only has to tell one boy what time it is, too. I also suspect that every bugler has a deep down mean streak that he is more than happy to exercise every morning at reveille. Stosh

Where do they learn to be good boy-led Scoutmasters? It was always my thought that I was training up Eagle Scouts to one day become Scoutmasters! According to Kudu the patrol that can go out and have an activity without helicopter SM/ASM's are the goal of Scouting. As PL do I have the proper tour permits, camp permits, medical forms, financial concerns, and parental permission forms for all my boys? This leads to an interesting conundrum... If the boys have all their ducks in order INCLUDING permission from their parents to do so, can they go without adult leaders coming along to chaperone? Spin off a thread if you wish on that. Stosh

LOL, my boys tried that one. Didn't get much mileage once, however. For years they had camped in our local area and other than small rodents eating into packs, we didn't have much to consider in safety issues. If animals got into the food it had to be tossed, no questions asked. This worked really well until we spent one summer camp in Wyoming in grizzly country. I never thought those boys could keep a camp as clean as that. Fear from something other than camp staff and SM is a great motivator! Stosh

Like any project, activity, or event, there's plenty of paperwork that needs to be done. Where do the boys learn of this? For many the first time they might have to face it is all the paperwork of their Eagle Project. Heck, even the adults step in and do that for the boy. As a learning process, doing paperwork should always be a part of the process. The Scribe's notes, the Grubmaster's menu, the QM's inventory, etc. etc. etc. The ADHD boy I had as popcorn chairman handed out the sheets, nagged the boys, collected them up each week and turned them into the council office so the boys had a chance to win prizes. He filled out the order form, directed the committee treasurer to write out the check and sign for the popcorn, then went through the records getting the product out to each scout and kept track of the money coming back in. I was totally floored! I never expected it. My QM came to me and said we were running short of Dutch ovens at an event. I asked where they were all at. He knew how many were in the scout trailer and how many were on the shelves in the storeroom. He said he was one short and that if any adults wanted to do DO cooking they would be that many more short. Annually each POR holder was expected to provide the committee with a written State of the Troop report for their area. Most of the boys did a less than adequate job, but the QM wanted the troop to buy more equipment, he needed an itemized report of what we had and was needed or the committee treasurer wasn't going to write any checks. The Troop Chaplain came prepared every week with a brief devotional and prayer at each closing flag ceremony. Research, paperwork, followup, are all necessary parts of a well-planned activity. The more the boys do, the more they invest in its success. My committee treasurer did the best job of starting this process out when he told the QM that unless he had something in writing, he wouldn't know what to order, how much to order how much it cost and wouldn't have any proof when audited at the end of the year as to where the money went. It was up to the QM to figure out what that "something in writing" was. He did figure it out. One of my Grubmasters took the menu's of the best meals, broke them down into shopping lists and filed in a loose-leaf notebook. After a while all he would have to do is find the meal, pull the sheet and go to the store. Yeah, we have the boys go through the menu system for advancement process, but why are they re-inventing the wheel at every campout? The Grubmaster would always ask the boys to come up with their favorite meal for the requirement and then go through and pick the good ones and put them in his book. It is really amazing how much the boys can learn doing "paperwork". Never miss an opportunity for the boys to learn something new! Even if it's paperwork. Stosh

I really don't see us coming from two different approaches. My "hard number" issue is reflective in the method measurement described in my previous post. Sure, there will be a few (very few) things along the way that the adults may have to take the lead on, safety comes to mind right away. I have no problem with that. But of the rest of the "leadership responsibilities" have been taken over, retained by the adults and have left little or no youth leadership opportunities to grow in. Here's where the numbers game comes in. Do the boys "run the meetings" at the directive of the adults? Or do they do everything on their own with the adults on the sidelines watching the boys grow? If safety is stressed by the boys on everything the boys do in the troop, I'm thinking a troop could easily rank right up there in the 98-99% level of boy-led. What bugs me the most are the comments, "We have a boy-led program, and the adults only do this, that, and everything else." Or the comment, "We have a boy-led, but..." Why can't people simply say, "We have a boy-led program, and all of us adults just sit bag and brag about our boys, because when they look good, we look good!" As I also mentioned if a young boy is given the opportunity to line up a 1 hour service project, then maybe do his Grubmaster thingy for advancement, then do the patrol QM for a while and after figuring out how it goes in that patrol, he's a prime candidate for PL, top of the command chain as MattR points out. Why? Because he's popular? or because he is capable to teaching the boys in his patrol all those things he's learned along the way. Eventually he makes SPL, not because of popularity, but because he is well versed so as to coach the PL's in their duties. It's going to take a bit of adult coaching to get that whole process rolling and one might have to start at square one with his newest scouts. But eventually the adults can make the concerted effort to keep backing off and letting the boys take the lead, both in doing as well as teaching the next guy down the line. To me the the most important coaching position in the troop is the Troop Guide. Too often he is someone who works only with the NSP. Heck no! He helps the NSP get their feet on the ground, but with the SPL he helps the PL's and should be senior enough to even offer the important "second opinion" for the SPL as he coaches even him. Along with every POR should be the expectation that they train up the next guy otherwise they could get stuck in that POR forever! The troop QM should be training at least one person in every patrol what's going on with handling the gear requirements for that patrol for example. Eventually there should be 2-3 potential boys that have a pretty good idea of what a QM does and could take over so the Troop QM can move on to bigger and better things. Hard numbers? Sure. We are working on developing a culture of boy-led in our troop and we think we're about halfway there, or 3/4th the way there or we are so close we can taste it, 99%. As SM I have no expectations, no directives, no plans for success, all I have is the opportunity to create a learning environment where my boys have the opportunity to take on leadership at any and all occasions. Like I've said before, I was let go as SM because I expected too much leadership out of my boys. If one has to go, that's not a bad way to exit. Maybe a push the boy-led, patrol-method too much on the forum and maybe I pushed it too much in my troop, but if some is going to criticize or make fun of me, it might as well be for a good reason. Seriously, Barry, we really are on the same page. Stosh

MattR PL's in charge of their patrols? Is that Kosher? Oh, yeah, it's the patrol-method. Well done! Stosh

Hmmm, You are correct, but then I had assumed that the boy, himself, would be letting everyone know what HE wanted. My mistake. If a boy doesn't want an ECOH, so be it. It's his day, let him define what he wants. If it was me, I would want my buddies gathered on a small plot of land along the whitewater river I have canoed/kayaked for the past 20 years. I'd even go the extra mile and have hobo lunches instead of cold sandwiches and string cheese. I guess the only disappointment would be we couldn't get the aircraft carrier down such a small river. Stosh

Hmmm, If the SPL can't get the boys to flags on time, who's responsibility is it to get him up earlier? Adults? Don't think so. I had this happen to me. I got up as did my ASM and we went off to flags. When we got there, the camp director asked where the boys were. We told him and he was not impressed. I did, however, let him know we are a boy-led program and invited him to address the issue to the SPL whose responsibility it was to be there. HE DID! I'm sure the SPL expected me to be standing at his tent flap yelling at him. However, when the camp director got done with letting him know how disappointed they were to have the troop miss flags (in no uncertain terms), it sunk in. They were never absent or even tardy again. Talk to the person in charge! Serving PB&J to those that miss meals must be a universal camp rule. Nothing like standing in a mess hall that smelled like bacon and eggs and having to settle for PB&J. That particular SPL learned a valuable lesson that day. Unless it is an issue of real safety, there is no safety net provided by the adults. As I remember, he was one of my better SPL's after that. Stosh

I'll bite on that one. I too, don't think hard numbers or even percentages are the answer, but they give a ballpark estimate of kinda where we stand on any part of the program. Just take uniform because it has some objective measurements that are obvious. Are the boys all in full uniform according to the Inspection Sheet? Yes/No. Yes, means we have accomplished our goal, no means we have an opportunity to work on improvement. Who is going to take the lead on that? An adult or one of the boys? Who gets the opportunity for leadership? Outdoors - How many outdoor activities are happening? How many meetings/month, etc. Are 100% of the boys showing up for 100% of the activities? Yes/No. Yes, no problem, no, well there's a gap between what the troop is striving for and what is reality, and that gap is measurable. So, who's going to take the lead on the situation? Who is going to get the opportunity to work on it? Too often adults step in and start throwing out numbers like, the boys need to attend X% of the meetings and X% of the outings to advance. Now the adults are dictating their leadership over the boys. So as with any endeavor in the troop, who's taking the lead? Who's getting the opportunity to lead? Okay, you're the new PL, here's a list of all your responsibilities necessary to fulfill that job to get credit for POR. Okay, who made up the list? Adults? Boys? If they made up the list they would know what the job entails and because they make the rules, I have found they tend to adhere better to them. Maturity problems? How much experience does a boy have when he's given to opportunity to lead? Webelos II crossover, brand new in the troop. He has a requirement to do 1 hour's worth of service project. Does he wait until something comes along or is he given the opportunity to organize a service project for the troop? (We teach the boys to sit around and wait for someone else to lead!) Sure why not have him give it a try? So it goes south and crashes and burns. SMC time to sit down and work out what he's going to do the next time differently. By the time he gets a year or so under his belt he will have the basics ironed out. I find that with some adults the service project is #1 priority, but with boy-led maybe the #1 priority is teaching scouts how to set one up and organize it. So he's Grubmaster next, and he has to organize menus, gear and food. Then he moves on to PL and organizes patrol activites that require fees, gear, etc. He knows the Grubmaster responsibilities so he can have a patrol member take charge of that and assist him in doing it. If he has had QM responsibilities previously, he can help the QM too. If he does a few of these along the way each year, the Eagle Project will be a piece of cake. The method is the defining parameter in which we as adults coach opportunities for the boys. Anytime a SM asks the SPL how are we doing in the area of XXX? The SPL should have a ballpark % of we are 25%, 50% 75% or 100%. Depending on how the boy feels about answer that question will determine whether or not there is an opportunity to improve and who wants to take lead on that? Stosh

As part of any activity, the boys need to be responsible for finding out the rule limits in which they need to operate. No paintball/laser-tag per BSA regulations. It shouldn't even be a discussion between boys and adults. Same holds true for the RangeMaster requirements. The boys, even if they are running the program should not be exempt from doing their homework on it. Camp reservation? The Leader's Guide is available. It does not always say Adult Leader's Guide on the cover. If it does, it shows how boy-led the camp is focused on. The boys pick the activities and the adults do the facilitation leadership? Not really boy-led in my book, but everyone has their own opinion on that. As far as the paperwork is concerned isn't that the responsibility of the Scribe? We have a ton of threads about how the youth are not fulfilling their POR's and yet we suck the responsibility out of such POR's by adult interference? I had a 12 year-old boy take on Popcorn Chair and he did a fantastic job, and the only thing an adult did (at the boy's directive) signed for the popcorn and write the check from the troop's funds. Stosh

Kinda reminds me of the 6 year old that approaches his father and says, "I want to go to Disney World." Dad says, "Great, here's a $2,000 check, have a great time!" Are you providing a temporary activity to be enjoyed today or are there dynamics that can be capitalized upon so Dad can plan a trip so his boy can really go to Disney World? I'm sure the $2,000 check, and/or cash, isn't going to get any 6 year old to Disney World even if it's only 5 miles away. Stosh