Stosh

Couple of typos SM delegates to SPL and SPL delegates to PL. Sorry, no edit feature.

Good to see you finally got it figured out! You are correct in that the BSA defines it's management structure top down as responsibilities. The rub comes when responsibility is delegated down a level and no authority goes with it. This is the #1 problem with the management style. IF, and it's a big IF, no authority goes with it, the "power" remains at the top of the structure, but if authority is allowed to go with responsibility, then the "power" reverses the structure. If the SM says we're going to summer camp this year, and delegates responsibility to the SM to get it lined up, and the SM delegates responsibility to the PL's to get his boys in order, you have a top-down structure of management. But what if the older boys really don't want to go to summer camp, but would prefer doing a high adventure activity instead. They have no authority to make that change and come summer camp time, they will disappear from the scene and the SM will need to implement some kind of rules and regulations, threatening advancement, Scout Spirit, etc. to force the boys to comply with his authority over the whole program. In my estimation, this is why top-down, management structures don't work and I constantly hear on this form the results of trying to do it that way. There is nothing idealistic about it, the system has it's problems and will continue to produce the same results over and over again. So let's flip the structure upside down and give authority to the boys to lead themselves. Most of the boys want to go to summer camp, it's new, it's exciting and they've waited a whole year to get there again. However, the older boys are bored stiff. They want another adventure. So what are they to do? They turn to the SPL for HELP (servant leadership), and he agrees, yes they have a point, and it's a problem that needs to be resolved (problem solving skills). He's at a loss, so he turns to the SM for HELP (more servant leadership) and they all work together to assist the PL of the older boys to get them to the HA activity and get the younger boys to summer camp. These are the dynamics I work at developing in the troops I work with. The BSA can put out the SM down to PL structure out there and try it's best to work within the confines of managerial styles, but it's far easier to develop servant leadership which in a lot of cases is easy for the boys to understand and pick up on. And I have been using this approach for 30+ years and don't seem to face the problems that many on this forum seem to raise on a regular basis. I'm not saying this is better, but it is a far easier approach to the patrol-method with the boy-led involvement, than trying to teach the fine points necessary in a management style organization. With many years of experience and a lot of training, there are troops out there that have figured out how the management style, and do quite well. I just don't see them in the majority of problem free troops. As a basically lazy person, I find training the boys in servant leadership rather than task management, a far easier process. Stosh

Butt Ugly? Just guessing, don't know the guy. Stosh

My former troop had 6' closet rods with the traditional hook in the end. The boys could decorate them any way they wanted. The PL carried the patrol flag on his staff. Most of the boys followed the suggestions of the early BSA literature for measurements and other useful uses. Stosh

When I was in the ministry, the worst thing I ever had to do were weddings. Nobody was happy with anything. About the only thing that was the same was the bride ended up crying at the rehearsal. Since then I have always viewed ECOH's in the same category. If at all possible stay as far away as possible. I now sit in the audience and come forward only when asked. Stosh

Or maybe they just live their faith and ignore the politics. Stosh

Buy a boat. Then Shanghai a crew. Stosh

Kinda have to decide whether this ceremony is going to be a scout event or a family event. Generally most ECOH's are just free-for-alls. Stosh

Main course: Standard stew, but use apple cider instead of water/broth (Dutch oven). Dessert: Chocolate Chip Cookie Cheese Cake (done in a Dutch oven). Beverage: Hot-hot chocolate (with a dash of cayenne pepper). Stosh

Conservatve church "scout" like programs have been around for years. Just one more to add to the pile. Stosh

In my former troop, the SM did the whole ceremony. In my troop, I never left the audience except when the boys presented me with their mentor pins. The only time an adult went forward was when they were invited, i.e. parents, mentors, etc. Stosh

BSA needs to address it's hypocrisy. On the one hand they promote Good Turns which means it only counts if one doesn't take any credit/reward for it, then in the same breath turns around and expects them to credit their service hours. No wonder we have a ton of questions revolving around this issue. Stosh

You're probably never get the boys to sleep in a tent without floor and screen door. I really liked those tents. I would think they would be easy enough to be made. There're really not all that much to them. Stosh

For me the line got fuzzy when "definitions" started creeping in with the "getting credit" for something issue. Do parents pay for chores the boys are expected to do as part of being in a family? In some cases with some parents yes. That way they have a way of motivating their kids without them having to feel part/connection to any family/community. Even then, the values taught me over the years were never in black and white. Yes, as a kid I shoveled the walk in the winter and didn't get paid for it UNLESS it was for a neighbor, and then if that neighbor was elderly, then no. They usually paid in cookies anyway. Up until just recently my elderly neighbor's son would shovel the walk, but I always was available first and would always shovel access to the house in case of emergency until her son could get there to do it all. These service project hours have always concerned me because of the message they give to the boys. It would seem that everyone is out to do the minimum just to get credit and at the same time, get by. Doing a good turn daily usually means holding the door for someone, once, and then you are good to go until tomorrow. But then again, you will hear it from the parents first that expecting little Johnny to go out and clean ditches for 6 hours is really a Good Turn. Someone needed help, it may or may not be an emergency. Is helping another scout with his Eagle project a good turn or service hours? If we spent more time helping out and less time figuring out whether we get credit for it, we'd be better off. Stosh

It never surprises me what comes out of California anymore. And the operative word here is "MAY" in the title. Nothing like making more press than what gets printed. Stosh

Let me pick up at where I think you might be going with this. Yes, leadership can be completely kept out of the equation if the process is purely managerial. The SM tells the SPL to make sure everyone's area has enough water. He defines the task that needs to be done. Okay, the SPL tells the PL's to make sure their patrol has water. The PL then tells someone in his patrol to go and get the water jug filled. The boy singled out for the task, begrudgingly picks up the jug and hikes off to the water source. The task gets done, purely managing a task to be done. But the human element in the process is simply not there and the young boy learns that when he gets older things will be better because he will be able to tell younger boys what they have to do. On the other hand, the SM makes the comment that he hopes everyone has water available. No directive, just a comment. The SPL picks up on it and to ease the SM's concern (helps him out) goes to each PL and asks if everyone has water. The PL, concerned that this might be a problem, asks his patrol if they have enough water, and one of the boys says, the jug is almost empty, but he'll (take the lead) on getting the boys together and they'll go get the water jug filled. Or one better, one of the boys notices the jug is empty and out of concern for his buddies just up and gets the jug filled. That's the ultimate servant leader. There are times when tasks are identified out of a concern for others and a comment along those lines may be made, but the servant leader willingly steps up to meet a need. Otherwise, a good servant leader probably won't even wait for any suggestions, but is constantly looking out for others and simply knocks out the tasks without any delegation necessary. I have seen the benefits of this non-managerial approach taken by a few boys over the years. At Centennial Jambo we had one boy that didn't show up for the registration, but sent his money in. He didn't show up for the shakedown and I was concerned he might be a problem. But once he got there if ANYONE needed help he was there. A single boy needed to go to the latrine and his buddy wasn't around, but this boy would always go with anyone needing a buddy. This went on with every task at camp, and this boy not only helped his patrol but I saw him helping out other patrols as needed. Near the end of the week the boy twisted his ankle and the members of the troop all pitched in to make sure he got to where he needed to go, they carried him. We had a long hike back to the bus when it came time to leave, they packed him completely up and carried him and his gear to the bus. And NO ADULT or TROOP/PATROL leader even suggested they give him a hand. Lead by example! I was totally amazed with this kid and even more amazed by the influence (leadership) he was able to provide and the response he got from such leadership. By the way, he was one of the youngest boys in the contingent. What I think Kudu is always emphasizing (he can correct me if I'm wrong) is that top down management can leave a wake of hard feelings and promote resistance from those who get delegated upon. But if the boys see the "higher ups" as people they can look to to help them, they will follow naturally and even eagerly. Those boys that have figured out how this works are what he is calling natural leaders and I think for the most part we do not train/promote this kind of leadership, but rely more on the managerial style which tends to be less effective. Stosh

Ain't technology a beautiful thing! Stosh

When the boys decided to use walking staves as part of their uniform, they settled on one style and I priced it out at the local hardware store. It came to $6 which I told the boys upfront. They said they wanted to do that and so I went, got them, put them together and gave them out to the boys when they showed up with $6. No surprises to anyone, everything was done upfront and then they could make their decision. Stosh

Well said! Stosh

Servant Leadership really works! You and a ton of other scouts have found that out. We had a troop in our district that had a dozen or so really young scouts and just one older boy. Of course they made him the SPL. After a couple of camporees of watching the little guys follow him around as if they were all tied to him, he picked up the nickname "Mother Hen". I am sure none of those young scouts ever gave him grief, nor said no to any request the SPL may have asked. Management style scouts are the ones complaining about getting no respect and have to deal with repetitive no's when telling others to do something. As far as the "ladder of patches" goes, the PL runs his patrol (patrol-method) everyone else supports him in that process and I don't care if it's an SM, SPL, TG, QM or what,... whatever it takes to make the PL successful. That's where the rubber meets the road when it comes to the patrol members. Hypothetically... a PL/APL team for some reason can't be at an event, leaving 6 boys without a leader. They get together and decide to ask the ASPL if he can be the PL for the event. Sure, why not. He's the boy they have had experience with and has been helpful in the past and would be an easy choice to start asking for help. Help, help and help, all related to Servant Leadership. Who, in their right mind, would ever ask the scout with a demanding management style scout to be their temporary PL? Stosh

" (since you have probably quit growing.) " Fat chance! all my clothes seem to shrink just hanging in the closet. Stosh

Kudu wrote: "Because in the Troop Method, Patrol Leaders are the fifth (5th) tier in leadership talent (JASM->SPL->ASPL->TG->TI->PL)." I often run into others that support such a structure which is not as Kudu says, "leadership talent". What you have here is a management organizational chart of delegation. It has nothing to do with leadership. In management, the accomplishing of a task is the goal and top down delegation gets it done. This all can happen in a leadership vacuum. Basically the SM sets forth the task, delegates down to where the PL gets "stuck" with the ultimate responsibility of getting it done. In my troop I simply flip this management organization chart up-side-down and have the PL at the top. He is the "highest" ranking officer in the troop. He knows what is going on with his boys and they FOLLOW him because he's doing what is best for the patrol. If he needs help or advice, he has the SPL to go to. If the SPL isn't going to help him, he's not going to FOLLOW him anywhere. If the others in the troop are of no help, the PL is on his own and will FOLLOW no one. He is only going to go to someone that can help him and if he finds that person, he'll FOLLOW him. That is leadership, not management and it is all personality based, NOT task based. The task will get done by any and all who know their leader has their back and aren't going to get jerked around by some inept manager. Leadership training starts and ends with. "Do what it takes to help your boys. If you do, they'll follow you anywhere!" Stosh

If they state they have no intention of following the 12th Law, how is that any different than the scout that says he has no intention of following any of the other ones either. Such "in your face" declarations such as this have no place in Scouting. Stosh

UC's wear silver, not the color of the unit the work with. Stosh

I know that, but I really don't think it's much different today than it is today. It might take a bit more planning to find campsites, but wilderness camping is still in full swing in our area. As a matter of fact much of the sandbar camping in the area is getting pretty much filled up, just like the parks. We have national wildlife refuges in the area that still can find nice sites and it's all free. With a map/compass one can bury themselves deep into the woods and with modern equipment, like back pack stoves or small wood fires, no one even knows you're there. My last outing, last fall, I was on a backwater river and had plenty of space on the sandbar to accommodate a full patrol easily. With satellite images available, one can find a clearing in just about any woods to camp the night. If national forest/preserves, no need to hunt up permission, on private land, there's a lot of rural people out there that still support scouting. My first Boy Scout activity was to hike 5 miles out of town to some farmer's woods, make a meal and hike back. I'm not seeing that as being impossible today. Maybe if I had a troop situated in downtown NY I might have to drive out of town to start, but I'm sure there are those in the more rural areas that would have some woods available to scouts. Check with the councils/districts in the target area you are thinking about. Stosh