Stosh

So everyone has something to bitch about. It's always been that way, it is now, and will be for a long time coming. There's nothing new under the sun. "But if I ran the zoo," / Said young Gerald McGrew, "I'd make a few changes. / That's just what I'd do…" (2.1-4) The lions and tigers and that kind of stuff / They have up here now are not quite good enough. / You see things like these in just any old zoo. (3.1-3) - Dr. Seuss Everyone out there has their own opinion on how to make things better, but in reality nothing really gets better. Wouldn't it make sense that if things were getting better everyone would quit whining. Not seeing much improvement, but the whining is getting louder.

He's on the forum just to make waves.... You can't get a straight answer out of him, but he surely wants one from you. It's just his game.

I'm a child of the Cold War, spying has been going on my whole life, it's nothing new. Remember, outside the US, they don't have to buy into the mainstream media politics. They just keep playing hardball and Obama got caught with his hand, arm and maybe his head in the cookie jar. He can cover up his scandals inside the US by ignoring them, but outside is a whole different story. Stosh

True, unless they are educated about boy led when they visit. To some degree, when prospective parents come to a troop meeting, the SM and ASMs have to sell them on the troop. They need to explain why boys are running the meeting, etc. They need to be taught the concept that Boy Scouts is preparing the boys to be independent, and part of that is the goal that the only roles for adults is to 1) drive the boys, 2) do things they can't (i.e. make reservations for campsites, etc.) and 3) to drive the boys to the hospital if needed. I know as WDL, I tried to explain some of the above to my future crossovers. Lost a lot of boys due to that. however, the ones that stayed were pretty hardcore, and still are. Boy-led isn't for everyone. Those that what program, go for adult-led, those that want the character development, independence, opportunities for their boys then check out boy-led. The activity is the destination, leadership development is the journey. Yes there are the boys who just want to show up and parents who support them. For them, they need to find an adult-led program, and then they can fight with the adults every time they suggest that little Johnny help out or even carry his fair share. Stosh

No different than religious organizations losing non-profit status. So I guess everyone, including atheists, whine when they lose their special privileges. Looks like hurt feelings doesn't it. Stosh

So then let's have some examples where atheists aren't treated equally. Stosh

You are correct on boy-led/adult-led variances. As a matter of fact ALL troops fit somewhere on a sliding scale between the two extremes. There is no truly boy-led programs, nor are there purely adult-led programs. It is best to find one where you feel comfortable with for your boy. Does the program help him grow? Does it offer him challenging opportunities? How much adult involvement is too much and how much is not enough. If you have multiple options, that's great, then you can pick either the lesser of two evils or the better of two opportunities. Some locations don't have that option. In that case, nothing says you can't pitch in and work on what you think is best for the troop just like any other adult already there. As you can see in my post above, not everything is going to be perfect for any situation. Maybe all 12 Webelos boys will think this new troop is way to immature in it's history, but maybe others will see it as a golden opportunity to have a troop that they can create from scratch. Right now I'm heavy duty into hands on by the adults (me and parents), but the boy also has been handed an opportunity that a lot of 15 year-olds never get, too. There are 3 packs that may visit. Next pack might get a better deal, and if all fails, next year maybe those boys will see something they want in this kind of a program. How many troops would trust a newly crossed over first year scout to handle the program for visiting Webelos? I don't have any other option, but I'm still feeling really good about what's going to happen next week. Maybe the Webelos parents won't, but they have other options. Good luck with your search. Stosh

Like anything else in scouting, we expect our scouts to overcome some pretty big hurdles to learn and grow. Well, it applies to the adults as well. It may be a stretch for some people, but maybe it's time to step up to the plate and work at it, just like we expect our scouts to do. I have had ADD, ADHD, Aspergers, autism, mentally challenged, and a whole ton of clinically diagnosed behavior problem youth in my troops over the years. I'm not out looking for a cure for any of these boys, but they deserve the same consideration to work on the scouting experience as the "normal" (if you could ever call any of them normal) boys. I had one mentally challenged scout (age 34) who simply liked to put on a uniform, get out of the institution and hang out with the boys. BSA said it was okay and he always had a home in my troop. BTW, it took him a long time, but the last time I visited with him he was a Life scout working on his Eagle. Stosh

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with boy-led on the one hand and impressed with adult-led on the other. But store it away in the back of your mind, it's a double-bit axe. Cuts both ways. On the one hand, your boy will have a great time in scouting going with an adult-led program. All the good stuff will right there ready to go and very little hitches along the way. On the other hand, your boy will be expected to step up to the plate and deliver a program that he's way in over his head to handle. So what you need to do is decide along with your son, which is more important, the journey or the destination? So what I have is one boy in a newly forming troop that was a webelos cross over last April. Last night he learned how to make rope and whip the ends. He and I made the first rope, and then he taught his mom and dad how to do it. Why? Because next week we have 12 Webelos scouts coming along with their parents to visit the troop. My lone scout at age 11 is going to handle the evening. I am his assistant. Do I see crash and burn coming down the pike? Yep! But so do his mom and dad, but my boy is totally committed to the journey. So will he get help? Yep, from me who taught him and two more (mom and dad) who he taught. He showed up for last night's meeting with his new belt and scout socks he got off of Ebay last week. Made a special point to let me know he now has the full uniform. He said he was really happy the stuff from Ebay came in on time so he'd be in full uniform for when the Webelos boys show up. Do I have an exceptional boy here? No, because both mom and dad told me separately in private how much they have seen him "come out of his shell" in just the past few months. For me, it's the journey! Stosh

I can totally understand your burned out feelings. But it would be good to let the Pack leadership know how it happened and why you have pulled back from Pack level support. In the long run, you just might help enough people understand and make some changes so that others won't follow your lead and the Pack collapse due to lack of adult leadership. I know a lot of organizations that have this burn out problem and they spend a ton of time recruiting new people in to replace the burned out people and they never really fix the problem! The burn out people just walk away leaving a hole for the recruitment chairman fills and this destructive cycle continues on once more. Don't cover symptoms, go for the cure. Stosh

For those who want a freebie, one could always plan a day hike and people bring their own food. My very first boy scout activity was one such event. Hike five miles out of town, make a fire, cook your own food, hike back. It was kinda expensive for me because my mom allowed me to have a small steak instead of hamburger patty to cook. Sometimes overplanning is not really a good idea. Let the boys learn something new, like cooking a meal for themselves. Not everything has to be a troop extravaganza. For those scouts not needing fire-building or cooking for advancement could always just bring a sandwich and cookie from home. Urban setting? Sure, why not hike to a city park and back. Might see something different along the way that one didn't notice flying by at 25 mph in the car playing video games. Stosh

blw2 - been there done that, every thing you point out is true except for the 80/20. I have experienced major shifts in those numbers in every organization I have worked this system in. I saw one organization do this and the "president" of the group spent a few hours once a month sitting down and doing a phone call to each activity chair asking how things were going and if there was anything she needed to be doing to help with the process. 100% of the time the chairperson "had everything under control". At the last minute if something hiccupped, the president was there to help plug the gaps. That occurred 2-3 times a year and it was not a big deal with any of them. However, it wasn't a miraculous fix the first year out of the starting blocks. But after that the numbers shifted to about 50/50 by the second and even better the third year. It might not be ideal but it made a major impact on the 20% that had to carry the load previously. Stosh

Gee, Basement, I hope you realize I never made the connection between what I said and your account name.

Duh! You ALWAYS burn up their energy first! If their tongues aren't hanging out and they're gasping for air, they aren't ready to start thinking about sitting down. 50 minutes of running around for 10 minutes of Achievement 4f, and you're golden~! Stosh

Yes, but, there's a miraculous transformation of kids that happens on their 18th birthday! Of course, the ones that learned the skills of adulthood prior to that don't count. Neither do the kids of helicopter parents that spend 18 years more trying to get them out of their basement. Stosh

"we have parents willing to help, they just don't necessarily know how." That's an easy fix. The one who did it last year invites next year's volunteer, to coffee. The newbie takes notes and next year when he has a new newbie, he has his original notes and anything else he added to improve it. This continues on and on and the program never has to reinvent the wheel. Stosh

Obviously there are always emergencies when people can't do something at the last minute. That hassle is a lot easier than a whole passle of people expecting to show up, never made a commitment to it and of course, don't show up. Now you have a BIG problem. It should be, up front of course, announced that if they sign up, they are expected to show up. At least you know you have a workable contingent when you start, things change, adjust a bit. Renax127, so someone didn't show up. Well others stepped up and made it happen for the boys. Nothing in the signup program that says that can't be done when someone drops the ball. There will be a few who step up to fill in the gaps that didn't sign up but are still willing to help. If not enough people sign up for Pinewood Derby, wouldn't it be a better idea to tell the families up front there isn't going to be a Derby or wait until after everyone's built a car, then disappoint them. So I'm sitting there figuring I ought to sign up for something. Okay, Blue Gold table decorations. That's it. No one's going to call me every other week asking me to do something else, someone else has that covered. When Blue Gold rolls around, I walk in, decorate tables and I'm done. If my dad dies right before Blue Gold, I call the Blue/Gold Chairman and ask if he or one of his helpers can stop by and pick up the decorations and put them on the table, they are in a box all ready to go. A bit of an inconvenience, but still better than arm twisting all year up until the last minute. If anyone likes the way they are doing it, fine, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. But if you're burned out, this might be a start to look at another alternative to cut down on the hassles. Stosh

I've thought about the plastic stuff, but with scratching on cutting boards and plastic plates, I worry about getting them clean. It bummed me out when the mess kits went with the plastic cups, I used to hold the hole business over the fire to dry and sterilize but the cup was a problem. Stosh

Awww, what's wrong with the el cheapo one's from WalMart? That's all I ever use. I remember as a kid, I kinda lost things on a regular basis on campouts. It's a lot easier to tell mom I lost a WalMart el cheapo rather than losing a Teflon lined, stainless steel, copper bottomed mess kit. When I didn't lose them, they lasted me a good 5 years before they got so bent up they wouldn't fit back together no matter now much I hammered on them. Stosh

Put up a sign-up sheet at the beginning of the year or maybe Blue/Gold. Title: Campout #X Date: __________________ Chairman: ____________________________________ Phone #: Support for Chairman 1: ___________________________________ Phone #: Support for Chairman 2: ___________________________________ Phone #: Food Chairman: ____________________________________________ etc. Support for Food 1: _______________________________________ etc, Support for Food 2: _______________________________________ Meal Cleanup: etc. 2 helpers Camp safety Chairman: Campsite Reservation Chairman Activity Chairman: Etc. This process should apply to ALL activities for the year including next year's Blue/Gold banquet. You can also do this for each one of the Dens! Anything the Pack does gets a sheet! Post all such activities with sufficient personnel to do it properly, on the wall of the banquet hall and announce that sigh-up is first come, first served. BUT!!!!! if all the slots are not filled in before we leave, the activity will be cancelled for the year. We are no longer going to do any activities without the boys properly cared for. If no one, or not enough sign up, take the sheet, crumple it up and toss into the garbage. If people want their boys to have a program, they are expected to sign-up to help make it happen. Collect up all the sheets, contact each member on the filled sheets, and get their addresses, contact information. Put it into a activity booklet and mail to each person that has stepped up to help so they can mark their calendars and plan ahead. 1) It puts all responsibilities for the year on each person's shoulders. 2) Eliminates last minute run-arounds looking for volunteers. 3) Everyone knows up-front what is expected from them for the year and won't be hassled down the road to do more. 4) Everyone knows up-front what activities will be done and which ones are eliminated because of lack of support. Oh, no one signed up to do the Wolf den! So be it. We won't have wolves this year. Who said it's the CM's job to run around and beg for volunteers? I've seen this done in other organizations and once everyone figures out you really mean it, it works like a charm. Where's the summer campout going to be? Check with the chairman, he knows who is reservation chairman is and can get that info in just a couple of phone calls. What are they planning on doing? Contact the chairman, he knows who the activity chairman is. Better yet send the booklet out to ALL parents and even those phone calls will go away as well. Is this a harsh pill to swallow? Yep, the first year, but after that it goes like clockwork! Stosh

Welcome, lurk all you want, but it's better to jump in with questions and answers of your own. Don't worry about putting out stupid questions. I do it all the time. Stosh

Whoa! I'm on your side!!! You are definitely on the right course. I assumed you may have been getting flack from others on this issue. 50% of the SM's work is keeping the adults at bay and letting the boys grow as the program allows. Last resort, get parental permission slips from each of the boy's parents saying they can go without adults. I am unsure how that would work with the one 16 yo who is a guest of the activity. I get a bit nervous with boys driving themselves to activities and even a bit more nervous with boys driving other boys, too, but that's my hangup. Check with the council concerning insurance issues and if there are none, then let them have it. The last resort "compromise" would be, have the parents that are worried, drive the boys to the trail head, you meet them there and then stay in the parking lot, start a little campfire and sit and chat with the parents about boy-led leadership and the opportunities it opens for their boys. Maybe a bit of a snack and refreshments to share and if the boys have any trouble, you're only a mile away. EMS is probably a lot further away than that. Remind them that with cell phones, they are just as connected as if they were at any other school/church activity they might have been on. After they realize they had either a good time chatting with the SM and the goals of Scouting, or they wasted their afternoon for nothing. Seriously, if something did happen, what would the adults' presence make anyway? A well trained scout should be able to handle the situation just as well if not better than a non-trained parent. Stosh

The only reservation I would have would be: If you were dead sure, why would you be asking the forum for advice? If our comments don't hold any water, and you are sure these boys are up to it, then I'd say go for it. If you have reservations and are looking for support, that's a different story. From what you have laid out. I personally wouldn't have a problem with the boys going. The only thing I would be concerned about is: it sounds like fun and I'd miss out not going. Stosh

Comments like that convince me that there really are idiot-savants out there. However, I always write it idiot/savant. That way everyone can make up their own mind. Stosh

In the military if you do not have correct identification on the uniform, you are "out of uniform". Stosh