Stosh

What makes one think JASM is for Eagles? That patch is only one step further more useless as SPL in a one patrol troop! Just because one earns the rank of general in the Army doesn't mean that's retirement! I get so tired of RHIP that is taught in Scouting. Earning rank and achieving the top rank does not mean one is to sit back and rest on their laurels or worse yet, quit. It means the job is just starting. In my few years of serving as SM, I have never issued SPL, ASPL or JASM patches to any scout regardless of rank. Once I get to 4 patrols I'll start thinking about an SPL. Once a boy earns Eagle, he is given the choice of what position he wants to serve in. One of the best DC's I have ever seen was an Eagle. They make excellent NSP PL's, TG's and Instructors as well. They earned the rank, now put them in a position to use what they learned. If the 3-4 PL's want an experienced Eagle as an SPL, I would be open to them having what they need. I'm a firm believer in electing an SPL by vote of the PL's only. He is there to assist them. Why would the troop be voting on the position that doesn't affect them? Stosh

As UC I faced the same thing with one of my troops. If the adults aren't backing it, you're pretty much dead in the water. The adults all had their boys through the program and had done very little to recruit adult support, let alone new scouts. 5 ASM's an no one wanted to step up to SM and keep things going. It folded this past recartering and we were able to transfer all the boys to other troops in the area. The adults followed along and signed on as ASM's. They want to wear the uniform, but they don't want to do the work. The sad part of the whole thing is the Troop 10-15 years ago was a real powerhouse in the area. These people just basically sat back on their laurels and let it nosedive into the ground. I had even offered my services as SM and they turned me down. This was a good thing in that the troop I'm building now never would have happened if I had been trying to resurrect the older one nearby. Stosh

Those troops that rely on feeder pack cross-overs are going to someday be sorely disappointed. Just as soon as one has a DL that has a son who isn't into Boy Scouts, you can be assured of a void that year at the Troop level. I have seen it work a few times over the years. I had 7 Web 2 cross over and NOT A ONE ever showed up for a Boy Scout meeting. Recruiting that is limited to just feeder packs doesn't guarantee a successful Boy Scout Troop. There are a lot of boys that could benefit from Boy Scouts that didn't do the cubby thing. Sometimes they come in and don't have a lot of cub baggage that one has to overcome for the Boy Scout program. When was the last time a troop had an open house for more than just the feeder pack cubs? I have three potential feeder packs that I can draw from. But I can't afford to wait to see what they decide to do. I have to have open house events for the neighborhood. I publicize the troop in grocery stores, libraries and schools. I'm not going to sit back and wait for them to come waltzing in, I have to go find them. Stosh

How about self-respect, instead of self-esteem? Stosh

China's a pretty big place, could you be more specific? It's getting to the point where most stuff in America today is made in China. What kind of an omen does that bode? Stosh

This is why I don't use Scout Sign. I simply enforcing discipline over and over again without consequences is not as effective as the consequences. Scout Sign offers no consequences for rude and disruptive behavior. I always use their rude and disruptive behavior as a teaching moment. It only takes once or twice. At the end of the meeting, it is announced that there is no time left over for games and we need to move on to closing flags is far more effective than repeatedly throwing up Scout Sign. The boys will put two and two together and do whatever it takes to make the meeting move on so that they can have more game time. Robert's Rules of Order used to be the norm for meetings no matter where you were, government, business, church, civic groups, etc. We have replaced them with free-for-all approach which basically wastes a ton of time. The scout meetings that take an hour can be cut to 15 minutes if Rules of Order were applied. Courtesy and respect are "yesterday's" words in today's society. I really don't care how much time my boys waste in meetings and activities, but if they don't want to waste the time, there are tools to help them correct the problem. It was a long time ago that I realize if they don't mind missing out on games, why should I? Stosh

Sentinel I don't think I'm an Eagle basher, but I do put it into perspective. $2 for the badge which comes having completed a series of requirements. That is one thing, but one can go through the motions, get the badge and have zero development in the area of character and leadership development. Those are the above and beyond expectations which BSA prohibits, BUT the boy expects of himself anyway. Thus the value of the Eagle varies from one person to the next. One can point out examples of +/- values Eagles place on the rank all day long. Pointing out that some Eagles have placed very little "value" in the process isn't Eagle bashing, nor is it any fault of the program, it is simply the value of the rank placed on it by the scout himself. If one wants to find the culprit that bashes the rank, look at those who have reached that rank and it made no real impact on their life. Stosh

These are the kids that need to be reminded that there isn't any Trading Post where they can go to get a basket weaving, necker slide whittling, or wallet lacing projects in the area. They're going to be in a world of hurt. Stosh

There's nothing that says you can't sit in the audience when the boys are making their presentation/game instructions. "I got your back." sometimes means I'm there to make sure you are successful. If you aren't there, how are you going to do an AAR for the boy to help him improve next time? Stosh

"BUT, IMHO, having a CC and SM who will run interference for the scouts, and get the interfering adults out of the way is a VITAL (emphasis) key. I've see one unit fallign apart becasue the CC and SM are not keeping the parents and committee from interfering." That is EXACTLY what happened with my last troop. My CC moved on and the new CC threw me under the bus when confronted by a couple of the parents. Without the backing of the committee, the SM will eventually get hung out to dry. The SM needs 100% of his energy directed towards the boys. Without a wing-man (CC), the SM will eventually burn out trying to do double duty with both parents and boys. Stosh

We had an awkward process for the two packs in town and the two troops. The Cubs had their AOL ceremony at the Blue Gold. Then at the end they had the "crossover" ceremony. ALL the boys crossed over and either went to one of the two troops where they were presented a necker and book, or they simply went back and sat with their parents. Nothing like a public ceremony to embarrass the boys who were quitting Scouting. The flack we got was that the SM of the other troop presented neckers and book and our troop the PL that was welcoming the boy did the necker/book routine. Adults from our troop were not participant in the ceremony. We even had one parent come back over to our boys and give the necker/book back because they didn't want their boy associated with a troop where the adults wouldn't even participate in the ceremony. Obviously they missed the point. My ASM's comment was rather appropriate. "Well, we dodged that bullet." Boy-led, or some variation thereof is the goal most troops strive for, yet it is the most misunderstood concept for anyone coming out of the Cub, school or church backgrounds for youth of this age. If an adult isn't running everything, it can't be good for their little boy. Stosh

I agree. As a matter of fact, my Web I's earned AOL at the end of their first year and then they had a year of Web II's to have fun and get ready for Boy Scouts. To them AOL was the last requirement to fulfill and then they could have fun! None of my boys saw AOL as the end of Cubbing, it was just an award for the work done up to that point. Now that the "requirements" were done, focus could shift over to Boy Scouts and a whole year of getting ready for it, and in my case, starting on the TF requirements so that the first few months of Boy Scouts wouldn't be overwhelming. Stosh

We make too big of an issue of crossing-over. Great hoopla is made out of it. Yet with the hoopla around AOL it often is counter to cross-over. "You're done with scouting you can quit. What about the Boy Scout that shows up and he doesn't have an AOL patch on his shirt or even a shirt, or Religious knot, or anything else for that matter because he was never a Cub Scout? What does he see going on around him? All he's done is sign an application form and showed up. Is there a ceremony for him to get a necker and book? or is he to just go pick one up at the scout office when he buys a shirt and pants? When he sits around his first campfire, what can he contribute to the discussion? When I was doing the part of my WB ticket on Web -> Scouts transition, the boy's got their AOL at the Pack meeting following completion of their work. No big deal. Once they turned 10.5 years old, they could simply quit coming to den meetings and start going to troop meetings. No flair, no ceremony, just a smooth transition into the program. They were never told they were at the end of anything, there was no start, just a change of venue and life continued on. New kid with no scouting experience joins up? Well, he comes in and starts a process just like he did to find a troop he liked. He is not assigned a patrol, he has the opportunity to "visit" with each patrol and then upon mutual consent, simply hangs out with his new buddies. There is NO ceremony for him to point out that he didn't do Cub Scouts! I can see a lot of self-esteem building going on in Cub Scout bling acquisition, but if that process doesn't mature into self-respect building in Scouting, one ends up with the hoopla Eagle Scout problems mentioned in many threads. I find that when scouts come in with no Cub background, they tend to develop self-respect quicker because they don't have all that self-esteem seeking baggage to drag along. Stosh

I think the point is, just because a person fulfills the requirements for the Eagle Rank, it does not guarantee anything as to the outcome of that person's life. BSA goes to great lengths promoting the Eagle, but fails to fully understand that the rank is just that, the last rank available to the Boy Scout. It used to be First Class, but now with all the bells and whistles added, it has become an "Oooh, aaaah" rank that is supposed to mean "something" more. What that "something" is, is defined many different ways by many different people, mostly to self-impress themselves into thinking that "something" is something special. Maybe the Oooh-Aaah factor should be limited to what the individual scout defines for himself rather than everyone else running around adding Oooh-Aaahs to it. As a person who has been active in the outdoors for 59 years (camping, hunting, fishing, canoeing/kayaking, hiking, etc. etc.), 8 as a youth scout and 35 as an adult scouter (fully trained from Cub Scouts through Venturing, MS from UofScouting, WB) , I can assure you that I am not an Eagle Scout (2nd Class). Never thought it was important enough to go after. I have always felt the BSA program was more of a way for young men to develop character and leadership through their experience. I have disassociated the rank system from that and as this thread points out, there has always been such a disconnect whether people want to admit it or not. Stosh

For the really new guys, I would make it very, very simple. Opening flag? Attention! (Everyone stands for the flag ceremony) Post (or Retire) the colors! (Scout(s) with the flag(s) take them up front and put in stands or goes and gets them from the stand) Return to post! (Scouts who had flags go back with the rest of the boys or take the flags back to where they started) Pledge (opening) Oath (opening) Law (opening) Comments by the adults (closing) Dismissed! All of that will fit on a 3X5 notecard the "PL" can hold discretely in his hand. Compliment the leader for a job well done. If it gets too much more complicated than that, the boys will get confused. The second list of words is the Agenda for the meeting, that was put together at the last meeting, taking no more than 5 minutes to put together. 7:00 Flags 7:05 Readyman pin (Activity) PL introduces the boy who will lead the activity (with adult help if necessary) 7:30 Game PL introduces the boy who will lead the activity (with adult help if necessary) 7:55 Flags If there are 6-12 boys in the den, rotate the assignments. First you lead the game (stand in front explain the rules), then you lead the activity (need some preparation, but again stand in front and demonstrate the activity, Then the third time around you are the MC leader pulling it all together and helping the other two be successful with tasks like you had done in the previous two weeks. At the end of the meeting, the current PL hands the cards to the next PL and he and an adult take 5 minutes to put together next activities agenda and recruits a new boy for the game of his choice for next meeting. Remind the boy doing the game he will need to come ready with an activity next meeting. (any notes the boy wants to put on the card he can do that too.) No, the boys are not functioning as a PL in any sense of the word, but they are developing a standard routine that offers them the security of no surprises and a confidence in knowing what to do next. Each meeting becomes a familiar cycle of things that the boys can come to rely on (confidence builder). 90% of what I would want my Webelos cross-over to know/do when he comes into the group is a minimum level of confidence that comes with such routine. He can add to the process as he develops his own style of leadership in the Boy Scout years. The DL needs to only do one thing for the boy... tell him over and over again, "Go for it, I've got your back!" Stosh

Kit? What kit? We don't need no steekin' kit!

I guess I don't quite agree with "Monday morning quarterbacking", in as much as I would going back over the game film and see where one can make improvements based on what happened. I tend to run a lot of AAR's for the boy leadership in that such shared review can offer up a whole lot of different view as to what could be done to make sure next time runs smoother. Stosh

You are correct. Ideally that would have been the better option. I didn't think that 9 boys would show up, I was expecting about half that because the Pack wasn't really considering coming to the troop anyway. Once I realized the situation, it was either help my Scout or deal with the adults. My Scouts always come first! Not all is lost, however, there's a great teaching opportunity next week on how to recognize adult intrusions from well-meaning getting in the way on the one hand, to flat out sabotage on the other. Next week's leadership lesson is: "With all due respect, Mr. _____, that's my job, if I need help, will you be available later on?" The first lesson I teach my adults is not: "Don't do anything a boy can do." Instead I use: "Everything you do takes away an opportunity for a boy to develop leadership." Stosh

I have always taken the signal that hands in their pockets means they are volunteering for something. Works just as well for boys as it does for adults. Stosh

Of the six adults present were 2 parents. They weren't the problem. It was the den leadership that got in the way. The lone Scout has been in Boy Scouts for less than 6 months. As his #1 support person, I couldn't abandon him. My #1 priority is to support my boys and he needed help just with the fact that 9 boys showed up. I was really surprised by the almost bully tactic of the Web DL. He had no respect for the boy and basically walked all over is presentation with the table issue. The other leaders basically followed his lead, but not the parents, they were respectful and quiet. I had the Scouts parents there as they always are so I have two-deep, but I couldn't fathom the thought of having them escort the DL's out of the room and having to deal with that. That wasn't their job. In reality there is a lot of adult involvement on my part, but it is focused on protecting the boy on his first outing at teaching. Had 2 - 3 boys showed up, he would have fared better, but 9 was overwhelming, but he hung in there like a trooper and did a rather good job at it. Next Monday night will be time for an ARR on the evening and what is necessary in the event that another pack comes for a visit. Stosh

I am resurrecting an old troop and had one boy from a pack last spring come on board. He has a buddy that will be joining him in the next few weeks who wanted to finish out his AOL before crossing into Boy Scouts. That makes 2 boys and I need 5. We're a work in progress. There are two other packs that may come to visit that are nearby. As far as the boys were concerned they were ecstatic when they heard boy-led, but I think it went over the adults' heads without any consideration. They are kinda set on taking their boys out of the area to an established troop. With that adult attitude, I don't think the boys are going to get a chance to decide on their own. I had a great time with the boys. One or two were a bit squirrely, but nothing out of the ordinary. About half of them would do really well in a boy-led program, the rest would take some time, but not a major obstacle by any stretch of the imagination. The one boy that will be coming into the troop is very mature for his age as is my lone scout. I'm going to have an excellent base from which to work once we get our 5 boys. Stosh

As an update to the visit by the Webelos II to our newly forming troop, it is appropriate to give everyone an update on how it went. I got there plenty early, my Scout was a bit late. No problem, I introduced myself as the Webs started showing up and we sat around an 8' table. Eventually everyone was there and we were ready to go. 9 Webs and six adults showed up. I stood and gave Cub sign's up and they quieted down. They got a brief comment from me that I don't use sign's up, but when anyone stands to address the group, it is the same as sign's up. They caught on quickly. Then I said we were a boy-led program and so I would be turning over the evening's activity to Mr. ______ our current lone scout. and sat down. The Scout stood up, introduced himself and said this evening they would be learning how to make rope. Immediately one of the Web "leaders" stood up, interrupted him and said there wasn't enough room at the table and had two other adults grab a table, make half the scouts move and put the table next to the other one and helped the boys get a seat at the table. The Scout continued by having everyone pair up and we got up (after sitting maybe 2 minutes) from the table and moved away to an open part of the room where he handed out sticks to the boys and began pulling twine from the roll showing the boys how to get ready. Any adult that came over to "help out" I cheerfully invited them back to their chairs. However, that didn't keep them from telling the boys what to do from afar. No soccer mom had anything on these guys! I assisted the Scout with helping everyone tie a double half-hitch on their stick and make a piece of rope and finally whipping the ends. By the time we were done, the scowls on the adult faces were obvious to all. When the boys once again gathered at the tables, I suggested to my Scout to take his guests to the back of the room for refreshments. He escorted them back, but before he could begin pouring drinks for the boys, 2 adults had hijacked the process even before the boys got to the back of the room. I would have loved to have had the time to address the adults, but I was too busy assisting my Scout with his activity. Take away? I would love to have the boys, but the adults wore out their welcome right from the beginning. For those who say changing from adult-led to boy-led is difficult, I can assure you, starting out boy-led with no previous troop traditions is still a difficult process. By the way, the boys were totally into boy-led. However, once they get back to the den meeting, I'm sure their choices of troops to consider will be one less than before. I do know that I got at least one boy from the pack. His dad is the UC for the pack and is 100% boy-led for his son. His comments afterwards put him to the top of my list for new ASM for the troop as well. Like I said, if it wasn't for the adults/parents, Boy Scouts would be a lot of fun, especially for the boys. Oh, by the way, the boys were explicitly told to say thank you to me for the activity, to which I countered that the thanks goes to their Instructor, Mr. __________ who planned out everything for the evening. Only one boy thanked him, they all dutifully thanked me instead. Stosh

Kids are gone, 3 bedroom house. Our bedroom, her room and my room. All have doors on them. Stosh

Mr. Jones, Mr. Smith, and Mr. Doe are the boys. Mr. Jones, Sr. Mr. Smith, Sr. and Mr. Doe, Sr. are the dads. They all get greeted at every meeting with either a handshake or a salute when they arrive. Normally I tend to sit throughout the meeting, but if necessary, I stand and address Mr. _______ and ask permission to address the group. It is far more effective than "sign's up" which isn't used in my troops. Then I begin by thanking him and then addressing the group as Gentlemen. I never use the POR as part of their title. It is always Mr. Smith, not SPL Smith. I use it generically when I refer to the SPL as, "You will need to address that issue with your SPL or PL." Stosh

There were a couple of advantages to the program I ran. All the Web I boys had a chance to earn all the pins. With a weekly meeting, we had more than enough time to cover it all. The second year, we focused more on doing fun things, but still re-covered all the pins a few of the boys had missed out on. The boys all earned AOL at the den meetings, not pack meetings. They did get special recognition at the pack meeting as well. Once they had AOL the pressure was off and the boys could relax and have fun on outings, at activities, etc. After getting AOL, they could at any time after their 10 1/2 age limit, simply start going to the troop meetings an hour later. They were already in the routine of weekly meetings and was already well established. Some of the boys held off so they could participate in the Pinewood Derby, but even that wasn't much of a draw to keep them in the den time slot. By the way, because we were "redoing pins" the second year, I based them off the Tenderfoot requirements. I couldn't add to the Readyman pin's requirements the first time around, but I did the second time adding the Tenderfoot requirements. Because of this, all the boys "crossed-over" to Boy Scouts and had already "earned" their Tenderfoot. I worked closely with the SM of the troop to keep him up to speed and he had no problem accepting them as Tenderfoot as they came into the troop. We practiced SMC's and BOR's with the boys before they crossed-over and the adults of the troop were very pleased with the boys coming in and had no problem accepting them as Tenderfoot scouts. During that Web II transition year, as ASM, I knew what was going on in the troop and whenever they had a nice activity planned, we just jumped in on it and as a result, the Web II boys were functioning as a pseudo-patrol on those activities so it never was a disruption to the troop. The summer of Web II we had a major camping outing for the Web II boys where we went out to a deserted island and camped for the weekend. Well, it sounds more adventurous than it really was. It was a 20 minute canoe paddle out to an island near by, set up camp, dug latrines and did the whole 9 yards. We had a few scouts come along to help with the activity which comprised of father/Webs. It was really a great outing, but we caught flack from the troop in that the few Boy Scouts went back and complained that the Web II boys had steak, baked potatoes and corn-on-the-cob for dinner and the troop never did that!!! In the end, the process worked well for both the Cubs and Boys and as far as the "transition", there really wasn't much, because for 2 years the Cubs progressively melded into the troop seamlessly. Those boys stayed together as a patrol throughout their Boy Scout career and except for the one that moved away, all got go to Jamboree, Philmont, Sea Base and BWCA and finally Eagled. The boys still keep in touch. This occurred back in 1993-1995 when I took WB. Stosh