Stosh

This is why for me the SPL is optional, and if used, is in a supporting role to the PL's. Instead of supporting the PL's, your SPL stepped in and messed with the authority and responsibility of the PL's. SPL's that feel they need to "lead" the troop, this dynamic is always present. For me, if the SPL went around to all the PL's and said he wasn't feeling up to snuff, but he'll be at his tent if needed, it would speak volumes of leadership on the part of the SPL. The message: "I'm still available to help if needed, let me know." To me this is the epitome of servant leadership. Stosh

Servant Leadership is not restricted to any Communist Manifesto. It falls into good Community Relations, Religious tenets and any other positive dynamics of good interaction between others. If taking care of the poor is a Communist dynamic, then every Christian, Jew or Muslim in America is a Commie. I don't think so. Stosh

For the Politically Correct out there, may I add, a Mom/Son kinda theme walks a thin line. What about the boys that may not have a mom or the Pack meeting falls on a Dad time and he won't budge. It creates some rather strong emotional response for the boy who doesn't fit the parameters of that Pack meeting. Therefore I would suggest having a Valentine theme that reaches out to whoever the boy feels gives him the emotional support in any relationship. Maybe it's an older brother or sister who he feels cares more than a parent, etc. Maybe it's Grandma or Grandpa who's always there for him. Too often Valentine's Day is over focused on romantic male/female themes and should be focused more on who cares for me the most and I want to recognize that with a card/party. Just a thought.... Stosh

This is the reason I run a different structure than that set up by BSA when it comes to the optional SPL position. I view the SPL/ASPL team as the #1 supporting personnel for the PL/APL team. They are there to facilitate, mentor, support the PL's and their leadership of their individual patrols. If the SPL can't make the activity, the ASPL steps up in that support role. The autonomy of the patrol is not dependent on an SPL because he answers to the PL's who are leading their patrol. If the SPL/ASPL team is absent from an event, the supporting role falls to another scout on the troop support team, i.e. scribe, QM, or whoever has expertise in the problem facing the PL at the time. If all else fails, it falls to the SM to assist the PL. On the other hand, the structure of most troop led programs have the SPL coordinating and directing the activity of the troop and when absent, the PL's, who have not had responsibility except UNDER the SPL, have to take over and scramble to make things work. Not a good plan. They have not been active leaders until a critical situation and then it's time to toss them under the bus. I like the idea that PL's have full authority and responsibility for their patrols. If they need assistance, they can turn to the PLC and request ideas from other PL's who may have faced that particular problem previously. The SPL is the final stop-gap and should be the most experienced scout with PL experience. His support is critical in helping the PL in trouble. To me the SPL is the liaison between the adults and the PL's. He attends the roundtables, collects up information on behalf of the PL's who are in actuality running the show for their patrols. The SPL brings back information to the PLC and presents to the PL's who make the final decision whether or not their patrol participates in any particular activity. If a PL is faced with only one boy in his patrol that wishes to attend an event, he returns to the PLC and finds out if there is another patrol going that could pick him up on their roster for that particular event. All of this is coordinated and worked out amongst PL's, not dictated by the SPL. He is a facilitator, not a director. Just my opinion, but the system seems to produce a lot more actual leaders (PL's) in a troop than just developing a strong SPL. To me the SPL is the Senior most PL who's #1 job is training good PL's and "not running the troop". Stosh

I make it VERY clear with all the boys in my troop that there is no "second chance" for bullying. Whereas some SM's cut the corner off the Totin' Chit. Not me, the whole card goes the first time. Same with bullying. It has no place if Scouting and if one wishes to pursue that course of action, they, too, have no place in Scouting. Up front, no exceptions, no excuses, no discussions. You're done. While that may sound harsh. I cut them off at the pass and have had very little if any problems with bullying in my troop(s). Stosh

The Oath and Law are intended to become part of the boy's entire life, not just his Scouting experience. If the boy is tokin' up it doesn't make a bit of difference whether it be at a scout event or his bedroom. A SMC to address the issue as an illegal activity is needed and if he doesn't get help, you will need to report it to the proper authorities. Otherwise, when the boy gets caught and hauled into court, they are going to put you on the hot-seat and question you about why you turned a blind eye. If the boy was bullying others, you would do something about it. If the boy was abusing others, you would do something about it. If he's stealing, you would do something about it. But if he tokes up, no big deal, just look the other way. Sorry, I don't buy that program as acceptable. It is not up to the scout leadership to determine that, that's a legal issue that needs to be and will eventually be addressed by the authorities. It just depends on whether or not YOU want to get caught up in the aiding/abetting net. Sorry, after 40 years of working with youth, I don't turn my back on any child that needs help and turning a blind eye is not helping this boy. And I have been in the youth business for 40 years and I'm still around because I don't turn a blind eye. YPT is there to protect the boy from himself as well as others. This all might sound kinda harsh, but if I care about the boy, I'll be the first to do something about it. I think it's written somewhere: "Help other people at all times...." If not, it should be. Stosh

If all he's waiting for, why does he have to do his EBOR through the first troop? Transfer and then do the EBOR. There's no justification to have to endure this crap. Stosh

What a scout does on his own time, putting money in his own personal account is none of BSA's business and the rules don't apply. This is a transaction between the boy shoveling and the homeowner. Stosh

And if one were to carry this debate any further it would need to move to the Politics/Issues area. Stosh

Qwazi brings up an interesting problem. When the crew and troop do a joint activity, the 18-20 year old ASM from the troop has adult status but the "youth" of the same age from the crew do not... and they don't "need" YPT yet they are interacting directly with the youth of the troop. What would be really interesting is if a "youth" from the crew is registered as an ASM. Do they go as an adult or as a youth???? Can a registered troop ASM bunk with the adults if he is also registered as a Crew youth? Stosh

My point was that each unit has to have it's own autonomy, your example emphasizes that! There is a troop and they do their own thing. There is a Crew and they do their own thing. On an occasional or even regular basis they can do the same thing together, but each unit decides on it's own when that happens. If the crew decides to do a canoe trip it is not automatically assumed the troop is invited and vice versa. Stosh

I wonder how many people get the idea that individual scout accounts are THEIR money? If I were to be wanting to go to Philmont, for example, I would think the proper focus on the fundraising would be MY responsibility, not a group effort that I help out to get money for me personally. I would still have my bank account and evaluate how an increase in income would be necessary to make sure I got the cost covered. I wonder how much ISA's basically negate any positive influence that the Personal Finance MB is trying to instill. As far as group fundraising is concerned, I'm a bit old-fashioned on that point. A group fundraiser and my participation in it emphasizes my servant leadership to take care of my buddies in the troop who are struggling to cover the costs of the trip. If I need money, I shovel walks and mow lawns. If the troop needs money, I put on an apron and serve at the chili dinner. Just because BSA says one cannot do a "service project" for any BSA entity, doesn't mean I buy into the program on that point. I serve so that others benefit both within and outside the troop. Stosh

I have never seen the benefit of a Crew connected to a Troop. There will be no unit autonomy for either entity. It looks like a contrived setup because it is. Stosh

One mom who happens to be CM said "I am not fundraising so Johnny scout who didn't sell any popcorn can go to camp or enjoy scouting free". Now there's a lesson in parental support for team development and leadership. Such selfishness has no place in Scouting. Stosh

What's up with the discussion on individual Scout accounts repeated disappearance? No other topic is "disappearing" and this one has gone twice now. That is not a system problem, someone/something is causing it and the forum has a right to know what is going on. If it's a forbidden topic, fine, let everyone know and move on. If not, why is it disappearing, let everyone know and lets move on. Stosh

It's kinda annoying to have to revive this topic over and over again. If it happens again, I'll be the first to start posting on the system's forum to make sure it is monitored as to why it is disappearing. I'm thinking the topic is of high importance for all units to consider, one way or the other. But it should be carefully evaluated for each unit's situation. Stosh

Okay, I'm sitting here kinda conflicted. 1) we put our kids through school so that when they graduate they have a basic understanding of knowledge so they can function properly in society. Well, that's the theory at least. Do we push or encourage them to get a HS diploma? Sure we push. 2) We put our kids through religious traiing so that when they reach adulthood, whatever that may be in their faith, so they can function properly in the religious sphere they have chosen. Do we push or encourage that? Sure we push. Those are basic life developments young people all go through. But when it comes to extra curricular activities do we operate any differently? Soccer Dad's? Stage Mothers? etc. Okay, some go overboard, but those kids seem to do better than those that are just "encouraged". So here's where the dilemma fits into my consternation. Is scouting a program for development processes so they can function properly in society or some sort of enjoyable extra curricular activity? I understand those that view it as an extra curricular activity, but I tend to view it more as a character/leadership development program so I tend to push more than just encourage. I see the benefits of BSA as more than just a "fun" time. From the original thread I would view this boy more as a user of the program rather than a participant. "Having fun" is one thing and "having fun" with his buddies is something altogether different. As an individual user, his focus is totally only on what is he getting out of the program and doesn't care a whole lot whether anyone else around him is, too. I see this in a lot of today's youth. The isolation created by this thought process will cripple any team/group development the boy needs. His self-esteem may be intact, but eventually when he hasn't learned relationship development, his self-respect will take a major nose-dive down the road. I have seen such "fun" isolation go so far as such people becoming so good at it they cannot get away from their x-Box and have dropped completely out of the possibility of functioning in any societal setting. I guess when all is said and done and I am called to lead by example, a little pushing (for their own good) isn't such a bad idea when it comes to getting the boy off his ego/individualism set point. Not many kids want to go to school, but they have to by law and some of that process does sink in along the way, but only because adults are pushing. I think encouraging is excellent, I'm thinking pushing isn't a negative for me either. I don't see BSA as an extra curricular activity either. Out of school, religion, and Scouting, leadership/character development is best and routinely served in Scouting. Stosh

What has me scratching my head is that the topic is showing as unread, yet when I go into the directory, everything is showing as having been read. I'm thinking the old topic is still showing as unread before it disappeared. While I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist: Why would this topic, and nothing else, keep disappearing? Stosh

Welcome, Stosh

I use email for any pertinent information from the unit and that email goes to the parent. Even though I promote a boy-led program, the email connection is for information passing only and it gives the parents a connection with me if they have questions. Stosh

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you have to fill out a new application if you are just moving from one position in unit to another. It is only necessary if you are moving from unit to unit. Stosh

IN THE UNIT, this policy is okay, but in a court of law that doesn't recognize BSA policy in the same way, it could be a problem. A 20 year old male Venturer doing something inappropriate to a 14 year old female in the Crew may not fall under VYPT or YPT BSA "rules", but when it hits the fan, the adult is going to have a tough row to hoe in a court of law, and the BSA is going to be wiping a lot of egg off it's face. By the way, I fully understand the hypocrisy of the BSA policy, and I understand the dynamics of the law outside of the scope of BSA. That's the problem, not trying to waste a lot of breath explaining it to perplexed youth. The young adults are scratching their heads because they see the hypocrisy, too and it doesn't make any more sense to them than it does to me. I ran a Venture Crew for 15 years and as soon as any Crew member turned 18, they had to take YPT! End of discussion in my Crew. I don't care what they were registered as, they took the training. It would be no different than if I had other adults that were working directly related to BSA members and weren't registered at all in any position. Those adults (drivers) that were helping out were all reminded by me that all my scouts were trained to report any incident they felt uncomfortable in to any other adult that will listen. That has always been my YPT in a nutshell speech that all non-YPT trained adults get from me. And yes, the grey area of 18-21 Venturing falls smack in the middle of that discussion. Stosh

And how does the VYPT apply to the Venturers that are 18+ years old? Do they need to take it because they are adults and they are hanging out with minors? Once one starts out with double-standards, it makes for quite a quagmire down the road. Stosh

If some lady shows up every week to help out at a den meeting and she has a spatula in one hand and a hot-pad with a sheet of chocolate chip cookies right out of the oven in the other, how many boys are going to even notice what's she's wearing? It's not what you are wearing that is important, it's what you do! For whatever reason, can uniforms be modified? How about the disabled scout who has lost a leg in an accident. Do the cuffs on his pants have to be the same length? And what does he do with his other scout sock? If Seik scout is required to wear a turban for religious reasons, how does that "fit in" with his uniform and does he have to remove it for the flag ceremonies? 12th Law - honor your religion. If that means the uniform is adjusted to do that, so be it. Sometimes common sense is a really good thing to consider. Stosh

Bummer, it was a good thread, unless duckfoot's article was bogus in the first place, but I don't think it was. Stosh