Stosh

Everyone has their own cross to bear. I have 2 dogs and 3 cats. Cat #1 was my daughter's who developed an alergy to it. Cat #2 was my son's who didn't want it anymore. Cat #3 is my step-daughter's who abandoned it when she went off to college. Dog #1 is my wife's. Got to cut her a bit of slack, I knew she had it when I married her. Dog #2 is my daughter's gift that didn't work out for her. So, there's my family now and I enjoy every moment of them all. Even at 5:30 am when it's breakfast time! So how do I deal with it? 2 dogs in kennels at night, one cat likes outside overnight, other cat sleeps at foot of bed and the last one on the pillows. I did, however, train the cats to sleep on the wife's side of the bed. Stosh

Freedom means free from some Big Brother nanny state that feels it is their job to be your parent throughout your life because you are too stupid or incapable to doing it yourself. Sorry, MYOB should be the mantra of every good government when it comes to preserving the freedom of it's citizens. There's no justification that says a government can take away a citizens free rights without due process and spying is not due process in anyone's book. Stosh

From the first posting, it appears that this activity is a Webelos trip to visit a Troop, NOT a Dad and Lad outing. If the Pack or Den wishes to set up a Dad and Lad, fine. But when it's a visit to the troop to check out Boy Scout activities, the dads are not part of the planned activities. The Boy Scouts take care of the Webelos boys and the SM and other adults may wish to converse with the parents, but it's not a joint activity. If this process was the normal routine, then one can expect helicopter parents to think this is normal that they hang around constantly in all boy activities. That's a floodgate I really don't want to open up. Stosh

Why? One has to be kinda crazy to take on any Scouting program in the first place. Stosh

I always wear my uniform kayaking. If I spill, no big deal, it dries. A good rinse and evaporation cooling on a hot day is not that bad of an idea either. Why would one want to wear a t-shirt under the uniform on a hot day? On a hot day, I seldom walk past a water source without soaking down my necker! If it's really hot, the whole uniform shirt goes in. In Florida there's plenty of water for any hike. With the wool uniforms of Civil War reenacting, we have all learned that when the battlefield "ice angels" come around, everyone fills their cups with ice water, but they also fill their pockets and hat with ice cubes, too! I've been out in heat indexes of +115 in a wool uniform and didn't have too much trouble handling it. A cotton field shirt with the loose fit and opening in front is far more comfortable than a clingy t-shirt fully enclosed made of the same material. Stosh

Oh, you mean that 2 months of Dog Care just isn't for the MB? And maybe if that dog were to live for 10-12 years one would have to actually know what they were doing with the MB requirements? Isn't that going beyond the requirements of the MB? Please note the above comment is dripping with sarcasm. It think it is an excellent opportunity to realize the MB's are a long term commitment beyond the 2 months of the MB requirement. I hope your son works his butt off and gets his dog. It'll be a sad day when he has to go off to college and when he looks back to wave goodbye, there's you, the Mrs. and his dog. Stosh

"Take Care of Your Boys!" is not a rule in my troop. It's the culture in which we operate. It is also the only guideline/training for officers in the Troop. The PL who doesn't take care of his patrol, just gave an opening for the APL to step up and handle things. When it becomes obvious to the boys, they can at any time, re-select the boy who does the best job of taking care of the patrol. Even a member of a patrol who has a slacker PL and APL is encouraged to step up and take care of business. I teach my boys to watch and wait for opportunities to open up for leadership. The competition is fierce at times. But... with everyone chomping at the bit for their opportunity, it keeps the PL on his toes, too. Don't leave an opening for the next guy! The esprit-de-corp runs really high in patrols that understand that dynamic. Who's really going to complain about a patrol that is scrambling to be the best at taking care of each other. Stosh

Keep it in the back of your mind, there is a difference between management and leadership. A good manager will get the job/task done. A good leader will get the job/task done, but everyone involved will find valid value in being involved in the process. A good manager will say, "The 5 gallon water bucket needs filling. According to the roster, John is supposed to be doing it. John, take care of it!" A good leader will say, "The water bucket is empty. Hey, John, you're on the roster, how about you and I go and knock it out." Either way the job will get done, but John is going to remember how he felt with the approach taken by the leader, and when it is his time to lead will help and support rather than just delegate as a manager would have done. I had one boy complain once that I was picking on him when all the tough jobs came around. He called me on it. I told him, it's a crappy job, and I always put my best scout on it because I know it will get done correctly. From that point on, he always smiled and got right on it when I asked him to do something. I often wonder if he would have been disappointed if I didn't ask him. Surprisingly he eventually was one of the first to volunteer for the crap jobs before I even asked. I think he knew he was my best scout. Good leaders always seem to "show up". Attendance was never a problem. I never asked my boys why they missed an activity. I simply assumed it was for a good reason. If they told me they weren't going to make it to an activity, I never questioned why, but I never heard later on of a boy missing because he just didn't want to go. Family, Church, job and school always took a higher priority than Scouting. And yet, attendance was never a problem. Stosh

If a troop only has 10 scouts, then the POR of SPL and ASPL are totally useless and the position is "in name only". A troop that size is run by a solid PL and APL. I never put POR patches on my scout's uniforms when I was SM. They either functioned at that position, or they didn't get credit for the rank advancement. If none of the "elected" POR's show up at an event, then the real leader steps up and makes it work. He doesn't have to be elected to lead. I had boys go into their rank BOR's and when asked about their 6 month POR requirement, had a litany of work they had done as PL, SPL, TG, Instructor, Scribe, etc. We were a small troop (25 boys) and as they say, the cream rose to the top, just like the good leaders will also. Any boy who could document 6 months worth of POR work/functionality, got credit for the rank and it didn't need to be all in one POR. About 80% of the boys were actively developing real leadership styles and skills, the other 20% weren't interested in it and tended to be obvious sluggards. It was the parents of these boys that complained and had me removed because I expected too much leadership from the boys. It sounds like you can really see the problem with the lack of leadership. So my advice would be, step up and fill in the gaps! You don't need a patch to be a leader. The coach makes no plays on the sport field. The conductor makes no sound at the concert, and the drivers' ed teacher sits in the passenger seat. If you step up and fill in the gaps in leadership, eventually they will start following you for real. On your trip, you had 5 scouts and your SPL "acted" as a PL. Don't act like one, BE one. In my book going from SPL to PL is a step UP in leadership. It's where the real leadership happens. Almost forgot, you asked what the rules/requirements should be: Well, most rules along these lines are pretty bogus anyway. So, don't worry about the rules, worry about the gaps in leadership instead and step in and take care of the boys. And remember the more the "elected leadership" drops the ball, the more opportunity you have to step up and demonstrate real caring leadership. Work with the boys to make it happen, that's what leadership is all about. Stosh

For security reasons, I can see spying on foreign concerns or possible threats. But once they start spying on their own people, they move the debate into the Godwin Law arena. No government should be so paranoid of it's own citizens it feels it needs to spy on them. The only reason for such action would be if they were not serving the people they are supposed to be taking care of and instead taken on a more tyrannical posture of running the government. It's happened before, it'll happen again. Either the government serves the people, or they'll replace it with one that will. Stosh

For the past 30 years most of my camping has been around scouting and for 15 years, Civil War reenacting. Now that I have more free time, my wife and I have done some kayak camping, and static camping for hiking at major parks. What surprised me was when it came to packing I didn't have any civilian camp clothes! It was either CW or BSA uniforms. I had to dig out some old coveralls from when I was running with the EMT's just to have something to wear that wasn't still nice in my closet. I've had to finally designate some clothes now to the camping category at the Mrs.'s insistence. I seriously felt weird without my uniforms. Stosh

If the patrol leaders are doing their job, why do you even have an ASPL? That has to be the most useless job in the troop. The bugler has more responsibility. On an outing, the SPL is the second most useless person. If the patrols are 300' apart, how does the SPL keep track of everything? If the troop is looking to the SPL and ASPL for leadership on the campouts, they are barking up the wrong tree. The PL's should be running the show in their patrols. What are the PL's in your troop doing when the SPL and ASPL are running the show? Nothing? Taking orders from the SPL and ASPL? That's gotta be confusing for everyone. Basically if the ASPL is attending regularly but has trouble on the weekend with job and school, I don't see this as any real problem. Same for the SPL, especially in a small troop. Have a PL pull that stunt, then there's reason for the fur to fly. For me the highest ranking POR in my troops were the PL's. Everyone else down to the CC SUPPORTED the PL's in their jobs. That's where the real leadership needs to be. Stosh

That's what the stones say! Stosh

My new troop, one boy, stated that the new troop will be full-uniform and his first purchase was a pair of used scout pants I have in my resource box at home. When a pack asked to come for their Webelos visit, one of the stipulations HE put on the event was that it was expected all the Webelos boys be in full uniform when they come visit. In my former troop full uniform was expected, everyone complied, and all griping ended the week of our first summer camp and the staff fawned all over them for being in full uniform for the whole week (except at the waterfront.) I think the biggest problem with uniforming is not as much as the boys' preferences, but the adults'. At the Centennial Jamboree, I wore a 1910 Scout uniform, my scout that was with me wore a 1960's uniform. People took pictures which was fine, but any scout that wanted to have their picture taken with us had to be in full uniform so they had a time-line of uniforms for their albums. That wasn't my rule, that was what my scout told them. Those that had full uniforms were few and far between, but got nice pictures. One boy was turned down earlier in the week, but caught up to us later on for a picture. He said he had worn his full uniform for 2 days looking for us. We took him down to the tent where they were taking pictures with backgrounds, picked out the old Boy's Life background and paid for his picture. He was on cloud 9! It's how you approach the subject of uniform. Half the battle is one's own attitude. Stosh

Because the parents are more interested in getting Eagle for their dear angelic child than they are in building his character. I've seen this scenario played out far too many times. Parents who are upset their kid got caught than they are of the infraction he committed. If the SM hadn't made such a big stink out of it and blocked his Eagle, he'd have his Eagle pin by now. And everyone else was doing it too, but the SM was just making an example out of my boys. I could go on for pages on the excuses I have heard over the years. Stosh

In my local cemetery are veterans from every war fought by the US except the Revolutionary war. War of 1812, Florida Indian Wars, Mexican War, Civil War both federal and confederate, post-CW Indian Wars, Span Am, WW I, WW II, Korea, Vietnam and recent wars. We even have one that is a veteran of the Texan War of Independence. We have a CW general that was also the state governor and founder of General Mills, the commanding officer aboard the Maine when it went down is also buried there. The wife of a war correspondent that perished at Custer's Last Stand is buried there as well. One of the men buried there was sitting in the audience when Lincoln was killed and watched Booth jump to the stage and limp off. Ronald McDonald is buried there as well as John Lennon. What kid wouldn't want to learn about some of their stories. What is even more interesting is how involved these people were in making the community what it is today. They were involved with the riverboat industry, the lumber industry, farming, city development, hospitals, colleges, business endeavors, etc. etc. Their legacy of who we are is right there in that cemetery. I had one boy inspect military graves in the cemetery, take pictures of the damaged ones, and then submit to the VA for replacements. 16 stones were replaced. It was a great Eagle Project that got nice picture and press in the local AND statewide newspaper. Stosh

I guess I'm of the same opinion as others. Parents far away is not a bad thing. If they wish to come and check on how things are going and then disappear, fine. The alternative is having them hanging around getting in the way and hovering over their kid. I don't know if it's appropriate, but run a rope around the camp and it's activities and the parents can observe from the outside works for me. If that's a problem, run a rope around an area designated for observation and make the adults stay in there. Stosh

How about the Veteran's Memorial Park, the military section of the cemetery the grave of a prominent citizen why is the school named after someone why is a park named after someone why is a street named after someone where were the first buildings in your town, and what's there now. visit the oldest business in town who lived in the nice big houses in town and why were they important what did the cars look like the first year the car dealership was in business why do houses today look differently than those that are 100 years old. what about repurposed buildings in town. Why is it called the Depot Pizza Joint? or the Freighthouse Restaurant? tour an antique shop and find something you don't know what it is and have someone explain it. where were the city limits100 years ago? where was the first school, church, built in town who was the first mayor of your town, where did he live, what did he do for a living who started the first hospital in town There are those involved with your local historical society/museum/library that would love to do something for the kids. Stosh

It's kinda like doing 5 over the speed limit. It's okay as long as you don't get caught. The morality of our nation is not do what is right. Do what you think you can get away with. Character used to be measured by what a person did when no one else was watching. I don't think that's a hallmark in today's society. Just listen carefully at a lot of these comments on the thread. Here's the rules, but what about if we do this? Granted, some of the "rules" aren't written very well, but look at the problems mentioned on the forum, how many are pushing the envelop and how many are merely interpretations. To me a POR is doing the work for 6 months. Others feel 75% of work is okay, but what about 50%, or 25% of the work. Kinda cheats those that put in 100% and do the job. Then there are those who even go so far as to say that simply wearing the badge is sufficient. Ever wonder why they are called Paper Eagles? I don't. I often wonder if the only lesson some scouts and their parents learn is how to pencil whip. Stosh

100% of the problem lies with the parents. If they promoted honesty in the first place, this would be a moot issue. Adding parents to the mix will only reinforce the problem, not solve it. Best case scenario would be allowing the boy to be punished because he got caught, not because what he did had any moral implications. Stosh

Economics 101 is based solely on supply and demand. Nobody's going to pay for something that costs way too much. They'll shop around. The price gougers will go out of business. With that being said, add into the mix sufficient governmental interfering and all the Laws of Supply and Demand go out the window. If a company can't make a product cheap enough to sell, they go out of business and the citizens end up with nothing. No big business, no market, no product, and no one to blame except the governmental interference. Government hoarding of product to influence markets has been going on in a number of areas, agriculture, energy, just to name a couple. The US Constitution does not allow governmental interference in private industries. Well, that isn't the case and the artificial economics that have arisen doesn't "protect" the public, it in fact harms it. Stosh

It's always popular to demonize big businesses. Some schmuck is making way too much money. Well, so are all the thousands of people working in the jobs these schmucks are providing. So we knock off the millionaire on the top of the heap, but what about the damage done to the thousands of workers that were also making pretty good money, too. They don't count because Big Business is the Devil Incarnate! So the coal miner, the oil rig operator, the pharmaceutical tech are all standing in soup lines because they have been tagged minions of Satan. Well, I must be the spawn of Evil, because I am ecstatic that I work for a multi-billion dollar, international company that provides a good wage and health benefits. The guy at the top makes more money in 5 minutes than I do all year. So what. I'm not on the dole, I don't use food stamps, I don't need ObamaCare, and I'm free. What more could one ask for? I support big business, because I want others to have a chance at what I have, too. It's what the American Dream is all about. Stosh

Deep down I get the feeling that the emphasis on "getting Eagle" puts a lot of such temptation in front of the boys. Instead of enjoying and learning something with MB's, it seems (no evidence) that a lot of pencil whipping is going on. Okay, short cuts are taken and if one "gets away with it," no harm no foul seems to be a prevailing thought amongst scouts and their goal oriented parents. I do Bugling MB, have for years. The number of boys that start is kinda surprising, but the number of boys that don't bother to come back is even more surprising. Basically, the MB consists of: These are the bugle calls, learn them. Okay, expecting the boys to actually learn them and practice them so they can be used, is an overwhelming feat. I suggest it should take maybe 2-3 weeks of 1/2 hr a day practice to be somewhat proficient. And then, they never come back. It's kinda hard to cheat on this MB. Either you know it or you don't. It's the nature of the beast. Boys that have finished the MB honestly have provided a good service to their troops, but one still doesn't hear many bugle calls nor see the POR on many shirts. I'm sure there are other examples of MB's requiring some kind of measurable proficiency, but I don't teach them so others would have to comment. Stosh

Boys: They are bouncing off the walls, running around chasing things, getting into trouble. Dogs are little men in fur coats. Girls: They are finicky, they lay around all day, and if you try to talk to them, they sit there and just give you "the Look". Cats are little women in fur coats. And please, do not forward these comments to my wife, she'll pounce on me and claw my eyes out. Stosh

Saying no is a vote. The new eagle that can't tie a square knot or recite the 12 points of the Scout Law shouldn't even be at a EBOR in the first place. The assurance he is qualified is determined long before he gets to the board. I don't participate in pencil whipping, and I have a right to say so with my no vote. Saying no in the first place is a lot more appropriate than getting up and leaving in the middle of the Board's deliberations.