Stosh

When my boy quit scouting at the Star rank, he was totally surprised to find out that I kept on going. I took a hiatus for a while when my schedule prohibited it (college, ministry), but when I got back in, I stayed. 40+ years as a registered scout/scouter. My son was for only 8 years a part of that tenure, 5 in Cubs and 3 in Scouts. I've been an outdoors person my whole life, long before scouting and long after. Scouting just made it nicer to share with others. And who many Scouters out there can stay they were instrumental in starting 44 new units? I'm working on #44 now. Stosh

Each patrol reserves the right to choose whether or not they are going to compete in the camporee competitions. My younger boys always like to "practice" on their own during the competition times. If there are are 5 competitive activities they might only compete in one or two of them. The choice is theirs and they are not "put down" for choosing to opt out of any embarrassing situations. If they know they can't start a fire, then I give them the option to stay in the campsite and work on that skill without some judge looking over their shoulder evaluating them. I have them go through the whole process as if it were a competition and then when the awards are handed out, compare their scores to the patrols that get awards. If their numbers are competitive they have the option to opt in on the next competition when it rolls around. There is nothing worse than the boys doing their best and finding out they didn't even place in the ballpark. This way the practice time can be best spent as a learning opportunity, not a judgment. They may never be good a fire starting, but why submit oneself to that point being thrown back at them each time a camporee rolls around? The boys are there to learn and have a good time. Stosh

One thing that I remember from a person who lost everything in a fire is that they also "lose their identity". By this, everything that told them who they were and their value as a person was is now gone. All the photos, memorabilia, etc. no longer exist. Everyone is quick to jump in and help with the physical needs, but there are lasting emotional needs as well that need to be addressed. I would suggest the troop take up a collection to provide him with another round of scouting items that reassures him that he was and is a vital part of something important. That might be just as important, or maybe even more important than the 15th casserole showing up at the hotel door. Remember one can't always see all the scars..... Stosh

Welcome from someone a bit further south. We have the same weather here in WI. Stay warm! Stosh

Welcome to BSA politics. In spite of all the hassles that go on between adults, the final decision is made by the individual scout. If he's happy with his decision, then everything else is moot. If he's not, then the choices need to be again evaluated and another choice is allowed. This way, the boys stay satisfied and really that's all that counts. As a parent, maybe the only thing you can do to make a difference is to support your son get the most out of scouting. If one has to step back from any leadership roles, so be it. If that means digging in and working on a role, so be it. There are a lot of adults out there that have forgotten why the BSA program exists. It's for the boys, everything else is not relevant. Stosh

A scout is thrifty - so are they planning events that are too expensive for the boys to handle? 1 driver drives the van of boys the other drives the U-Haul. Kinda pricy, but then the boys have to learn to budget and BE thrifty and not expect extravagant outings and still retain the Thrifty part of the process. Stosh

Once the boy enrolls in Webelos and earns an award, the age is of no importance. However, once he turns the right age he can decide whether he wants to stay with Cubs or go on to Scouts. The award has nothing to do with it other than open up Scout enrollment before 11 years of age/5th grade and AOL. We faced the same thing when Cubs all earned AOL and had to wait until Blue/Gold to get the award even though some of them were over 11 years of age at that time. These additional requirements are not part of the BSA program, never have been and Packs/Troops that circumvent them are not following the program properly. Stosh

Why punish the scouts because their parents are uncooperative? There's nothing in BSA policy that says parents have to "volunteer" for anything. Get over it and figure out alternatives. If an activity involves a 2 hour drive away, either rent a van/trailer or find some place closer. The boys want to climb Mt. Everest, if the parents don't drive, then they can't go! Yeah, right. Part of leadership development is problem solving. Sounds like the adults are not teaching this principle very well, if at all. We have a problem, so we're going to whine and pout until someone comes along and helps out. Sorry, not my cup of tea. Problems come with every activity, solve them that's what leadership is all about. Stosh

Either drive or pay some other parent to drive their kid there. This should be factored into the cost of every activity. For many years I was SM and only had one ASM. The two of us handled everything for a 25 boy troop. Registration, food and gas was factored into every event. Parents who didn't want or couldn't afford the gas could drive and it wouldn't cost them anything as long as the car was full of kids and gear.

Hmmm... I'm kinda old school. Webelos gets awarded when it has been earned. Arrow of Light gets awarded when earned, go into Boy Scouts when they are AOL or 5th grade/11 years old, or when they want to. Packs that make up rules as they go along really cause me concern because I often wonder if it's just the tip of an even bigger iceberg of made-up rules. Now, recognition for receiving these awards can be at any time, but the rank is earned, end of discussion. If a boy wants to come back from Boy Scouts to receive his AOL, fine, it's his choice, otherwise just send him his awards. All my boys had AOL at the end of Web I year.... because they earned it. Web II was fun and worked on Tenderfoot requirements. They came into the BSA program as TF scouts. SM was concerned that these boys had been over exposed to BSA before they got there and would find it boring. As it turned out, they all Eagled and stayed with the troop until 18/HS graduation which ever came first. Stosh

eagledad, I guess I'll have to concede an adult vision of boy-led is an okay goal.

My YPT training for the youth is quite simple. If ANYONE makes you feel uncomfortable about anything, tell an adult. If it's another scout, tell the SM/ASM or any other adult leader. If it's one of them, tell your parents, if it's your parents tell a teacher or your pastor, if it's one of them tell the police, if it's the police, tell anyone else that will listen. Keep telling until someone does something about it! The only thing you do NOT do is keep silent! Stosh

We might be mincing words here, but a troop with an adult vision goal is not the same as a boy vision goal. Adult vision issues seem to lead to what Basement was referring to as SM ego driven and that can apply to a troop of any size. I will concede that an adult goal of boy-led is an exception to the rule, but those troops are far and few between. Perdidochas: The WORLD is not the same as US society. There are far more cultures in the world that have adults well before the US gets around to recognizing them. As a matter of fact most cultures do not have the "teen" adolescent years. The US culture/society doesn't allow arbitrarily determined "minors" to do a whole lot. Just try and remember, the youngest Congressional Medal of Honor awardee was 12 years old. Don't compare our myopic view of the world as "normal". Stosh

I've seen the same thing happened to small troops. Size of the troops has nothing to do with the SM's ego.

Eagledad, don't know where that flame came from. I'm the one saying one does not need to limit the sizes of units! One can have a small boy-run AND large boy-run troops in my book! So far the two points I have made is sometimes the facilities restricts the number of boys in a troop just because there just isn't enough room. The other is once one gets to a size that the SM can't handle (about 30) then one has to shift gears and start turning the unit over to really boy-run because it's too much for one person to handle. A SM that has to intimately know all the boys will never be able to handle a troop of 80 boys, but multiple boy-led patrols can. So what limits the troop? Room size, or adult control? The ego thingy comes into play when I see adults struggling with large troops because they can't control it and don't rely on their trained boys to pick up the slack. In reality for me, small troops are boy-led by adult decision, but larger troops need the boys to step up and take on boy-led dynamics just to keep things going beyond the scope of what the adults can handle. Otherwise there needs to be a huge cadre of adults keeping control over the larger troops. Boy-led comes in ALL sizes and the adults don't need to put arbitrary limits on the program for the boys to benefit from it. I just wonder if controlling adults put these limits on the size of troops just because they don't want to lose control. I don't know if it's my style of writing or how I phrase things, but you and I see things eye-to-eye more often than not. Stosh

I have a poly-wool in short sleeve. Very comfortable.

What confuses me is the mega troops are SM ego trips, yet Basement's smaller troop isn't. But HE took the bulls by the horn and with other adults rescued this poor pittance of a troop and built is by hand into what it is today? They have rules, regs and have the very best of the boys. Why do I hear adult ego running throughout the conversation? Where are the comments about how the boys are taking over and making it a boy-led program? The closest thing to boy-led might be in the program, but the words WE and OUR always crops up. I remember once being told that a pet-peeve is something others do that we don't like about ourselves. "The program is what ever the boys want it to be.....We shoot, canoe, hike, backpack, rappell, bike, swim, provide service to our community." Shouldn't it be THEY shoot, canoe, hike, backpack, etc.??? Now forums don't always give full indication of the meaning of words, but if I was UC I would be a bit concerned without further information. I left a "boy-led, patrol-method" troop that was the best in the council, just ask any of the adults running it. Stosh

I don't have to be Jewish to wish someone a Happy Hanukkah if that's what it takes to make them feel good. That's the purpose of the expression. There have been those that have smiled when I said Merry Christmas and then told me they were not Christian. I followed up with what they tell me Jewish or something else. If I recognize the religion I adapt the greeting and if they say they aren't religious, I still wish them a Happy Holiday and hope that Santa can still come to their house. No one says that Santa isn't welcomed. So for all the friends on the forum: "Happy whatever it takes to put a smile on your face and a feeling of peace in your heart." I'll accept any response from you including "Go to hell." if that what it takes to put a smile on your face and a feeling of peace in your heart. Stosh

We will enforce attendance, good riddance to the casual scouts, the ones that cherry pick events or camp only. We would not cherry pick boys. Hmm... Doesn't sound like you cherry pick the newbies, but down the road it looks like that might be the case????? Stosh

Good thing the rest of the committee is with you on that. I've never seen a troop over 50 that is properly boy-led and not rampant with adult-centric "fixes" to make that size sustainable. 8 troop scribes to give everyone their PoR, and silliness like that. It's simply an ego thing, and most of the time it's a racket from one mega fundraiser to the next for that troop RV with satellite TV and 6-burner range If the CC won't let it go, sock him with Baden-Powell: "The numbers in a Troop should preferably not exceed thirty two. I suggest this number because in training boys myself I have found that sixteen was about as many I could deal with - in getting at and bringing out the individual character in each. I allow for other people being twice as capable as myself and hence the total of thirty-two." (Aids to Scoutmastership) Maybe the CC thinks he is 6x better at this than BP, in which case he can make a 100-member troop; or maybe he thinks you're 6x better, in which case he ought to accept your judgement that 38 is enough. A good PL should be able to handle 6-8 without having to live with them 24/7. He should be able to give the SM an insight into the boy before any SMC. Of course that only works if the PL's are actually functional. With a functional corps of PL's and an effective SPL/ASPL team the troop could function quite well with a large number of boys. Like I mentioned a Pack of 110 boys and 15 adult DL's the Pack did very well. As you mentioned with a CC on an ego trip, maybe the SM's ego doesn't need to be big enough to think is importance is necessarily great enough to handle boys without having to know them all intimately. It's part of delegating responsibility and accountability to the PL's and let them do their magic. The boys may mature into leadership skills if the SM/ASM team isn't hovering over their shoulders needing to be involved with everything in the Patrols. 80 boys, 10 patrols, SM works with SPL/ASPL team to enhance the leadership of 10 PL's. Now, those boys the SM should know intimately! I for one don't think it's necessary to know every boy, but if I have a problem with one, the first question I ask is: "Who's your PL?" If I've looked at his right sleeve shirt first, I don't even have to ask the question. I think BP's limit to 30 boys is indicative of an adult's ability to handle that many individuals at any given time. Just ask any well trained professional teacher. They'll tell you that number is critical. However, if one has solid PL's that glass ceiling can be easily broken. Stosh

How do you take into account that the air under the cot can drop well below freezing, while a pad on the ground maintains a 32 degree temperature "warmed" by the frozen ground whose temperature remains a constant 32? This is why one builds snow domes, the snow actually works as an insulator against -32 degree temperatures and will maintain a 32 degrees inside. We had a troop from town out on a snow adventure where the temperature dropped to -43 degrees. The boys didn't want to come in because they would have gotten colder breaking camp and going to the lodge than staying in their snow domes at a constant 32 degrees. It has been shown that a snow cave with a plumber's candle (coffee can of wax with 3 wicks) will maintain a temperature inside in the mid 40's. I guess I never want to find out what -43 degree wind blowing beneath my cot all night feels like. Stosh By the way, the candle inside a snow dome is not recommended unless in survival mode!!!! Leeward ventilation is mandatory!

LOL, that's going to take a major hit on Lockheed, with just about as much effect as what Lockheed is doing to BSA. I'm with Scouter99 - never going to buy a Lockheed aircraft ever again and I'm taking them out of my will. So there, Scrooge! Merry Christmas! Stosh

St. Nicholas Day!!! (Dec. 6th) is when my stocking gets hung out and stays until the 12th day of Christmas (Jan. 5th) My whole month is a celebration! I cover them all! I did the bell ringing thingy for the Salvation Army and picked Dec. 6th to do it on. To keep track of our welcomes, it was Happy St. Nick Day going in and Merry Christmas going out. There were quite a few that thanked me for reminding them about St. Nick Day. I don't worry too much about it as long as I get greeted with something. No one should get ignored even if the greeting is not exactly what they wanted. Any greeting is better than being ignored. Stosh

Good thing the rest of the committee is with you on that. I've never seen a troop over 50 that is properly boy-led and not rampant with adult-centric "fixes" to make that size sustainable. 8 troop scribes to give everyone their PoR, and silliness like that. It's simply an ego thing, and most of the time it's a racket from one mega fundraiser to the next for that troop RV with satellite TV and 6-burner range If the CC won't let it go, sock him with Baden-Powell: "The numbers in a Troop should preferably not exceed thirty two. I suggest this number because in training boys myself I have found that sixteen was about as many I could deal with - in getting at and bringing out the individual character in each. I allow for other people being twice as capable as myself and hence the total of thirty-two." (Aids to Scoutmastership) Maybe the CC thinks he is 6x better at this than BP, in which case he can make a 100-member troop; or maybe he thinks you're 6x better, in which case he ought to accept your judgement that 38 is enough. That's what PL's are for. They keep track of that and make appropriate information passed on to SPL and SM. SMC's are your direct contact on the boys. A folder on each boy will give you an opportunity to update information to be reviewed before each SMC. The General of the Army doesn't know each Private personally, but he does know what his boys can do. BTW, during the Civil War each company of men counted 100 on the line. The First Sergeant (PL) knew each man by name and would do roll call from memory. It was his job to take care of the men. The Captain took care of the company. It's not out of the realm of possibilities to know your boys if one were to work at it a bit. I found that I could always find a solution if it were important enough to me. I guess I would find it difficult to "turn boys away", but with saying that, assimilation of new boys is vital to the Web->Scouting transition. Then keeping them to 18 is yet another issue that I focus on constantly. When my boy was in Cubs, the pack numbered 110 scouts. I'm sure the CM didn't know all the boys, but relied on his DL's to keep the program going. The SM that relies on his PL's will be afforded a larger troop than the SM that has to have his fingers in every issue. Stosh

Another recipe idea is to make all the dry ingredients for something like chocolate chip cookies. Then make a 3"-4" cardboard disk. Lay out a brown cloth, put disk on it and then a piece of plastic wrap. Then put the dry ingredients on, put in the rest of the recipe's wet ingredients for them to add later, and directions for baking. Pull up the cloth and tie with a ribbon. Should look like a big chocolate chip. Makes a nice gift for the chocolate chip cookie people. Stosh