Stosh

I had a middle school teacher one day give me a very profound bit of advice for dealing with kids of this age. From K-6, kids' brains are like sponges, they soak up lessons like candy. When they start 8th grade, they all lose their brains. When they start high school, they find them, with an attitude attached. So far I'm thinking he's pretty much spot on. Stosh

Sorry, I'm tired of your bait tactics. If you don't believe tolerance is a two-way street, just say so, and give examples.

Only the real poor people don't do tax returns. The people that this whole fiasco is supposed to be helping will indeed fall through the cracks. Stosh

If the US is truly a religiously tolerant country, why would any one have to compromise the "free expression" of their beliefs or have to alter them to accommodate someone else's complaint. The tolerance is a two-way street. Stosh

Crabby people are only looking for excuses to be crabby. Religion is just a cop-out excuse for being crabby. A true Christian knows, God doesn't need our protection from the world. He does just fine on his own. He'll be around long after the crabby people are gone.

I'm still listening. Stosh

If you think sitting in chairs boring, you are absolutely correct. I love the chaotic, experimental attitudes of a boy-led program. It's exciting, it's alive and for the boys, it's fun! The only one at a Boy Scout meeting that should be sitting down are the adults. That way they don't have to stand and hold their coffee. A chaotic Boy Scout meeting can be that way because the adults don't care, or because the boys do. Look closely, you can tell, but it'll take a second look beyond first impressions. Stosh

The Public Square used to be a place where everyone was allowed to gather for the exchange of dialog amongst free thinkers. I think this was at one time allowed in the US. Any ideas EXCEPT religion. I don't remember that little bit of bigotry being in there. I guess it would look pretty stupid to put up a "God is Dead" monument right next to a Cross. Stosh

So educate me. I'm all ears. Stosh

Kinda sounds like any other Christian group to me. Of course, every Catholic, Lutheran and Baptist follow the letter of the law of their denominations too. And I'm the accused of attaching other faith groups? Yeah right. I'm not Mormon, but I defend their right to be anything they want to be, if they claim witness to Christ, then they are Christian. I think there is a biblical verse that addresses this whole issue when the disciples of Jesus were complaining that others, not of their group, were witnessing about Him. Jesus' retort was not what they wanted to hear. AND, just for fun, show me where in Biblical Scriptures, polygamy is prohibited. It's just man-made rule, not a Biblical principle. Polygamy - having one too many wives. Monogamy - having one too many wives at times. Stosh

"Stosh, the reason this thread was hijhacked is because you made an outrageous claim about a field of inquiry for which you have demonstrated not only doubt but also profound ignorance. I and others have responded in attempts to correct your incorrect assertions. Thanks to EagleCat, but I fear your words are in vain." Why is The Theory of Evolution religious based? Well, for one thing, it was written by a theologian to start, not a scientist. Biologicial evolution theories were around long before Darwin stole them from other sources. He took credit for work done by others and claimed in his book without proper citations, their ideas to support his theological premise which was avowedly anti-Christian. His work was promoted by a a man named Leyell who also was not a scientist, but a lawyer. Most of the early proponents of Darwin's work were NOT scientists at all. So to claim a scientific agenda for the work is right from the start - a stretch at best. To cite examples of biological evidence is impossible because, for one thing, all the "missing links" described simply aren't there. One would think that the progression of evolution for the species could easily be archeologically documented. Except no evidence on the missing links has ever been found. Even the missing link between ape and man is no where to be found. The only "evidence" for such activity is a nothing more than speculation. "Looks like it should, so it probably did", is not proper science. So, in the interest of the debate, show me the evidence of evolution of the species? Be sure to show me the links, any links, that validate it. So far none have been found. Granted a lot of work has been done in microevolution, i.e. Merlyn's E. Coli experiment, but serious scientists credit mutations and adaptations not as long term evolutionary progression. At that rate, it would take, in evolutionary terms, billions of years, to show the true results if any. Mutations and hybrids don't necessarily show viable sustainabilities. Take the burro and horse hybrid, the mule. Mules have been around for years, it's a hybrid species which cannot reproduce itself. That in fact shows that much of the mutations/hybridization process does not result in an improved species. So Merlyn can spend all day long asking for evidence when he knows full well, there isn't any. I could ask for evidence of any missing link and he couldn't produce any either. "I ask you, Stosh, if you think evolution is merely another faith system (keep in mind that I don't agree with this characterization but you have admitted that it IS your view), then how is it that you think it is correct for you to attack another person's faith system? Would you welcome a similar attack on the fundamental beliefs of your faith? " As far as this issue is concerned, The Theory of Evolution was a treatise of anti-Christian ideals. I didn't attack anyone's faith system, I am talking about the issue of evolution, and how it has been used the past 150 years in world culture as movement against Christian teachings. I have no problem with people being Pantheistic (worship of nature) as a basis for their beliefs. But when their attacks encroach on mine, I have a right to defend them. If one wants to place some kind of blame on someone, let's go back to the source and start understanding why it came about. Charles Darwin was an anti-Christian theologian that put out a treatise to discredit the Church of his day. From that starting point, is where I start the discussion and yet I'm considered attacking someone's faith? I don't believe that is a correct conclusion and would find it difficult to have my mind changed. I, too, have my beliefs and Merlyn and anyone else can have at it to attack it, but one will quickly find, they have no more evidence against catastrophism (creation all at one time), than they have for evolution. Neither can be proven scientifically because they are both faith based systems. And the German philosopher Neitsche said "God is dead". at least he was sure that at one point he must have been very much alive! Even really "smart" people can say some pretty stupid things. Now if anyone wishes to move the discussion on to macroevolution, we could have a hay day with debate on that topic. The creation stories are nothing more than a straw argument to keep the focus off the real reason behind evolutionary thought and ideals. Stosh

I gave you the answer. Just because you didn't like it doesn't mean it wasn't an answer. Stosh

I was answering KDD's request. Oh, and by the way, the Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints is not Christian? What say ye, LDS scouters? The US Constitution says in: Amendment I Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Keep it in mind that the people at Wounded Knee were prisoners of war, confined to a concentration camp (reservation) and were supposed to be under government protection. Instead, because of their religion, they were killed. The fact remained, the incident occurred on US Territory and inflicted by US troops under command of the US government. It really doesn't make a bit of difference what religion they were, it was supposed to be protected. I'm sure the intent of the troops was to insure there would be no one left to "...petition the Government for a redress of grievances." in this case. Stosh

"In God's presence, there would be no sickness, disease, or old age. Wilson was given the Ghost Dance and commanded to take it back to his people. He preached that if the five-day dance was performed in the proper intervals, the performers would secure their happiness and hasten the reunion of the living and deceased. Wilson said that God gave him powers over the weather and that he would be the deputy in charge of affairs in the western United States, leaving current President Harrison as God's deputy in the East. Jack claims that he was then told to return home and preach God's message." "Nonetheless, thousands of additional U.S. Army troops were deployed to the reservation. On December 15, 1890, Sitting Bull was arrested for failing to stop his people from practicing the Ghost Dance.[12] During the incident, one of Sitting Bull's men, Catch the Bear, fired at Lieutenant "Bull Head," striking his right side. He instantly wheeled and shot Sitting Bull, hitting him in the left side, between the tenth and eleventh ribs;[13] this exchange resulted in deaths on both sides, including that of Sitting Bull." "Twenty U.S. soldiers received Medals of Honor for their actions" (Wounded Knee) "When another movement for Utah's admission into the union was mounted in 1876 its sponsors essentially disregarded recent warnings from visiting federal executive and legislative leaders that statehood was not possible so long as plural marriage continued to be condoned and practiced in Utah." "In the final struggles in Congress, it was the Democrats in the Senate Committee on Territories who appeared hesitant to grant the long-sought goal. Recent Utah territorial elections had gone against them, and with the national legislature so closely balanced, they were reluctant to grant two new Senate seats to the rival party. In the final compromise allowing the Utah enabling act, passed in July 1894, it was stipulated that Utah not be admitted until after the current congressional term. Thus statehood did not arrive until 4 January 1896, after a half-century of struggle." Okay, two examples of where the US government did NOT stay neutral as has been claimed. Stosh

I'm sure you're tired of trying to discredit someone from a sub-species from yours. We can leave it at that. Stosh

Separation of Church and State which means the US is non-religious, i.e. according to atheistic principles, godless. No, it means the government is neutral on religion. -- Oh, how I wish that were true. That's what it might mean to you, but like everyone else, they have a different perspective they are coming from. As one coming from the atheist point of view, of course you can't see it, your ox isn't getting gored. examples? Attach anything that smacks of religion, Christian, Judean, Hindu, or Buddhist. Islam is off limits right now because they don't want to be seen anti-Muslim in the light of today's political environment. Removal of religious pictures, posters, memorials from schools, government buildings and public property. Mormons told they couldn't join the United States as the state of Utah unless they first remove their religious practice of polygamy. Christian organizations that were dictated they had to provide contraceptives to their employees. School organization deprived of membership like other groups. Christian groups are required to allow non-Christians into their group including holding office in the group. Christian organizations that restrict employment to members only is illegal. Certain Christian activities for their members prohibited on public property. Schools couldn't perform Christian music at performances. Movement to drop "God" from the pledge and currency. Movement in the news today to drop "God" from the Air Force Oath. Government agencies identifying Christian groups as terrorists. Military chaplains dictated what they can and cannot do. Oh, my, the list goes on and on and on and on and on. The goal? The government is supposed to be perceived as neutral, but with all the above activity it is obvious it goes way beyond that to establishing requirements against religious tenets right down the line. If this is not obvious to anyone, they haven't been very observant. Whereas Jews and Christians take the brunt of all this, other religions get a pass and or a nod and wink. I know it's all political, but eventually whatever loyalty Christians had towards the government, it's kinda going away. So, if one take God out of everything associated with religion in government, what have you established? A god-less nation. The only people who believe in a god-less nation are those who claim to be atheists. You don't even know what an example is. You have to relate an actual event. The above is just handwaving, you've cited no actual events. And what make one think the world of Islam thinks we are the Great Satan? Oh, yeah, they see us as godless as well. So what? You may change your tune when the bomb goes off and gunfire starts at your local mall. Other religions differ from Christianity. Christianity allows for a wide range of tolerance, other religions don't necessarily. In a political environment you can get away with a lot against Christianity, but I can't speak for others.

My question would be, why don't your ancestors/relatives want you living in Oklahoma?

Good, I got an easy question... I don't think anyone else on this forum agrees with your peculiar view of evolution, much less actual scientists. Most true scientists have moved on to more important studies than chasing after political agendas. Proportionately speaking, I don't see much coming out of the scientific community on this subject anymore. A few pseudo-scientists carry on the banner, but for the most part are more politically motivated than scientific. By the way, do you have a specific example of how the US is an atheist country, as you claim? -- Separation of Church and State which means the US is non-religious, i.e. according to atheistic principles, godless. -- examples? Attach anything that smacks of religion, Christian, Judean, Hindu, or Buddhist. Islam is off limits right now because they don't want to be seen anti-Muslim in the light of today's political environment. -- And what make one think the world of Islam thinks we are the Great Satan? Oh, yeah, they see us as godless as well. Stosh

I"m sure your myopia doesn't allow you to see that evolution is a lot more than what you call "science". That's simply the cloak Darwin used to cover up his attack on Christianity. It unfortunate that your situation/beliefs don't allow a full dialog and debate on the issue. Ya, gotta get over the personal attacks, they really don't anything for me and are getting rather telling on your part. Stosh

What is "the Darwinian attack on Christianity"? Are you talking about the teaching of the theory of evolution here? Sorry, Horizon, I missed your one line comment. Darwinianism is a modern interpretation of Pantheism, the worship of nature. Darwin was anti-Christian, used pseudo-scientific lingo to repackage it into his attack on Christianity. He was in fact an educated theologian, not a scientist. Evolution was a medium by which many further interpretations have arisen that are used for a various reasons, mostly to attack Christianity, it's main goal. Others have used it for even more destructive agendas. Maybe Merlyn can fill us in on Neo-Darwinianism some time, a 200 year evolution of the Darwinian attack. Stosh

The government can say all it wants to about separation of church and state. Particularly the supreme court. -- as reinterpreted many times over the years. The US Constitution is founded on Christian principles, "Endowed by our Creator...." That's not in the US constitution. -- My bad, Declaration of Independence, maybe we ought to drag out a copy of that, dust it off, and get it to Washington as a warning. We've come full circle and are right back where we started. There's a lot in that document that Washington wouldn't want to hear from its citizenry. King George wasn't impressed, I'm sure Obama wouldn't be either. As a Christian country, it endorses an open tolerance to all faiths We aren't a Christian country. -- You are correct, we have become atheist, and they don't tolerate anything that doesn't go along with their anti-theology. All this means is the federal government cannot proselytize one religion over another and is open to all. It means a lot more than that. -- without further elaboration, I have no idea what you are talking about. However, the Darwinian attack on Christianity continues and in spite of it being illegal, the US government has endorsed atheism as it's national religion. What color is the sky in your world? -- Blue, what's it in yours? Stosh

Stosh - would you mind sharing your education background (e.g., public, secular private, religious, homeschooling) Public school through college (Computer Science, Business Admin, & Psychology). 4 years post graduate study in theology, Catholic/Presbyterian/Lutheran consortium. Semi-professional historian. and religious background (e.g., Baptist, Pentacostal)? Baptized: Evangelical Reformed Grew up: Methodist Confirmed: Lutheran Current: No affiliation, attend worship regularly, but not necessarily at anyone church. Currently involved for various reasons in 3 different congregations in the community. Oops, because of my new troop formation I'm involved with, I'm involved with 4 congregations. I think it would help us understand where you are coming from. One tends to assume that we all have similar backgrounds, attended similar churches and learned in the traditional education system. I may be completely wrong but I'm assuming that you were taught in a non-mainstream education system. Nope, except for theological study, all in the Public Schools! been there done that, seen a lot of different issues from a wide variety of different views, all of it Christian. My background in religion and history is where I am coming from in this discussion. In my basement I have at least 30' of floor to ceiling bookshelves of just about everything interesting. Stosh

The government can say all it wants to about separation of church and state. The US Constitution is founded on Christian principles, "Endowed by our Creator...." As a Christian country, it endorses an open tolerance to all faiths. All this means is the federal government cannot proselytize one religion over another and is open to all. However, the US Constitution says nothing about individual states establishing an endorsement. That went by the wayside many years ago with the continual reinterpretation of the original doctrine. However, the Darwinian attack on Christianity continues and in spite of it being illegal, the US government has endorsed atheism as it's national religion. Unless it is endorsed by atheism, it is vehemently attacked by the small vocal minority backed by the government. Of course, due to the nature of Christians, it has become vogue to tolerate its own decline. This puts a smile on the faces of atheists all over the country, no matter how small a minority they may be. Not many would admit the US has become a godless nation, but it doesn't need to admit the reality of what's happening. Like other atheistic countries that have come and gone over the decades, eventually the US will one day wake up that fact and all hell will break loose, just like it did in all those other countries. You want evidence of that? There's plenty to be had. Stosh

Kinda amazing how 2.4% of the population can and does have such an impact on the other 97.6% of those that do have some relevant spirituality. It shows how powerful their impact can disrupt the vast majority of people and their beliefs. Beware America, the wolf is at the door. By the way, the 82% who "feel a connection to nature" are by definition Pantheists. That skews the results because we don't know how many "atheists" are really Pantheists. Stosh

Good thing Timbuktu isn't on the map or a lot of us would be in deep dodo. Stosh